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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 12:12 AM
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59. Let me just adress slavery
Been doing a LOT of reading, and one of my surprises was just how little sense slavery actually made. Not only that, in the history of the early republic it was THE brake to the industrialization of the South. Yes, that came as a surprise.

But slavery was actually very expensive. Now cheap labor makes more sense. (And yes I found that in the literature). You see a slave I got to feed and cloth, but a worker I can fire, and don't have to worry about that.

It is more complex than that. But it was surprising... that said, some folks would like to go back to owning slaves, and I suspect there are other reasons for that. But yes, that was a shock... ah the more one reads...
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  -isn't slavery a compelling argument against "let the free market reign"? unblock  Jul-21-10 07:45 AM   #0 
  - Some rightwing libertarians defend the confederacy  Warren Stupidity   Jul-21-10 07:56 AM   #1 
  - right, there's a difference between slavery and indentured servitude in that sense.  unblock   Jul-21-10 09:27 AM   #9 
  - Slaves never entered into a contract.  Statistical   Jul-21-10 09:52 AM   #12 
  - Those are two related arguments, not one.  Warren Stupidity   Jul-21-10 06:28 PM   #37 
     - Slavery would never have ended.  Statistical   Jul-22-10 07:49 AM   #47 
        - Slavery dwindles with the tractor.  Warren Stupidity   Jul-22-10 07:53 AM   #49 
           - The only thing I can think of that potentially could have ended slavery non-violently ...  Statistical   Jul-22-10 08:25 AM   #50 
  - Some liberals too  mdmc   Jul-22-10 06:44 AM   #43 
     - That is a most dubious assertion.  Warren Stupidity   Jul-22-10 07:52 AM   #48 
  - Along with child labor, a "free" market means that your company is free  DailyGrind51   Jul-21-10 08:07 AM   #2 
  - I never thought of it that way but I think you have a good point.  drm604   Jul-21-10 08:16 AM   #3 
  - Capitalism does not recognize the difference between a wrench.....  FredStembottom   Jul-21-10 10:21 AM   #18 
  - A ref doesn't help  notesdev   Jul-21-10 08:22 AM   #4 
  - right, as i said, the government has to be able and willing to enforce the rules  unblock   Jul-21-10 09:11 AM   #7 
  - Generally speaking free markets don't violate fundemantal rights.  Statistical   Jul-21-10 08:26 AM   #5 
  - Properly regulated free markets may not violate fundamental rights,  drm604   Jul-21-10 08:39 AM   #6 
  - on the contrary, from an economic point of view, robbing falls into the same category  unblock   Jul-21-10 09:20 AM   #8 
     - "hence robbery and slavery cannot be reconciled with capitalism"  Statistical   Jul-21-10 09:44 AM   #11 
     - i think we're differing only on terminology  unblock   Jul-21-10 10:26 AM   #22 
        - That I agree with.  Statistical   Jul-21-10 10:40 AM   #25 
           - i've read adam smith, though college was a long time ago  unblock   Jul-21-10 11:09 AM   #30 
     - In a truly efficient market, whoever wants the item most will pay the most to acquire/defend it  Romulox   Jul-21-10 10:09 AM   #14 
        - No it isn't.  Statistical   Jul-21-10 10:12 AM   #16 
           - The distinction between economic violence and physical violence is bogus.  Romulox   Jul-21-10 10:18 AM   #17 
              - Just because someone does something doesn't mean that it is part of the system.  Statistical   Jul-21-10 10:26 AM   #21 
                 - The problem with prescriptive definitions is that you describe an ideal, a fantasy  Romulox   Jul-21-10 10:32 AM   #24 
                    - Free markets aren't the same thing as capitalism.  Statistical   Jul-21-10 10:45 AM   #27 
  - I wouldn't say that slavery is the absence of regulation  The2ndWheel   Jul-21-10 09:44 AM   #10 
  - In a free market, why shouldn't a man be free to use violence to get what he wants?  Romulox   Jul-21-10 10:04 AM   #13 
  - No.  Statistical   Jul-21-10 10:10 AM   #15 
     - You're using passive voice here.  Romulox   Jul-21-10 10:23 AM   #20 
        - Adam Smith even aknowledges that perfect free markets have never existed.  Statistical   Jul-21-10 10:32 AM   #23 
           - The point is that analytical model is self-contradictory  Romulox   Jul-21-10 10:41 AM   # 
              - Walmart has lower prices as a result of not paying that cost.  Statistical   Jul-21-10 10:51 AM   #28 
                 - Efficiency dictates that producers and consumers pay their own way  Romulox   Jul-21-10 04:47 PM   #35 
                    - It would be more efficient for each actor to purchase everything themselves?  Statistical   Jul-22-10 07:43 AM   #46 
                       - I said "pay", not "purchase". It's clear that "true capitalism" is as malleable as playdough-  Romulox   Jul-22-10 09:10 AM   #51 
                          - Of course they are free markets.  Statistical   Jul-22-10 09:52 AM   #52 
                             - In my prescriptive definition they are not.  Romulox   Jul-22-10 09:54 AM   #53 
  - Good example. It's child labor & the 7-day workweek combined.  DirkGently   Jul-21-10 10:21 AM   #19 
  - You have it backwards.  Nye Bevan   Jul-21-10 10:41 AM   #26 
  - Thanks. You said what I said in a lot less words.  Statistical   Jul-21-10 10:53 AM   #29 
  - what i'm saying is that the market won't be free unless the government ensures that it is so.  unblock   Jul-21-10 11:25 AM   #31 
     - A functioning free market requires secure property rights, enforceable contracts  Nye Bevan   Jul-21-10 11:40 AM   #32 
        - On that same token, one is better off starting a business in Germany or Sweden than the U.S.  brentspeak   Jul-22-10 10:06 AM   #54 
  - Yes, if slavery only exists in societies with "free markets". n/t  pampango   Jul-21-10 11:58 AM   #33 
  - the existence of government-supported slavery has nothing to do with this  unblock   Jul-21-10 12:02 PM   #34 
  - A free market is also a free labor market.  seattleblue   Jul-21-10 05:05 PM   #36 
  - left to their own devices, companies would and have engaged in slavery  unblock   Jul-21-10 09:01 PM   #38 
  - In economic history I have not seen evidence of that.  seattleblue   Jul-22-10 12:22 AM   #39 
     - slavery exists TODAY, right here in AMERICA:  unblock   Jul-22-10 06:42 AM   #42 
        - Your link had no link to the "2004 UC Berkeley study"  seattleblue   Jul-22-10 01:34 PM   #56 
  - The free labor market -- globalization -- has resulted in a new, modern-day feudalism  brentspeak   Jul-22-10 10:13 AM   #55 
     - I think most of that is correct  seattleblue   Jul-22-10 01:37 PM   #57 
  - The marriage of corporations and government is slavery  MikeNY   Jul-22-10 04:19 AM   #40 
  - all that consolidation happened under the guise of DEregulation  unblock   Jul-22-10 06:34 AM   #41 
     - True but lets not make a mistake about what makes govt possible  MikeNY   Jul-23-10 12:09 AM   #58 
  - An acutal free market would not allow slavery  PVnRT   Jul-22-10 06:48 AM   #44 
  - exactly! that's what i've been trying to say  unblock   Jul-22-10 07:07 AM   #45 
  - Let me just adress slavery  nadinbrzezinski   Jul-23-10 12:12 AM   #59 

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