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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-10 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #82
86. Not a country but a system:
The Mondragon Cooperatives.

And the City of Seattle when the workers ran it during the General strike of 1919(they only had to give it back to the rich because the AF of L forced them too.)
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  -Oil-rich Venezuela gripped by economic crisis naaman fletcher  Apr-29-10 10:57 AM   #0 
  - Hey but everything is equal right?  dkf   Apr-29-10 11:00 AM   #1 
  - You can't be for peace AND be for forcing Venezuela to the right.  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 11:06 AM   #5 
     - There is something to be gained by privitization.  dkf   Apr-29-10 11:10 AM   #8 
        - You aren't living in a shantytown, are you?  WinkyDink   May-01-10 06:38 PM   #136 
  - Mmmm Hmmmmm  NeedleCast   Apr-29-10 11:02 AM   #2 
  - He hadn't said it was paradise, just a lot better than what they had.  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 11:06 AM   #6 
     - Looks like they'd gain the same economic expantion that their neighbors are experiencing  NeedleCast   Apr-29-10 11:13 AM   #9 
        - Sure because everyone wants to be America's whore.  MyNameGoesHere   Apr-29-10 12:13 PM   #21 
           - That wasn't really the other point.  Statistical   Apr-29-10 04:00 PM   #120 
  - But their health care is fabulous. Which makes up for  sufrommich   Apr-29-10 11:04 AM   #3 
  - Well, they'd hardly be better off being like us.  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 11:05 AM   #4 
     - Yes, I'm sure if given the option  naaman fletcher   Apr-29-10 11:48 AM   #11 
        - A lot of US don't want OUR economy.  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 11:52 AM   #12 
           - Did I defend the status quo?  naaman fletcher   Apr-29-10 11:54 AM   #13 
              - Nothing progressive happens in countries where the economy gets privatized  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 12:15 PM   #24 
                 - so you are saying all European countries are right-wing? They all have Market value societies.  KittyWampus   Apr-29-10 12:41 PM   #32 
                 - The progressive aspects of European societies are all from the non-market side of their economies  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 12:44 PM   #35 
                    - The progressive aspects are paid for by a robust economy.  Statistical   Apr-29-10 04:02 PM   #121 
                 - What are we arguing?  naaman fletcher   Apr-29-10 12:43 PM   #34 
                    - People often prefer to live in wealthier societies.  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 12:47 PM   #41 
                    - Well I am glad you know better than poor people do. nt.  naaman fletcher   Apr-29-10 12:49 PM   #42 
                       - You really HATE the idea the Venezuela has demonstrated that alternatives to capitalism can work  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 12:52 PM   #46 
                          - Since you keep arguing with me on points that I never made,  naaman fletcher   Apr-29-10 01:01 PM   #53 
                          - How can you say they are working  hack89   May-01-10 08:50 PM   #140 
                    - You can probably say that about most Peruvians or Colombians, too.  Flaneur   Apr-29-10 12:50 PM   #43 
                       - +1 nt  laughingliberal   Apr-29-10 02:36 PM   #93 
                       - +100  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 03:43 PM   #115 
  - Could be real or it could like the CIA bringing the Chilean economy to its knees in 1973  SharonAnn   Apr-29-10 11:07 AM   #7 
  - That would make Chavez a CIA agent. Interesting. nt  Dreamer Tatum   Apr-29-10 12:09 PM   #17 
  - Venezuela is experiencing the downsides of a management crisis  bridgit   Apr-29-10 11:28 AM   #10 
  - POST OF THE YEAR  Dreamer Tatum   Apr-29-10 12:13 PM   #23 
  - Said the right-winger.  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 12:15 PM   #25 
     - Replies the pie in the sky eyed rube?  bridgit   Apr-29-10 12:18 PM   #26 
     - Venezuela has problems. It would have problems just as bad or worse if it were capitalist  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 12:29 PM   #30 
        - Stawman of the year.  Statistical   Apr-29-10 04:08 PM   #123 
        - Plenty fair enough - sometimes, it *is* simply as fair as it gets  bridgit   Apr-29-10 10:35 PM   #128 
     - Wrong. It's simply a management crisis  Dreamer Tatum   Apr-29-10 12:18 PM   #27 
        - It's about the assumption that the only good management can be provided  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 12:28 PM   #28 
           - That's your assumption, not mine. nt  Dreamer Tatum   Apr-29-10 12:43 PM   #33 
  - +1  NeedleCast   Apr-29-10 12:46 PM   #39 
  - +1. Some people just want to see it as a Bush vs. Chavez thing. They BOTH suck ass as leaders.  Statistical   Apr-29-10 04:05 PM   #122 
  - Maybe they are spending too much on weapons  Renew Deal   Apr-29-10 11:56 AM   #14 
  - Don't make Republican posts on DU!  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 12:12 PM   #19 
     - Case in point  Renew Deal   Apr-29-10 01:00 PM   #51 
  - Here's the key right here, in the last sentence of the OP:  Nuclear Unicorn   Apr-29-10 12:02 PM   #15 
  - well put.  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 12:07 PM   #16 
  - MF has a big fan club here from what I've seen. nt  laughingliberal   Apr-29-10 02:40 PM   #98 
  - Another way to say it  NeedleCast   Apr-29-10 12:12 PM   #18 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-29-10 12:13 PM   #20 
  - I'm not  NeedleCast   Apr-29-10 12:45 PM   #37 
  - What else could you be if you want a socialist country to go capitalist?  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 12:58 PM   #50 
     - Must suck to live in a black and white world  NeedleCast   Apr-29-10 01:28 PM   #78 
        - I'd like to see a transition towards more democratic worker management in Venezuela  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 01:39 PM   #81 
           - But you're not going to get a transition towards a more democratic worker management under Chavez  NeedleCast   Apr-29-10 02:02 PM   #90 
              - Once the rich take back over, all hopes of progress dies.  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 03:08 PM   #106 
  - what?  northzax   Apr-29-10 12:45 PM   #38 
  - Oh puhleeze.  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 12:51 PM   #44 
  - so what happens when small firms get big?  northzax   Apr-29-10 01:15 PM   #64 
     - At a certain level, you'd redistribute some of the assets  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 01:17 PM   #68 
  - So...  Nuclear Unicorn   Apr-29-10 01:09 PM   #56 
  - collective bargaining? great  northzax   Apr-29-10 01:35 PM   #80 
  - Conflating currency with capitalism.  Greyhound   Apr-29-10 02:29 PM   #92 
     - the particular comment I was responding to  northzax   Apr-30-10 09:19 AM   #130 
        - If you live in the U.S., you have no alternative BUT to engage with the market system  Ken Burch   Apr-30-10 10:23 PM   #133 
           - Not true  northzax   May-01-10 06:22 PM   #134 
              - Well, I use a credit union rather than a bank  Ken Burch   May-01-10 08:32 PM   #137 
  - You're confusing Democrat with liberal and there's plenty of these  Greyhound   Apr-29-10 01:45 PM   #87 
     - Actually,  naaman fletcher   Apr-29-10 02:04 PM   #91 
     - And what "long-standing beliefs" would those be? Equality?  Greyhound   Apr-29-10 02:37 PM   #94 
        - Yes,  naaman fletcher   Apr-29-10 02:39 PM   #96 
           - Well you can say that some individuals that identify themselves as Democrats  Greyhound   Apr-29-10 02:59 PM   #105 
              - Oh I see what you are saying,  naaman fletcher   Apr-29-10 03:13 PM   #107 
              - Which is worse: government controlling industry,  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 03:35 PM   #113 
                 - If you look at..  naaman fletcher   Apr-29-10 03:58 PM   #118 
              - Hell, I'll say that the good guys lost in Vietnam.  ieoeja   Apr-29-10 04:15 PM   #125 
                 - The only real "good guys" in Vietnam were the democratic opposition in South Vietnam  Ken Burch   Apr-30-10 10:21 PM   #132 
     - That pretty well sums it up. nt  laughingliberal   Apr-29-10 02:43 PM   #99 
  - Look up the term "capital strike"  Lydia Leftcoast   Apr-29-10 03:58 PM   #117 
  - Huh?  naaman fletcher   Apr-29-10 12:13 PM   #22 
  - If those industries were isolated, perhaps.  Nuclear Unicorn   Apr-29-10 12:29 PM   #29 
     - It's not an accusation against workers,  naaman fletcher   Apr-29-10 12:45 PM   #36 
     - Do you actually KNOW that nobody is watching performance closely?  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 12:46 PM   #40 
     - long, long history..  naaman fletcher   Apr-29-10 01:02 PM   #54 
        - There is nothing in common between Venezuela and the Soviet Union  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 01:13 PM   #61 
           - How am I a red-baiter?  naaman fletcher   Apr-29-10 01:17 PM   #69 
           - It was red-baiting to invoke "the Soviet Union".  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 01:19 PM   #72 
              - OK then,  naaman fletcher   Apr-29-10 01:41 PM   #82 
                 - Not a country but a system:  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 01:44 PM   #86 
                    - hadn't heard of Mondragon till now...  naaman fletcher   Apr-29-10 01:47 PM   #89 
           - Thank you. I was sitting here shaking my head at the Soviet Union comparison.  laughingliberal   Apr-29-10 02:48 PM   #101 
     - My dad had to listen to a lot of stuff like that when he was in a union  Nuclear Unicorn   Apr-29-10 12:52 PM   #45 
        - Indeed.  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 12:54 PM   #47 
        - Ya know...  Nuclear Unicorn   Apr-29-10 03:36 PM   #114 
        - There is a difference between a union,  naaman fletcher   Apr-29-10 01:05 PM   #55 
     - I think your explanation, indeed, looks more likely. nt  laughingliberal   Apr-29-10 02:46 PM   #100 
  - +1 nt  laughingliberal   Apr-29-10 02:39 PM   #95 
  - Chavez is an EPIC FAILURE.  Cali_Democrat   Apr-29-10 12:31 PM   #31 
  - At least he isn't massacring trade unionists for peacefully marching against austerity budgets  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 12:56 PM   #49 
  - I'm not concerned about what he's not doing. I'm concerned about what he's doing right now  Cali_Democrat   Apr-29-10 01:10 PM   #57 
  - I'd say the unionists in Columbia who are being assassinated are suffering.  laughingliberal   Apr-29-10 02:51 PM   #102 
  - Does it have to be either/or?  naaman fletcher   Apr-29-10 01:11 PM   #58 
     - If you're pushing for a privatized oil industry, yes.  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 01:12 PM   #60 
        - My alternative to Chavez would be a good like Lula.  naaman fletcher   Apr-29-10 01:18 PM   #70 
           - He's ambiguous.  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 01:20 PM   #73 
              - Yet somehow Brazil is expanding and becoming a powerhouse  naaman fletcher   Apr-29-10 01:21 PM   #76 
                 - The proceeds of this "expansion" are being held by the few  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 01:24 PM   #77 
                    - Even assuming that is true:  naaman fletcher   Apr-29-10 01:30 PM   #79 
                       - Again, you're assuming industries can only expand if driven by the self-interest of the few  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 01:43 PM   #85 
                       - So in Venezuela we should see an expansion  naaman fletcher   Apr-29-10 01:45 PM   #88 
                       - We live in a country where all the gains in the economy have been going more and more to the top  laughingliberal   Apr-29-10 02:55 PM   #103 
                          - That is true...  naaman fletcher   Apr-29-10 03:16 PM   #109 
                             - I do believe all but the very top in Venezuela were in brutal poverty before he was elected.  laughingliberal   Apr-29-10 03:20 PM   #110 
                                - well...  naaman fletcher   Apr-29-10 04:00 PM   #119 
                                   - No, it is not a very large "very top."  laughingliberal   Apr-29-10 04:08 PM   #124 
                                      - Seems to me..  naaman fletcher   Apr-29-10 04:23 PM   #126 
  - Geology is the primary determinent of oil production  wuushew   Apr-29-10 01:17 PM   #67 
     - What about the 35% inflation and the blackouts?  Cali_Democrat   Apr-29-10 01:21 PM   #74 
  - Chavez turned me into a newt.  Forkboy   Apr-29-10 12:56 PM   #48 
  - What's wrong with Venezuela is Chavez's Cult of Personality  MicaelS   Apr-29-10 01:01 PM   #52 
  - What's wrong with Venezuela is they've thrown off their local parasites and  Greyhound   Apr-29-10 01:21 PM   #75 
  - Exactly! The global parasites are not happy about being thrown off and don't want anyone else  laughingliberal   Apr-29-10 02:58 PM   #104 
  - You have set up a false dichotomy  Caliman73   Apr-29-10 03:26 PM   #112 
  - LOL! "Jos Guerra, a former Central Bank economist, The IMF, and  Greyhound   Apr-29-10 01:11 PM   #59 
  - Indeed.  Ken Burch   Apr-29-10 01:15 PM   #63 
  - Shhhh....we're not supposed to notice any of that.  Forkboy   Apr-29-10 01:15 PM   #65 
  - Indeed. No mention of the people or workers and what they want.  Nuclear Unicorn   Apr-29-10 01:16 PM   #66 
  - LOFL!!! Good point...some here are overt  uponit7771   Apr-30-10 10:23 AM   #131 
  - it's capital strike, spomsored by the us.  Hannah Bell   Apr-29-10 01:14 PM   #62 
  - How can it be a capital strike in industries where Chavez appropriated the capital? nt  naaman fletcher   Apr-29-10 01:18 PM   #71 
     - most industries in venezuela are privately held. and the state takeover  Hannah Bell   Apr-29-10 01:41 PM   #83 
        - So what you are saying then..  naaman fletcher   Apr-29-10 01:42 PM   #84 
           - when people say "so what you're saying is...." 10 to 1 they're trying to put straw in your mouth.  Hannah Bell   Apr-29-10 10:27 PM   #127 
  - Venezuelans are STILL in much better shape....  bvar22   Apr-29-10 02:39 PM   #97 
  - We could, indeed, use some here  laughingliberal   Apr-29-10 03:15 PM   #108 
  - There must be a lot of corruption is Venezuela  gravity   Apr-29-10 03:24 PM   #111 
  - Venezuelas heavy crude - not in demand like light sweet crude in a tough world economy.  GreenTea   Apr-29-10 03:56 PM   #116 
  - "In stark contrast to the rest of Latin America" - BS  murdoch   Apr-29-10 10:42 PM   #129 
  - Translation: The have-nots have been getting too much; the profiteers need more.  WinkyDink   May-01-10 06:38 PM   #135 
  - What a load of horseshit. nt  bemildred   May-01-10 08:34 PM   #138 
  - -Cough- Disinformation! -cough- Propaganda! - Cough - Bullsh*t!  ShortnFiery   May-01-10 08:35 PM   #139 

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