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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-10 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #26
Edited on Tue Aug-31-10 03:05 PM by WinkyDink
PRESUMABLY, the adults here, working with and for other adults, are fully-formed in knowing how they themselves learn best. Moreover, the vast majority of adults in jobs are motivated by the immediate prospect of money to do well. Students have the long-range motivation of a job or further education, neither of which is paramount in the minds of, say, 7th-graders. Maybe if we paid them....?

Show me the adult trainer of adults who is supposed to adapt the TRAINING to the LEARNER! What if the adult learner is the VISUAL type? Or the WORD type? Or, say, is maybe left-brained? Or prefers to work in GROUPS? Or, because of a sports activity, skips the training session, which the supervisor must then re-schedule?

Back in the one-room school-house days, when one teacher taught the same children year to year, then the ease of teacher evaluation was obvious. IOW, the "subject N" was a constant, not a variable.

But I have two basic questions:

1. How would one propose to test non-academic-subject teachers on the success of their students? Student paintings? A track-and-field meet? Low BMI?

2. Why do no or extremely few discussions mention the role of ADMINISTRATORS (principals, asst principals, etc.) in Teacher Evaluation?

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  -Will an evaluation system for teachers be flawed ? UndertheOcean  Aug-31-10 11:49 AM   #0 
  - Yeah I'm kind of amused that teachers are now telling us tests and scores have no value.  dkf   Aug-31-10 11:51 AM   #1 
  - give the teachers a test  zipplewrath   Aug-31-10 11:53 AM   #2 
  - I'm accountable for the training I give others...  JuniperLea   Aug-31-10 11:55 AM   #4 
  - But are you training adults, because that's really a different situation.  GreenPartyVoter   Aug-31-10 12:00 PM   #5 
  - Barely out of college, most of them...  JuniperLea   Aug-31-10 12:08 PM   #8 
  - Which is why I did have to take 4 years in college to be trained for it  joeglow3   Aug-31-10 12:12 PM   #11 
  - And teachers are "accountable"  zipplewrath   Aug-31-10 12:05 PM   #7 
  - Why isn't it a teacher's responsibility to get kids to class and engaged?  JuniperLea   Aug-31-10 12:10 PM   #9 
  - It is PART of their job  zipplewrath   Aug-31-10 12:42 PM   #23 
  - Actually, I have 177 students now.  Catshrink   Sep-02-10 05:13 PM   #105 
  - What does "get kids to class" mean?  WinkyDink   Aug-31-10 02:42 PM   #41 
  - JuniperLea, let me tell you a story.  JDPriestly   Sep-01-10 02:13 PM   #75 
  - I agree  joeglow3   Aug-31-10 12:13 PM   #12 
     - Dunno about individually  zipplewrath   Aug-31-10 12:39 PM   #21 
     - There is another problem.  JDPriestly   Sep-01-10 02:18 PM   #76 
        - I don't agree with "academic freedom" in grade schools.  joeglow3   Sep-01-10 02:41 PM   #78 
           - Academic freedom is especially important in grade schools today  JDPriestly   Sep-01-10 03:27 PM   #84 
              - I see that as a district issue  joeglow3   Sep-01-10 05:12 PM   #85 
  - Well, bully for Private Enterprise!  WinkyDink   Aug-31-10 02:41 PM   #40 
  - Still not the same thing.  Igel   Aug-31-10 09:35 PM   #53 
  - Having smart teachers is not the end goal. Having smart students is.  dkf   Aug-31-10 12:01 PM   #6 
  - Ummm, welcome to EVERY job in America  joeglow3   Aug-31-10 12:11 PM   #10 
  - My boss isn't graded on how smart I am  zipplewrath   Aug-31-10 12:40 PM   #22 
     - Your boss' job also isn't to improve your academic achievement.  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Aug-31-10 01:28 PM   #31 
     - My boss's job is to improve my technical achievement  joeglow3   Aug-31-10 10:14 PM   #55 
     - And students aren't employees. They are a product, as far as our education system is  uncommon   Sep-01-10 01:40 PM   #73 
  - Give the politicians the test first and PUBLISH THE RESULTS!  JCMach1   Sep-01-10 01:37 PM   #72 
  - THAT? Is the #1 Anti-Teacher Problem. Thank you for finally expressing it for one and all.  WinkyDink   Aug-31-10 02:40 PM   #39 
  - They have diagnostic value.  rucky   Sep-01-10 08:43 AM   #60 
  - Test the students....that IS the teacher's grade.  madfloridian   Aug-31-10 11:55 AM   #3 
  - Why not do it like corporations do?  Taverner   Aug-31-10 12:15 PM   #13 
  - That's actually similar to what is being done now,  MadHound   Aug-31-10 12:17 PM   #14 
  - I don't see a problem with the teachers then  Taverner   Aug-31-10 12:19 PM   #15 
  - There are bad teachers, no doubt,  MadHound   Aug-31-10 12:23 PM   #16 
  - We spend more than anyone in the world on education as a percentage of our GDP  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Aug-31-10 12:30 PM   #19 
     - Well, I would have to disagree with you,  MadHound   Aug-31-10 12:47 PM   #24 
     - I would certainly agree that the funding needs to be more equitable.  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Aug-31-10 01:16 PM   #27 
        - OK, thanks, you don't need to say one more thing,  MadHound   Aug-31-10 02:08 PM   #33 
           - Pray tell - what's so wrong with TFA?  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Aug-31-10 02:23 PM   #36 
              - Two years and they are out of the profession.  kwassa   Sep-01-10 10:58 AM   #63 
                 - On the first part in your title: So what?  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Sep-01-10 11:10 AM   #65 
                    - Consistency is important.  kwassa   Sep-01-10 11:43 AM   #67 
                       - Ideologue?  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Sep-01-10 12:00 PM   #68 
                          - This whole movement is about idealogy  kwassa   Sep-01-10 01:22 PM   #69 
                             - And the response to the reform movement is that teachers can't be blamed for anything.  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Sep-01-10 01:27 PM   #70 
                                - So you are in policy, but haven't taught yourself?  kwassa   Sep-01-10 02:49 PM   #80 
                                   - Prove your claims.  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Sep-01-10 02:53 PM   #81 
                                      - Your attitude is revealing.  kwassa   Sep-01-10 03:14 PM   #82 
                                         - Wow - you don't know what a fact is, do you?  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Sep-01-10 03:20 PM   #83 
                                         - You are misusing the word "anecdote".  kwassa   Sep-01-10 08:41 PM   #86 
                                         - "Anecdotal Evidence"  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Sep-02-10 08:23 AM   #91 
     - Oh we spend a lot  Taverner   Aug-31-10 05:51 PM   #51 
     - +1000  Recursion   Sep-01-10 02:47 PM   #79 
  - Administrators are overpaid and have to justify their salaries.  JDPriestly   Sep-01-10 02:23 PM   #77 
  - Yeah, and in most states, 95+% of teachers reach "satisfactory or better"  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Aug-31-10 12:26 PM   #17 
     - Wow, where are you getting these "facts"?  MadHound   Aug-31-10 12:49 PM   #25 
     - How about you provide a fact for a change?  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Aug-31-10 01:20 PM   #29 
     - You know what? I'll do you one better.  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Aug-31-10 01:53 PM   #32 
        - Thank you for using facts to back your argument.  Joe Fields   Aug-31-10 02:09 PM   #34 
        - I'd just love to get a single fact - bogus or otherwise - in return!  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Aug-31-10 02:25 PM   #37 
           - Check the bibliography in...  YvonneCa   Sep-01-10 08:55 PM   #87 
              - Diane Ravitch is a profiteering hack.  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Sep-02-10 08:26 AM   #93 
                 - I had a feeling you had heard...  YvonneCa   Sep-02-10 01:51 PM   #95 
                    - Yeah, and I think it's pretty clear how I feel about it and her. (nt)  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Sep-02-10 02:16 PM   #98 
        - You're right.  Igel   Aug-31-10 10:11 PM   #54 
     - It's not always the teacher's fault the students can't read  Taverner   Aug-31-10 03:44 PM   #48 
        - It's a teacher's fault for advancing them.  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Aug-31-10 03:53 PM   #49 
           - And again, anyone would get the same results given the conditions  Taverner   Aug-31-10 05:49 PM   #50 
           - Have YOU ever been to an inner city school?  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Sep-01-10 08:15 AM   #58 
              - Come to Oakland, CA  Taverner   Sep-01-10 10:28 AM   #61 
                 - Come to LA, DC, or NYC. (nt)  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Sep-01-10 11:03 AM   #64 
                    - Well at this point its he said he said  Taverner   Sep-01-10 11:12 AM   #66 
                       - ...  YvonneCa   Sep-01-10 08:59 PM   #89 
           - In 24 years as a teacher, I never had the power...  YvonneCa   Sep-01-10 08:57 PM   #88 
              - I call BS on that.  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Sep-02-10 08:25 AM   #92 
                 - Call it whatever you wish. It's the truth and...  YvonneCa   Sep-02-10 01:54 PM   #96 
  - Corporations use "students and parents"? Not even a close comparison.  WinkyDink   Aug-31-10 03:06 PM   #44 
     - Jeez, do I have to spell everything out for you?  Taverner   Aug-31-10 03:43 PM   #47 
  - The evaluation system for students is flawed  Starry Messenger   Aug-31-10 12:27 PM   #18 
  - There's no such thing as a perfect evaluation system for anything.  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Aug-31-10 12:32 PM   #20 
  - ASSUME...makes an...  YvonneCa   Sep-01-10 09:00 PM   #90 
     - I didn't even use the word "assume", but thanks for playing.  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Sep-02-10 08:26 AM   #94 
        - You made two assumptions without using the...  YvonneCa   Sep-02-10 02:05 PM   #97 
           - I never said or implied that evaluations aren't conducted.  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Sep-02-10 02:18 PM   #99 
              - I'm sick. Should have...  YvonneCa   Sep-02-10 03:13 PM   #101 
  - They don't want to hear that...  Imajika   Aug-31-10 12:54 PM   #26 
  - It is about wages and benefits and other kinds of resources for schools  EFerrari   Aug-31-10 01:26 PM   #30 
  - I strongly suspect that you are correct in your suspicions.  Joe Fields   Aug-31-10 02:12 PM   #35 
  - They real problem with evaluation  Scruffy1   Aug-31-10 02:36 PM   #38 
  - For your edification: THERE IS NO PRIVATE SECTOR EQUIVALENT TO TEACHING CHILDREN.  WinkyDink   Aug-31-10 02:43 PM   #42 
     - I thought Obama and Duncan were replacing everyone WITH private sector teachers  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Aug-31-10 03:03 PM   #43 
        - You are confused. The TfA teachers are still going to TEACH CHILDREN. There is no "industry"  WinkyDink   Aug-31-10 03:08 PM   #45 
           - I'm not confused by anything.  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Aug-31-10 03:14 PM   #46 
  - Teachers have been the biggest critics of the way children are evalutated.n/t  EFerrari   Aug-31-10 01:19 PM   #28 
  - So you want to compound the flawed evaluation of students...  LostInAnomie   Aug-31-10 06:01 PM   #52 
  - I'm just curious - does anyone other than me think parents have at least as much  dflprincess   Aug-31-10 10:16 PM   #56 
  - Anybody who knows anything about how standardized tests work.  LWolf   Sep-01-10 08:20 AM   #59 
  - Of course. But we all know this country is full of horrible parents  ecstatic   Sep-01-10 10:38 AM   #62 
  - unrecced for sheer stupidity  proud2BlibKansan   Aug-31-10 10:20 PM   #57 
  - I evaluate employees on a daily basis...  LanternWaste   Sep-01-10 01:33 PM   #71 
  - Evaluation has to be systematic.  JDPriestly   Sep-01-10 01:58 PM   #74 
  - By definition, a teacher is there to improve student achievement.  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Sep-02-10 02:20 PM   #100 
  - What if that was not what was measured? Under NCLB...  YvonneCa   Sep-02-10 03:27 PM   #103 
  - We've covered this ground before, Yvonne.  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Sep-03-10 04:52 AM   #108 
     - I come back to it because the debate is important. When you say things like this....  YvonneCa   Sep-03-10 12:45 PM   #113 
        - Edited to add this (brace yourself)...  YvonneCa   Sep-03-10 01:33 PM   #116 
  - Oh really?  End Of The Road   Sep-02-10 04:14 PM   #104 
     - No consequences for the student?!  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Sep-03-10 04:51 AM   #107 
        - Not for kids who already live in poverty. nt  End Of The Road   Sep-03-10 06:35 AM   #109 
        - Yeah, because consigning them to a life of birth-to-death poverty isn't a consequence.  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Sep-03-10 06:42 AM   #110 
           - So you're saying it's the teachers' job to end poverty?  End Of The Road   Sep-03-10 06:52 AM   #111 
              - /facepalm  Nicholas D Wolfwood   Sep-03-10 07:49 AM   #112 
                 - Key word here is 'impart'...  YvonneCa   Sep-03-10 12:54 PM   #115 
                    - And that was my original point, too.  End Of The Road   Sep-03-10 01:36 PM   #117 
                       - Nick is too ...  YvonneCa   Sep-03-10 01:41 PM   #118 
        - But 10 year old kids don't realize...  YvonneCa   Sep-03-10 12:48 PM   #114 
  - I do. Thank you for making this...  YvonneCa   Sep-02-10 03:18 PM   #102 
  - All I see lately are pea-brained jerks who have no business setting up teacher evaluation systems  Swamp Rat   Sep-02-10 05:19 PM   #106 

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