Ken Burch
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Thu Apr-29-10 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #82 |
| 86. Not a country but a system: |
|
The Mondragon Cooperatives.
And the City of Seattle when the workers ran it during the General strike of 1919(they only had to give it back to the rich because the AF of L forced them too.)
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| -Oil-rich Venezuela gripped by economic crisis |
naaman fletcher |
Apr-29-10 10:57 AM |
#0 |
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Hey but everything is equal right? |
dkf |
Apr-29-10 11:00 AM |
#1 |
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You can't be for peace AND be for forcing Venezuela to the right. |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 11:06 AM |
#5 |
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There is something to be gained by privitization. |
dkf |
Apr-29-10 11:10 AM |
#8 |
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You aren't living in a shantytown, are you? |
WinkyDink |
May-01-10 06:38 PM |
#136 |
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Mmmm Hmmmmm |
NeedleCast |
Apr-29-10 11:02 AM |
#2 |
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He hadn't said it was paradise, just a lot better than what they had. |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 11:06 AM |
#6 |
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Looks like they'd gain the same economic expantion that their neighbors are experiencing |
NeedleCast |
Apr-29-10 11:13 AM |
#9 |
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Sure because everyone wants to be America's whore. |
MyNameGoesHere |
Apr-29-10 12:13 PM |
#21 |
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That wasn't really the other point. |
Statistical |
Apr-29-10 04:00 PM |
#120 |
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But their health care is fabulous. Which makes up for |
sufrommich |
Apr-29-10 11:04 AM |
#3 |
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Well, they'd hardly be better off being like us. |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 11:05 AM |
#4 |
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Yes, I'm sure if given the option |
naaman fletcher |
Apr-29-10 11:48 AM |
#11 |
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A lot of US don't want OUR economy. |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 11:52 AM |
#12 |
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Did I defend the status quo? |
naaman fletcher |
Apr-29-10 11:54 AM |
#13 |
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Nothing progressive happens in countries where the economy gets privatized |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 12:15 PM |
#24 |
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so you are saying all European countries are right-wing? They all have Market value societies. |
KittyWampus |
Apr-29-10 12:41 PM |
#32 |
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The progressive aspects of European societies are all from the non-market side of their economies |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 12:44 PM |
#35 |
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The progressive aspects are paid for by a robust economy. |
Statistical |
Apr-29-10 04:02 PM |
#121 |
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What are we arguing? |
naaman fletcher |
Apr-29-10 12:43 PM |
#34 |
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People often prefer to live in wealthier societies. |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 12:47 PM |
#41 |
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Well I am glad you know better than poor people do. nt. |
naaman fletcher |
Apr-29-10 12:49 PM |
#42 |
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You really HATE the idea the Venezuela has demonstrated that alternatives to capitalism can work |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 12:52 PM |
#46 |
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Since you keep arguing with me on points that I never made, |
naaman fletcher |
Apr-29-10 01:01 PM |
#53 |
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How can you say they are working |
hack89 |
May-01-10 08:50 PM |
#140 |
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You can probably say that about most Peruvians or Colombians, too. |
Flaneur |
Apr-29-10 12:50 PM |
#43 |
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+1 nt |
laughingliberal |
Apr-29-10 02:36 PM |
#93 |
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+100 |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 03:43 PM |
#115 |
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Could be real or it could like the CIA bringing the Chilean economy to its knees in 1973 |
SharonAnn |
Apr-29-10 11:07 AM |
#7 |
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That would make Chavez a CIA agent. Interesting. nt |
Dreamer Tatum |
Apr-29-10 12:09 PM |
#17 |
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Venezuela is experiencing the downsides of a management crisis |
bridgit |
Apr-29-10 11:28 AM |
#10 |
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POST OF THE YEAR |
Dreamer Tatum |
Apr-29-10 12:13 PM |
#23 |
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Said the right-winger. |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 12:15 PM |
#25 |
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Replies the pie in the sky eyed rube? |
bridgit |
Apr-29-10 12:18 PM |
#26 |
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Venezuela has problems. It would have problems just as bad or worse if it were capitalist |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 12:29 PM |
#30 |
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Stawman of the year. |
Statistical |
Apr-29-10 04:08 PM |
#123 |
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Plenty fair enough - sometimes, it *is* simply as fair as it gets |
bridgit |
Apr-29-10 10:35 PM |
#128 |
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Wrong. It's simply a management crisis |
Dreamer Tatum |
Apr-29-10 12:18 PM |
#27 |
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It's about the assumption that the only good management can be provided |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 12:28 PM |
#28 |
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That's your assumption, not mine. nt |
Dreamer Tatum |
Apr-29-10 12:43 PM |
#33 |
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+1 |
NeedleCast |
Apr-29-10 12:46 PM |
#39 |
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+1. Some people just want to see it as a Bush vs. Chavez thing. They BOTH suck ass as leaders. |
Statistical |
Apr-29-10 04:05 PM |
#122 |
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Maybe they are spending too much on weapons |
Renew Deal |
Apr-29-10 11:56 AM |
#14 |
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Don't make Republican posts on DU! |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 12:12 PM |
#19 |
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Case in point |
Renew Deal |
Apr-29-10 01:00 PM |
#51 |
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Here's the key right here, in the last sentence of the OP: |
Nuclear Unicorn |
Apr-29-10 12:02 PM |
#15 |
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well put. |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 12:07 PM |
#16 |
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MF has a big fan club here from what I've seen. nt |
laughingliberal |
Apr-29-10 02:40 PM |
#98 |
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Another way to say it |
NeedleCast |
Apr-29-10 12:12 PM |
#18 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Apr-29-10 12:13 PM |
#20 |
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I'm not |
NeedleCast |
Apr-29-10 12:45 PM |
#37 |
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What else could you be if you want a socialist country to go capitalist? |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 12:58 PM |
#50 |
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Must suck to live in a black and white world |
NeedleCast |
Apr-29-10 01:28 PM |
#78 |
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I'd like to see a transition towards more democratic worker management in Venezuela |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 01:39 PM |
#81 |
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But you're not going to get a transition towards a more democratic worker management under Chavez |
NeedleCast |
Apr-29-10 02:02 PM |
#90 |
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Once the rich take back over, all hopes of progress dies. |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 03:08 PM |
#106 |
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what? |
northzax |
Apr-29-10 12:45 PM |
#38 |
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Oh puhleeze. |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 12:51 PM |
#44 |
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so what happens when small firms get big? |
northzax |
Apr-29-10 01:15 PM |
#64 |
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At a certain level, you'd redistribute some of the assets |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 01:17 PM |
#68 |
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So... |
Nuclear Unicorn |
Apr-29-10 01:09 PM |
#56 |
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collective bargaining? great |
northzax |
Apr-29-10 01:35 PM |
#80 |
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Conflating currency with capitalism. |
Greyhound |
Apr-29-10 02:29 PM |
#92 |
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the particular comment I was responding to |
northzax |
Apr-30-10 09:19 AM |
#130 |
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If you live in the U.S., you have no alternative BUT to engage with the market system |
Ken Burch |
Apr-30-10 10:23 PM |
#133 |
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Not true |
northzax |
May-01-10 06:22 PM |
#134 |
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Well, I use a credit union rather than a bank |
Ken Burch |
May-01-10 08:32 PM |
#137 |
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You're confusing Democrat with liberal and there's plenty of these |
Greyhound |
Apr-29-10 01:45 PM |
#87 |
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Actually, |
naaman fletcher |
Apr-29-10 02:04 PM |
#91 |
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And what "long-standing beliefs" would those be? Equality? |
Greyhound |
Apr-29-10 02:37 PM |
#94 |
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Yes, |
naaman fletcher |
Apr-29-10 02:39 PM |
#96 |
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Well you can say that some individuals that identify themselves as Democrats |
Greyhound |
Apr-29-10 02:59 PM |
#105 |
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Oh I see what you are saying, |
naaman fletcher |
Apr-29-10 03:13 PM |
#107 |
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Which is worse: government controlling industry, |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 03:35 PM |
#113 |
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If you look at.. |
naaman fletcher |
Apr-29-10 03:58 PM |
#118 |
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Hell, I'll say that the good guys lost in Vietnam. |
ieoeja |
Apr-29-10 04:15 PM |
#125 |
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The only real "good guys" in Vietnam were the democratic opposition in South Vietnam |
Ken Burch |
Apr-30-10 10:21 PM |
#132 |
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That pretty well sums it up. nt |
laughingliberal |
Apr-29-10 02:43 PM |
#99 |
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Look up the term "capital strike" |
Lydia Leftcoast |
Apr-29-10 03:58 PM |
#117 |
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Huh? |
naaman fletcher |
Apr-29-10 12:13 PM |
#22 |
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If those industries were isolated, perhaps. |
Nuclear Unicorn |
Apr-29-10 12:29 PM |
#29 |
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It's not an accusation against workers, |
naaman fletcher |
Apr-29-10 12:45 PM |
#36 |
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Do you actually KNOW that nobody is watching performance closely? |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 12:46 PM |
#40 |
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long, long history.. |
naaman fletcher |
Apr-29-10 01:02 PM |
#54 |
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There is nothing in common between Venezuela and the Soviet Union |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 01:13 PM |
#61 |
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How am I a red-baiter? |
naaman fletcher |
Apr-29-10 01:17 PM |
#69 |
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It was red-baiting to invoke "the Soviet Union". |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 01:19 PM |
#72 |
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OK then, |
naaman fletcher |
Apr-29-10 01:41 PM |
#82 |
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Not a country but a system: |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 01:44 PM |
#86 |
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hadn't heard of Mondragon till now... |
naaman fletcher |
Apr-29-10 01:47 PM |
#89 |
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Thank you. I was sitting here shaking my head at the Soviet Union comparison. |
laughingliberal |
Apr-29-10 02:48 PM |
#101 |
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My dad had to listen to a lot of stuff like that when he was in a union |
Nuclear Unicorn |
Apr-29-10 12:52 PM |
#45 |
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Indeed. |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 12:54 PM |
#47 |
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Ya know... |
Nuclear Unicorn |
Apr-29-10 03:36 PM |
#114 |
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There is a difference between a union, |
naaman fletcher |
Apr-29-10 01:05 PM |
#55 |
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I think your explanation, indeed, looks more likely. nt |
laughingliberal |
Apr-29-10 02:46 PM |
#100 |
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+1 nt |
laughingliberal |
Apr-29-10 02:39 PM |
#95 |
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Chavez is an EPIC FAILURE. |
Cali_Democrat |
Apr-29-10 12:31 PM |
#31 |
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At least he isn't massacring trade unionists for peacefully marching against austerity budgets |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 12:56 PM |
#49 |
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I'm not concerned about what he's not doing. I'm concerned about what he's doing right now |
Cali_Democrat |
Apr-29-10 01:10 PM |
#57 |
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I'd say the unionists in Columbia who are being assassinated are suffering. |
laughingliberal |
Apr-29-10 02:51 PM |
#102 |
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Does it have to be either/or? |
naaman fletcher |
Apr-29-10 01:11 PM |
#58 |
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If you're pushing for a privatized oil industry, yes. |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 01:12 PM |
#60 |
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My alternative to Chavez would be a good like Lula. |
naaman fletcher |
Apr-29-10 01:18 PM |
#70 |
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He's ambiguous. |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 01:20 PM |
#73 |
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Yet somehow Brazil is expanding and becoming a powerhouse |
naaman fletcher |
Apr-29-10 01:21 PM |
#76 |
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The proceeds of this "expansion" are being held by the few |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 01:24 PM |
#77 |
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Even assuming that is true: |
naaman fletcher |
Apr-29-10 01:30 PM |
#79 |
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Again, you're assuming industries can only expand if driven by the self-interest of the few |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 01:43 PM |
#85 |
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So in Venezuela we should see an expansion |
naaman fletcher |
Apr-29-10 01:45 PM |
#88 |
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We live in a country where all the gains in the economy have been going more and more to the top |
laughingliberal |
Apr-29-10 02:55 PM |
#103 |
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That is true... |
naaman fletcher |
Apr-29-10 03:16 PM |
#109 |
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I do believe all but the very top in Venezuela were in brutal poverty before he was elected. |
laughingliberal |
Apr-29-10 03:20 PM |
#110 |
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well... |
naaman fletcher |
Apr-29-10 04:00 PM |
#119 |
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No, it is not a very large "very top." |
laughingliberal |
Apr-29-10 04:08 PM |
#124 |
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Seems to me.. |
naaman fletcher |
Apr-29-10 04:23 PM |
#126 |
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Geology is the primary determinent of oil production |
wuushew |
Apr-29-10 01:17 PM |
#67 |
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What about the 35% inflation and the blackouts? |
Cali_Democrat |
Apr-29-10 01:21 PM |
#74 |
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Chavez turned me into a newt. |
Forkboy |
Apr-29-10 12:56 PM |
#48 |
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What's wrong with Venezuela is Chavez's Cult of Personality |
MicaelS |
Apr-29-10 01:01 PM |
#52 |
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What's wrong with Venezuela is they've thrown off their local parasites and |
Greyhound |
Apr-29-10 01:21 PM |
#75 |
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Exactly! The global parasites are not happy about being thrown off and don't want anyone else |
laughingliberal |
Apr-29-10 02:58 PM |
#104 |
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You have set up a false dichotomy |
Caliman73 |
Apr-29-10 03:26 PM |
#112 |
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LOL! "José Guerra, a former Central Bank economist, The IMF, and |
Greyhound |
Apr-29-10 01:11 PM |
#59 |
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Indeed. |
Ken Burch |
Apr-29-10 01:15 PM |
#63 |
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Shhhh....we're not supposed to notice any of that. |
Forkboy |
Apr-29-10 01:15 PM |
#65 |
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Indeed. No mention of the people or workers and what they want. |
Nuclear Unicorn |
Apr-29-10 01:16 PM |
#66 |
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LOFL!!! Good point...some here are overt |
uponit7771 |
Apr-30-10 10:23 AM |
#131 |
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it's capital strike, spomsored by the us. |
Hannah Bell |
Apr-29-10 01:14 PM |
#62 |
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How can it be a capital strike in industries where Chavez appropriated the capital? nt |
naaman fletcher |
Apr-29-10 01:18 PM |
#71 |
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most industries in venezuela are privately held. and the state takeover |
Hannah Bell |
Apr-29-10 01:41 PM |
#83 |
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So what you are saying then.. |
naaman fletcher |
Apr-29-10 01:42 PM |
#84 |
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when people say "so what you're saying is...." 10 to 1 they're trying to put straw in your mouth. |
Hannah Bell |
Apr-29-10 10:27 PM |
#127 |
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Venezuelans are STILL in much better shape.... |
bvar22 |
Apr-29-10 02:39 PM |
#97 |
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We could, indeed, use some here |
laughingliberal |
Apr-29-10 03:15 PM |
#108 |
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There must be a lot of corruption is Venezuela |
gravity |
Apr-29-10 03:24 PM |
#111 |
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Venezuelas heavy crude - not in demand like light sweet crude in a tough world economy. |
GreenTea |
Apr-29-10 03:56 PM |
#116 |
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"In stark contrast to the rest of Latin America" - BS |
murdoch |
Apr-29-10 10:42 PM |
#129 |
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Translation: The have-nots have been getting too much; the profiteers need more. |
WinkyDink |
May-01-10 06:38 PM |
#135 |
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What a load of horseshit. nt |
bemildred |
May-01-10 08:34 PM |
#138 |
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-Cough- Disinformation! -cough- Propaganda! - Cough - Bullsh*t! |
ShortnFiery |
May-01-10 08:35 PM |
#139 |
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