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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-10 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #124
135. Maybe tolerance isn't rational to them.
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  -Does drug/alcohhol rehab work? I can't tell you how many people I've heard of raccoon  Oct-26-10 11:13 AM   #0 
  - I know plenty  benddem   Oct-26-10 11:15 AM   #1 
  - And I'm one of them. But then, I wanted to quit and to get my life back.  SharonAnn   Oct-26-10 11:23 AM   #8 
  - That is the most important part of recovery....  WCGreen   Oct-26-10 02:22 PM   #45 
     - +4  dave29   Oct-26-10 04:23 PM   #79 
  - I recovered too, because I wanted it. It was a year long program. nt  pgodbold   Oct-26-10 04:22 PM   #78 
  - Someone I love went through court ordered rehab...  Tikki   Oct-26-10 07:33 PM   #152 
  - I think the REASON you go to drug/alcohol rehab is the key  Horse with no Name   Oct-26-10 11:17 AM   #2 
  - About 4 years ago or so I decided I didn't want to drink anymore  madokie   Oct-26-10 03:43 PM   #63 
     - Same here.  Sequoia   Oct-26-10 06:40 PM   #129 
  - My mother went through FIVE times.  cliffordu   Oct-26-10 11:18 AM   #3 
  - I fucking HATE AA. Can't stand it. Makes me want to drink.  Fuzz   Oct-26-10 11:55 AM   #19 
  - Then go drink.  cliffordu   Oct-26-10 03:58 PM   #71 
  - Because the 12 steps or drinking: those are the ONLY two options.  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 05:51 PM   #104 
     - LOL  Taverner   Oct-26-10 06:10 PM   #121 
  - Try rational recovery  Taverner   Oct-26-10 06:09 PM   #120 
  - "AA is critical" - maybe for you.  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 11:57 AM   #22 
  - There's a wrench for every nut out there.  cliffordu   Oct-26-10 03:59 PM   #72 
     - FYI, I've been sober for a very, very, very, very long time.  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 05:52 PM   #107 
        - But you're not "really" sober because you're not in AA.  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 06:11 PM   #122 
           - Some of the history is very interesting...  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 06:13 PM   #123 
              - I'm amazed how the conclusions 2 rich white dudes drew about themselves in the 30s  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 06:32 PM   #128 
              - Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-26-10 06:56 PM   #136 
                 - You know fuck all about me, dude.  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 07:37 PM   #154 
              - also connections to intelligence community.  Hannah Bell   Oct-26-10 07:37 PM   #155 
  - AA is a religious program.  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 11:59 AM   #23 
  - Spiritual, perhaps -- religious, no way  dalaigh lllama   Oct-26-10 01:04 PM   #36 
  - Because many of them engage in pretzel-style semantic gymnastics to get around "God AYUH"  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 01:16 PM   #38 
  - There are several secular alternatives.  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 02:13 PM   #40 
     - I do. And my personal experience mirrors exactly what you say here.  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 02:18 PM   #41 
     - If you took the word god out of all of the steps and substituted another word that  county worker   Oct-26-10 04:27 PM   #82 
        - As an acronym for "god", agnostics I know use  cliffordu   Oct-26-10 05:33 PM   #94 
           - Yeah, you can use a doorknob, or a tree, or the universe, or do other semantic gymnastics  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 05:50 PM   #103 
              - Oh, and I love how they act like overt atheists are tolerated for long.  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 06:04 PM   #116 
                 - You will "come to believe"  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 06:06 PM   #118 
     - i wish there would have been a secular program here.But there wasn't  w8liftinglady   Oct-26-10 04:26 PM   #81 
     - 10 months is great!  cliffordu   Oct-26-10 05:36 PM   #96 
     - can you give me the name of some?I'm curious to see...  w8liftinglady   Oct-26-10 04:53 PM   #90 
     - I'm using SMART Recovery  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 05:51 PM   #105 
     - Miss Kitty, like you I don't care for the AA format and its religiosity. And kudos to you for  catzies   Oct-26-10 06:32 PM   #127 
        - Thank you!  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 06:41 PM   #130 
        - "I had no idea there were secular alternatives to AA out there." - EXACTLY.  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 07:13 PM   #145 
     - These guys have more of a support group style, but no 12 steps or HP  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 05:54 PM   #108 
     - It's a guilt trip to you.  proteus_lives   Oct-26-10 06:52 PM   #133 
        - So AA should stop acting like it's the ONLY way, don't you think? eom  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 06:54 PM   #134 
           - I've never been to a meeting where they say that.  proteus_lives   Oct-26-10 06:56 PM   #137 
              - I heard it plenty. In many different forms.  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 07:03 PM   #140 
              - I would too.  proteus_lives   Oct-26-10 07:21 PM   #147 
                 - That's exactly what I did.  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 07:23 PM   #149 
              - I heard it, and variations of it, all the time.  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 07:34 PM   #153 
  - I'm not superstitious so "spiritual not religious" is semantic hairsplitting  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 01:38 PM   #39 
     - Please explain. Which of the steps is religious dogma?  county worker   Oct-26-10 02:25 PM   #46 
        - Look, I'm not playing this game.  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 02:46 PM   #47 
        - I just wanted your opinion. It's not a game.  county worker   Oct-26-10 02:55 PM   #50 
        - Good for you.  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 03:04 PM   #52 
           - I don't agree with being forced either because unless it is your decision  county worker   Oct-26-10 03:53 PM   #68 
        - You're supposed to be overcome at the vision of the steps, like you've never read them before.  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 03:51 PM   #67 
        - You ARE playing this game.  cliffordu   Oct-26-10 04:01 PM   #73 
           - I am not lying. Like I said, just giving my own observations.  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 05:41 PM   #99 
        - She didn't use the word "dogma", but if you can't get how meetings with the Lord's Prayer  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 03:50 PM   #66 
           - I don't think court mandating AA attendance is a good idea.  county worker   Oct-26-10 04:21 PM   #77 
              - neither do I.  w8liftinglady   Oct-26-10 04:44 PM   #87 
  - It worked for my brother.  lumberjack_jeff   Oct-26-10 04:57 PM   #91 
  - AA is religious hokum. nt  Codeine   Oct-26-10 12:20 PM   #33 
  - Congrats to your mother! I know many who  CBR   Oct-26-10 01:07 PM   #37 
     - AA acts like it's the ONLY thing that works  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 02:19 PM   #42 
        - That's where I have a big problem with it, too.  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 02:22 PM   #44 
           - It's a cult. They deny it vigorously but it has all the hallmarks of a cult.  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 02:52 PM   #49 
              - Oddly enough, I got some junk mail from "Narconon" not that long ago  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 03:47 PM   #64 
                 - Uh....  cliffordu   Oct-26-10 05:37 PM   #98 
                    - Really? "Complete Bullshit"?  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 05:43 PM   #100 
                    - Not being involved in Scientology, I assumed you were sniveling about this:  cliffordu   Oct-26-10 05:51 PM   #106 
                       - I was talking about a well publicized lawsuit in California  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 05:57 PM   #111 
                          - that's right - Narcanon == Scientlology, but has never been associated with NA or  cliffordu   Oct-26-10 06:02 PM   #115 
                             - "please read for a change" - take your own advice.  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 06:05 PM   #117 
                    - Why so hostile, cliff? What happened to easy does it and live and let live? eom  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 05:43 PM   #101 
                       - Hmmm. Interesting....  cliffordu   Oct-26-10 05:48 PM   #102 
                          - Ah yes. Ye olde "works if you work it" chestnut.  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 05:54 PM   #109 
                          - Didn't take long, did it?  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 06:00 PM   #113 
                          - Yeah, it's been a real disadvantage to me to spend the last 10 years sober without having  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 05:59 PM   #112 
                             - Glad you found a way to stay sober.  cliffordu   Oct-26-10 06:19 PM   #124 
                                - Maybe tolerance isn't rational to them.  proteus_lives   Oct-26-10 06:55 PM   #135 
                                - I'm thinking you're on to something.....  cliffordu   Oct-26-10 06:57 PM   #138 
                                - Or, maybe we can just make up shit that sounds good and fits on a bumper sticker.  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 07:04 PM   #141 
                                   - Your complete contempt for the program and the people in it reeks.  cliffordu   Oct-26-10 07:07 PM   #143 
                                      - Now, you're hallucinating. And you're not providing links, because you know it's not there.  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 07:21 PM   #146 
                                         - ....Be careful...Just wait till your DAD gets home....  cliffordu   Oct-26-10 08:13 PM   #157 
                                            - My dad's been dead for 15 years, but thanks.  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 08:33 PM   #158 
                                - Maybe if you could take a break from flinging insults  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 07:01 PM   #139 
                                   - Apparently I don't have to, having touched a nerve in your  cliffordu   Oct-26-10 07:08 PM   #144 
                                      - Can't take a break from the insults? Apparently not.  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 07:22 PM   #148 
  - Yes it does.  Le Taz Hot   Oct-26-10 11:19 AM   #4 
  - It is non-falsifiable  AngryAmish   Oct-26-10 12:03 PM   #28 
  - It works sometimes.  Kurt_and_Hunter   Oct-26-10 11:20 AM   #5 
  - Alcoholism is a terrible disease,  elleng   Oct-26-10 11:20 AM   #6 
  - very well said  KurtNYC   Oct-26-10 04:25 PM   #80 
  - It works for some and doesn't for others  RockaFowler   Oct-26-10 11:20 AM   #7 
  - I have a friend who was a former bar bouncer.  Initech   Oct-26-10 11:23 AM   #9 
  - Only works if you really want to change. n/t  cdsilv   Oct-26-10 11:34 AM   #10 
  - True but for every one that does, there's 100,000 that don't.  Initech   Oct-26-10 12:14 PM   #31 
  - Of course if he went to AA meetings he'd say the opposite.  cliffordu   Oct-26-10 11:36 AM   #11 
  - Or, maybe he'd say that the success rate for 12 step programs is roughly equivalent  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 11:52 AM   #16 
     - The vast majority of us don't make it at all  cliffordu   Oct-26-10 12:00 PM   #25 
        - That is true. The rates are bad no matter how you slice it.  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 12:05 PM   #29 
        - That all-or-nothing mentality worsens relapses  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 03:00 PM   #51 
           - You and I have been here before.  cliffordu   Oct-26-10 03:15 PM   #55 
              - My agenda is very clear. To challenge 12 Step propaganda.  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 03:24 PM   #58 
                 - Hmm..24 years clean and sober and I STILL don't have a religion.  cliffordu   Oct-26-10 03:42 PM   #62 
                    - Your personal experience  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 05:37 PM   #97 
        - If you are freely choosing it knock yourself out  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 02:50 PM   #48 
           - Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-26-10 03:17 PM   #56 
              - Bull fucking shit.  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 03:29 PM   #59 
                 - Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-26-10 03:40 PM   #61 
                    - Well, at least you aren't calling me a liar anymore.  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 03:54 PM   #69 
                       - "Keep coming back"  cliffordu   Oct-26-10 03:57 PM   #70 
                          - That's the thing, cliff. I'm not coming back.  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 04:02 PM   #74 
                             - I'll repeat what I've always said:  cliffordu   Oct-26-10 04:18 PM   #76 
                                - I'm simply sharing my own personal observations and criticisms  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 04:33 PM   #85 
                                   - Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-26-10 05:04 PM   #92 
                                      - I heard "death and institutions await those who go out" more times than I can count.  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 05:30 PM   #93 
                                         - Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-26-10 05:34 PM   #95 
                                            - Another distinction without a difference just like "spirituality" vs. religion  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 06:45 PM   #131 
  - Naturally a bar bouncer will only see drinkers, how would he know if it were successful as  Uncle Joe   Oct-26-10 11:53 AM   #17 
     - He told me he got repeat customers who've been to COURT ORDERED rehab on multiple occasions.  Initech   Oct-26-10 12:13 PM   #30 
        - There's another problem. Court ordering may feel good, but it's not going to work  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 12:20 PM   #32 
        - Exactly, you can't force someone to go to rehab.  Initech   Oct-26-10 12:22 PM   #35 
        - It's not surprising that people would blow off court ordered rehab.  JVS   Oct-26-10 03:04 PM   #53 
        - I'm sure he has and I'm not debating the efficiency of "court ordered" rehab, my point is  Uncle Joe   Oct-26-10 04:33 PM   #84 
  - Yes, it works ...  damntexdem   Oct-26-10 11:46 AM   #12 
  - It works for some  dalaigh lllama   Oct-26-10 11:48 AM   #13 
  - Relapse is part of recovery  zipplewrath   Oct-26-10 11:50 AM   #14 
  - I know a guy who quotes "The Good Book" (his name for the AA book) - he's worse now than he was.  HopeHoops   Oct-26-10 11:51 AM   #15 
  - It's most likely to work when the abuser goes in voluntarily  slackmaster   Oct-26-10 11:54 AM   #18 
  - Rehabs come in different flavors for good reason. An approach that works well for some  Gormy Cuss   Oct-26-10 11:55 AM   #20 
  - One thing to know is that there ARE secular and other alternatives to traditional 12 step methods.  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 11:55 AM   #21 
  - Another group I heard of, but haven't attended is  Fuzz   Oct-26-10 12:00 PM   #24 
     - From what I understand, I think it's vaguely related to RR. Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy based?  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 12:03 PM   #27 
  - No. But don't tell anyonre.  AngryAmish   Oct-26-10 12:02 PM   #26 
  - recovery works  mdmc   Oct-26-10 12:21 PM   #34 
  - About 1 out of 10 in AA stay away from alcohol for the rest of their life.  county worker   Oct-26-10 02:20 PM   #43 
  - +1111111111111  cliffordu   Oct-26-10 03:18 PM   #57 
  - And the other 9 are told they will die or end up institutionalized if they quit AA  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 03:34 PM   #60 
     - Wrong again.  cliffordu   Oct-26-10 06:29 PM   #125 
        - Dude, give it up. I spent years in AA. I know what goes on.  Hello_Kitty   Oct-26-10 07:31 PM   #151 
  - Only if you really want to quit.  MrSlayer   Oct-26-10 03:06 PM   #54 
  - +1.. You can't "make someone quit"  walldude   Oct-26-10 05:55 PM   #110 
  - It does work for some. Many go more than once. It's a horrible disease with no cure; relapses happen  Lil Missy   Oct-26-10 03:48 PM   #65 
  - I'm an alcoholic.AA is/was the only group in my area.  w8liftinglady   Oct-26-10 04:06 PM   #75 
  - When Society Becomes an Addict...  shockra   Oct-26-10 04:28 PM   #83 
  - I never heard of that book before. Will now look it up. Thanks for sharing that. n/t  catzies   Oct-26-10 06:29 PM   #126 
  - It works when the rehabee WANTS it to work.  Thegonagle   Oct-26-10 04:40 PM   #86 
  - It didn't work on my ex-husband.  Blue_In_AK   Oct-26-10 04:47 PM   #88 
  - it didn't work on my dad,either.unfortunately,there isn't a 100% cure rate  w8liftinglady   Oct-26-10 04:51 PM   #89 
  - It depends on the recovery program and the individual.  Joe Fields   Oct-26-10 06:01 PM   #114 
  - If rehab doesn't work - try doing it alone  Taverner   Oct-26-10 06:08 PM   #119 
  - It has for several members of my family.  proteus_lives   Oct-26-10 06:49 PM   #132 
  - There are so many stories...  pipi_k   Oct-26-10 07:04 PM   #142 
  - The thing to realize, IMHO, is that there is a real physiological situation re: Alcohol  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 07:26 PM   #150 
     - Oh, I get the genetic aspect of it, definitely...  pipi_k   Oct-26-10 07:42 PM   #156 
        - I think sugar is connected in there, somehow, too.  Warren DeMontague   Oct-26-10 08:35 PM   #159 
  - Recovery is a journey, who's path passes thru many Rehabs.. many failures, each a sign post of the  sam sarrha   Oct-26-10 08:42 PM   #160 
  - Locking.  Danger Mouse   Oct-26-10 08:47 PM   #161 

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