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Reply #178: And again someone blaming the victim compares saying, "no" to something more severe. [View All]

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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-30-10 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #90
178. And again someone blaming the victim compares saying, "no" to something more severe.
I'm starting to wonder if anyone supporting the school actually bothered to read the article.

The web page she "published" (on Facebook) was a private profile that contained a link to a lengthy poll in which she answered "no" to "do you believe in God?" The school hired her knowing full well that she wasn't Catholic, so there was no expectation that she adhere to the religion outside of her job.

The web page she "published" (on Atheist Nexus) was a linked article about Federally funded prayer research. Again, the school hired her knowing full well that she wasn't Catholic, so there was no expectation that she adhere to the religion outside of her job.

The question has never been "can," but "should." It's a matter of ethics--was the school right to fire her, not whether they were within their legal rights.
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  -Math teacher fired from catholic school because she facebooked that she didn't believe in God Liberal_in_LA  May-28-10 05:56 PM   #0 
  - A Catholic school is all about belief in a catholic god. Goodbye,atheist teacher.  The Wielding Truth   May-28-10 06:02 PM   #1 
  - So you're fine with firing someone for their private beliefs?  laconicsax   May-28-10 06:51 PM   #16 
  - Certainly.  elleng   May-28-10 07:00 PM   #26 
  - How far do you extend that opinion?  laconicsax   May-28-10 07:11 PM   #31 
  - What is TAUGHT is most important.  elleng   May-28-10 09:19 PM   #45 
  - So what were the students taught? That those who believe differently are to be shunned...  Cleobulus   May-29-10 01:50 AM   #101 
  - if the teeacher does not uphold the ideals ( however fucked up they may be) of the private school...  Tailormyst   May-28-10 09:38 PM   #55 
     - I guess there is such a thing as thought-crime. n/t  laconicsax   May-29-10 12:22 AM   #82 
     - actually...  Caliman73   May-29-10 12:56 AM   #90 
        - Good analysis; thanks.  elleng   May-29-10 01:04 AM   #92 
        - And again someone blaming the victim compares saying, "no" to something more severe.  laconicsax   May-30-10 12:31 AM   #178 
     - Right. And the particular 'ideal' she does not 'uphold' is CENTRAL.  elleng   May-29-10 12:43 AM   #87 
        - The "fucked up" part was not aimed at the one in this case  Tailormyst   May-29-10 09:54 AM   #115 
  - They have the right to do it, but is it the right thing to do?  TommyO   May-28-10 07:21 PM   #37 
  - Certainly teaches a lesson, that is, don't be STUPID about beliefs.  elleng   May-28-10 09:22 PM   #46 
     - Yes, by all means don't be honest - be covert. Don't Ask-Don't Tell? eom  ShortnFiery   May-28-10 11:57 PM   #62 
     - You got that wrong, with no reason to do so;  elleng   May-29-10 12:08 AM   #76 
        - Why do some of you folks always take "authority's side" over the afflicted?  ShortnFiery   May-29-10 12:10 AM   #78 
           - Fuck'em, its "Holy Mother Church" they must protect it...  Cleobulus   May-29-10 12:16 AM   #80 
           - Some facts, just to fuck up your perception  JNelson6563   May-30-10 07:14 AM   #191 
              - They didn't ask, she didn't tell.  PassingFair   May-30-10 10:54 AM   #203 
           - FACEBOOK!  elleng   May-29-10 12:39 AM   #84 
           - The fact is, it doesn't matter, if she wasn't disruptive in the classroom, what business...  Cleobulus   May-29-10 12:41 AM   #85 
              - She has opened to very public discussion  elleng   May-29-10 01:02 AM   #91 
                 - I would agree if she was in charge of religious instruction...  Cleobulus   May-29-10 01:04 AM   #94 
           - You favor AZ's wretched 1070 law  Seneca   May-29-10 01:15 AM   #96 
           - Facebook isn't private  marions ghost   May-29-10 07:46 AM   #109 
           - I find it disturbing too how so many blame the victim. Conservatives do this 100% of the time...  AnArmyVeteran   May-29-10 12:28 PM   #133 
              - Lemme tell you sump'n!  timtom   May-29-10 06:38 PM   #144 
                 - Bad example, it wasn't illegal to be a communist, even in the Marines...  Cleobulus   May-29-10 08:40 PM   #156 
                 - I was not even an American citizen when I became a US soldier...  AnArmyVeteran   May-30-10 01:13 AM   #182 
     - Certainly teaches something else, Catholic Beliefs are toxic, bigoted, and without...  Cleobulus   May-28-10 11:57 PM   #63 
  - Following your logic then a lunch counter in the South can DENY service to both ...  ShortnFiery   May-28-10 11:56 PM   #61 
  - Good job of twisting things around, Shorty;  elleng   May-29-10 12:48 AM   #89 
     - I was extending your logic. Not disrespect, request consideration? eom  ShortnFiery   May-29-10 01:31 AM   #98 
        - 'Apology' accepted, Shorty;  elleng   May-29-10 01:40 AM   #100 
  - Some of the people's tax money goes to support of private schools.  olegramps   May-29-10 08:31 AM   #112 
  - Prolly not; this is a Catholic school.  elleng   May-30-10 12:50 PM   #214 
  - Oh yeah what law? Certainly not this one.  Xicano   May-30-10 03:45 AM   #187 
     - Not at all relevant.  elleng   May-30-10 12:55 PM   #215 
  - It's a religious school...............  Tailormyst   May-28-10 09:35 PM   #53 
  - Do Not whine, Sir, When a Catholic is Fired For Going To Mass On Sunday  The Magistrate   May-28-10 06:58 PM   #23 
  - Catholic math: 1 god divided by 3 = 1; atheists just don't get it  REP   May-29-10 12:43 AM   #88 
  - ok... can public schools kick out religious teachers?  fascisthunter   May-29-10 10:51 AM   #123 
  - A Private school is a business.  ZombieHorde   May-29-10 08:17 PM   #145 
  - It's a job as a math teacher. If that's the case, I want Catholic teachers fired from public schools  readmoreoften   May-29-10 08:32 PM   #149 
  - +1  laconicsax   May-30-10 12:12 AM   #177 
  - The celebratory tone has been noted! "Woo hoo! We score! Yankees suck! Go team!"  Commie Pinko Dirtbag   May-30-10 11:43 AM   #211 
  - private school. thinking that was stupid, if she wanted to keep her job.  seabeyond   May-28-10 06:04 PM   #2 
  - Go teach in one of the godless public schools  treestar   May-28-10 06:04 PM   #3 
  - The public schools could probably use her n/t  Mimosa   May-28-10 06:53 PM   #19 
     - +1000  NeoGreen   May-28-10 07:07 PM   #30 
  - Not a very bright teacher (nt)  The Straight Story   May-28-10 06:06 PM   #4 
  - Smarter than all the others in the school.  HiFructosePronSyrup   May-28-10 06:09 PM   #8 
     - Dumb enough to post it on FB, and are you saying belief in god = person is stupid? (ie, is Obama a  The Straight Story   May-28-10 06:11 PM   #9 
     - lulz  HiFructosePronSyrup   May-28-10 06:11 PM   #10 
     - Why is that dumb? Dumb ass religionists proclaim their belief in fairy tales all the time without  Raineyb   May-28-10 06:56 PM   #20 
     - It IS the school's business.  timtom   May-28-10 07:24 PM   #39 
     - There's a significant difference.  laconicsax   May-29-10 12:34 AM   #83 
     - But if that person were stupid enough to post at FR  timtom   May-29-10 01:31 AM   #99 
        - Exactly  michreject   May-29-10 09:18 AM   #113 
        - That's an awful lot of ifs.  laconicsax   May-29-10 02:21 PM   #141 
           - It's worse than that. They aren't just controlling the private lives of their employees...  PassingFair   May-30-10 10:59 AM   #205 
     - No it's not the school's business. They don't own her. What she believes on her own  Raineyb   May-29-10 09:54 AM   #114 
        - Oh, please.  timtom   May-29-10 12:40 PM   #134 
     - you are wrong. nt  seabeyond   May-28-10 09:31 PM   #49 
     - No the church is overreaching and you think it's acceptable for an employer  Raineyb   May-29-10 09:55 AM   #116 
        - if part of the employee contract is to be a cathollic in an all catholic environment and you are not  seabeyond   May-29-10 09:58 AM   #117 
           - Right and if said church has to SPY on its employees to do so then that's fine too right?  Raineyb   May-29-10 10:00 AM   #119 
           - Anyone else doing this type of shit you'd be .... well, no, i wouldnt. you are wrong on that too.  seabeyond   May-29-10 10:48 AM   #122 
           - Being Catholic WAS NOT a part of her contract. They knew she wasn't Catholic when they hired her.  smokey nj   May-29-10 10:34 AM   #121 
           - thru out my posts i have been careful to say christian, and not limit to catholic  seabeyond   May-29-10 10:52 AM   #124 
              - My sisters had Jewish teachers for several subjects at the Catholic high school  smokey nj   May-29-10 10:59 AM   #127 
                 - good for them. diversity. i am a believer. nt  seabeyond   May-29-10 11:49 AM   #130 
                    - My point was Catholic schools do not have a problem with hiring  smokey nj   May-29-10 01:16 PM   #138 
           - Oh, you've read her contract?  PassingFair   May-30-10 11:00 AM   #206 
              - i think the very fact i used "if" states i have not read and do not know. hence.... if. nt  seabeyond   May-30-10 01:04 PM   #217 
     - No, but religion is pervasive throughout the curriculum and school day.  knitter4democracy   May-28-10 09:35 PM   #54 
        - This starting class with prayer thing - I never expreienced it  Book Lover   May-30-10 10:44 AM   #202 
     - Yet Christians are allowed to say whatever they want about atheists  Hello_Kitty   May-29-10 10:54 PM   #173 
     - really? i expected better from you....  madrchsod   May-28-10 06:13 PM   #12 
        - why? bah hahaha. nt  seabeyond   May-29-10 10:53 AM   #125 
        - Well, now you know better. nt  spoony   May-29-10 11:36 AM   #129 
  - As if we didnt need enough reasons to *NOT* use Facebook.  Initech   May-28-10 06:07 PM   #5 
  - "The main thing is that she stated she didn't believe in God,"  Sebastian Doyle   May-28-10 06:07 PM   #6 
  - if the school could find it  qazplm   May-28-10 06:15 PM   #13 
     - She took steps to prevent students from finding it.  laconicsax   May-28-10 06:58 PM   #22 
     - I'd put money on the fact that they did.  knitter4democracy   May-28-10 09:30 PM   #48 
  - DON'T use facebook if you have a job, it's as simple as that  ck4829   May-28-10 06:09 PM   #7 
  - Problem is that you need facebook when even getting a job.  Jkid   May-28-10 06:22 PM   #14 
     - Hahaha...good one. (n/t)  WorseBeforeBetter   May-29-10 01:04 AM   #93 
  - that was`t the smartest thing to do...  madrchsod   May-28-10 06:12 PM   #11 
  - I don't know that I'd want someone that dumb teaching my kids  Kookaburra   May-28-10 06:23 PM   #15 
  - Did you even read the article?  laconicsax   May-28-10 07:00 PM   #24 
     - Nah, I didn't read it  Kookaburra   May-28-10 07:20 PM   #36 
  - Sounds reasonable  slackmaster   May-28-10 06:53 PM   #17 
  - You left out the other half of the story.  laconicsax   May-28-10 06:53 PM   #18 
  - That's just shows how vindictive the School can be, gotta love those "Christian values"! n/t  Cleobulus   May-29-10 12:17 AM   #81 
  - Would have been fine though, if it was a Science teacher saying the earth is only 6000 years old.  JBoy   May-28-10 06:56 PM   #21 
  - Exactly.  laconicsax   May-28-10 07:05 PM   #28 
  - Catholic schools would probably frown on a science teacher who thought that  struggle4progress   May-28-10 07:25 PM   #40 
  - No, new pope believes it.  KansasVoter   May-28-10 07:54 PM   #42 
     - Got a link for current Pope believing world 6000 years old?  struggle4progress   May-28-10 08:31 PM   #44 
  - Not a single Catholic high school science teacher I have ever known says that.  knitter4democracy   May-28-10 09:32 PM   #50 
  - This is common for Catholic schools if you say you don't believe in God..  NotThisTime   May-28-10 07:00 PM   #25 
  - I knew my young daughter didn't belong in the Catholic Elementary School  ShortnFiery   May-29-10 12:04 AM   #72 
  - So where're the anti-bigotry people on this one?  laconicsax   May-28-10 07:04 PM   #27 
  - part of the school is the belief in god. if you dont believe, you dont go to that school  seabeyond   May-28-10 09:33 PM   #51 
  - Of course its bigotry, to claim otherwise is stupid, besides, she's was a MATH teacher...  Cleobulus   May-28-10 11:50 PM   #58 
     - in a private christian school it has as much a part of her teaching as math.  seabeyond   May-28-10 11:57 PM   #64 
        - I went to a Catholic school, oddly enough my Math teacher was a Priest...  Cleobulus   May-29-10 12:00 AM   #66 
           - my kids went to a christian school and they talked about god and prayed in all the classes....  seabeyond   May-29-10 12:02 AM   #68 
              - Neither did this one...  Cleobulus   May-29-10 12:04 AM   #70 
                 - no you cant speak for all schools. but bottom line, your school had a teacher that was like minded  seabeyond   May-29-10 12:05 AM   #73 
                    - Not all of our teachers went to mass(not all were clergy, indeed only a few)...  Cleobulus   May-29-10 12:08 AM   #77 
  - Apparently bigotry is okay if the church does it.  Raineyb   May-29-10 09:59 AM   #118 
  - or NOW, NAACP, etc (nt)  The Straight Story   May-29-10 08:38 PM   #152 
  - As was once said to me...  laconicsax   May-30-10 02:58 AM   #185 
  - I don't think it's even been established that the teacher WASN'T acting in private...  JHB   May-30-10 08:37 AM   #195 
  - We are here, gagging at the overwhelming amount of bigotry...  Jamastiene   May-30-10 09:21 AM   #198 
  - I can't imagine religion comes up in math class, unless they're measuring things in cubits.  LeftyMom   May-28-10 07:06 PM   #29 
  - Speaking of religious math  Canuckistanian   May-28-10 07:17 PM   #34 
  - You won't call it well-reasoned (nor do I), but the answer to that is  Book Lover   May-30-10 10:39 AM   #201 
  - That was DUzylicious  Seneca   May-29-10 01:17 AM   #97 
  - Of course I believe in God...  NeoGreen   May-28-10 07:12 PM   #32 
  - Operative term: "CATHOLIC." Take it or leave it, but IT ain't changing.  WinkyDink   May-28-10 07:14 PM   #33 
  - If they don't receive any public funds  Dappleganger   May-28-10 07:21 PM   #38 
  - Is our children failing?  SalmonChantedEvening   May-28-10 07:19 PM   #35 
  - Molest a child  Politicalboi   May-28-10 07:45 PM   #41 
  - Good idea. They should fire every employee who hasn't raped a child.  jgraz   May-29-10 10:41 PM   #168 
  - is this the same organization that would collectively scream bloody murder...  mike_c   May-28-10 08:16 PM   #43 
  - As a Catholic high school English teacher, all I can say is,  knitter4democracy   May-28-10 09:27 PM   #47 
  - I think that's fair.  Renew Deal   May-28-10 09:34 PM   #52 
  - Should businesses be allowed to discriminate against race and gender as well?  ZombieHorde   May-29-10 08:30 PM   #148 
  - It's pretty amusing how Christians being forced  JoeyT   May-28-10 11:18 PM   #56 
  - Religious people are allowed to be assholic bigots, non-religious people are not...  Cleobulus   May-28-10 11:49 PM   #57 
     - should an anti abortionist be able to be a pharmacist? her religious beliefs require she not  seabeyond   May-29-10 12:00 AM   #65 
     - Since when do you need to believe in God or Jesus to teach MATH? n/t  Cleobulus   May-29-10 12:02 AM   #67 
        - another ridiculous argument. yet you are so good at calling people names....  seabeyond   May-29-10 12:03 AM   #69 
           - Why?  Cleobulus   May-29-10 12:04 AM   #71 
              - this is really that hard for you. the private christian schools want like minded  seabeyond   May-29-10 12:07 AM   #74 
                 - Hmm, what do you mean by that, that they want to brainwash and indoctrinate...  Cleobulus   May-29-10 12:12 AM   #79 
                    - when my children went to private christian, a rule, all families must go to church once a week.  seabeyond   May-29-10 07:57 AM   #110 
                       - "i am very much christian in behavior", this statement makes no sense...  Cleobulus   May-29-10 08:36 PM   #150 
                          - not that there is any bias in you view.  seabeyond   May-29-10 09:05 PM   #161 
                             - OK, fine, give me an example of a Christian behavior that you do. n/t  Cleobulus   May-29-10 09:28 PM   #164 
     - Apparently. n/t  Raineyb   May-29-10 10:02 AM   #120 
     - what if... christians were to call atheists simplistic minded fucking douchebags....  seabeyond   May-29-10 01:02 PM   #135 
        - If the atheists in question were to discriminate against others due to their beliefs...  Cleobulus   May-29-10 08:39 PM   #153 
           - good little flip flop that is. no, it was a blind insulting outrage to christians....  seabeyond   May-29-10 09:03 PM   #159 
              - That's your unwarranted assumption, you can piss and moan all you want...  Cleobulus   May-29-10 09:13 PM   #163 
                 - you... are the one pissin and moanin, and a bet more. i am not the one with issues. nt  seabeyond   May-29-10 09:45 PM   #165 
  - How DARE she act like Mother Teresa who, for years, had lost her faith in God.  ShortnFiery   May-28-10 11:51 PM   #59 
  - But Mother Teresa was an independent contractor. :-)  WinkyDink   May-29-10 07:13 AM   #105 
     - ...  ShortnFiery   May-30-10 08:41 AM   #196 
  - BTW, she denied being an atheist.  onager   May-28-10 11:51 PM   #60 
  - Wow! That's one intolerant Catholic School.  ShortnFiery   May-29-10 12:08 AM   #75 
     - It's a religion with tenets and beliefs. By definition it is not secular.  WinkyDink   May-29-10 07:13 AM   #106 
  - I'll just say Facebook and all of that is kinda the devil because  TheKentuckian   May-29-10 12:41 AM   #86 
  - I keep daring my Catholic in-laws to de-friend me  Seneca   May-29-10 01:10 AM   #95 
  - Once again, we see Catholicism embracing  coyote   May-29-10 02:09 AM   #102 
  - Perhaps you think a religion is just a social club but wih fewer tenets?  WinkyDink   May-29-10 07:14 AM   #107 
  - I'm kind of the same, except that I'm agnostic  davidpdx   May-29-10 06:32 AM   #103 
  - That would be like firing a public school teacher who didn't believe in "government"!  DailyGrind51   May-29-10 07:10 AM   #104 
  - It wouldn't be anything "like" the sort. A secular school requires no belief whatsoever.  WinkyDink   May-29-10 07:20 AM   #108 
     - I take it you're not a teacher?  DailyGrind51   May-29-10 01:12 PM   #136 
        - I take it you can't read an entire post?  WinkyDink   May-30-10 07:13 AM   #190 
           - And missed the point of mine!  DailyGrind51   May-30-10 10:02 AM   #200 
  - Well, maybe the teacher isn't so swift?  Darth_Kitten   May-29-10 08:21 AM   #111 
  - But priests don't put their pedophilia on facebook, but that doesn't make them less abusive to kids  AnArmyVeteran   May-29-10 11:34 AM   #128 
  - What hypocrites Catholic leaders are. They condone pedophilia, yet hate atheists...  AnArmyVeteran   May-29-10 10:59 AM   #126 
  - Ya think? You can also be fired from your job at coke-a-cola for drinking pepsi.  Wizard777   May-29-10 12:18 PM   #131 
  - So if you need a life-saving drug, but work for another drug company, should you just die?  AnArmyVeteran   May-29-10 12:27 PM   #132 
  - If Pfizer makes the same drug. Then yes. Because this is Merck's next commercial.  Wizard777   May-29-10 01:15 PM   #137 
     - You missed every intent of my post. No one destroys a brand by using someone else's.  AnArmyVeteran   May-29-10 02:09 PM   #139 
        - Exxon is a bad analogy. The name on the pump just tells you who's getting the money.  Wizard777   May-29-10 02:51 PM   #143 
           - Well, I'm just glad the world you envision isn't a reality (yet)...  AnArmyVeteran   May-30-10 10:54 AM   #204 
              - Actually you're the one proposing oppression.  Wizard777   May-30-10 11:37 AM   #210 
  - And your totalitarian capitalist ideas belong on a progressive website because why?  readmoreoften   May-29-10 08:39 PM   #154 
     - 'Big tent'  laconicsax   May-30-10 12:37 AM   #180 
     - So basically your saying the DEMOCRATIC Underground should be forced to hire or retain  Wizard777   May-30-10 11:56 AM   #212 
  - Well I do understand the church's position. However, what class was she teaching? If she is  southernyankeebelle   May-29-10 02:20 PM   #140 
  - I still don't understand how such an impure religion can impose a purity test on others...  AnArmyVeteran   May-29-10 02:36 PM   #142 
  - The first word of the OP is "Math"  readmoreoften   May-29-10 08:40 PM   #155 
  - I am an atheist  hyphenate   May-29-10 08:21 PM   #146 
  - Should private businesses be allowed to discriminate based on race, religion, gender, etc.? nt  ZombieHorde   May-29-10 08:28 PM   #147 
  - They can, and do.  KonaKane   May-29-10 08:45 PM   #158 
  - Agree. It's just plain stupid to accept a job at a religious school...  KonaKane   May-29-10 08:43 PM   #157 
     - Exactly n/t  tammywammy   May-29-10 09:05 PM   #160 
  - Catholics don't believe in LGBT people either. Should gay math teachers be fired  readmoreoften   May-29-10 08:37 PM   #151 
  - I bet to a lot of people here, yes, and they would rejoice that there's a "Gay free zone"...  Cleobulus   May-29-10 09:46 PM   #166 
  - Saddly, I have to go with the Catholic Church on this onw...  brooklynite   May-29-10 09:09 PM   #162 
  - If this is a private institution, they can fire anybody for any reason. n/t  liquid diamond   May-29-10 09:47 PM   #167 
  - Wrong.  jgraz   May-29-10 10:45 PM   #170 
     - They wouldn't be that stupid to STATE that as the reason. They  liquid diamond   May-30-10 12:32 AM   #179 
        - So your answer is no, they couldn't fire all their black employees  jgraz   May-30-10 01:05 AM   #181 
           - I swear there is a right wing contingent here.  Jamastiene   May-30-10 09:24 AM   #199 
  - Bigger question: why the FUCK is the Catholic Church still allowed to teach children?  jgraz   May-29-10 10:44 PM   #169 
  - +1  smokey nj   May-29-10 10:46 PM   #171 
  - BINGO ! Thread is Over...We have a BINGO !  RagAss   May-29-10 10:52 PM   #172 
  - Oh the pain...the pain  Bluebear   May-29-10 11:01 PM   #175 
     - LOL..  RagAss   May-29-10 11:02 PM   #176 
  - Now, that's sure-fire proof you've got your old thinking cap on.  TheKentuckian   May-30-10 02:35 AM   #184 
  - I think you are confusing the schools, from which pupils return home daily, with orphanages,  WinkyDink   May-30-10 07:17 AM   #192 
  - +1,000,000 and 1  Hissyspit   May-30-10 02:53 PM   #218 
  - Who exactly is doing all of this *detective* work?  Proud Liberal Dem   May-29-10 10:59 PM   #174 
  - A student  charlie   May-30-10 01:14 AM   #183 
  - UNITED STATES CODE: 42 USC 21, 2000e2  Xicano   May-30-10 03:40 AM   #186 
  - (e) ... (2) it shall not be an unlawful employment practice for a school, college, university, or  struggle4progress   May-30-10 06:59 AM   #188 
  - Usually such schools make it known beforehand  JNelson6563   May-30-10 07:08 AM   #189 
  - Why is this likely? Why do you assume this?  PassingFair   May-30-10 11:12 AM   #207 
     - Actually they were aware she wasn't Catholic when they hired her.  smokey nj   May-30-10 11:27 AM   #208 
        - I saw your link in the other thread....thanks!  PassingFair   May-30-10 11:31 AM   #209 
  - Kind of like working in a hospital and claiming that you don't believe in modern medicine  SoCalDem   May-30-10 07:17 AM   #193 
  - what if a person who was employed by the NAACP  onenote   May-30-10 07:34 AM   #194 
  - Rather than fire her,  Codeine   May-30-10 09:03 AM   #197 
  - Thanks to this thread, I'm more convinced than ever that Richard Dawkins is right.  Commie Pinko Dirtbag   May-30-10 11:59 AM   #213 
  - Wow.  Shining Jack   May-30-10 01:02 PM   #216 

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