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Reply #54: Two years ago, I got to look over the kidlet's CSAT Standardized test [View All]

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haele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-10 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #32
54. Two years ago, I got to look over the kidlet's CSAT Standardized test
for advancement to 10th grade.
5% of the social studies/civics, and reading comprehension questions were vague enough that the question had two possible correct answers out of the four, depending on what "learning level" you read the question at. Someone with a higher level education, or who read a different textbook series or even just read voraciously, could answer the question a different way Only one of the correct answers would be scored correctly, so if she picked the "wrong right answer", she'd get it wrong.
Guess that was meant to be tricky, to see which teachers and schools were teaching the proper curriculum, or which ones were being too, well, independent.
Out of the grammar and reading/writing comprehension questions, there were at least 2% that had no right answer.
A couple science questions looked as if they were being asked on the wrong level. Also, if the kid was taking a different science sequence, he or she could have easily not had a course that some of the questions were being asked about, and just have to rely on guesswork.
The math questions were pretty standard, not much you could mess up on those.
Overall test typos - about 2%.
Throw in a glitchy computer or an incorrect keycode for the test, and you can easily fail an honor student who was just having a bad test day - a 80% pass can easily become a 70% fail with a subjectively developed standardized test that has a full 10% development error built in.
And yes, they allow a certain percentage of test answer errors in these tests - even higher level tests like the ASVAB, SAT, and LSAT are allowed some version errors in their current incarnations. Especially since more and more developers depend on "Spellcheck" rather than pay a subject matter expert to go over the final draft in detail.
As for taking an important test several times and getting progressively worse? Well, we're getting into the area where it's not a matter of mental smarts but emotional smarts. Teenagers are notoriously "sensitive" - even the good ones that struggle with the dreaded esteem issues or with a higher functioning mental illness like some forms of OCD or autism spectrum can succumb to a failure loop reaction when they hit a nasty surprise like failing when they were expecting to at least pass. If you've never watched someone hit an emotional wall where they just can't pass that one multiple choice test that doesn't allow them to explore the edges of the question or give them any feedback, but could easily write seven 10-page essays on each of the subjects, then it's probably very easy to say "they don't know the course material well enough".
Standardized tests don't really measure anything but a rudimentary awareness of the subject under test and the ability to take a multiple choice test.

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  -Florida honor students can't graduate because of one test. FCAT determines it all. madfloridian  Jun-20-10 11:06 PM   #0 
  - it is entirely nuts, and is a system that needs to be demolished, as soon as possible  villager   Jun-20-10 11:09 PM   #1 
  - No way for locals to intervene. The test is God.  madfloridian   Jun-20-10 11:09 PM   #2 
  - children are not widgets  madrchsod   Jun-20-10 11:10 PM   #3 
  - I've known top educators that have quit education they are so fed up with what  RKP5637   Jun-20-10 11:10 PM   #4 
  - How are these students getting good grades if they can't pass a basic test with multiple tries?  LeftyMom   Jun-20-10 11:14 PM   #5 
  - Oh, these honor students are just plain dumb. Right?  madfloridian   Jun-21-10 12:00 AM   #14 
  - As the poster below said - taking a test proves you can  enlightenment   Jun-21-10 12:17 AM   #23 
  - It's not at all uncommon for students to have trouble passing standardized tests  proud2BlibKansan   Jun-21-10 12:56 AM   #43 
  - Sometimes grades are based on how much a teacher likes you  ecstatic   Jun-21-10 09:05 AM   #72 
  - I've seen it happen several times.  knitter4democracy   Jun-21-10 09:13 AM   #73 
  - Some students have brain freezes when confronted with standardized testing.  Gormy Cuss   Jun-21-10 09:25 AM   #76 
  - As a college professor once told me, "tests only prove  johnaries   Jun-20-10 11:17 PM   #6 
  - It almost makes you wonder why even bother with grades anymore  bluestateguy   Jun-20-10 11:18 PM   #7 
  - It has been reported that Arne Duncan  Angry Dragon   Jun-20-10 11:27 PM   #8 
  - Now that is funny.  madfloridian   Jun-21-10 12:48 AM   #39 
  - This reeks of grade puffery  Taitertots   Jun-20-10 11:46 PM   #9 
  - Oh c'mon...nobody's going to be an Honor Student solely on grade puffery,  Ken Burch   Jun-20-10 11:48 PM   #11 
  - There can be both puffery and the need for accountability in the testing  Taitertots   Jun-20-10 11:59 PM   #13 
     - You're assuming there's nothing weird with the tests.  Ken Burch   Jun-21-10 12:02 AM   #16 
     - When you argue with one using the words "grade puffery" waste your time.  madfloridian   Jun-21-10 12:04 AM   #17 
     - Yeah, that person is clearly a victim of "thought puffery".  Ken Burch   Jun-21-10 12:05 AM   #19 
        - Interesting turn of the phrase.  madfloridian   Jun-21-10 12:10 AM   #21 
        - Good one.  erodriguez   Jun-21-10 12:03 PM   #100 
     - Your assuming something is weird with the test when the student failed multiple times  Taitertots   Jun-21-10 12:17 AM   #24 
        - You haven't SEEN the FCAT.  Ken Burch   Jun-21-10 12:19 AM   #27 
           - Every other person in the graduating class managed to pass it  Taitertots   Jun-21-10 12:38 AM   #35 
           - You are WAY too invested in proving this kid didn't deserve good grades.  Ken Burch   Jun-21-10 12:41 AM   #36 
           - So invested that I won't do anything other than post on a message board about it  Taitertots   Jun-21-10 02:02 AM   #60 
           - How do you know that every other student passed?  proud2BlibKansan   Jun-21-10 07:41 AM   #67 
              - Everyone who got a diploma passed it n/t  Taitertots   Jun-21-10 10:31 AM   #84 
                 - But is that everyone else in the class?  proud2BlibKansan   Jun-21-10 10:51 AM   #88 
                    - Do you consider people who didn't get diplomas part of the graduating class? n/t  Taitertots   Jun-21-10 11:03 AM   #94 
                       - I consider everyone enrolled in the class to be part of the class  proud2BlibKansan   Jun-21-10 12:56 PM   #107 
           - No, everyone can know what's on it, just use the Intertubes..  snooper2   Jun-21-10 09:31 AM   #77 
     - I know lots of people who have problems with harder multiple choice tests - because they overthink  haele   Jun-21-10 12:18 AM   #25 
        - I have a son that read too much into questions.  madfloridian   Jun-21-10 12:22 AM   #28 
        - Two masters degrees, he must have passed a lot of multiple choice tests  Taitertots   Jun-21-10 12:56 AM   #42 
           - There are NO FCAT-type tests after high school  Ken Burch   Jun-21-10 12:57 AM   #44 
              - MCAT, LSAT, GRE, GMAT n/t  Taitertots   Jun-21-10 02:25 AM   #61 
                 - GMAT drove me nuts...  onpatrol98   Jun-21-10 02:51 AM   #63 
                 - Shit, try taking a CCIE in voice or routing  snooper2   Jun-21-10 09:37 AM   #79 
                 - All tests that are designed to assess ABILITY -  enlightenment   Jun-21-10 01:52 PM   #110 
        - A lot of people say that but didn't know the material well enough  Taitertots   Jun-21-10 12:29 AM   #32 
        - And you can't see that that could have been the case with THIS kid?  Ken Burch   Jun-21-10 01:06 AM   #46 
        - He didn't know the material well enough and the test was not easy?  Taitertots   Jun-21-10 01:17 AM   #49 
           - What I meant is, it seems to be really, REALLY important to you to defend the test  Ken Burch   Jun-21-10 01:19 AM   #50 
              - It is so important that if my computer were across the room I would be doing nothing about it  Taitertots   Jun-21-10 01:29 AM   #53 
                 - It's just hard to credit your loyalty to the testing corporations.  Ken Burch   Jun-21-10 01:33 AM   #55 
                    - That is collusion, not grade puffery  Taitertots   Jun-21-10 01:42 AM   #57 
        - Two years ago, I got to look over the kidlet's CSAT Standardized test  haele   Jun-21-10 01:32 AM   #54 
        - Of course, they make the kids go over and over the questions  Mariana   Jun-21-10 02:02 AM   #59 
           - Which is also why it's said  BadgerKid   Jun-21-10 05:26 AM   #66 
  - I so disagree. Grades and actions during the years are vital...  madfloridian   Jun-20-10 11:50 PM   #12 
  - If the kid was AA, this could be the State of Florida doing unto the kid  Ken Burch   Jun-21-10 12:04 AM   #18 
  - Grades and actions don't matter if they didn't learn the material  Taitertots   Jun-21-10 12:09 AM   #20 
     - Again, why are you ASSUMING here that the FCAT results  Ken Burch   Jun-21-10 12:23 AM   #30 
        - They failed multiple chances  Taitertots   Jun-21-10 12:50 AM   #40 
        - You are just convinced the kid is stupid, and nothing will change your narrow view.  Ken Burch   Jun-21-10 12:56 AM   #41 
           - Produce the tiniest shred of evidence for discrimination before comparing them to Malcolm X  Taitertots   Jun-21-10 01:07 AM   #47 
              - The only possible reason I can come up with for your intransigence here  Ken Burch   Jun-21-10 01:08 AM   #48 
                 - As far as I know they have not even released their race  Taitertots   Jun-21-10 01:22 AM   #51 
                    - Why do you assume the tests prove anything at all?  Ken Burch   Jun-21-10 01:24 AM   #52 
                       - They prove the ability to recall and apply what they have learned  Taitertots   Jun-21-10 01:47 AM   #58 
                          - No. Because grades are assigned by actual human beings  Ken Burch   Jun-21-10 03:05 AM   #64 
                             - Tests were created and administered by human beings  Taitertots   Jun-21-10 10:27 AM   #83 
        - "...but ALL of them?" - yep  notesdev   Jun-21-10 02:37 AM   #62 
  - Grade puffery?  proud2BlibKansan   Jun-21-10 12:47 AM   #38 
  - This poster is a perfect example of the Cult of Test Objectivity.  Odin2005   Jun-21-10 08:04 AM   #69 
  - Thank you for telling me what I believe, instead of asking me  Taitertots   Jun-21-10 10:41 AM   #86 
  - Precisely what leads you to that conclusion?  LanternWaste   Jun-21-10 11:59 AM   #97 
  - The whole "the test is what matters" thing is based on the ludicrous belief  Ken Burch   Jun-20-10 11:47 PM   #10 
  - Tonight I learned that pride in good work and grades is "grade puffery."  madfloridian   Jun-21-10 12:02 AM   #15 
  - To clarify to those who love the words "grade puffery"....honor students  madfloridian   Jun-21-10 12:14 AM   #22 
  - It's all about the Obama administration taking it out on students and teachers everywhere  Ken Burch   Jun-21-10 12:18 AM   #26 
  - OK,  minavasht   Jun-21-10 12:23 AM   #29 
  - Oh, yeh, buddy. Keep all those honor students out of college.  madfloridian   Jun-21-10 12:26 AM   #31 
  - Why are so many posters part of the "Cult of The Test"?  Ken Burch   Jun-21-10 12:31 AM   #34 
  - Here  minavasht   Jun-21-10 11:23 AM   #95 
     - Get real?  madfloridian   Jun-21-10 12:03 PM   #99 
        - These are the problems  minavasht   Jun-21-10 12:13 PM   #101 
           - Stunning...  madfloridian   Jun-21-10 01:05 PM   #108 
  - Most of the time in college, you don't take STANDARDIZED tests.  Ken Burch   Jun-21-10 12:30 AM   #33 
     - Good point.  madfloridian   Jun-21-10 12:42 AM   #37 
     - much of the time you DO take standardized or group tests if it's important  pitohui   Jun-21-10 10:49 AM   #87 
  - I recall the 'test teaching sessions' when we were all forced to stop learning  jp11   Jun-21-10 01:05 AM   #45 
  - Yep. We had to quit teaching Science and Social Studies in January  rucky   Jun-21-10 01:37 AM   #56 
  - I taught in that FCAT madness.  mfcorey1   Jun-21-10 03:19 AM   #65 
  - Last time I checked getting into college requires scoring well on another standardized test : SAT.  Statistical   Jun-21-10 07:58 AM   #68 
  - some people hate standardized testing  Johonny   Jun-21-10 10:20 AM   #82 
  - I hope none of the teachers defending these kids teach statistics.  Bill McBlueState   Jun-21-10 08:12 AM   #70 
  - S/he may be horrible with taking tests... or s/he may not know the material  ecstatic   Jun-21-10 09:16 AM   #74 
  - There are many things wrong with the test.  knitter4democracy   Jun-21-10 09:18 AM   #75 
     - see, that's the misconception I knew people would have  Bill McBlueState   Jun-21-10 09:32 AM   #78 
        - Your sample would be biased  Taitertots   Jun-21-10 10:57 AM   #90 
        - It depends on the test--the ACT does well in that comparison.  knitter4democracy   Jun-21-10 12:28 PM   #103 
  - How are they honor students if they can't pass this test?  Tailormyst   Jun-21-10 08:15 AM   #71 
  - Check my post 77...everything is one the intertubes...  snooper2   Jun-21-10 09:42 AM   #80 
     - Thank you so much for posting that.  Tailormyst   Jun-21-10 10:59 AM   #93 
        - I think it's because...  LanternWaste   Jun-21-10 12:02 PM   #98 
  - To conclude...too many in this thread discount a student's school career  madfloridian   Jun-21-10 09:45 AM   #81 
  - the young man didn't bother w. all the essays, homework, classes in the first case  pitohui   Jun-21-10 10:54 AM   #89 
     - How pathetic this discussion board has become so dismissive...  madfloridian   Jun-21-10 10:59 AM   #92 
     - I am a teacher, and I call b.s.  knitter4democracy   Jun-21-10 12:40 PM   #105 
  - "honor" students who can't pass a simple multiple choice test --educational fraud  pitohui   Jun-21-10 10:40 AM   #85 
  - It's not a simple test. Take a look at one.  knitter4democracy   Jun-21-10 12:33 PM   #104 
  - Not new  zipplewrath   Jun-21-10 10:58 AM   #91 
  - Education for profit  hapkidogal   Jun-21-10 11:49 AM   #96 
  - The biggest problem which I have as a FL parent  Dappleganger   Jun-21-10 12:15 PM   #102 
  - Well, it's not like the FCAT is culturally biased or anything  KamaAina   Jun-21-10 12:51 PM   #106 
  - The United States is increasinly getting into a exam-focused country.  Jkid   Jun-21-10 01:17 PM   #109 

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