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Reply #100: Red ochre and vermillion in a collagen tempera medium... [View All]

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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #66
100. Red ochre and vermillion in a collagen tempera medium...
http://mcri.org/home/section/63-64/the-shroud-of-turin

According to Dr. Walter McCrone and his colleagues, the 3+ by 14+ foot cloth depicting Christs crucified body is an inspired painting produced by a Medieval artist just before its first appearance in recorded history in 1356.

The faint sepia image is made up of billions of submicron pigment particles (red ochre and vermilion) in a collagen tempera medium. The pigments red ochre and vermilion with the collagen tempera medium was a common paint composition during the 14th century; before which, no one had ever heard of the Shroud.


Sid
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  -Anybody see that History Channel show about the 3D Shroud of Turin image? Duer 157099  Apr-04-10 03:20 PM   #0 
  - watched but was busy cooking and doing dishes  KILL THE WISE ONE   Apr-04-10 03:24 PM   #1 
  - The subtext though was how such a 3D-renderable image was created  Duer 157099   Apr-04-10 03:35 PM   #9 
     - IIRC, it was determined at least a decade ago that the cloth iteslf was made  old mark   Apr-05-10 04:30 AM   #148 
        - Actually, that's in question, now, too.  Kalyke   Apr-05-10 12:44 PM   #166 
           - Just steal the fucking thing and burn it. No more "controversy".  old mark   Apr-05-10 03:37 PM   #175 
              - Yeah, because when I'm sure I'm right, the first thing I want to do is destroy any evidence.  11 Bravo   Apr-05-10 03:41 PM   #176 
                 - Yep, and fire up the bulldozers  pipoman   Apr-05-10 09:58 PM   #195 
                 - Look the "shroud" is a fucking carnival attraction made up to impress ignorant peasants.  old mark   Apr-06-10 07:09 PM   #209 
  - Stopped watching the "History" channel years ago  Hugabear   Apr-04-10 03:27 PM   #2 
  - bigfoot is real  KILL THE WISE ONE   Apr-04-10 03:43 PM   #18 
  - mmmmmmmkay....  Hugabear   Apr-04-10 03:49 PM   #24 
     - They are exceptionally wily prey  KILL THE WISE ONE   Apr-04-10 03:56 PM   #32 
     - I cannot believe something for which there is no evidence whatsoever  Hugabear   Apr-04-10 04:02 PM   #38 
     - your no fun, bring your camping gear and we can go hunt one for the july 4th  KILL THE WISE ONE   Apr-04-10 04:48 PM   #64 
     - Here ya go...  awoke_in_2003   Apr-04-10 09:46 PM   #129 
     - And whenever one dies, their family buries it in the earth very very  truedelphi   Apr-04-10 09:13 PM   #123 
     - well, actually, there is some scientific evidence for it  semillama   Apr-05-10 10:12 AM   #160 
  - We call it the Hitler Channel.  MUAD_DIB   Apr-05-10 10:04 PM   #197 
  - It's been resolved  Birthmark   Apr-04-10 03:28 PM   #3 
  - +1  HuckleB   Apr-04-10 08:02 PM   #116 
  - Ditto.  Greybnk48   Apr-04-10 09:04 PM   #121 
  - Every objective, scientific test ever done on the Shroud of Turin shows it's a Medieval forgery.  baldguy   Apr-04-10 03:29 PM   #4 
  - And also the weave wasn't invented for some 200 years after his death.  RC   Apr-04-10 03:41 PM   #14 
  - really ? Who invented that weave?  zeemike   Apr-04-10 05:12 PM   #73 
  - The person who created the Shroud confessed.  alfredo   Apr-04-10 06:15 PM   #99 
     - There are all kinds of responses I could give to that  zeemike   Apr-04-10 08:56 PM   #119 
        - Get some theatrical makeup, Cover your face with it. Now  alfredo   Apr-04-10 09:24 PM   #125 
           - And it would look nothing like a person  zeemike   Apr-04-10 09:36 PM   #127 
              - The man who made it confessed. Around that time  alfredo   Apr-04-10 10:38 PM   #134 
                 - Rome was not trying to insult the Jews...  zeemike   Apr-04-10 11:06 PM   #136 
                    - How could it have appeared in 14th century Italy and  alfredo   Apr-04-10 11:34 PM   #138 
                       - There are a couple of pictorial descriptions of it  WolverineDG   Apr-04-10 11:47 PM   #139 
                       - Speculation is fun, this one has been refuted for  alfredo   Apr-05-10 12:32 AM   #142 
                          - But how did he manage to create a 3D image on a flat surface? nt  WolverineDG   Apr-05-10 09:07 AM   #154 
                          - What do you mean by a 3D image on a flat surface?  alfredo   Apr-05-10 10:58 AM   #162 
                             - The "miracle" isn't the fact that 3D info is encoded in a 2D image.  baldguy   Apr-05-10 04:29 PM   #183 
                                - I'm still amazed that people see that grotesque painting  alfredo   Apr-05-10 05:13 PM   #185 
                          - actually, it appears the artist confessed to his predecessor  WolverineDG   Apr-05-10 03:49 PM   #178 
                       - Well lets look at it this way.  zeemike   Apr-05-10 06:54 AM   #151 
                          - They swaddled the body. A separate cloth is used for the head.  alfredo   Apr-05-10 11:27 AM   #164 
                             - The body was put in a rich mans tomb.  zeemike   Apr-05-10 12:35 PM   #165 
                                - Why would they abandon Jewish burial customs? Jews are  alfredo   Apr-05-10 05:10 PM   #184 
                                   - And is not a part of that burial gown a strip of cloth that covers the  zeemike   Apr-05-10 07:19 PM   #189 
                                      - We do know the religious laws of the time. We know a lot  alfredo   Apr-05-10 08:21 PM   #190 
                                      - "science should not be making guesses based on scant evidence"  sybylla   Apr-06-10 07:53 AM   #203 
                                         - And how much of the tones of documents survived.  zeemike   Apr-06-10 09:12 AM   #205 
  - Jesus did NOT wear a weave! YOU TAKE THAT BACK!  salguine   Apr-04-10 06:03 PM   #95 
     - Lol !  TheDebbieDee   Apr-04-10 06:26 PM   #102 
     - really laughing out loud  mrs_p   Apr-04-10 09:19 PM   #124 
  - Facts do not matter to those who cling to "faith"  Hugabear   Apr-04-10 03:52 PM   #27 
  - How was it done?  rug   Apr-04-10 03:53 PM   #29 
  - It wasn't made by wrapping a dead body with that cloth, that's for sure.  baldguy   Apr-04-10 04:12 PM   #44 
     - OK. But forgery usually means it was actually forged.  rug   Apr-04-10 04:19 PM   #51 
     - you probably should have watched that program  zeemike   Apr-04-10 05:16 PM   #78 
        - Let me guess - it was a "miracle", right?  baldguy   Apr-04-10 06:52 PM   #104 
           - One man's miracle is another mans enigmatic phenomenon.  zeemike   Apr-04-10 09:02 PM   #120 
              - One man's venerated relic is another man's con job.  baldguy   Apr-05-10 05:30 AM   #150 
  - Could be, but what a supernatural mind he must have had for that time...  demosincebirth   Apr-04-10 03:54 PM   #30 
  - ALL the scientists who examined it said so - PAINT PIGMENTS and cloth made in 1000 AD or so...  TankLV   Apr-04-10 04:34 PM   #58 
  - You are totally wrong. You just made that up. Right?  demosincebirth   Apr-04-10 04:47 PM   #63 
  - Bullshit my "friend" - ALL the scientists who examined it PROVED it to be a FAKE.  TankLV   Apr-04-10 05:14 PM   #75 
  - give me a reputable link that shows that the Vatican says its fake.  demosincebirth   Apr-04-10 09:59 PM   #131 
     - The Vatican. Always reliable when it comes to the truth.  Warren DeMontague   Apr-05-10 02:42 AM   #143 
  - Red ochre and vermillion, in a collagen tempera medium...  SidDithers   Apr-04-10 06:14 PM   #98 
  - Actually, the Vatican hasn't said yay or nay  WolverineDG   Apr-04-10 07:39 PM   #113 
  - so all the scientists in the documentary were lying?  dionysus   Apr-06-10 09:52 AM   #207 
  - Not to be antagonistic, but WTF?  Greyhound   Apr-05-10 02:54 AM   #145 
  - And all test that lend doubt to that is not objective.  zeemike   Apr-04-10 05:08 PM   #71 
  - and every self-respecting church  awoke_in_2003   Apr-04-10 09:48 PM   #130 
  - I Remember This Being Put To Bed Like A Decade Ago  ChoppinBroccoli   Apr-04-10 11:15 PM   #137 
  - I can't remember where I saw it, some special probably 5-10 years ago,  Better Today   Apr-04-10 03:30 PM   #5 
  - I thought that there was a scientific conclusion made that the shroud  Cleita   Apr-04-10 03:30 PM   #6 
  - I think there was a carbon-dating study that produced that result  Jackpine Radical   Apr-04-10 03:33 PM   #8 
  - Well they discussed that  Duer 157099   Apr-04-10 03:39 PM   #12 
  - I think the test was from the corner singed by fire  Tom Rinaldo   Apr-04-10 03:52 PM   #28 
  - Contaminates? also repaired  cayanne   Apr-04-10 07:06 PM   #106 
     - A patch. Right, that was it. Thanks  Tom Rinaldo   Apr-04-10 07:21 PM   #111 
  - It's the History Channel; they would *NEVER* piss off the majority of their audience...  Tesha   Apr-04-10 05:06 PM   #70 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-04-10 03:48 PM   #23 
  - Two microfibers is pretty thin.  rug   Apr-04-10 03:33 PM   #7 
  - Was that the depth of the image?  Duer 157099   Apr-04-10 03:45 PM   #21 
     - Yes. They said if you shaved it with a razor the entire image would disappear.  rug   Apr-04-10 03:51 PM   #26 
        - Some form of radiation?  demosincebirth   Apr-04-10 03:57 PM   #33 
        - I just heard them mention light.  rug   Apr-04-10 04:05 PM   #41 
           - Can't say it here, it'll start a war!  demosincebirth   Apr-04-10 04:12 PM   #43 
           - Mmmm, probably similar to when that guy said "Let there be light" or something n/t  Duer 157099   Apr-04-10 04:13 PM   #45 
           - at the time it was made, the only thing that comes to mind is a lightning strike.  KittyWampus   Apr-04-10 04:16 PM   #48 
           - Now *that* is an interesting comment  Duer 157099   Apr-04-10 04:23 PM   #53 
           - Becoming a God  cayanne   Apr-04-10 07:11 PM   #108 
        - WRONG! It has been PROVEN to be PAINT already!!!  TankLV   Apr-04-10 04:35 PM   #59 
           - Why, thank you for providing a link to accompany your exclamation points.  rug   Apr-04-10 04:50 PM   #66 
           - exclamation points are not proof unless there's also some 11's in the mix  WolverineDG   Apr-04-10 04:57 PM   #68 
           - Wrong. Stop spreading the LIES.  TankLV   Apr-04-10 05:15 PM   #77 
           - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-04-10 05:43 PM   #89 
           - Not according to this  WolverineDG   Apr-04-10 10:05 PM   #133 
           - Oh, yeah, Wikipedia. Truly a definitive source for truth. Just like the Vatican.  Warren DeMontague   Apr-05-10 02:50 AM   #144 
              - God does not have to respond to childish demands for command performances  WolverineDG   Apr-05-10 09:10 AM   #155 
                 - "Malcontents"? Whatever. Tell it to Giordano Bruno.  Warren DeMontague   Apr-05-10 11:27 AM   #163 
                    - Jump to conclusions much?  WolverineDG   Apr-05-10 03:53 PM   #180 
           - RAR!!11!!1!!!  dionysus   Apr-06-10 09:50 AM   #206 
           - You probably don't want to use wiki as a source for any religious debates.  Greyhound   Apr-05-10 04:28 AM   #147 
              - well, it's a starting point  WolverineDG   Apr-05-10 09:11 AM   #156 
                 - That's the point, it doesn't. If you actually read the cites the crazy people used,  Greyhound   Apr-05-10 02:13 PM   #173 
                    - and then there are studies that show it's not paint  WolverineDG   Apr-05-10 03:24 PM   #174 
                       - No, there aren't. At least none from any reputable source. You didn't read the citation, did you? n/...  Greyhound   Apr-05-10 04:22 PM   #182 
                          - I saw the show  WolverineDG   Apr-05-10 09:51 PM   #193 
                             - No, read the study. There's a link to it upthread. n/t  Greyhound   Apr-05-10 11:34 PM   #199 
                                - Sorry, not talking to someone who didn't watch the show nt  WolverineDG   Apr-06-10 06:54 AM   #201 
           - Red ochre and vermillion in a collagen tempera medium...  SidDithers   Apr-04-10 06:15 PM   #100 
              - That conclusion appears to be disputed.  rug   Apr-04-10 07:28 PM   #112 
           - No it has not nt  cayanne   Apr-04-10 07:15 PM   #110 
           - but don't let that stand in the way of selling a tv show to people who desperately  piratefish08   Apr-05-10 06:56 AM   #152 
  - Saw an interesting one recently suggesting Da Vinci did it with a  theophilus   Apr-04-10 03:36 PM   #10 
  - That's the one I saw, it also mentioned IIRC that the human face wouldn't  Better Today   Apr-04-10 03:39 PM   #11 
  - I didn't see that but it sounds fascinating  Duer 157099   Apr-04-10 03:42 PM   #17 
  - The body proportions are all wrong.  Warren DeMontague   Apr-04-10 03:42 PM   #16 
     - I did notice that, plus I noticed that they ignored it, too n/t  Duer 157099   Apr-04-10 03:43 PM   #19 
     - No, the distortions were from the body being bound up  cayanne   Apr-04-10 07:14 PM   #109 
     - For a mortal, of course. But Jesus was not just another mortal  kenny blankenship   Apr-04-10 04:00 PM   #35 
     - Good point  Duer 157099   Apr-04-10 04:03 PM   #39 
     - if it is an image taken via light source, perhaps distortion due to angle while subject moved?  KittyWampus   Apr-04-10 04:17 PM   #49 
     - There is a theory  Caretha   Apr-04-10 05:21 PM   #84 
     - But his mortal body WAS just another mortal body.  Beartracks   Apr-04-10 04:37 PM   #60 
     - That's not quite true. At the instant of his resurrection, his body became divine  Duer 157099   Apr-04-10 04:54 PM   #67 
        - OK. Good point. n/t  Beartracks   Apr-04-10 05:11 PM   #72 
        - Pics or it didn't happen.  Onceuponalife   Apr-04-10 05:33 PM   #86 
     - You forgot the "sarcasm" thingy...  TankLV   Apr-04-10 04:37 PM   #61 
     - Sarcasm tags take all the fun out of it  kenny blankenship   Apr-04-10 04:49 PM   #65 
     - Yes, he was  Onceuponalife   Apr-04-10 05:31 PM   #85 
     - He had extra long legs from all that Dino ridin'!  Warren DeMontague   Apr-05-10 12:23 AM   #141 
     - But they're completely in line with western art at the time.  Marr   Apr-04-10 09:09 PM   #122 
  - Yes and I was impressed with the technology and creativity that will be followed by many other  jody   Apr-04-10 03:40 PM   #13 
  - It's been carbon dated to the middle ages.  Warren DeMontague   Apr-04-10 03:42 PM   #15 
  - Carbon dating has it only going back to the middle ages. This was solved several years  OmmmSweetOmmm   Apr-04-10 03:44 PM   #20 
  - Here's a link to the Da Vinci thingy.....  theophilus   Apr-04-10 03:47 PM   #22 
  - Thanks, will check it out  Duer 157099   Apr-04-10 04:13 PM   #46 
  - Whether it is the image of Jesus or not, I'm fascinated  finecraft   Apr-04-10 03:50 PM   #25 
  - Me too, That's where I'm coming from.  Duer 157099   Apr-04-10 03:58 PM   #34 
  - but was it serendipity or did they know what they were doing?  eShirl   Apr-04-10 04:20 PM   #52 
  - I found it very fascinating, myself.  calimary   Apr-04-10 10:38 PM   #135 
  - Ditto. Didn't watch the show, though.  GreenPartyVoter   Apr-05-10 07:03 PM   #188 
  - Two different carbon datings have shown that the shroud is not old enough  Bitwit1234   Apr-04-10 03:54 PM   #31 
  - I can tell you what the "faithful" probably think  Duer 157099   Apr-04-10 04:01 PM   #36 
     - But isn't God also trying to fool the faithful?  Onceuponalife   Apr-04-10 05:36 PM   #88 
        - Well, considering that I think God is bipolar...  Duer 157099   Apr-04-10 05:51 PM   #92 
  - The show's just coming on again on the History Channel n/t  finecraft   Apr-04-10 04:01 PM   #37 
  - Without HC what would anyone know about Atlantis, or flying saucers or the Shroud of Turin?  kenny blankenship   Apr-04-10 04:11 PM   #42 
     - I knew plenty about all of those things before HC  Duer 157099   Apr-04-10 04:14 PM   #47 
     - Leonard Nimoy told me about them on "In Search Of"  csziggy   Apr-04-10 04:32 PM   #57 
  - Like the "Face on Mars" and Nostradamus' "predictions"  AzNick   Apr-04-10 04:04 PM   #40 
  - False analogies  Duer 157099   Apr-04-10 04:18 PM   #50 
  - Yep I LOVED the WHITE nordic Jesus that emerged  nadinbrzezinski   Apr-04-10 04:25 PM   #54 
  - Nordic? I didn't get that n/t  Duer 157099   Apr-04-10 04:27 PM   #55 
  - they haven't done the reveal yet  WolverineDG   Apr-04-10 05:48 PM   #91 
  - Yes - and I was agast - what they try to spew is 180 degrees opposite from the truth.  TankLV   Apr-04-10 04:31 PM   #56 
  - It's interesting so far  WolverineDG   Apr-04-10 04:44 PM   #62 
  - Seems that some people can't figure out WHY someone would make a fake.  DawgHouse   Apr-04-10 05:00 PM   #69 
  - In the Middle Ages, all Cathredals needed a religious relic  WeDidIt   Apr-04-10 05:14 PM   #74 
  - Especially that skull of John the Baptist when he was 12 years old. *THAT* was great one. (NT)  Tesha   Apr-04-10 05:15 PM   #76 
  - Exactly - big tourist attractions to go along with the next BIG CATHEDRAL.,  TankLV   Apr-04-10 05:17 PM   #81 
  - And Turin had a huge draw with the Shroud of Christ.  WeDidIt   Apr-04-10 05:19 PM   #82 
     - Chartres had the Holy Foreskin of Jesus. Now that's a draw.  kenny blankenship   Apr-04-10 06:44 PM   #103 
        - there were also many claimed Jesus shrouds  TorchTheWitch   Apr-05-10 03:37 AM   #146 
  - "I seek the Holy Grail!"  lumberjack_jeff   Apr-05-10 03:53 PM   #179 
  - raising money = good reason to create a fake relic  WolverineDG   Apr-04-10 05:47 PM   #90 
  - I watched and read about it  get the red out   Apr-04-10 05:17 PM   #79 
  - Red Ochre  vogonity   Apr-04-10 05:17 PM   #80 
  - Seemed like a load of bullshit to me. Try this: put some paint  Vickers   Apr-04-10 05:19 PM   #83 
  - I watched it. It was pretty interesting.  Joanne98   Apr-04-10 05:35 PM   #87 
  - Rather than watch any so called news channel today  katmondoo   Apr-04-10 05:56 PM   #93 
  - It's been playing this weekend ad nauseum  Th1onein   Apr-04-10 05:57 PM   #94 
  - Well, I would imagine that with crucifixion being a common form of punishment for the Romans to use,  notadmblnd   Apr-04-10 06:03 PM   #96 
  - The Shroud isn't Jesus...  SidDithers   Apr-04-10 06:06 PM   #97 
  - I think the whole story is nothing more than myth.  Xicano   Apr-04-10 06:22 PM   #101 
  - Since it is quite obviously drawn the materials questions are weird to me  Kurt_and_Hunter   Apr-04-10 06:56 PM   #105 
  - OK, let me try to clearly make one point that they asserted on the show  Duer 157099   Apr-04-10 07:06 PM   #107 
     - Cover face in pigment. Press face into linen  vogonity   Apr-04-10 07:43 PM   #114 
        - And that image, created by paint on the face,  Duer 157099   Apr-04-10 07:52 PM   #115 
           - So you put stuff on your face  Confusious   Apr-04-10 09:59 PM   #132 
  - The episode they did on Lincoln was pretty interesting too. n/t  tammywammy   Apr-04-10 08:03 PM   #117 
  - No. Luckily, we don't bother to pay for cable.  HuckleB   Apr-04-10 08:05 PM   #118 
  - Is it Easter already?  Iggo   Apr-04-10 09:30 PM   #126 
  - I always thought the Shroud of Turin was Mick Fleetwood  devilgrrl   Apr-04-10 09:44 PM   #128 
  - If there's one thing more phony than the Shroud of Turin...  HiFructosePronSyrup   Apr-04-10 11:50 PM   #140 
  - FWIW, the temples of some of the Greek gods had devices by which  old mark   Apr-05-10 04:41 AM   #149 
  - it would be a simple thing to stop the debate  RainDog   Apr-05-10 07:00 AM   #153 
  - I watched it, but even if it is a real shroud and all, how many men looked like that back then?  bamacrat   Apr-05-10 09:24 AM   #157 
  - it was a facinating show, I wish some of the "experts" posting here had watched it  G_j   Apr-05-10 09:43 AM   #158 
  - because these "experts" know that some forger back in the Middle Ages  WolverineDG   Apr-05-10 10:04 AM   #159 
  - when someone appears to have a hostile attitude,  G_j   Apr-05-10 10:22 AM   #161 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-05-10 01:08 PM   #168 
     - just more snark  G_j   Apr-05-10 01:11 PM   #169 
     - No, I got that.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Apr-05-10 01:15 PM   #170 
        - yea, and some anonymous person on the internet told me that, without a link  G_j   Apr-05-10 09:07 PM   #191 
     - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-05-10 04:04 PM   #181 
  - This thread's gotten into a tizzy for no reason.  Kalyke   Apr-05-10 01:05 PM   #167 
  - The Flat Earth Society strikes again!!  Swamp Rat   Apr-05-10 01:16 PM   #171 
  - "...a tooth from the jaw of St. Jerome!"  saltpoint   Apr-05-10 09:51 PM   #194 
     - "... curses, pardons, and selling the sexual favors of nuns."  Swamp Rat   Apr-06-10 02:46 AM   #200 
        - Wul goddurn! I'll take half a dozen of everything!  saltpoint   Apr-06-10 07:47 PM   #210 
  - In a related story...  spinbaby   Apr-05-10 01:33 PM   #172 
  - I know this must be fascinating to many people.  timtom   Apr-05-10 03:46 PM   #177 
  - ... a dependent arising.  RagAss   Apr-05-10 06:13 PM   #186 
  - Possibly a new consideration - it's my understanding that  hedgehog   Apr-05-10 06:34 PM   #187 
  - ^ That's true , Hedgehog ^ (And I did watch the program.)  Mimosa   Apr-05-10 09:49 PM   #192 
  - That's what has me wondering  WolverineDG   Apr-05-10 10:01 PM   #196 
  - Wake me up when they have a 3D image of noahs ark and Adam & Eve's remains  951-Riverside   Apr-05-10 10:09 PM   #198 
  - It was resolved. The shroud is a fake. It was conclusively debunked by Carbon-14 dating years ago.  salguine   Apr-06-10 07:04 AM   #202 
  - A scam claiming to prove the existence of a myth.  mr blur   Apr-06-10 08:25 AM   #204 
  - The Shroud of Turin ........ The original ShamWow  Stevenmarc   Apr-06-10 09:57 AM   #208 
 

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