Warren DeMontague
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Tue Oct-26-10 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #46 |
| 66. She didn't use the word "dogma", but if you can't get how meetings with the Lord's Prayer |
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Edited on Tue Oct-26-10 03:50 PM by Warren DeMontague
strike many of us as "religious" (versus "spiritual", as if there's a difference) ... I'm sorry, I can't help you.
But whatever semantics you want to hang on it, mandating it by court without a secular alternative (they do exist, for people who are unconvinced by the "spiritual not religious" line, or for the Atheists who don't want to "come to believe") is a clear violation of the Establishment Clause.
|
| -Does drug/alcohhol rehab work? I can't tell you how many people I've heard of |
raccoon |
Oct-26-10 11:13 AM |
#0 |
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I know plenty |
benddem |
Oct-26-10 11:15 AM |
#1 |
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And I'm one of them. But then, I wanted to quit and to get my life back. |
SharonAnn |
Oct-26-10 11:23 AM |
#8 |
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That is the most important part of recovery.... |
WCGreen |
Oct-26-10 02:22 PM |
#45 |
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+4 |
dave29 |
Oct-26-10 04:23 PM |
#79 |
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I recovered too, because I wanted it. It was a year long program. nt |
pgodbold |
Oct-26-10 04:22 PM |
#78 |
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Someone I love went through court ordered rehab... |
Tikki |
Oct-26-10 07:33 PM |
#152 |
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I think the REASON you go to drug/alcohol rehab is the key |
Horse with no Name |
Oct-26-10 11:17 AM |
#2 |
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About 4 years ago or so I decided I didn't want to drink anymore |
madokie |
Oct-26-10 03:43 PM |
#63 |
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Same here. |
Sequoia |
Oct-26-10 06:40 PM |
#129 |
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My mother went through FIVE times. |
cliffordu |
Oct-26-10 11:18 AM |
#3 |
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I fucking HATE AA. Can't stand it. Makes me want to drink. |
Fuzz |
Oct-26-10 11:55 AM |
#19 |
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Then go drink. |
cliffordu |
Oct-26-10 03:58 PM |
#71 |
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Because the 12 steps or drinking: those are the ONLY two options. |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 05:51 PM |
#104 |
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LOL |
Taverner |
Oct-26-10 06:10 PM |
#121 |
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Try rational recovery |
Taverner |
Oct-26-10 06:09 PM |
#120 |
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"AA is critical" - maybe for you. |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 11:57 AM |
#22 |
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There's a wrench for every nut out there. |
cliffordu |
Oct-26-10 03:59 PM |
#72 |
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FYI, I've been sober for a very, very, very, very long time. |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 05:52 PM |
#107 |
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But you're not "really" sober because you're not in AA. |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 06:11 PM |
#122 |
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Some of the history is very interesting... |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 06:13 PM |
#123 |
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I'm amazed how the conclusions 2 rich white dudes drew about themselves in the 30s |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 06:32 PM |
#128 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Oct-26-10 06:56 PM |
#136 |
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You know fuck all about me, dude. |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 07:37 PM |
#154 |
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also connections to intelligence community. |
Hannah Bell |
Oct-26-10 07:37 PM |
#155 |
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AA is a religious program. |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 11:59 AM |
#23 |
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Spiritual, perhaps -- religious, no way |
dalaigh lllama |
Oct-26-10 01:04 PM |
#36 |
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Because many of them engage in pretzel-style semantic gymnastics to get around "God AYUH" |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 01:16 PM |
#38 |
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There are several secular alternatives. |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 02:13 PM |
#40 |
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I do. And my personal experience mirrors exactly what you say here. |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 02:18 PM |
#41 |
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If you took the word god out of all of the steps and substituted another word that |
county worker |
Oct-26-10 04:27 PM |
#82 |
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As an acronym for "god", agnostics I know use |
cliffordu |
Oct-26-10 05:33 PM |
#94 |
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Yeah, you can use a doorknob, or a tree, or the universe, or do other semantic gymnastics |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 05:50 PM |
#103 |
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Oh, and I love how they act like overt atheists are tolerated for long. |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 06:04 PM |
#116 |
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You will "come to believe" |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 06:06 PM |
#118 |
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i wish there would have been a secular program here.But there wasn't |
w8liftinglady |
Oct-26-10 04:26 PM |
#81 |
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10 months is great! |
cliffordu |
Oct-26-10 05:36 PM |
#96 |
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can you give me the name of some?I'm curious to see... |
w8liftinglady |
Oct-26-10 04:53 PM |
#90 |
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I'm using SMART Recovery |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 05:51 PM |
#105 |
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Miss Kitty, like you I don't care for the AA format and its religiosity. And kudos to you for |
catzies |
Oct-26-10 06:32 PM |
#127 |
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Thank you! |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 06:41 PM |
#130 |
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"I had no idea there were secular alternatives to AA out there." - EXACTLY. |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 07:13 PM |
#145 |
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These guys have more of a support group style, but no 12 steps or HP |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 05:54 PM |
#108 |
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It's a guilt trip to you. |
proteus_lives |
Oct-26-10 06:52 PM |
#133 |
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So AA should stop acting like it's the ONLY way, don't you think? eom |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 06:54 PM |
#134 |
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I've never been to a meeting where they say that. |
proteus_lives |
Oct-26-10 06:56 PM |
#137 |
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I heard it plenty. In many different forms. |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 07:03 PM |
#140 |
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I would too. |
proteus_lives |
Oct-26-10 07:21 PM |
#147 |
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That's exactly what I did. |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 07:23 PM |
#149 |
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I heard it, and variations of it, all the time. |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 07:34 PM |
#153 |
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I'm not superstitious so "spiritual not religious" is semantic hairsplitting |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 01:38 PM |
#39 |
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Please explain. Which of the steps is religious dogma? |
county worker |
Oct-26-10 02:25 PM |
#46 |
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Look, I'm not playing this game. |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 02:46 PM |
#47 |
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I just wanted your opinion. It's not a game. |
county worker |
Oct-26-10 02:55 PM |
#50 |
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Good for you. |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 03:04 PM |
#52 |
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I don't agree with being forced either because unless it is your decision |
county worker |
Oct-26-10 03:53 PM |
#68 |
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You're supposed to be overcome at the vision of the steps, like you've never read them before. |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 03:51 PM |
#67 |
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You ARE playing this game. |
cliffordu |
Oct-26-10 04:01 PM |
#73 |
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I am not lying. Like I said, just giving my own observations. |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 05:41 PM |
#99 |
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She didn't use the word "dogma", but if you can't get how meetings with the Lord's Prayer |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 03:50 PM |
#66 |
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I don't think court mandating AA attendance is a good idea. |
county worker |
Oct-26-10 04:21 PM |
#77 |
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neither do I. |
w8liftinglady |
Oct-26-10 04:44 PM |
#87 |
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It worked for my brother. |
lumberjack_jeff |
Oct-26-10 04:57 PM |
#91 |
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AA is religious hokum. nt |
Codeine |
Oct-26-10 12:20 PM |
#33 |
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Congrats to your mother! I know many who |
CBR |
Oct-26-10 01:07 PM |
#37 |
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AA acts like it's the ONLY thing that works |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 02:19 PM |
#42 |
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That's where I have a big problem with it, too. |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 02:22 PM |
#44 |
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It's a cult. They deny it vigorously but it has all the hallmarks of a cult. |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 02:52 PM |
#49 |
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Oddly enough, I got some junk mail from "Narconon" not that long ago |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 03:47 PM |
#64 |
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Uh.... |
cliffordu |
Oct-26-10 05:37 PM |
#98 |
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Really? "Complete Bullshit"? |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 05:43 PM |
#100 |
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Not being involved in Scientology, I assumed you were sniveling about this: |
cliffordu |
Oct-26-10 05:51 PM |
#106 |
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I was talking about a well publicized lawsuit in California |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 05:57 PM |
#111 |
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that's right - Narcanon == Scientlology, but has never been associated with NA or |
cliffordu |
Oct-26-10 06:02 PM |
#115 |
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"please read for a change" - take your own advice. |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 06:05 PM |
#117 |
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Why so hostile, cliff? What happened to easy does it and live and let live? eom |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 05:43 PM |
#101 |
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Hmmm. Interesting.... |
cliffordu |
Oct-26-10 05:48 PM |
#102 |
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Ah yes. Ye olde "works if you work it" chestnut. |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 05:54 PM |
#109 |
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Didn't take long, did it? |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 06:00 PM |
#113 |
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Yeah, it's been a real disadvantage to me to spend the last 10 years sober without having |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 05:59 PM |
#112 |
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Glad you found a way to stay sober. |
cliffordu |
Oct-26-10 06:19 PM |
#124 |
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Maybe tolerance isn't rational to them. |
proteus_lives |
Oct-26-10 06:55 PM |
#135 |
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I'm thinking you're on to something..... |
cliffordu |
Oct-26-10 06:57 PM |
#138 |
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Or, maybe we can just make up shit that sounds good and fits on a bumper sticker. |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 07:04 PM |
#141 |
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Your complete contempt for the program and the people in it reeks. |
cliffordu |
Oct-26-10 07:07 PM |
#143 |
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Now, you're hallucinating. And you're not providing links, because you know it's not there. |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 07:21 PM |
#146 |
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....Be careful...Just wait till your DAD gets home.... |
cliffordu |
Oct-26-10 08:13 PM |
#157 |
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My dad's been dead for 15 years, but thanks. |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 08:33 PM |
#158 |
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Maybe if you could take a break from flinging insults |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 07:01 PM |
#139 |
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Apparently I don't have to, having touched a nerve in your |
cliffordu |
Oct-26-10 07:08 PM |
#144 |
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Can't take a break from the insults? Apparently not. |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 07:22 PM |
#148 |
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Yes it does. |
Le Taz Hot |
Oct-26-10 11:19 AM |
#4 |
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It is non-falsifiable |
AngryAmish |
Oct-26-10 12:03 PM |
#28 |
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It works sometimes. |
Kurt_and_Hunter |
Oct-26-10 11:20 AM |
#5 |
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Alcoholism is a terrible disease, |
elleng |
Oct-26-10 11:20 AM |
#6 |
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very well said |
KurtNYC |
Oct-26-10 04:25 PM |
#80 |
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It works for some and doesn't for others |
RockaFowler |
Oct-26-10 11:20 AM |
#7 |
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I have a friend who was a former bar bouncer. |
Initech |
Oct-26-10 11:23 AM |
#9 |
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Only works if you really want to change. n/t |
cdsilv |
Oct-26-10 11:34 AM |
#10 |
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True but for every one that does, there's 100,000 that don't. |
Initech |
Oct-26-10 12:14 PM |
#31 |
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Of course if he went to AA meetings he'd say the opposite. |
cliffordu |
Oct-26-10 11:36 AM |
#11 |
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Or, maybe he'd say that the success rate for 12 step programs is roughly equivalent |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 11:52 AM |
#16 |
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The vast majority of us don't make it at all |
cliffordu |
Oct-26-10 12:00 PM |
#25 |
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That is true. The rates are bad no matter how you slice it. |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 12:05 PM |
#29 |
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That all-or-nothing mentality worsens relapses |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 03:00 PM |
#51 |
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You and I have been here before. |
cliffordu |
Oct-26-10 03:15 PM |
#55 |
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My agenda is very clear. To challenge 12 Step propaganda. |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 03:24 PM |
#58 |
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Hmm..24 years clean and sober and I STILL don't have a religion. |
cliffordu |
Oct-26-10 03:42 PM |
#62 |
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Your personal experience |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 05:37 PM |
#97 |
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If you are freely choosing it knock yourself out |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 02:50 PM |
#48 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Oct-26-10 03:17 PM |
#56 |
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Bull fucking shit. |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 03:29 PM |
#59 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Oct-26-10 03:40 PM |
#61 |
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Well, at least you aren't calling me a liar anymore. |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 03:54 PM |
#69 |
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"Keep coming back" |
cliffordu |
Oct-26-10 03:57 PM |
#70 |
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That's the thing, cliff. I'm not coming back. |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 04:02 PM |
#74 |
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I'll repeat what I've always said: |
cliffordu |
Oct-26-10 04:18 PM |
#76 |
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I'm simply sharing my own personal observations and criticisms |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 04:33 PM |
#85 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Oct-26-10 05:04 PM |
#92 |
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I heard "death and institutions await those who go out" more times than I can count. |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 05:30 PM |
#93 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Oct-26-10 05:34 PM |
#95 |
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Another distinction without a difference just like "spirituality" vs. religion |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 06:45 PM |
#131 |
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Naturally a bar bouncer will only see drinkers, how would he know if it were successful as |
Uncle Joe |
Oct-26-10 11:53 AM |
#17 |
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He told me he got repeat customers who've been to COURT ORDERED rehab on multiple occasions. |
Initech |
Oct-26-10 12:13 PM |
#30 |
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There's another problem. Court ordering may feel good, but it's not going to work |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 12:20 PM |
#32 |
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Exactly, you can't force someone to go to rehab. |
Initech |
Oct-26-10 12:22 PM |
#35 |
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It's not surprising that people would blow off court ordered rehab. |
JVS |
Oct-26-10 03:04 PM |
#53 |
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I'm sure he has and I'm not debating the efficiency of "court ordered" rehab, my point is |
Uncle Joe |
Oct-26-10 04:33 PM |
#84 |
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Yes, it works ... |
damntexdem |
Oct-26-10 11:46 AM |
#12 |
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It works for some |
dalaigh lllama |
Oct-26-10 11:48 AM |
#13 |
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Relapse is part of recovery |
zipplewrath |
Oct-26-10 11:50 AM |
#14 |
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I know a guy who quotes "The Good Book" (his name for the AA book) - he's worse now than he was. |
HopeHoops |
Oct-26-10 11:51 AM |
#15 |
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It's most likely to work when the abuser goes in voluntarily |
slackmaster |
Oct-26-10 11:54 AM |
#18 |
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Rehabs come in different flavors for good reason. An approach that works well for some |
Gormy Cuss |
Oct-26-10 11:55 AM |
#20 |
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One thing to know is that there ARE secular and other alternatives to traditional 12 step methods. |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 11:55 AM |
#21 |
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Another group I heard of, but haven't attended is |
Fuzz |
Oct-26-10 12:00 PM |
#24 |
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From what I understand, I think it's vaguely related to RR. Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy based? |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 12:03 PM |
#27 |
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No. But don't tell anyonre. |
AngryAmish |
Oct-26-10 12:02 PM |
#26 |
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recovery works |
mdmc |
Oct-26-10 12:21 PM |
#34 |
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About 1 out of 10 in AA stay away from alcohol for the rest of their life. |
county worker |
Oct-26-10 02:20 PM |
#43 |
| -
+1111111111111 |
cliffordu |
Oct-26-10 03:18 PM |
#57 |
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And the other 9 are told they will die or end up institutionalized if they quit AA |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 03:34 PM |
#60 |
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Wrong again. |
cliffordu |
Oct-26-10 06:29 PM |
#125 |
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Dude, give it up. I spent years in AA. I know what goes on. |
Hello_Kitty |
Oct-26-10 07:31 PM |
#151 |
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Only if you really want to quit. |
MrSlayer |
Oct-26-10 03:06 PM |
#54 |
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+1.. You can't "make someone quit" |
walldude |
Oct-26-10 05:55 PM |
#110 |
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It does work for some. Many go more than once. It's a horrible disease with no cure; relapses happen |
Lil Missy |
Oct-26-10 03:48 PM |
#65 |
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I'm an alcoholic.AA is/was the only group in my area. |
w8liftinglady |
Oct-26-10 04:06 PM |
#75 |
| -
When Society Becomes an Addict... |
shockra |
Oct-26-10 04:28 PM |
#83 |
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I never heard of that book before. Will now look it up. Thanks for sharing that. n/t |
catzies |
Oct-26-10 06:29 PM |
#126 |
| -
It works when the rehabee WANTS it to work. |
Thegonagle |
Oct-26-10 04:40 PM |
#86 |
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It didn't work on my ex-husband. |
Blue_In_AK |
Oct-26-10 04:47 PM |
#88 |
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it didn't work on my dad,either.unfortunately,there isn't a 100% cure rate |
w8liftinglady |
Oct-26-10 04:51 PM |
#89 |
| -
It depends on the recovery program and the individual. |
Joe Fields |
Oct-26-10 06:01 PM |
#114 |
| -
If rehab doesn't work - try doing it alone |
Taverner |
Oct-26-10 06:08 PM |
#119 |
| -
It has for several members of my family. |
proteus_lives |
Oct-26-10 06:49 PM |
#132 |
| -
There are so many stories... |
pipi_k |
Oct-26-10 07:04 PM |
#142 |
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The thing to realize, IMHO, is that there is a real physiological situation re: Alcohol |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 07:26 PM |
#150 |
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Oh, I get the genetic aspect of it, definitely... |
pipi_k |
Oct-26-10 07:42 PM |
#156 |
| -
I think sugar is connected in there, somehow, too. |
Warren DeMontague |
Oct-26-10 08:35 PM |
#159 |
| -
Recovery is a journey, who's path passes thru many Rehabs.. many failures, each a sign post of the |
sam sarrha |
Oct-26-10 08:42 PM |
#160 |
| -
Locking. |
Danger Mouse |
Oct-26-10 08:47 PM |
#161 |
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