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Reply #119: No, the invisible hand is meaningful [View All]

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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-10 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #110
119. No, the invisible hand is meaningful
It's not at all like something uber-flimsy like race.

The invisible hand is a metaphor for a mathematical process that nobody denies. If someone then says that price discovery involves virtue or morality they're nuts, but the underlying concept is sound and infinitely testable.

It is important to separate ideas from their craziest interpretations.

For instance, evolution has been the topic of more mysticism and moralizing and general gibberish than almost any idea, but evolution itself isn't the problem.

But unlike evolution and market economics (which are almost the same idea, actually) race started out as an arbitrary social concept. It isn't a perverted scientific idea but rather a social idea that was then pervertedly treated as scientific.
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  -"Race may not even exist" - I've heard this a few times Taverner  Mar-19-10 04:24 PM   #0 
  - The idea of "race"; that 3 colors, white, black, and asian exist, is a myth  ck4829   Mar-19-10 04:27 PM   #1 
  - Very true...  Taverner   Mar-19-10 04:29 PM   #3 
     - EU Passports with a race section?  Call Me Wesley   Mar-19-10 06:29 PM   #83 
     - It doesn't??? Now I want to know for sure  Taverner   Mar-19-10 06:33 PM   #85 
        - Nope - you are right - all apologies  Taverner   Mar-19-10 06:34 PM   #86 
     - EU passports do NOT have a section for 'race'  anigbrowl   Mar-19-10 07:15 PM   #109 
  - There was a terriblew dyoff of humans, not that long ago, and so, there is very little genetic  Gman2   Mar-19-10 04:28 PM   #2 
  - Really? Now this is f'ing intersting  Taverner   Mar-19-10 04:29 PM   #4 
  - Toba catastrophe population bottleneck  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 04:35 PM   #13 
     - So do we have any mitochondrial DNA in fossils from the ancestors that did not fare so well?  Taverner   Mar-19-10 04:36 PM   #15 
        - You'd have to check Neanderthal and Hobbit DNA  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 04:40 PM   #19 
        - Oh yeah there was that "hobbit" fossil they found in Sumatra  Taverner   Mar-19-10 04:43 PM   #21 
           - Yeah, a lot more is known about it now,  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 04:46 PM   #22 
        - I believe scientists have already compared some mDNA from early human ancestors.  4lbs   Mar-19-10 06:45 PM   #95 
  - "Dyoff"?  Berry Cool   Mar-19-10 04:33 PM   #10 
  - it does not exist as a biological thing  Enrique   Mar-19-10 04:29 PM   #5 
  - Well there IS a term called race in Biology  Taverner   Mar-19-10 04:32 PM   #7 
     - Well, yeah, but not in humans.  iris27   Mar-19-10 07:28 PM   #111 
  - There's no such thing as race.  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 04:31 PM   #6 
  - Thanks!  Taverner   Mar-19-10 04:32 PM   #9 
  - If there is a genetic definition, we haven't found it yet.  Orsino   Mar-19-10 05:56 PM   #69 
  - race is a "social construct" -  mzteris   Mar-19-10 04:32 PM   #8 
  - I'm becoming consigned to the following adage:  ShortnFiery   Mar-19-10 04:34 PM   #11 
  - From what I read, "race" has to do with adaptation  texastoast   Mar-19-10 04:34 PM   # 
  - Here is a book about that  G_j   Mar-19-10 04:34 PM   #12 
  - " the word "race" does not even appear in history until the time of Christopher Columbus"  Taverner   Mar-19-10 04:37 PM   #16 
     - It was hardly a new concept, regardless of etymology.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Mar-19-10 04:53 PM   #26 
  - Ethnicity is more meaningful, yet still cultural  Political Heretic   Mar-19-10 04:36 PM   #14 
  - There's no scientific basis for the modern concept of race.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Mar-19-10 04:39 PM   #17 
  - Homo Sapiens is a visual creature  Taverner   Mar-19-10 04:40 PM   #18 
  - We all come from Africa, and all have the same DNA.  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 04:42 PM   #20 
  - Therefore, there's no such thing as America, right?  HiFructosePronSyrup   Mar-19-10 04:46 PM   #23 
     - try reading reply #6 nt  G_j   Mar-19-10 04:50 PM   #24 
     - I read it. It's wrong.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Mar-19-10 04:52 PM   #25 
        - Sorry, only one race, human.  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 04:58 PM   #27 
        - Being purposefully obtuse won't change the fact that there are numerous races.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Mar-19-10 04:59 PM   #30 
           - If there are numerous races, how would you define each?  Taverner   Mar-19-10 05:02 PM   #33 
           - Sorry, none. Take the non-science elsewhere Dr Woo-Woo.  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 05:03 PM   #36 
              - As I clearly stated in my original post, this is not a scientific argument.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Mar-19-10 05:04 PM   #38 
                 - Yes, actually it is.  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 05:07 PM   #41 
                 - No shit.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Mar-19-10 05:12 PM   #47 
                    - Race does not exist scientifically, as I said.  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 05:22 PM   #54 
                       - You said race doesn't exist period.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Mar-19-10 05:25 PM   #55 
                          - It doesn't.  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 05:26 PM   #57 
                             - And I'm not responsible for your denials.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Mar-19-10 05:30 PM   #58 
                                - You aren't even responsible for your low IQ.  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 05:35 PM   #61 
                                   - If I've got a low IQ...  HiFructosePronSyrup   Mar-19-10 05:37 PM   #63 
                                      - I'm sure your low IQ sees it that way.  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 05:39 PM   #65 
                                         - Well, let's see...  HiFructosePronSyrup   Mar-19-10 05:52 PM   #68 
                                         - No, sorry. I won't go along with misquotes either.  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 06:16 PM   #77 
                 - A sociological argument perhaps  Taverner   Mar-19-10 05:15 PM   #52 
        - OK mister smarty pants - riddle me this then...  Taverner   Mar-19-10 04:59 PM   #29 
           - The dictionary defines race as...  HiFructosePronSyrup   Mar-19-10 05:02 PM   #32 
              - By that definition, would President Obama not be Negroid nor Caucasian but a 3rd race?  Taverner   Mar-19-10 05:03 PM   #35 
                 - Obama's black.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Mar-19-10 05:04 PM   #37 
                    - But biologically there is that Roulette of inherited characteristics  Taverner   Mar-19-10 05:13 PM   #50 
                       - Biology doesn't enter into this.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Mar-19-10 05:31 PM   #59 
                          - Biology doesn't enter into this. why not?  G_j   Mar-19-10 05:57 PM   #71 
                             - This may be a shock to you, but white supremacists and racists are wrong.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Mar-19-10 06:01 PM   #73 
                                - duh  G_j   Mar-19-10 06:59 PM   #102 
     - American is a nationality, not a race.  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 04:59 PM   #28 
        - Yes but HFPS was arguing that American is a distinction that has no basis in biology  Taverner   Mar-19-10 05:01 PM   #31 
        - It doesn't.  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 05:12 PM   #46 
           - I agree with you 100%  Taverner   Mar-19-10 05:16 PM   #53 
        - No shit. Really? Next you'll be telling me that DU is a website.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Mar-19-10 05:02 PM   #34 
           - It appears I'll have to explain your ass and your elbow.  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 05:05 PM   #39 
              - I'd like to try to see you explaining anything about anything.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Mar-19-10 05:05 PM   #40 
                 - Nothing can be explained to a brick wall.  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 05:08 PM   #42 
                    - There's no scientific basis for a "Great Wall of China"  HiFructosePronSyrup   Mar-19-10 05:11 PM   #45 
                       - I think you've been SMOKING corn syrup.  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 05:12 PM   #48 
                          - I think he mainlines the shit, actually.  Sebastian Doyle   Mar-19-10 05:33 PM   #60 
                          - LOL sounds like it!  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 05:36 PM   #62 
                          - It must be all the fluoride.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Mar-19-10 05:38 PM   #64 
                          - I don't care who you are...  Ignis   Mar-19-10 09:09 PM   #123 
  - exactly  fishwax   Mar-19-10 05:45 PM   #67 
  - People 'believe' in all manner of things.  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 06:18 PM   #78 
     - whether or not there's any such thing as god, there is certainly such a thing as religion  fishwax   Mar-19-10 06:28 PM   #82 
        - Only in some societies.  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 06:37 PM   #89 
           - I didn't say it was the same everywhere  fishwax   Mar-19-10 06:39 PM   #93 
              - You have no idea how odd this sounds to me.  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 06:47 PM   #96 
  - Hi, HFPS. Why are you mixing woo in with your science?  Ignis   Mar-19-10 09:22 PM   #125 
  - The meaning of the word has changed throughout history  DavidDvorkin   Mar-19-10 05:09 PM   #43 
  - It's all melanin and we're all different shades of the same color  Warpy   Mar-19-10 05:10 PM   #44 
  - It's more like latitudinal variations. More than just melanin, bone structure.  Gman2   Mar-19-10 05:13 PM   #49 
  - Although despite this, Mitochondrial Eve is not very far behind  Taverner   Mar-19-10 06:08 PM   #75 
  - Not really, since all variations exist throughout the human population  Warpy   Mar-19-10 06:09 PM   #76 
  - Yup, I'm Celtic, as 'white' as it gets outside  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 05:25 PM   #56 
  - That would mean my race specifier invention is worthless...  yawnmaster   Mar-19-10 07:10 PM   #105 
     - Yeah, I look like a lily white generic northern European  Warpy   Mar-19-10 08:34 PM   #118 
  - We are all cousins. There is no such thing as race.  David Zephyr   Mar-19-10 05:13 PM   #51 
  - Can you provide a single bit of reasonng that races exist?  L. Coyote   Mar-19-10 05:42 PM   #66 
  - Good point  Taverner   Mar-19-10 05:57 PM   #70 
     - Why should we hve to defend reason? Let those who have false ideas try to defend their thinking  L. Coyote   Mar-19-10 06:01 PM   #72 
        - Well there is the argument for it being a Sociological Grouping  Taverner   Mar-19-10 06:06 PM   #74 
           - A 'belief', mostly restricted to those who have to have  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 06:21 PM   #79 
              - No it makes no more difference - but in the eyes of others, it has value as a descriptor  Taverner   Mar-19-10 06:32 PM   #84 
                 - LOL oh there are lots of ways you can differentiate  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 06:34 PM   #87 
                    - Agreed  Taverner   Mar-19-10 06:36 PM   #88 
  - From DNA analysis, you can tell quite accurately where most people came from  FarCenter   Mar-19-10 06:23 PM   #80 
  - You can tell what their ancestors adapted to.  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 06:26 PM   #81 
  - You can tell precisely what your Y and mitochondrial DNA haplogroups are  FarCenter   Mar-19-10 06:38 PM   #90 
  - Not something that comes up on a first date,  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 06:54 PM   #98 
     - Swapping DNA on a first date is probably a bad idea  FarCenter   Mar-19-10 06:57 PM   #100 
        - LOL agreed, in more ways than one.  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 06:59 PM   #101 
  - Agreed  Taverner   Mar-19-10 06:38 PM   #91 
     - Appearance is a poor indicator -- that's why you need to do the DNA analysis  FarCenter   Mar-19-10 06:43 PM   #94 
  - Technically, there are 9 morphological/genetic subspecies of humans.  Xithras   Mar-19-10 06:39 PM   #92 
     - That gives the general picture, although I think there's been a lot more refinement since '94  FarCenter   Mar-19-10 06:54 PM   #99 
     - There are probably also multiple races of subSaharan Africans  FarCenter   Mar-19-10 07:03 PM   #103 
  - Race came about as a construct from "jumping" from one location to another  RainDog   Mar-19-10 06:48 PM   #97 
  - fascinating  Locrian   Mar-19-10 07:05 PM   #104 
  - One of the many things I loved about Star Trek  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 07:11 PM   #107 
  - Race maybe a social construct, but abstracting it doesn't make it any less real  jdp349   Mar-19-10 07:10 PM   #106 
  - Only to people who believe in it.  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 07:14 PM   #108 
     - sure it's an arbitrary grouping of physical characteristics  jdp349   Mar-19-10 07:30 PM   #112 
        - I don't know of any two nations  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 07:54 PM   #113 
        - I agree JDP. It may be a social construct but that construct has  CBR   Mar-19-10 07:58 PM   #114 
           - Well...all social constructs do that  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 08:01 PM   #115 
              - Exactly why when discussing things like the census we cannot ignore them. nt  CBR   Mar-19-10 09:09 PM   #122 
                 - I do.  HeresyLives   Mar-19-10 09:14 PM   #124 
  - "Race" has no more place in science than does "The Invisible Hand."  Ignis   Mar-19-10 07:24 PM   #110 
  - No, the invisible hand is meaningful  Kurt_and_Hunter   Mar-19-10 08:43 PM   #119 
     - Not the best example, I'll admit. It has a useful role in economics.  Ignis   Mar-19-10 09:08 PM   #121 
  - Read this book ...  RoyGBiv   Mar-19-10 08:11 PM   #116 
  - Race both exists and doesn't exist  Kurt_and_Hunter   Mar-19-10 08:31 PM   #117 
  - Race is a social construct; here are some readings/resources you may find helpful..  moc   Mar-19-10 08:55 PM   #120 
  - Thanks! Perfect!  Taverner   Mar-21-10 12:43 PM   #129 
  - Tell that to NASCAR.  deaniac21   Mar-19-10 09:24 PM   #126 
     - A Google search agrees with you.  Ignis   Mar-19-10 09:31 PM   #127 
        - There you go.  deaniac21   Mar-19-10 09:35 PM   #128 

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