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Reply #122: I have to piss in your wheaties, and I'm not sorry. [View All]

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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-22-10 08:15 AM
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122. I have to piss in your wheaties, and I'm not sorry.
Every time I see one of these posts on DU I think it's just as bad of us to generalize and demonize in the name of venting as it is for assholes on the other side to rub it in our faces.

Success comes in degrees, and yes, for 99.9 percent of people who view themselves as "successful", whether they are comfortable, millionaires or billionaires, ask and they will tell you, and believe, that they've earned it or otherwise have a right to it.

The world is not a community. Money is not the same thing as leveling access to resources, such as food, shelter and healthcare.

There are complete entitled assholes who have money, no denying it, but to paint everyone who looks at themselves as successful (and by implication, other people as less successful, or as you put it "losers") is dishonest. We always assume that everyone would end up in the same place with money given the same opportunities, but that is just flat out a bad assumption.

There are ugly poor people who make just as ugly rich people, which just informs me that ugliness has more to do with personal character than with the abundance or lack of money. If we're worrying about babies starving in Africa, much less our inner cities and demonizing people who accumulate wealth as bad world citizens, you forget that just redistributing wealth and even just opportunity still won't solve any of the causes of people starving in Africa, or in the inner cities.

I do agree with you that people who engage the political system to preserve their wealth at the expense of preserving America are horrible people. But when you punish THOSE people, you cast a very wide net based only on some idea of income, and not who you voted for or why. Yes, wealthy don't pay taxes proportionate to their net worth, but net effective tax means that they almost always do pay scale for their "simple income", and pay less for investments and holdings. If you had to clear 40% of your invested income every year, you'd have to sell a bunch of your holdings to do so, and those companies faced with giant sell-offs every year would be forced to do giant layoffs. So the government typically taxes less for capital gains than for regular income and if you add the two together you end up with what appears to be an unfair net effective tax.

I do believe in paying fair taxes. I do not believe in paying punitive taxes because people believe the world is inherently unfair and want to take it out on a particular group of people.
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  -Yes, absolutely, let's punish success. Naturyl  Apr-21-10 09:58 AM   #0 
  - Lets face it. "Success" means having a rich dad.  Oregone   Apr-21-10 10:00 AM   #1 
  - Ding-ding. Ding-ding. Ding-ding. We have a winner.  Kerrytravelers   Apr-21-10 10:01 AM   #2 
  - That's it in a nut shell!  havocmom   Apr-21-10 10:01 AM   #3 
  - Too often these Libertarian types refuse to recognize that aspect  treestar   Apr-21-10 10:02 AM   #5 
  - all the people i know of wealth were self-made.  spanone   Apr-21-10 03:51 PM   #104 
  - Can you get me a date with one?  Kolesar   Apr-21-10 04:31 PM   #106 
  - You know a lot of em?  Oregone   Apr-21-10 09:37 PM   #112 
  - My friends are Old Money then. By comparison.  Hardrada   Apr-22-10 12:42 AM   #116 
  - and they literally started out with nothing?  unpossibles   Apr-22-10 10:06 AM   #142 
  - No such thing.  HughBeaumont   Apr-22-10 11:20 AM   #149 
  - A 100% true, real-life "rich dad" success (actually, failure) story...  Amerigo Vespucci   Apr-22-10 08:57 AM   #131 
  - You nailed it.  Ticonderoga   Apr-22-10 10:49 AM   #143 
  - How about if success is rising from blue collar to factory owner...  mainer   Apr-21-10 10:01 AM   #4 
  - Everyone claims wealth is a meritocracy.  Naturyl   Apr-21-10 10:03 AM   #6 
  - Which I find ironic  kenfrequed   Apr-22-10 08:45 AM   #125 
  - In the rare cases where that happens  treestar   Apr-21-10 10:03 AM   # 
  - by all means, off with JK Rowling's head  mainer   Apr-21-10 10:04 AM   #8 
     - Has JK Rowling moved here to get out of paying high taxes yet?  redqueen   Apr-21-10 10:05 AM   #10 
     - Maybe you missed the fact I was being sarcastic  mainer   Apr-21-10 10:07 AM   #12 
     - No, I don't believe in "meritocracy" to begin with.  Naturyl   Apr-21-10 10:13 AM   #19 
     - "Repay" to what extent?  Silent3   Apr-21-10 10:39 AM   #49 
     - "Yet the OP would deny that rich people like her exist"  Oregone   Apr-21-10 10:14 AM   #20 
     - Where did the OP say that there is no such thing?  redqueen   Apr-21-10 10:14 AM   #21 
     - OP didn't say that.  Orsino   Apr-21-10 11:45 AM   #60 
     - So she is not claiming her taxes are "punishing" her for success  treestar   Apr-21-10 02:13 PM   #79 
     - Yeah I missed the part where she's complaining about her taxes  treestar   Apr-21-10 02:12 PM   #78 
     - I miss the part where the OP mentions progressive taxes  mainer   Apr-21-10 02:53 PM   #90 
     - Michael Schumacher moved out of Germany  DissedByBush   Apr-22-10 07:23 AM   #119 
        - He's greedy, not evil, and he deserves to be taxed.  redqueen   Apr-22-10 08:53 AM   #127 
           - Greed is what we saw recently here  DissedByBush   Apr-23-10 06:30 PM   #151 
     - Oh Pulease. I bet you did not see JK Rowlings commencement  HillbillyBob   Apr-21-10 10:10 AM   #13 
     - Oh, Puhleese -- did you not get the sarcasm?  mainer   Apr-21-10 10:11 AM   #15 
     - You said that. Not the OP  Bluenorthwest   Apr-21-10 10:23 AM   #36 
     - Wow, you just don't get it. She's not being punished, nor would anyone want to punish her.  EOTE   Apr-21-10 11:31 AM   #56 
     - The OP wants to PUNISH (OP's words) the successful  mainer   Apr-21-10 01:41 PM   #74 
        - The OP is obviously talking about how the Libertarians and free  treestar   Apr-21-10 02:18 PM   #81 
        - That's the problem. It's too obvious.  NoSheep   Apr-21-10 03:44 PM   #100 
        - Apparently you're not familiar with rhetorical techniques.  EOTE   Apr-22-10 08:55 AM   #130 
     - So is your real point that you think her taxes are a punishment?  treestar   Apr-21-10 02:15 PM   #80 
     - My point is the OP wants to punish the successful  mainer   Apr-21-10 02:52 PM   #89 
     - I do NOT think you have any reason to say the OP thinks ALL wealthy people are bad.  NoSheep   Apr-21-10 03:43 PM   #99 
     - Actually you don't get it  kenfrequed   Apr-22-10 09:00 AM   #133 
     - Good for her. If she has "merit," I'd say it's for this  Naturyl   Apr-21-10 10:15 AM   #24 
     - You need to read Ms Rowling's recent piece in the Guardian  Bluenorthwest   Apr-21-10 10:16 AM   #25 
        - My point is that the OP can't distinguish who is being punished  mainer   Apr-21-10 10:18 AM   #29 
        - You're not getting it. I don't care.  Naturyl   Apr-21-10 10:29 AM   #44 
        - The OP does not say what you insist it says.  Bluenorthwest   Apr-21-10 10:30 AM   #46 
           - Then it should say "stop calling crime stories success stories."  mainer   Apr-21-10 03:02 PM   #93 
        - it was in the times, actually  miscsoc   Apr-21-10 01:45 PM   #76 
  - Social mobility in America is dead  Oregone   Apr-21-10 10:03 AM   #7 
  - Everyone gets the benefits of schools, roads, and police.  mainer   Apr-21-10 10:06 AM   #11 
     - LOL  Oregone   Apr-21-10 10:12 AM   #16 
     - Um ... me for example?  mainer   Apr-21-10 10:13 AM   #18 
     - good for you! nt.  druidity33   Apr-21-10 10:16 AM   #26 
     - So you are a rabid exception who has formed an ancedotal rule  Oregone   Apr-21-10 10:17 AM   #28 
     - I as asked to give an example because apparently, it just doesn't happen.  mainer   Apr-21-10 10:20 AM   #33 
     - Of course it happens. We can name plenty of famous people. Afterall, they are famous  Oregone   Apr-21-10 10:24 AM   #39 
     - You weren't asked for an example, you were asked for a percentage.  iris27   Apr-21-10 12:49 PM   #67 
     - Are there statistics on this? Or are you asking the unanswerable?  mainer   Apr-21-10 01:36 PM   #72 
        - I don't know the statistics but I do know studies have shown what a person's father does for a  laughingliberal   Apr-21-10 02:36 PM   #85 
        - Here are some stats:  Oregone   Apr-21-10 03:39 PM   #98 
        - Your statistic is meaningless without defining what wealthy is  Oregone   Apr-21-10 03:30 PM   #97 
     - Uhm  kenfrequed   Apr-22-10 09:22 AM   #138 
     - If I weren't the exception, then everyone would be millionaires  mainer   Apr-21-10 01:37 PM   #73 
        - dupe  Oregone   Apr-21-10 03:23 PM   #95 
        - No, you're the dupe for engaging with such a blatant corporatist troll.  Jim Sagle   Apr-22-10 09:10 AM   #136 
        - Define non-wealthy.  Oregone   Apr-21-10 03:27 PM   #96 
     - Oh, we already knew you were wealthy.  Naturyl   Apr-21-10 10:19 AM   #31 
     - I'm a rich socialist. That's what I am.  mainer   Apr-21-10 10:21 AM   #34 
        - You're a rich socialist?  Naturyl   Apr-21-10 10:23 AM   #38 
        - Socialism does not equal "seizing wealth"  mainer   Apr-21-10 10:25 AM   #40 
           - What do you think it means?  Oregone   Apr-21-10 10:29 AM   #43 
              - he thinks socialism = having a dole.  Hannah Bell   Apr-21-10 01:56 PM   #77 
        - Your thinking is the only Black or White thinking I'm seeing here.  NoSheep   Apr-21-10 03:46 PM   #101 
     - Do you complain about taxes?  treestar   Apr-21-10 02:28 PM   #82 
        - No, I don't. I've repeatedly called for taxes of 50%  mainer   Apr-21-10 02:56 PM   #91 
           - I agree that goes overboard in DU at times  treestar   Apr-21-10 07:26 PM   #111 
           - HELLOOOO!!! That's the point!  verges   Apr-22-10 09:01 AM   #135 
     - +100. nt.  druidity33   Apr-21-10 10:15 AM   #23 
     - Not hard to do at all...just live rent-free w/Mommy and Daddy  InkAddict   Apr-21-10 10:23 AM   #37 
     - If I had a rich dad who died and left me $5 million yesterday.  Hello_Kitty   Apr-21-10 03:15 PM   #94 
  - Yes, because EVERY rich person is a trust fund baby who never  Common Sense Party   Apr-21-10 10:04 AM   #9 
  - And they all twist their black mustaches and cackle evilly  mainer   Apr-21-10 10:10 AM   #14 
  - Don't forget the monocle and top hat.  Common Sense Party   Apr-21-10 10:16 AM   #27 
  - It ain't about 'people'  blindpig   Apr-21-10 10:39 AM   #48 
  - What difference does it make?  treestar   Apr-21-10 02:29 PM   #83 
  - Because those folks...  daleanime   Apr-21-10 10:18 AM   #30 
  - The Obama's made over $5 million last year  Zipp   Apr-21-10 11:42 AM   #57 
  - The former welfare mom you speak of considers paying her high UK taxes to be patriotic.  iris27   Apr-21-10 12:42 PM   #66 
  - lol. well-traveled, college-educated "welfare mother" formerly married to a TV newsman.  Hannah Bell   Apr-21-10 01:41 PM   #75 
  - Ah, yes! Horatio Alger. The story that keeps Americans voting against themselves. nt  laughingliberal   Apr-21-10 02:31 PM   #84 
  - And raising their marginal tax rate from 35% to 39% is a horrible injustice because, why? eom  Hello_Kitty   Apr-21-10 02:47 PM   #86 
  - Where did I call it a horrible injustice? WHERE? You can't answer that, can you?  mainer   Apr-21-10 03:00 PM   #92 
     - You've been told several times on this thread that the reference to "punish" is  iris27   Apr-21-10 09:47 PM   #114 
  - there's no problem with that as long as they  dana_b   Apr-21-10 04:39 PM   #107 
  - That's cool. My hat's off to 'em.  AngryOldDem   Apr-22-10 07:33 AM   #120 
  - then perhaps they don't fit any of the conditionals listed in the OP  fishwax   Apr-22-10 08:59 AM   #132 
  - yes, a successful person who used to live on welfare owes absolutely nothing back to the system  unpossibles   Apr-22-10 11:04 AM   #146 
  - Luxury to me...  BolivarianHero   Apr-21-10 10:12 AM   #17 
  - Sure the hell beats my luxury, $20 for a meal once a month at a OCB  mrcheerful   Apr-21-10 11:43 AM   #58 
     - Ah...  BolivarianHero   Apr-22-10 08:26 AM   #124 
  - It would be nice if we all as a society moved to a different concept of what success means.  eShirl   Apr-21-10 10:14 AM   #22 
  - How about if we first stop rewarding it in excess?  n2doc   Apr-21-10 10:19 AM   #32 
  - Ding Ding Ding  Burma Jones   Apr-21-10 10:27 AM   #41 
  - Yes, if "punish" means reasonable, progressive taxation based on income,  change_notfinetuning   Apr-21-10 10:21 AM   #35 
  - I doubt that's what the OP considers punishment  mainer   Apr-21-10 10:28 AM   #42 
     - Certainly Congress, Obama, and all Republicans consider it punishment. It  change_notfinetuning   Apr-21-10 10:42 AM   #50 
     - You don't do tongue-in-cheek much?  Oregone   Apr-21-10 10:47 AM   #51 
  - I think (correct me if I'm wrong) the OP was more aiming at the RW phrase "punish success"  av8rdave   Apr-21-10 10:29 AM   #45 
  - That's how I read it, too.  GoCubsGo   Apr-21-10 12:59 PM   #69 
  - Why not move to a third world country and feed a family of 9 on $1.00 a day...n/t  Ozymanithrax   Apr-21-10 10:34 AM   #47 
  - OK - gimme details  dmallind   Apr-21-10 11:04 AM   #52 
  - No one gets rich in a vacuum  Cresent City Kid   Apr-21-10 11:12 AM   #53 
  - Successful People,  On the Road   Apr-21-10 11:19 AM   #54 
  - Right! Get an education and work hard...  Zipp   Apr-21-10 09:46 PM   #113 
  - Tax wealth, not work  SocialistLez   Apr-21-10 11:27 AM   #55 
  - I've got no problem with taxing both...  Orsino   Apr-21-10 11:43 AM   #59 
     - I see what you're saying and I agree. NT  SocialistLez   Apr-21-10 11:53 AM   #61 
  - I sometimes wonder if these "eat the rich" threads are by GOP trolls  mainer   Apr-21-10 11:55 AM   #62 
  - It plays to everything in 'Atlas Shrugged' by Rand,  ZeitgeistObserver   Apr-21-10 12:01 PM   #63 
  - What a fucking laugh  blindpig   Apr-21-10 12:30 PM   #65 
  - I don't think they are. I think we are Democrats who never bought into Reagan's crap  laughingliberal   Apr-21-10 02:49 PM   #87 
  - I thought it was more of an "Eat the STINKING Rich" kind of thread-LOL  NoSheep   Apr-21-10 03:47 PM   #103 
  - I am Glad Someone Has The Courage To Stand Up for the Rich (TM)  conspirator   Apr-21-10 03:57 PM   #105 
  - LOL  Lilith Velkor   Apr-22-10 01:07 AM   #117 
  - Again you equate wealth to "success"  Naturyl   Apr-21-10 05:16 PM   #108 
  - I've got your back on that  sui generis   Apr-22-10 12:16 PM   #150 
  - Success should not be punished. Benefiting from a lack of fairness is not success.  jotsy   Apr-21-10 12:17 PM   #64 
  - Is taxing wealth punishing success?  av8rdave   Apr-21-10 01:31 PM   #71 
     - I measure by merit, not means.  jotsy   Apr-22-10 01:28 AM   #118 
  - From those to whom much is given, much is expected in return.  TwilightGardener   Apr-21-10 12:57 PM   #68 
  - Luke 12:48  ZeitgeistObserver   Apr-21-10 01:29 PM   #70 
  - Hell I got more taxes back this year than I ever did under Bush!  B Calm   Apr-21-10 02:49 PM   #88 
  - A-FUCKING-MEN!!!  Odin2005   Apr-21-10 03:47 PM   #102 
  - reinvest the investments that made it possible  Spike89   Apr-21-10 05:22 PM   #109 
  - Hell yes!  Kitty Herder   Apr-21-10 05:31 PM   #110 
  - I'm just amazed at how many on this thread actually defend fat cats  Wednesdays   Apr-21-10 11:21 PM   #115 
  - I'm not. Not at all.  AngryOldDem   Apr-22-10 07:38 AM   #121 
  - yes, and many people who have those resources do.  sui generis   Apr-22-10 08:19 AM   #123 
     - True enough, but...  AngryOldDem   Apr-22-10 08:50 AM   #126 
     - I'll agree with that for sure.  sui generis   Apr-22-10 09:15 AM   #137 
        - I agree wholeheartedly with your last paragraph.  AngryOldDem   Apr-22-10 11:09 AM   #147 
     - Nice strawman!  redqueen   Apr-22-10 08:55 AM   #129 
        - it always amazes me  sui generis   Apr-22-10 09:00 AM   #134 
           - Err...  kenfrequed   Apr-22-10 09:31 AM   #139 
              - what in hell are you babbling about?  sui generis   Apr-22-10 09:51 AM   #141 
                 - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-22-10 10:58 AM   #144 
                    - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-22-10 11:04 AM   #145 
                    - self delete  sui generis   Apr-22-10 11:18 AM   #148 
  - I think they're greedy and selfish themselves...  redqueen   Apr-22-10 08:54 AM   #128 
  - I have to piss in your wheaties, and I'm not sorry.  sui generis   Apr-22-10 08:15 AM   #122 
  - For those of you trying to dispute the OP with examples of self made millionaires.  athenasatanjesus   Apr-22-10 09:47 AM   #140 
  - I would rec if I could  Taverner   Apr-23-10 06:33 PM   #152 

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