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William Z. Foster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-14-10 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #98
101. no
Edited on Fri May-14-10 06:23 PM by William Z. Foster
The wealth in Detroit was generated by the workers.

New factories were built by management on the outskirts, from the very beginning, to escape taxation. "There is no way this or that could have been built in Detroit" you say. The facilities were built in Detroit, in the Detroit area, they were merely built outside of the political control of the workers, that is all.

Overcrowding at the end of the war was a function of the war economy and troops returning home.

Yes, the moving of the tax base outside of the borders of the political control of the city, and the fragmentation of the workers into suburban enclaves - playing on racial fears and holding out promises of a better life - most certainly drained the wealth out of the city, away from the workers, and into the hands of the few. Of course. That there should be any controversy about this is a relatively modern thing, and the fact that Democrats are parroting the management line is new and disturbing, as well. Middle management types from the industry in the 50's and 60's were less right wing than many Democrats are today about this, and less in denial about it.

How did the bastion of organized Labor become so reactionary and pro-management?
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  -Detroit's Robert Bobb wins, school district loses. School closures full speed ahead. madfloridian  May-08-10 01:15 PM   #0 
  - When people realize what is happening, it will be too late.  Catshrink   May-08-10 01:32 PM   #1 
  - You are right. Teachers are not usually confrontational.  madfloridian   May-08-10 09:58 PM   #11 
  - also because the "powerful teachers' unions" as the new york times calls them,  Hannah Bell   May-12-10 06:14 AM   #22 
  - What happens when one quarter of the people leave a city?  Taitertots   May-08-10 01:32 PM   #2 
  - But does that mean it must be sold off to private corporations?  Catshrink   May-08-10 01:34 PM   #4 
  - All districts face that. You don't close and adjust.  madfloridian   May-08-10 01:36 PM   #5 
  - Ummm... The charter schools in Detroit are nonprofits  LuckyTheDog   May-13-10 07:36 PM   #81 
     - You do some research and get back to me.  madfloridian   May-15-10 12:35 AM   #119 
     - So, which Detroit charter schools are owned by for-profit companies?  LuckyTheDog   May-16-10 11:21 PM   #152 
        - what is "owned" besides the name?  Hannah Bell   May-17-10 12:48 PM   #176 
           - Owned means owned  LuckyTheDog   May-17-10 01:44 PM   #181 
              - what, precisely, is "owned"? you keep avoiding the question.  Hannah Bell   May-17-10 02:22 PM   #183 
                 - In the case of the schools I have visited  LuckyTheDog   May-17-10 02:35 PM   #185 
                    - great, so we apparently agree that owning or controlling the facilities & controlling hiring &  Hannah Bell   May-17-10 02:49 PM   #187 
                       - I don't have specific knowledge...  LuckyTheDog   May-17-10 02:55 PM   #189 
                          - No, the city contracts management of ALL public schools to private management.  Hannah Bell   May-17-10 03:34 PM   #193 
                             - And that article was wrong  LuckyTheDog   May-17-10 07:47 PM   #197 
                                - you posted misinformation when you said i said dte runs a school.  Hannah Bell   May-17-10 09:39 PM   #199 
                                   - Ummm...  LuckyTheDog   May-18-10 02:31 PM   #201 
     - about 75% of charter schools in michigan are run by for-profit EMOs.  Hannah Bell   May-15-10 03:51 AM   #125 
        - I repeat: The charter schools in Detroit are owned by nonprofits  LuckyTheDog   May-16-10 11:18 PM   #151 
        - just *what* is "owned"? the management companies own e.g. buildings & curriculum.  Hannah Bell   May-17-10 03:08 AM   #160 
        - Nope. That is just plain wrong.  LuckyTheDog   May-17-10 08:16 AM   #166 
           - in name only.  Hannah Bell   May-17-10 12:47 PM   #175 
              - Once again  LuckyTheDog   May-17-10 12:59 PM   #178 
                 - I have never stated that the charter of any school is owned by a for-profit company.  Hannah Bell   May-17-10 01:23 PM   #179 
                    - Well... except the charter schools I know about don't work that way  LuckyTheDog   May-17-10 01:42 PM   #180 
                       - I linked you to 11 charter schools being run this way by the same for-profit company,  Hannah Bell   May-17-10 01:47 PM   #182 
                          - So, you don't really have specific knowledge of Detroit charter schools  LuckyTheDog   May-17-10 02:25 PM   #184 
                             - ah, but you see, they cannot simply "cancel the contract". because there's  Hannah Bell   May-17-10 02:45 PM   #186 
                                - All that depends on the terms of the contract  LuckyTheDog   May-17-10 02:57 PM   #190 
                                   - uh, excuse me, public schools did not traditionally enter into contracts  Hannah Bell   May-17-10 03:06 PM   #191 
                                      - DPS has THOUSANDS of private vendors  LuckyTheDog   May-17-10 03:08 PM   #192 
                                         - you continue to misrepresent my posts, my position, & the facts.  Hannah Bell   May-17-10 10:08 PM   #200 
        - Are you that superfluous that you think "non-profit" = no profits?  Doremus   May-18-10 06:50 PM   #203 
        - Also.. did you read that whole page you linked to?  LuckyTheDog   May-16-10 11:40 PM   #153 
           - Yes; that's the standard dodge. But again, I ask, what is "owned"?  Hannah Bell   May-17-10 04:11 AM   #161 
              - So, they outsource stuff  LuckyTheDog   May-17-10 08:21 AM   #167 
                 - They outsource EVERYTHING.  Hannah Bell   May-17-10 12:44 PM   #174 
  - More like 60%  Gaedel   May-12-10 03:58 PM   #33 
  - not according to the census. pg 38, table 27: 912,000  Hannah Bell   May-15-10 04:26 AM   #129 
  - arbitrary and meaningless  William Z. Foster   May-15-10 12:53 PM   #136 
  - nonsense, utter nonsense  William Z. Foster   May-14-10 05:39 PM   #92 
  - This trend has me reassessing my views on homeschooling. nt  eilen   May-08-10 01:33 PM   #3 
  - It's like a movement hurtling forward with no one to stop it.  madfloridian   May-08-10 05:38 PM   #7 
  - Houghton Mifflin Harcourt now embedding workers in Detroit school system.  madfloridian   May-08-10 03:35 PM   #6 
  - Teachers will become drones reading a script.  Catshrink   May-09-10 12:53 AM   #14 
  - Bobb is returning TFA to Detroit, even while experienced teachers laid off.  madfloridian   May-08-10 07:54 PM   #8 
  - kick.  Starry Messenger   May-08-10 08:14 PM   #9 
  - Yes. "These large foundations are like a juggernaut that can not be stopped."  madfloridian   May-08-10 08:35 PM   #10 
     - They want to end the world it seems, what can you do.  RandomThoughts   May-08-10 10:01 PM   #12 
        - We have to at least try.  madfloridian   May-09-10 12:36 AM   #13 
        - It truly is.  Dappleganger   May-12-10 03:21 PM   #30 
        - And THIS is why Repubs hate unions: Unions stand in the way of laissez-faire.  WinkyDink   May-12-10 04:52 PM   #45 
  - Bob Bobb?  gmoney   May-09-10 12:56 AM   #15 
  - It's Robert Bobb. n/t  Fire1   May-09-10 08:54 PM   #19 
  - I voted for Bob Roberts back in '92!  Blue_Tires   May-12-10 03:25 PM   #31 
  - Mi Court of Appeals? Good old.... here you go- it is a perversion to be sure.  n.michigan   May-09-10 02:01 AM   #16 
  - The union has mostly worked with Granholm....  madfloridian   May-09-10 07:55 AM   #17 
  - Time for teachers to file a lawsuit against the unions and RTTBottom dictates-a RICO?  n.michigan   May-09-10 11:13 AM   #18 
  - "Where is that f-ing union" = my question too.  Hannah Bell   May-15-10 03:57 AM   #127 
  - Interesting...  dreamnightwind   May-10-10 09:45 PM   #20 
  - yes, he is. an operative for capital. as are most of the school "reformers".  Hannah Bell   May-12-10 03:06 PM   #27 
  - Detroit resident here  LuckyTheDog   May-12-10 05:52 AM   #21 
  - and others who live there feel differently. and the fact that someone doesn't live somewhere  Hannah Bell   May-12-10 06:17 AM   #23 
  - It's not a conspiracy  LuckyTheDog   May-12-10 01:25 PM   #24 
  - Never let a good crisis go to waste.  madfloridian   May-12-10 01:29 PM   #25 
  - Yeah, I read "The Shock Doctrine," too  LuckyTheDog   May-12-10 02:50 PM   #26 
     - foundations are the tax-free investment & policy-making arms of the ruling class.  Hannah Bell   May-12-10 03:16 PM   #29 
     - Foundations = philanthropy  LuckyTheDog   May-12-10 05:37 PM   #48 
        - um, foundations = tax-free investment funds & policy arms controlled by the top 1%  Hannah Bell   May-12-10 10:30 PM   #56 
           - Their motives are not always pristine, sure, that's clear...  LuckyTheDog   May-13-10 09:31 AM   #62 
              - any good work they do for others is incidental to the good work they do for themselves,  Hannah Bell   May-13-10 12:37 PM   #66 
                 - You don't know much about foundations (nt)  LuckyTheDog   May-13-10 03:38 PM   #77 
                    - a lot more than you, apparently.  Hannah Bell   May-15-10 03:11 AM   #123 
     - Yeah, it is the "shock doctrine" of education. Lois Weiner tells the truth about it.  tonysam   May-12-10 03:51 PM   #32 
     - These groups are taking over our public schools. It is not okay.  madfloridian   May-12-10 04:08 PM   #34 
        - You are painting with a broad brush  LuckyTheDog   May-12-10 05:34 PM   #47 
           - It is not just Detroit. It is all over the country.  madfloridian   May-12-10 05:55 PM   #49 
           - All situations and communities are different  LuckyTheDog   May-12-10 06:10 PM   #52 
              - The policies are the problem. It is a national problem now.  madfloridian   May-12-10 06:57 PM   #55 
              - bullshit  William Z. Foster   May-14-10 04:27 PM   #83 
              - Crushing of the unions?  blue_onyx   May-14-10 05:55 PM   #95 
                 - LOL  William Z. Foster   May-14-10 06:08 PM   #96 
                    - She's been using that line for ages now.  madfloridian   May-15-10 12:34 AM   #118 
              - Lucky......  Gaedel   May-14-10 05:53 PM   #93 
              - The policy & the money funding it is THE SAME, in Detroit, in Los Angeles, in New York,  Hannah Bell   May-15-10 02:46 AM   #121 
           - are you guys in the "broad brush" club or something? seems to be your  Hannah Bell   May-15-10 02:44 AM   #120 
  - it *is* a conspiracy.  Hannah Bell   May-12-10 03:07 PM   #28 
  - I agree. It may be the only way to get people to move  sufrommich   May-12-10 04:19 PM   #38 
     - that's not the conspiracy i'm talking about.  Hannah Bell   May-12-10 11:09 PM   #59 
     - that is not what happened  William Z. Foster   May-15-10 12:04 PM   #133 
        - OK, but it's 2010... what do we do now?  LuckyTheDog   May-15-10 06:21 PM   #141 
           - "we" who?  William Z. Foster   May-15-10 09:56 PM   #144 
           - Re-read your post  LuckyTheDog   May-17-10 12:03 AM   #156 
              - right  William Z. Foster   May-17-10 12:15 AM   #157 
                 - WTF are you talking about?  LuckyTheDog   May-17-10 08:28 AM   #169 
                    - fine  William Z. Foster   May-17-10 04:54 PM   #195 
           - "doing nothing" only an option when it's poor black people carrying the burden  Hannah Bell   May-16-10 11:17 AM   #147 
              - No. Doing nothing is NOT and option.  LuckyTheDog   May-16-10 05:21 PM   #148 
                 - they've been "doing nothing" for decades. suddenly it's not an option because *you're* on the scene?  Hannah Bell   May-16-10 06:27 PM   #149 
                    - Ummm.... so you really have no ideas?  LuckyTheDog   May-16-10 11:06 PM   #150 
                    - I have plenty of ideas. It's not like if i waste my time telling you about them they're  Hannah Bell   May-17-10 04:14 AM   #162 
                       - Ummm  LuckyTheDog   May-17-10 08:33 AM   #171 
                    - I was not wrong  LuckyTheDog   May-16-10 11:59 PM   #155 
                       - 75% of michigan charters are managed for-profit, but all those in detroit are non-profit?  Hannah Bell   May-17-10 03:02 AM   #159 
                       - Please name the Detroit charters owned by for-profits  LuckyTheDog   May-17-10 08:15 AM   #165 
                          - i've claimed that 75% of michigan charters are managed for-profit,  Hannah Bell   May-17-10 09:33 PM   #198 
                       - what are you arguing about?  William Z. Foster   May-17-10 04:56 PM   #196 
                          - I have a problem with...  LuckyTheDog   May-18-10 04:56 PM   #202 
  - You've been stunningly wrong wrt to Detroit though. It's OK if you don't live here and have INSIGHT.  Romulox   May-12-10 04:12 PM   #36 
     - I'm a former resident of Oakland under Bobb's tenure here.  Starry Messenger   May-12-10 04:24 PM   #39 
     - The poster in question has offered nothing but *characterizations*, no facts.  Romulox   May-12-10 04:32 PM   #40 
        - Google "Hantz Farms"  Starry Messenger   May-12-10 04:39 PM   #41 
        - According to the Free Press, Mayor Bing opposes the Hantz Farms project  Romulox   May-12-10 04:45 PM   #42 
           - The Fair Grounds is not their only proposal.  Starry Messenger   May-12-10 04:48 PM   #43 
           - Stop. Read. THEN lecture!  Romulox   May-12-10 04:50 PM   #44 
              - I've been following this story for months.  Starry Messenger   May-12-10 04:58 PM   #46 
                 - Your problem with urban farming is what?  LuckyTheDog   May-12-10 05:59 PM   #50 
                    - Did I say I had a problem with it?  Starry Messenger   May-12-10 06:03 PM   #51 
                    - Ya know what...  LuckyTheDog   May-12-10 06:17 PM   #53 
                       - I'm just telling you what I'm reading.  Starry Messenger   May-12-10 06:46 PM   #54 
                       - I'm not sure the farm thing is a scheme  LuckyTheDog   May-13-10 08:36 AM   #61 
                       - detroit is not particularly "underpopulated" in comparison with other cities.  Hannah Bell   May-12-10 10:49 PM   #58 
                          - You should see the vacant land here  LuckyTheDog   May-13-10 08:35 AM   #60 
                          - via google street view, yes.  Hannah Bell   May-13-10 12:34 PM   #65 
                             - OK, then  LuckyTheDog   May-13-10 03:22 PM   #76 
                                - i said nothing like that. & whatever your personal feelings, the last i heard  Hannah Bell   May-14-10 04:29 PM   #84 
                                   - First off, I don't think anyone will be forced to leave.  LuckyTheDog   May-14-10 08:10 PM   #112 
                                   - well, if *you* don't think so, i'm sure it won't happen. even though the people running your city  Hannah Bell   May-15-10 02:57 AM   #122 
                                   - City Council has not even debated this, let alone passed a plan  LuckyTheDog   May-15-10 06:12 PM   #139 
                                   - no, their lawyer's just making the case for the plan in the media. what do you think eminent domain  Hannah Bell   May-16-10 11:14 AM   #146 
                          - The difference being...  blue_onyx   May-13-10 10:32 AM   #63 
                             - same area, more people than portland oregon. that's not "misinformation," sorry.  Hannah Bell   May-13-10 12:28 PM   #64 
                                - You are misinformed  blue_onyx   May-13-10 01:19 PM   #68 
                                   - the facts are correct. so far as density goes, detroit isn't "underpopulated".  Hannah Bell   May-13-10 01:33 PM   #69 
                                      - So, those tens of thousands of abandoned houses...  LuckyTheDog   May-13-10 07:23 PM   #79 
                                      - If they're abandoned, I have no objection to the city doing whatever it wants with them, & I doubt  Hannah Bell   May-14-10 04:30 PM   #85 
                                      - See if this will post, never tried it before.....  Gaedel   May-14-10 06:45 PM   #106 
                                      - You are mixing 2 different issues  LuckyTheDog   May-14-10 08:04 PM   #111 
                                      - It's nice that you "favor" that, but that's not what's happening.  Hannah Bell   May-15-10 03:18 AM   #124 
                                      - No details have been passed by city council  LuckyTheDog   May-15-10 06:14 PM   #140 
                                      - i'm not speculating when the lawyers are in the papers defending the plan.  Hannah Bell   May-17-10 02:51 PM   #188 
                                      - other way around  William Z. Foster   May-15-10 01:00 PM   #138 
                    - oh, gosh I don't know  William Z. Foster   May-14-10 05:02 PM   #90 
                       - "sucked the wealth out of Detroit"????  Gaedel   May-14-10 06:10 PM   #98 
                          - no  William Z. Foster   May-14-10 06:22 PM   #101 
           - he doesn't oppose the project, he just doesn't like that particular site.  Hannah Bell   May-13-10 12:41 PM   #67 
        - you're from dearborn. 1.2% black, 86% white, median household income $44K.  Hannah Bell   May-13-10 02:02 PM   #71 
           - You can't be serious?  blue_onyx   May-13-10 02:20 PM   #72 
           - poster chastises others for not understanding the "details" of life in detroit, but is from dearborn  Hannah Bell   May-13-10 02:58 PM   #73 
           - YOU DON'T EVEN LIVE IN THE STATE!!!!  blue_onyx   May-13-10 03:13 PM   #74 
              - don't like the logic when applied tp yourself, do you?  Hannah Bell   May-13-10 03:17 PM   #75 
                 - What are you talking about?  blue_onyx   May-13-10 03:56 PM   #78 
                    - Thanks for that  LuckyTheDog   May-13-10 07:28 PM   #80 
                    - The people whom Bobb is planning to dispossess for a few thousand also own homes  Hannah Bell   May-14-10 04:34 PM   #87 
                       - Where did I say people should be made homeless?  LuckyTheDog   May-14-10 08:14 PM   #113 
                          - i didn't say you did. BUT THAT'S WHAT THE PLAN IS: HOMEOWNERS WHOSE HOMES  Hannah Bell   May-14-10 10:40 PM   #115 
                    - I was applying the poster's logic. I don't endorse it, but since he first made the claim  Hannah Bell   May-14-10 04:32 PM   #86 
                    - damn suburbanites  William Z. Foster   May-14-10 04:36 PM   #88 
                       - Nonsense  blue_onyx   May-14-10 05:53 PM   #94 
                          - oh really?  William Z. Foster   May-14-10 06:09 PM   #97 
           - Detroiter here  William Z. Foster   May-14-10 04:22 PM   #82 
              - Nice  blue_onyx   May-14-10 06:18 PM   #100 
                 - didn't say that  William Z. Foster   May-14-10 06:31 PM   #104 
                    - Ok...  blue_onyx   May-14-10 06:49 PM   #107 
                    - look  William Z. Foster   May-14-10 06:59 PM   #108 
                       - No I don't know it  blue_onyx   May-14-10 07:23 PM   #110 
                          - racism does not go "both ways"  William Z. Foster   May-14-10 08:24 PM   #114 
                             - So much bullshit  blue_onyx   May-14-10 11:33 PM   #116 
                                - You would do yourself a favor to ignore these two  Egnever   May-15-10 03:53 AM   #126 
                                   - Speaking of tag teams... it's mr. contentless personal attack himself.  Hannah Bell   May-15-10 04:02 AM   #128 
                                   - I think it was valuable  William Z. Foster   May-15-10 12:45 PM   #134 
                                      - it was. their only argument was "you don't know because you're not from detroit".  Hannah Bell   May-15-10 11:04 PM   #145 
                    - Detroit destroyed public transport  Gaedel   May-15-10 05:15 AM   #130 
                       - massive pressure  William Z. Foster   May-15-10 12:56 PM   #137 
           - 86 per cent white for Dearborn  Gaedel   May-17-10 04:54 AM   #163 
              - ever evolving  William Z. Foster   May-17-10 04:52 PM   #194 
     - sez you. other detroiters disagree.  Hannah Bell   May-12-10 10:32 PM   #57 
  - Ask the OP or the poster you're responding to if they support the UAW. Guardian Angels of Detroit?  Romulox   May-12-10 04:12 PM   #37 
  - like bob isn't corrupt. like kilpatrick's corruption wasn't encouraged & abetted by the ptb.  Hannah Bell   May-13-10 01:42 PM   #70 
  - kick (too late to rec)  amborin   May-12-10 04:10 PM   #35 
  - kick  William Z. Foster   May-14-10 04:56 PM   #89 
  - It's been an illuminating thread.  Starry Messenger   May-14-10 05:14 PM   #91 
  - never knew about this Bobb character's damage to my Oakland, thanks!  NuttyFluffers   May-15-10 05:47 AM   #131 
  - Got any ideas?  LuckyTheDog   May-15-10 06:29 PM   #142 
     - I have been civil to you.  Starry Messenger   May-15-10 08:36 PM   #143 
        - OK... so no ideas from you.  LuckyTheDog   May-16-10 11:52 PM   #154 
           - Oh I have ideas.  Starry Messenger   May-17-10 12:30 AM   #158 
              - LOL  LuckyTheDog   May-17-10 08:22 AM   #168 
  - Thanks for getting it. It is not a post about Detroit really..  madfloridian   May-14-10 06:11 PM   #99 
  - Totally Wrong  Gaedel   May-14-10 06:29 PM   #102 
     - depends  William Z. Foster   May-14-10 06:45 PM   #105 
     - the specific suburbs  William Z. Foster   May-14-10 07:22 PM   #109 
  - if the school system was designed for 2 million kids... and there are only  greencharlie   May-14-10 06:30 PM   #103 
  - Oh, come on. You can make adjustments without bulldozing the schools.  madfloridian   May-15-10 12:32 AM   #117 
     - Detroit Public Schools  Gaedel   May-15-10 10:51 AM   #132 
        - Detroit's special needs schools at risk  Starry Messenger   May-15-10 12:49 PM   #135 
           - Starry  Gaedel   May-17-10 08:10 AM   #164 
              - Thank you Gaedel, I appreciate the response.  Starry Messenger   May-17-10 08:32 AM   #170 
                 - If I were Bobb....  Gaedel   May-17-10 09:38 AM   #172 
  - I Live Near Detroit, Lived in Detroit and Taught ACT Prep in DPS  DimplesinMI   May-17-10 10:39 AM   #173 
     - Interesting perspective  tammywammy   May-17-10 12:53 PM   #177 

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