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Reply #82: Nobody has "abandoned the left." The bottom line in this [View All]

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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #71
82. Nobody has "abandoned the left." The bottom line in this
country is that it's about equally divided, politically, with a huge majority of its citizens falling in the middle somewhere in the political spectrum. We elect our legislators and executives, both nationally and locally. What that means is the the left end of the political spectrum rarely gets a candidate elected who represents their values exactly. It's unreasonable to expect that legislators elected primarily by voters who fall near the center politically would take leftist positions. Quite logically, they take centrist positions. Thus, we don't get legislation that we approve of 100%. It simply does not happen. Nor will it, unless the left manages to shift the population in its direction.

So, we don't get single payer healthcare, which is what I want. We don't get an immediate withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan. We don't get a lot of things that many of us would like to see happen. What we get, and what we have always gotten via our system is gradual movement in one direction or another. Inertia keeps more drastic movement from happening. It takes a lot of time and a lot of force to swing the US in any direction. The left does not have that force, so we don't get leftist measures. We get gradual progressive movement when we have a Democrat in the Presidency and both houses controlled by Democrats. We get some sort of health care reform. We get some sort of economic measures. We get something. When the situation is reversed, we get something else.

A leftist United States is a pipe dream. It will not happen. Ever. The country's too big, too divided, and too laden with inertia. The best we on the left will get is a Democratic majority in Congress and a Democratic President. When that occurs, we get some progressive movement. It's never enough. It will never be enough. But, it's what we can get. That's not defeatism. That's pragmatism. It is what it is.
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  -Tariq Ali Book Equates Obama and Bush MineralMan  Sep-23-10 09:31 AM   #0 
  - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Sep-23-10 09:36 AM   #1 
  - K&R...  SidDithers   Sep-23-10 09:38 AM   #2 
  - Thanks for your thoughts on this MM nt  flamingdem   Sep-23-10 09:40 AM   #3 
  - Yeah, they were unclear in the other thread about this same issue.  Stinky The Clown   Sep-23-10 09:42 AM   #4 
     - My friend, it's not at all uncommon for more than one thread  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 09:49 AM   #13 
     - How was the content of your thread unique?  EFerrari   Sep-23-10 02:18 PM   #96 
        - Well, the OP in the other thread from yesterday didn't include the  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 02:54 PM   #115 
           - the discussion of the cover of the Book was in the NPR video ..did you listen to it?  flyarm   Sep-23-10 02:59 PM   #119 
              - I included that link to in my OP.  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 03:04 PM   #124 
                 - I didn't miss a thing until my posts were removed, that gave the links as well.  flyarm   Sep-23-10 03:12 PM   #129 
                    - I don't know anything about posts being removed.  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 03:14 PM   #131 
                       - But you did post this:  flyarm   Sep-23-10 03:24 PM   #136 
                          - Not the point. Not the point at all.  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 03:31 PM   #138 
                             - Not my point eitther ..this point was clearly addressed in the interview posted yesterday! eom  flyarm   Sep-23-10 03:40 PM   #141 
     - No, the last thread was supportive of that tool bag equating Obama to Bush  USArmyParatrooper   Sep-23-10 10:42 AM   #42 
     - Refutation to that meme could have been accomplished there  Stinky The Clown   Sep-23-10 11:00 AM   #50 
     - Or, it could be done, as I did here, in a new thread  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 11:03 AM   #59 
     - Yes, I read your threads. I'm very Ceasarean that way.  Stinky The Clown   Sep-23-10 11:06 AM   #64 
        - Well, thanks to you for visiting my threads and  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 11:10 AM   #66 
     - So what are you getting at?  USArmyParatrooper   Sep-23-10 11:16 AM   #72 
     - So this respected historian, novelist and director is like the KKK?  EFerrari   Sep-23-10 01:34 PM   #89 
     - Everyone knows we should judge a book by its cover.  EFerrari   Sep-23-10 02:16 PM   #95 
  - An aging liberal who's time has come and gone, hoping to cash in on a quick buck  NJmaverick   Sep-23-10 09:42 AM   #5 
  - Jumping The Bandwagon?  Beetwasher   Sep-23-10 09:46 AM   #8 
  - Well, Ali has every right to write a book containing his opinion.  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 09:46 AM   #9 
  - Liberal? Don't make me laugh  wookie72   Sep-23-10 09:47 AM   #11 
     - You can try and laugh, but it will not change the correctness of my statement  NJmaverick   Sep-23-10 09:50 AM   #14 
        - Not so much.  wookie72   Sep-23-10 09:57 AM   #19 
           - How is that Marxism working out these days?  NJmaverick   Sep-23-10 09:59 AM   #21 
              - Marx's criticism of capitalism was actually spot on  wookie72   Sep-23-10 10:07 AM   #27 
                 - Results matter more than words. Marx was a fool who had no clue about human nature  NJmaverick   Sep-23-10 10:10 AM   #29 
                    - If so, don't go with the ad hominem attacks.  wookie72   Sep-23-10 10:17 AM   #31 
                       - Actually you did that for me as you pointed out the author has extremely poor judgment  NJmaverick   Sep-23-10 10:19 AM   #33 
                          - SO I guess  wookie72   Sep-23-10 10:36 AM   #41 
                             - "Prove" Him Wrong? How Do You Prove Someone's Idiotic Opinion Wrong?  Beetwasher   Sep-23-10 10:48 AM   #43 
                                - Now what's wrong with you? being all sensible and logical  NJmaverick   Sep-23-10 10:52 AM   #45 
                                - Is Guantanamo closed? ARe the predator drone strikes stopped?  wookie72   Sep-23-10 10:53 AM   #46 
                                   - Have "the predator drone attacks strikes stopped"?  NJmaverick   Sep-23-10 10:55 AM   #47 
                                   - Sorry multiple reply  wookie72   Sep-23-10 11:01 AM   #53 
                                   - Sorry multiple reply  wookie72   Sep-23-10 11:01 AM   #54 
                                   - Sorry multiple reply  wookie72   Sep-23-10 11:01 AM   #55 
                                   - Defending one's self from terrorists is a good thing  NJmaverick   Sep-23-10 11:05 AM   #61 
                                      - SO you approved of it when Bush did it?  wookie72   Sep-23-10 11:06 AM   #63 
                                         - I approve of the use of drones to defend our nation from Al Qaeda  NJmaverick   Sep-23-10 11:34 AM   #77 
                                         - No, you should be upset when Obama doesn't do what he promised  wookie72   Sep-23-10 01:02 PM   #85 
                                         - President Obama promised to concentrate on Al Qaeda and take the fight to them  NJmaverick   Sep-23-10 03:07 PM   #126 
                                         - I did.  USArmyParatrooper   Sep-23-10 11:36 AM   #78 
                                            - In any case, I fail to see why Ali's argument is unfair or inaccurate.  wookie72   Sep-23-10 01:07 PM   #87 
                                            - I haven't read the book. Have you?  USArmyParatrooper   Sep-23-10 02:04 PM   #94 
                                            - So, let's run this down. You haven't read the book.  EFerrari   Sep-23-10 02:24 PM   #98 
                                            - And yet, you haven't read it either.  USArmyParatrooper   Sep-23-10 02:40 PM   #103 
                                            - What? I have read it and I'm watching it now.  EFerrari   Sep-23-10 02:41 PM   #105 
                                            - You accidentally forgot to address the rest of my post  USArmyParatrooper   Sep-23-10 02:46 PM   #107 
                                            - Well, no, I didn't. I'm still trying to figure out  EFerrari   Sep-23-10 02:51 PM   #112 
                                            - "Obama = Bush" Is ignorant and inflammetory garbage  USArmyParatrooper   Sep-23-10 02:56 PM   #117 
                                            - It is ignorant inflammatory crap and brought to you not by Tariq Ali  EFerrari   Sep-23-10 03:02 PM   #123 
                                            - Yeah, not people. Just when you peel back Obama's skin you get Bush underneath  USArmyParatrooper   Sep-23-10 03:11 PM   #128 
                                            - No, what's ignorant and "inflammetory" garbage is comparing  Puregonzo1188   Sep-23-10 04:20 PM   #150 
                                            - Please. Spare me your indignant, phony outrage.  USArmyParatrooper   Sep-23-10 04:43 PM   #154 
                                            - Well then I apologize. However, judging by some of the other  Puregonzo1188   Sep-23-10 05:08 PM   #162 
                                            - Ignorant crap? Yes.  USArmyParatrooper   Sep-23-10 08:45 PM   #183 
                                   - Sorry multiple reply  wookie72   Sep-23-10 11:01 AM   #56 
                                   - So going after a few hundred people, killing several innocent people  wookie72   Sep-23-10 11:02 AM   #57 
                                   - that has nothing to do with marxism sucking ass.  dionysus   Sep-23-10 08:17 PM   #180 
                                      - Cardboard cutout comrades?"  wookie72   Sep-23-10 11:07 PM   #189 
                                - Simple. Provide specific examples of how Obama's policies differ from Bush's.  Spheric   Sep-23-10 04:50 PM   #156 
                                   - You Mean, You Don't Know Of Any?  Beetwasher   Sep-23-10 05:03 PM   #159 
                                   - You assert that there are stark differences between the policies...  Spheric   Sep-23-10 05:15 PM   #163 
                                      - The Author Has An Idiotic Opinion "Asserting" That Obama=Bush, It's His Opinion  Beetwasher   Sep-23-10 05:26 PM   #164 
                                         - Still no facts. See, facts can actually prove opinions wrong.  Spheric   Sep-23-10 05:31 PM   #166 
                                            - No, Facts Don't Matter When You've Already Made Up Your Mind That Obama=Bush  Beetwasher   Sep-23-10 05:31 PM   #167 
                                               - I don't believe that has anything to do with this.  Spheric   Sep-23-10 06:29 PM   #170 
                                                  - Of Course You Don't! Because It's A BELIEF/Opinion. That's Why Facts Will NEVER Matter To You! Duh.  Beetwasher   Sep-23-10 08:50 PM   #184 
                                                  - Claiming that facts wouldn't matter is a cheap way of avoiding having to provide any.  Spheric   Sep-24-10 02:56 AM   #192 
                                                  - Facts Don't Matter When It Comes To Faith Based Belief Or Opinion, I'm On To The Pathetic Game  Beetwasher   Sep-24-10 10:54 AM   #196 
                                                  - Yes, I get it, You can't argue against the message, so you try to paint the messengers as wingnuts.  Spheric   Sep-24-10 05:42 PM   #197 
                                                  - Not my fault the mindset and game is the same faith based nonsense demanding "proof" of a negative  Beetwasher   Sep-25-10 09:05 AM   #198 
                                   - if you can't tell the difference, i question your ability to read.  dionysus   Sep-23-10 08:18 PM   #181 
  - K&R  HughMoran   Sep-23-10 09:43 AM   #6 
  - How is it unfair to hold him to his promise  wookie72   Sep-23-10 11:10 AM   #67 
     - Smearing Obama unfairly and comparing him to Bush is the last thing we need right now.  HughMoran   Sep-23-10 11:11 AM   #68 
        - I agree, but this is not an unfair smear  wookie72   Sep-23-10 11:13 AM   #70 
        - Yes, we know the Titanic had too small of a rudder to turn on a dime.  HughMoran   Sep-23-10 11:25 AM   #73 
           - "It's election time."  wookie72   Sep-23-10 01:06 PM   #86 
              - No, it really is election time.  HughMoran   Sep-23-10 01:34 PM   #90 
                 - It's never NOT "election time" that's my point.  wookie72   Sep-23-10 02:02 PM   #93 
                    - That's just not true  HughMoran   Sep-23-10 02:31 PM   #100 
                       - Was it election time six months ago?  Spheric   Sep-23-10 05:03 PM   #158 
                          - No it wasn't.  HughMoran   Sep-23-10 05:06 PM   #160 
                             - Analyzing policy is "viscous attacks?"  Spheric   Sep-23-10 06:42 PM   #171 
                             - Would you be OK savaging Democrats right up until election day?  HughMoran   Sep-23-10 06:57 PM   #172 
                                - Well, all I'm interested in is a discussion of policy.  Spheric   Sep-23-10 07:14 PM   #175 
                                   - It's been debunked a thousand times here  HughMoran   Sep-23-10 07:56 PM   #178 
                             - Making a factual comparison is a vicious attack?  wookie72   Sep-23-10 11:04 PM   #188 
                                - Making over the top exaggerated claims is just dumb  HughMoran   Sep-23-10 11:27 PM   #191 
        - Who is we? Does it include any of the innocent civilians killed  Puregonzo1188   Sep-23-10 04:26 PM   #152 
           - "WE" are Democrats.  HughMoran   Sep-23-10 04:50 PM   #155 
  - Time for a book burning  quinnox   Sep-23-10 09:45 AM   #7 
  - It is a free country. I'll actually buy this book, and I don't burn  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 09:47 AM   #12 
  - the only question is:  G_j   Sep-23-10 09:47 AM   #10 
  - I don't' know yet. I haven't had a chance to buy and read the book.  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 09:52 AM   #15 
  - no, I didn't hear you say  G_j   Sep-23-10 09:58 AM   #20 
     - Thanks. I'd never comment on the contents of a book I hadn't  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 10:00 AM   #22 
        - I listened to the DN interview  G_j   Sep-23-10 10:26 PM   #187 
  - To answer you question- No he does not have a legitimate POV  NJmaverick   Sep-23-10 09:54 AM   #16 
  - and I should take your word on that?  G_j   Sep-23-10 09:55 AM   #17 
  - If you have some facts to back up your contrary opinion I am all ears (or in the case of message  NJmaverick   Sep-23-10 10:00 AM   #23 
     - I didn't realize I had expressed an opinion -nt  G_j   Sep-23-10 10:51 AM   #44 
        - Actually you did You expressed the opinion that you doubted my opinion  NJmaverick   Sep-23-10 10:57 AM   #49 
           - I asked why I should accept your statement  G_j   Sep-23-10 11:05 AM   #62 
              - why did you ask that question?  NJmaverick   Sep-23-10 11:31 AM   #76 
  - I'm going to wait until I have a chance to read this book  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 09:55 AM   #18 
  - I am going to go by the nonsense he spouted in his interview  NJmaverick   Sep-23-10 10:04 AM   #25 
     - Well, right now, that's all we have. That's why I posted this.  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 10:17 AM   #32 
  - "Quixotic liberals"? Is that the "professional left"? Or, just "Reds" that you're baiting?  Tierra_y_Libertad   Sep-23-10 10:03 AM   #24 
     - You need to be familiar with the Novel: The Ingenious Hidalgo Don Quixote of La Mancha  NJmaverick   Sep-23-10 10:06 AM   #26 
        - You should be familiar with Joe McCarthy and his list.  Tierra_y_Libertad   Sep-23-10 10:07 AM   #28 
           - That would certainly be a good example to support my reference  NJmaverick   Sep-23-10 10:14 AM   #30 
              - It's the "sensible liberals" who see the Left as monsters and the right as their allies.  Tierra_y_Libertad   Sep-23-10 10:20 AM   #35 
                 - Yes there are always evil villains in the world of Quixote liberals  NJmaverick   Sep-23-10 10:28 AM   #37 
                 - Yah know, you're still misquoting Rahm and Gibbs. I'm one  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 10:33 AM   #39 
                 - I don't think it's very sensible or practical to abandon the left in favor of "bipartisanship".  Tierra_y_Libertad   Sep-23-10 11:16 AM   #71 
                    - How far to the left can an EX-congressman move the country?  USArmyParatrooper   Sep-23-10 11:29 AM   #75 
                    - Nobody has "abandoned the left." The bottom line in this  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 11:52 AM   #82 
                 - good call  G_j   Sep-23-10 10:55 AM   #48 
                    - Do you ever get tired fo the meme that sensibility is the enemy?  NJmaverick   Sep-23-10 11:01 AM   #51 
                       - IMHO, the  G_j   Sep-23-10 11:12 AM   #69 
                          - So you support the sadly misguided meme that being sensible, practical a  NJmaverick   Sep-23-10 11:36 AM   #79 
  - Judging by his interviews  Radical Activist   Sep-23-10 02:46 PM   #108 
     - please do be more specific..where does he " cherry pick"or engage in "exaggeration and distortion"  flyarm   Sep-23-10 03:09 PM   #127 
        - Here ya go  Radical Activist   Sep-23-10 10:15 PM   #186 
  - Whoever thinks this is a true idiot. Short memories in this country.  young but wise   Sep-23-10 10:20 AM   #34 
  - I cannot make heads nor tails out of this!  POAS   Sep-23-10 01:40 PM   #91 
     - Whoever thinks Obama=Bush is true idiot.  young but wise   Sep-23-10 02:33 PM   #101 
        - Thanks for clearing it up! n/t  POAS   Sep-23-10 03:05 PM   #125 
  - No one can say that the "Professional Left" is out to make a buck  Kahuna   Sep-23-10 10:28 AM   #36 
  - Well, they're "Professionals," innit?  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 10:35 AM   #40 
  - O has repeated far too many --  Hell Hath No Fury   Sep-23-10 10:33 AM   #38 
  - Of course the alternative explanation is that he has a better understanding of the Constitution  NJmaverick   Sep-23-10 11:03 AM   #58 
     - Presumption of innocence is fundamental to the American way.  Usrename   Sep-23-10 03:19 PM   #133 
  - For those who aren't familiar with Tariq Ali...  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 11:01 AM   #52 
  - Thanks MineralMan.  Scurrilous   Sep-23-10 11:05 AM   #60 
     - Well, I'm sure many don't even know who this writer is, so  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 11:07 AM   #65 
        - Except they had sources available in Better Believe It's thread  EFerrari   Sep-23-10 02:21 PM   #97 
           - Oh, not everyone clicks through to read the original  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 02:30 PM   #99 
           - No. What you did was blow up a book cover image  EFerrari   Sep-23-10 02:34 PM   #102 
              - Actually, I reduced an image that was too large, and hosted it  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 02:41 PM   #104 
                 - So, you went to the trouble of editing the image, hosting it  EFerrari   Sep-23-10 02:48 PM   #110 
                    - Thanks, I don't like hotlinking images from other sites. Bandwidth  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 02:52 PM   #113 
                       - Bandwidth is "expense". And I look forward to more of  EFerrari   Sep-23-10 02:55 PM   #116 
                          - In this case, a picture speaks a thousand words.  HughMoran   Sep-23-10 03:02 PM   #121 
                          - Oops. Thanks for the correction. I edited the post. I guess I was  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 03:02 PM   #122 
           - I included a link to the transcript of the interview in my OP, as well.  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 03:12 PM   #130 
  - WOW, K&R! Thank you for this Mineral Man.  SunsetDreams   Sep-23-10 11:26 AM   #74 
  - Thanks for reading the thread!  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 11:40 AM   #80 
  - Lending further credence to the admonition "consider the source."  AtomicKitten   Sep-23-10 11:47 AM   #81 
  - The 18 unrecs to date seem to be promoting the Bush = Obama meme  HughMoran   Sep-23-10 12:24 PM   #83 
  - Thank you for pulling back the curtain  JNelson6563   Sep-23-10 12:25 PM   #84 
  - What curtain, exactly? What new information did you get in this OP?  EFerrari   Sep-23-10 01:54 PM   #92 
  - bullshit, but hey it's opinions  spanone   Sep-23-10 01:07 PM   #88 
  - "from one of the worst Democrat areas in the country, Chicago"  Radical Activist   Sep-23-10 02:43 PM   #106 
  - Well, in Tariq Ali's defense, he's British, you know.  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 02:48 PM   #109 
     - And he probably has no idea that  Radical Activist   Sep-23-10 02:53 PM   #114 
        - Ali probably knows Chicago better than both of you together  EFerrari   Sep-23-10 02:58 PM   #118 
           - How would he?  Radical Activist   Sep-23-10 03:01 PM   #120 
           - How would he? Because he is an edcuated man  EFerrari   Sep-23-10 07:10 PM   #173 
              - lol Just like the people who think Rahm is the frontrunner for Chicago mayor  Radical Activist   Sep-23-10 10:12 PM   #185 
                 - No, Rad, not like that.  EFerrari   Sep-23-10 11:07 PM   #190 
           - How on earth can you make that claim?!?!  NJmaverick   Sep-23-10 03:17 PM   #132 
           - +1.  VMI Dem   Sep-23-10 03:23 PM   #135 
  - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Sep-23-10 02:49 PM   #111 
  - Obama is carrying out the Bush Doctrine in Afghanistan.  VMI Dem   Sep-23-10 03:19 PM   #134 
  - He's also the President of The United States.  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 03:27 PM   #137 
     - He has allowed or caused more drone attacks in 2 years than 8 years of Bush.  Bonobo   Sep-24-10 04:05 AM   #194 
  - You know, the best way to refute this meme would seem to be to actually refute it.  Spheric   Sep-23-10 03:36 PM   #139 
  - Hmm...I've seen that done many, many times on DU. Perhaps  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 03:38 PM   #140 
  - Links would be nice.  Spheric   Sep-23-10 03:40 PM   #142 
     - I don't have time at the moment to do the search required. Sorry.  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 03:43 PM   #143 
        - I understand.  Spheric   Sep-23-10 03:46 PM   #144 
           - Another day, perhaps. But it's been done before by others.  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 03:50 PM   #145 
              - Oh well. And the beat goes on. /nt  Spheric   Sep-23-10 03:53 PM   #146 
  - Please tell us what specifically you would like to know....  chowder66   Sep-23-10 05:36 PM   #168 
     - Policy differences. /nt  Spheric   Sep-23-10 07:28 PM   #176 
     - okay...but will they satisfy? doubt it....  chowder66   Sep-24-10 03:50 AM   #193 
        - Actually, their policy (and their rhetoric) is virtually identical.  Usrename   Sep-24-10 08:52 AM   #195 
     - The current war policy was enacted under Bush.  Usrename   Sep-23-10 07:29 PM   #177 
  - Do you REALLY think the author will "convince some progressives" of anything?  Stinky The Clown   Sep-23-10 03:56 PM   #147 
  - It IS simply my opinion vs. his. Thanks for recognizing that.  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 04:06 PM   #148 
  - I don't actually disagree with the statement.  Stinky The Clown   Sep-23-10 05:06 PM   #161 
     - But I have read the entirety of that interview. I have said so  MineralMan   Sep-23-10 07:11 PM   #174 
  - Opinion  HughMoran   Sep-23-10 04:20 PM   #151 
     - Indeed. And opinions don't specifically require validation.  Spheric   Sep-23-10 04:29 PM   #153 
     - Hugh  Stinky The Clown   Sep-23-10 05:30 PM   #165 
        - No more free pop tarts?  HughMoran   Sep-23-10 05:53 PM   #169 
  - Not on every issue.  Puregonzo1188   Sep-23-10 04:13 PM   #149 
  - Who says Obama isn't creating jobs?  celebritymagnet   Sep-23-10 05:00 PM   #157 
  - Weird.  HughMoran   Sep-23-10 08:05 PM   #179 
  - I've got an idea  Panaconda   Sep-23-10 08:23 PM   #182 

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