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Reply #112: Well, isn't he? [View All]

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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-29-07 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #109
112. Well, isn't he?
Hey buddy, you have got to stop drinking the kool-aid. Forbes ideas don't work and there is plenty of recent historical evidence for it. The guy, whose name starts with an "F", that you ought to be listening to is Henry Ford, founder of Ford Motor Company, who said that he wanted to make an automobile that his auto workers could afford to buy.

Inherent in that statement is what makes real economic growth. If the lowest paid worker has enough money from his labor at the end of the day to meet his needs and has some left over to spend and to put away for an emergency or his retirement, then everyone benefits. The more money the common worker spends, the better businesses whom he is buying from do. That translates into better profits, which are reflected in the stock market.

Now when people are unemployed or living from hand to mouth, corporations have to rely on corporate welfare and deregulation from the government for this so-called "competitive market" as well as the myriad of tax loopholes. This is what Forbes advocates. These ideas, based on Milton Friedman's economics have been proven to not work by the economies who have tried all or part of them.

The most prosperous era of our country was post World War II when FDR's socialist type programs were implemented enabling the ordinary factory worker to own a home, a car, have health care and a decent retirement waiting for him when the time came. In no way were the rich being forced to do without. We had a prosperous middle class then too. Conservative economics have ruined all that in the last thirty years. I can remember a time when there were no homeless in the streets. Even the poor had shelter due to enlightened social programs. Now we are becoming like Dicken's England. Too bad.
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  -I can't believe I'm seeing flat tax supporters on DU. The mind boggles jpgray  Apr-28-07 07:20 PM   #0 
  - Thank you thank you!  Donnachaidh   Apr-28-07 07:23 PM   #1 
  - Stunning, isn't it? Yet entire corporations can be bought and sold without a sales tax.  TahitiNut   Apr-28-07 07:34 PM   #2 
  - It's an investor's paradise. Worth about three hundred NAFTAs of salivation time  jpgray   Apr-28-07 07:52 PM   #9 
  - Welcome to Ronny RayGun n/t  northofdenali   Apr-29-07 07:52 PM   #116 
  - The capital-gains tax on "selling your own home" was phased out by 2003  TheBorealAvenger   Apr-29-07 06:38 AM   #59 
  - Under a $250,000 ($500,000 for a couple) lifetime limit, yes ...  TahitiNut   Apr-29-07 10:51 AM   #67 
  - Underground Economy To The Rescue!  Jelybe903   Apr-29-07 05:56 PM   #100 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-29-07 07:54 PM   #117 
  - So, you'd have government benefit from criminal activity? Fascinating.  TahitiNut   Apr-30-07 12:05 PM   #151 
     - A little Nip...A little Tuck...And presto it fits!  Jelybe903   Apr-30-07 08:53 PM   #194 
        - FIrst off ..  TahitiNut   Apr-30-07 09:37 PM   #202 
           - Some apologies  Jelybe903   Apr-30-07 10:30 PM   #207 
              - The sales tax on "food" is far more complicated.  TahitiNut   Apr-30-07 10:43 PM   #209 
  - Tahiti - you fucking rock.  northofdenali   Apr-29-07 07:51 PM   #115 
  - Sales tax on houses?  murloc   Apr-30-07 01:38 PM   #162 
  - It's worse than that, GAO report from 2004: 61% of U.S. corporations pay ****ZERO**** taxes.  Exiled in America   Apr-30-07 09:15 PM   #197 
  - Anyone who supports this nutty idea of Steve Forbes....  terrya   Apr-28-07 07:35 PM   #3 
  - I don't see why people can't like Gravel for his statements on Iraq, etc.  jpgray   Apr-28-07 07:39 PM   #5 
  - As has been said, there's a reason why the likes of Steve Forbes supports the flat tax.  terrya   Apr-28-07 07:42 PM   #6 
  - The rich won't be happy until they pay NO TAXES. After all, taxes are only for the "little people"  Blue State Native   Apr-30-07 01:44 PM   #164 
  - I totally agree n/t  papau   Apr-28-07 10:13 PM   #52 
  - I Support The Flat Tax  Possumpoint   Apr-28-07 08:05 PM   #12 
  - Think what you like. I just don't support throwing the New Deal, the poor or the elderly under a bus  jpgray   Apr-28-07 08:07 PM   #13 
  - Flat tax is not equal.  donco6   Apr-28-07 08:10 PM   #15 
  - I ask because I'm ignorant  OlderButWiser   Apr-28-07 08:26 PM   #23 
  - $1,000 knocked off of a $10,000 income means that something  Lars39   Apr-28-07 08:31 PM   #24 
  - Why are we trying to make the rich poorer  minavasht   Apr-29-07 03:21 PM   #73 
     - the rich wont get poorer, they will just be slightly less rich  TheBaldyMan   Apr-29-07 03:55 PM   #75 
     - fair is a relative term. The doctor had the advantage  bbgrunt   Apr-29-07 05:04 PM   #84 
     - I WAS born in Eastern Europe  minavasht   Apr-29-07 08:38 PM   #124 
        - You really don't get it, do you?  Lydia Leftcoast   Apr-30-07 11:49 AM   #148 
        - And that's why communism is long gone  minavasht   Apr-30-07 01:40 PM   #163 
           - I'm going to give you a free clue that you will not like  nadinbrzezinski   Apr-30-07 02:28 PM   #176 
        - Right....jeez  Madspirit   Apr-30-07 12:18 PM   #153 
        - An Ryand has nothing on this guy hjuh?  nadinbrzezinski   Apr-30-07 02:30 PM   #177 
        - That's definitely not true.  DireStrike   Apr-30-07 02:22 PM   #174 
     - As William Munny said...  ZombyWoof   Apr-29-07 09:42 PM   #135 
     - Indeed, Mr.Woof, It Does Not  The Magistrate   Apr-29-07 09:56 PM   #138 
     - We're not talking about Doctors here  DireStrike   Apr-30-07 02:17 PM   #172 
     - Yes, I do.  minavasht   Apr-30-07 02:32 PM   #178 
        - Hmm so you are going to hire your own police force?  nadinbrzezinski   Apr-30-07 02:36 PM   #179 
        - WHO is talking about NOT paying taxes?????  minavasht   Apr-30-07 02:50 PM   #181 
           - Because you are not aware of how the commons works  nadinbrzezinski   Apr-30-07 02:57 PM   #184 
              - Do you have an example were flat tax  minavasht   Apr-30-07 03:32 PM   #189 
                 - After the VAT was introduced in Mexico it didn't do too well  nadinbrzezinski   Apr-30-07 05:17 PM   #190 
                    - And Mexico was doing OK .... when?  minavasht   Apr-30-07 08:46 PM   #193 
                       - Ah you are very familiar with Mexican History I see  nadinbrzezinski   Apr-30-07 11:55 PM   #211 
        - The ultra rich do not do anything to make the money  conscious evolution   Apr-30-07 09:11 PM   #196 
        - Good point  minavasht   Apr-30-07 09:30 PM   #201 
           - Sam had a vision all right  conscious evolution   Apr-30-07 09:42 PM   #203 
           - Vision? lol!  DireStrike   May-01-07 11:38 AM   #213 
        - Some of it, yes  DireStrike   May-01-07 11:41 AM   #214 
     - Ok, minavasht, you need to read this data (provided) and then SHUT THE HELL UP.  Exiled in America   Apr-30-07 10:00 PM   #205 
        - I had time just for the first one  minavasht   May-01-07 12:11 PM   #215 
  - And what poor person can survive on $9,000?  donco6   Apr-28-07 08:32 PM   #25 
  - I can't believe this is such a hard concept for some  GirlinContempt   Apr-30-07 10:25 PM   #206 
  - It is easier for the guy making a million to pay 30% than  liberal N proud   Apr-28-07 08:47 PM   #27 
  - Why is the guy making $9,000?  minavasht   Apr-29-07 08:52 PM   #126 
     - Tired, cliched right-wing talking point you have there  ZombyWoof   Apr-30-07 07:42 AM   #141 
     - Another one from Florida? Just what goes on down there?  greyhound1966   Apr-30-07 07:56 AM   #142 
     - Whoa! Slow down!  minavasht   Apr-30-07 09:15 AM   #144 
        - Something wrong with this picture  Lydia Leftcoast   Apr-30-07 11:51 AM   #149 
        - A '93 escort and a '94 concorde  minavasht   Apr-30-07 01:33 PM   #160 
        - Probably  Madspirit   Apr-30-07 12:24 PM   #156 
        - Hm. Talk is cheap.  minavasht   Apr-30-07 01:25 PM   #159 
           - Me?  Madspirit   Apr-30-07 02:51 PM   #182 
              - Do you look for a job with this attitude?  minavasht   Apr-30-07 08:29 PM   #192 
        - Among the most ignorant statements I've ever seen here.  Midlodemocrat   Apr-30-07 01:37 PM   #161 
           - Well, educate me, then!  minavasht   Apr-30-07 01:48 PM   #166 
              - I don't think I've ever been asked to educate someone  Midlodemocrat   Apr-30-07 01:55 PM   #168 
              - Yes, yes, and yes - to your questions.  minavasht   Apr-30-07 02:21 PM   #173 
                 - You are not paying resident fees in the state yet?  nadinbrzezinski   Apr-30-07 02:40 PM   #180 
                    - I didn't attend college  minavasht   Apr-30-07 08:25 PM   #191 
                       - Well your firends are getting financed by your and my taxes  nadinbrzezinski   Apr-30-07 11:59 PM   #212 
              - I absolutely cannot wait  Madspirit   Apr-30-07 02:53 PM   #183 
              - Who cares?  minavasht   Apr-30-07 08:57 PM   #195 
              - Jesus christ  GirlinContempt   Apr-30-07 10:39 PM   #208 
     - Holy fucking shit. That's the most assholish thing I've heard in at least a month.  Exiled in America   Apr-30-07 09:21 PM   #199 
  - Not the same percentage of disposable income.  jobycom   Apr-28-07 08:56 PM   #31 
  - there are at least 2 parts of an answer to your query.  bbgrunt   Apr-29-07 04:53 PM   #82 
     - Sooner or later  minavasht   Apr-29-07 08:54 PM   #127 
  - donco6, 10 % is.............. 10%.  northofdenali   Apr-29-07 08:05 PM   #120 
     - What percentage of your income goes to pay taxes?  FredMertz   Apr-30-07 10:28 AM   #145 
        - Well, this crazy state has no income tax at all -  northofdenali   Apr-30-07 09:57 PM   #204 
           - Thanks...  FredMertz   May-01-07 12:23 PM   #216 
  - I'd tell ya to your face.  Lars39   Apr-28-07 08:11 PM   #16 
  - Thankfully, It Isn't Up To You To Make Such Decisions.  OPERATIONMINDCRIME   Apr-28-07 09:09 PM   #37 
  - True. It's not like equal right to marriage...  Zhade   Apr-29-07 12:00 AM   #54 
  - Agreed.  OPERATIONMINDCRIME   Apr-29-07 12:05 AM   #55 
  - Yes, gay-bashing is [100% rightly] not tolerated here, but poor-bashing is fine.  Dutch   Apr-29-07 06:59 AM   #63 
     - "but poor-bashing is fine."... and done routinely.  Sapphire Blue   Apr-29-07 04:25 PM   #77 
     - THANK YOU. I'm so glad someone wrote that.  Exiled in America   May-01-07 04:02 PM   #218 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-29-07 02:06 PM   #68 
     - Of Course. Since Differing Opinions Cause You Such Grief I'd Expect Such A Reponse From You.  OPERATIONMINDCRIME   Apr-29-07 04:45 PM   #81 
        - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Apr-29-07 06:01 PM   #101 
  - This is a Democratic board. Conservative, moderate, progressive, liberal Democratic board.  LittleClarkie   Apr-29-07 05:51 PM   #96 
  - You may belong, but that doesn't mean your idea does.  jobycom   Apr-28-07 09:00 PM   #33 
  - Why does using a tax system to benefit the poor suck?  hfojvt   Apr-28-07 09:26 PM   #49 
  - Why shouldn't those who benefit more from the society pay more to support the society?  struggle4progress   Apr-28-07 09:32 PM   #51 
  - This is why it's a stupid idea:  HughBeaumont   Apr-29-07 08:05 AM   #65 
  - Whats equal about a family on $15k p.a. and a Brazillionaire both paying a flat rate?  TheBaldyMan   Apr-29-07 03:47 PM   #74 
  - I will.  Madspirit   Apr-30-07 12:11 PM   #152 
  - The problem with the tax Forbes proposed was not that it was a flat tax, but rather that it included  greyhound1966   Apr-29-07 04:37 PM   #79 
  - Oh bullshit, terrya - everyone who supports true democracy belongs here.  northofdenali   Apr-29-07 07:58 PM   #118 
  - accck. You've got that right!  lonestarnot   Apr-29-07 10:01 PM   #139 
  - Thank you!  magellan   Apr-28-07 07:39 PM   #4 
  - exactly. sales tax sounds great to them because EVERYTHING ELSE isn't taxed  unblock   Apr-28-07 07:51 PM   #7 
  - but we can make it up to those who lose (the middle class, the working class, the poor)  leftofthedial   Apr-28-07 07:51 PM   #8 
  - There are still NAFTA supporters on DU.  Elwood P Dowd   Apr-28-07 08:01 PM   #10 
  - must be fun  iamthebandfanman   May-01-07 12:24 PM   #217 
  - That's why I cannot ever support Mike Gravel. He supports this.  Alexander   Apr-28-07 08:02 PM   #11 
  - I always found that inexplicable  deadmessengers   Apr-28-07 09:23 PM   #48 
  - here's my nutty idea to counter their nutty idea: a WEALTH tax  unblock   Apr-28-07 08:07 PM   #14 
  - A tax on hoarding . . . interesting.  donco6   Apr-28-07 08:11 PM   #17 
  - well you always have transition issues when switching from one scheme to another  unblock   Apr-28-07 08:17 PM   #21 
  - I think sci-fi author RH Hienlien had some ideas along this line.  conscious evolution   Apr-30-07 09:21 PM   #198 
  - The Wealth Tax. Now there is a plan!  Opposite Reaction   Apr-28-07 09:29 PM   #50 
  - the slippery bastards will discover a permanent state of transaction  TheBaldyMan   Apr-29-07 04:03 PM   #76 
  - wonderful thought unblock. We could become a national potlatch economy.  bbgrunt   Apr-29-07 05:12 PM   #86 
  - We have a sales tax in Canada  lynyrd_skynyrd   Apr-28-07 08:12 PM   #18 
  - Flat tax means getting RID of the income tax  frazzled   Apr-28-07 08:50 PM   #29 
  - We have a sales tax here too, you know  hfojvt   Apr-28-07 09:19 PM   #47 
  - I could get behind a "flat tax"  SoCalDem   Apr-28-07 08:15 PM   #19 
  - Alcohol is already taxed out the wazoo  deadmessengers   Apr-28-07 08:55 PM   #30 
  - As a smoker, I would favor higher taxes on booze  SoCalDem   Apr-28-07 09:12 PM   #41 
     - As an advocate for significant tax reform, I oppose sin taxes of any kind  Solo_in_MD   Apr-28-07 09:17 PM   #44 
  - Amen, Amen, Amen, SCD -  northofdenali   Apr-29-07 07:39 PM   #111 
  - I remember...  boot@9   Apr-29-07 09:36 PM   #132 
  - THANK YOU... and a very well deserved K&R!  Sapphire Blue   Apr-28-07 08:16 PM   #20 
  - kick  Sapphire Blue   Apr-29-07 10:49 AM   #66 
  - First fix how spending is controlled then we'll worry about taxes  noahmijo   Apr-28-07 08:19 PM   #22 
  - K&R  SarahBelle   Apr-28-07 08:42 PM   #26 
  - Fuckin idiotic, isn't it? lol!  BlooInBloo   Apr-28-07 08:50 PM   #28 
  - We've got a lot of different ideas here and I won't discount any  tech3149   Apr-28-07 08:57 PM   #32 
  - The type of flat tax system matters to me.  Theduckno2   Apr-28-07 11:29 PM   #53 
  - Something has to be be done, and simple structured approaches are popular  Solo_in_MD   Apr-28-07 09:02 PM   #34 
  - I think it's clear our current tax system doesn't work based on the rich-poor gap alone  jpgray   Apr-28-07 09:09 PM   #36 
  - It much worse than the rich/poor gap and so complex that it can not be understood by ordinary people  Solo_in_MD   Apr-28-07 09:16 PM   #42 
  - I'd agree with you solo, if before we knocked our current  bbgrunt   Apr-29-07 05:22 PM   #89 
  - Yep.  nicknameless   Apr-28-07 09:04 PM   #35 
  - Want a flat tax? here's one I could get behind  deadmessengers   Apr-28-07 09:10 PM   #38 
  - Exactly. The big political power centers in this country are death on investment/corporate taxes  jpgray   Apr-28-07 09:11 PM   #40 
  - Hmmm.  jaredh   Apr-29-07 12:08 AM   #56 
  - Some folks are enamored by tough-talking, crusty old farts.  Blue-Jay   Apr-28-07 09:11 PM   #39 
  - It ain't me. It ain't me.  hfojvt   Apr-28-07 09:17 PM   #43 
  - It doesn't take someone who is one letter removed from your username, does it?  jpgray   Apr-28-07 09:17 PM   #46 
  - Join the 'Billionaires for Bush Club'  struggle4progress   Apr-28-07 09:17 PM   #45 
  - The old hippy slogan was "Eat The Rich!"  baldguy   Apr-29-07 12:14 AM   #57 
  - Amen n/t  gwbsamoron   Apr-29-07 12:47 AM   #58 
  - I can't believe i am seeing people who see people on DU  LibFromWV   Apr-29-07 06:49 AM   #60 
  - Same here. Further proof that a some so-called 'progressives' stopped giving a f*ck about the poor  Dutch   Apr-29-07 06:54 AM   #61 
  - Why is it surprising? There's people on here who support job offshoring.  HughBeaumont   Apr-29-07 06:58 AM   #62 
  - how about a flat tax that exempts the first 50K...?  QuestionAll   Apr-29-07 07:39 AM   #64 
  - Of course. Anyone who thinks 10% from $100 week has the same effect on a worker as 10% from  WinkyDink   Apr-29-07 02:12 PM   #69 
  - I repeat (from another thread): ANY TAX that takes ONE MORE DIME from the poor than now, is  WinkyDink   Apr-29-07 02:16 PM   #70 
  - A truly regressive tax system  Lone_Star_Dem   Apr-29-07 02:24 PM   #71 
  - jpgray, I hate to tell you this, but...  jmowreader   Apr-29-07 03:00 PM   #72 
  - I know that. I refuse to use the term "fair tax," as a one-rate sales tax is, in essence, flat  jpgray   Apr-29-07 04:57 PM   #83 
     - Come up with a new term for it, then  jmowreader   Apr-29-07 06:09 PM   #103 
  - A flat task is a right-wing economic idea, that would be disastrous for poorer people  LeftishBrit   Apr-29-07 04:32 PM   #78 
  - well said, jpgray. This whole sales job smells of the same rhetoric as the "death tax" propagana  bbgrunt   Apr-29-07 04:38 PM   #80 
  - This is the same reason I don't support the national sales tax  Cleita   Apr-29-07 05:08 PM   #85 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-29-07 05:20 PM   #88 
     - No, because low/middle income people would still spend a higher percentage of income on taxed goods  jpgray   Apr-29-07 05:22 PM   #90 
     - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-29-07 05:30 PM   #92 
        - It still wouldn't tax all the income of the rich as much of that  Cleita   Apr-29-07 05:52 PM   #98 
           - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-29-07 06:07 PM   #102 
              - Steve Forbes is an idiot.  Cleita   Apr-29-07 06:33 PM   #106 
                 - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-29-07 07:21 PM   #109 
                    - Well, isn't he?  Cleita   Apr-29-07 07:42 PM   #112 
     - A credit could be done on the income tax as well, however,  Cleita   Apr-29-07 05:48 PM   #94 
     - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-29-07 06:13 PM   #104 
        - Yes, and in theory we both want the same thing, however,  Cleita   Apr-29-07 06:32 PM   #105 
           - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-29-07 07:05 PM   #108 
              - Yes, the Scandanavian countries pay more taxes than we do  Cleita   Apr-29-07 08:03 PM   #119 
              - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-29-07 08:34 PM   #123 
                 - Thank you for the link.  Cleita   Apr-29-07 09:35 PM   #131 
              - The poor aren't taxed? That is false.  seasat   Apr-29-07 09:00 PM   #128 
                 - Yes, everything you say is true.  Cleita   Apr-29-07 09:36 PM   #133 
     - How would it be fairer? The rich would pay less than they do now, which is very little.  Matsubara   Apr-29-07 09:19 PM   #130 
        - And much MORE!  Cleita   Apr-29-07 09:38 PM   #134 
           - The amazing thing to me is this...  Matsubara   Apr-29-07 09:46 PM   #136 
  - Ignorance of economics- That's the bottom line.  depakid   Apr-29-07 05:17 PM   #87 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-29-07 05:23 PM   #91 
  - How do you figure that?  depakid   Apr-29-07 05:52 PM   #97 
     - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-29-07 06:39 PM   #107 
        - Then you shift the burden to middle classes.  seasat   Apr-29-07 09:49 PM   #137 
  - but of course, depakid, that "principle" is only an assumption  bbgrunt   Apr-29-07 05:31 PM   #93 
  - "I can't believe I'm seeing someone disagree with me on a discussion board"  LittleClarkie   Apr-29-07 05:50 PM   #95 
  - LOL!  Cleita   Apr-29-07 05:53 PM   #99 
  - Shit. I'll get flamed.  northofdenali   Apr-29-07 07:36 PM   #110 
  - This is the best idea I've seen in this thread  Chovexani   Apr-29-07 07:46 PM   #113 
  - Not to mention his toupee's and  northofdenali   Apr-29-07 07:49 PM   #114 
  - Funny enough Jerry Brown said something similar when  Cleita   Apr-29-07 08:05 PM   #121 
  - There is absolutely no reason one can't elimate loopholes and credits  Telly Savalas   Apr-29-07 08:42 PM   #125 
     - Exactly, we can simply the current system.  seasat   Apr-29-07 10:03 PM   #140 
  - As I've said for decades - let me deduct everything a corporation can deduct.  TahitiNut   Apr-30-07 12:21 PM   #155 
     - Tell me about it  nadinbrzezinski   Apr-30-07 03:15 PM   #188 
  - They must be from the upper 15% of the income distribution...  entanglement   Apr-29-07 08:06 PM   #122 
  - Yep, pro-occupation of Iraq threads too.  Matsubara   Apr-29-07 09:14 PM   #129 
  - There was never a $10 million bracket  NewYorkerfromMass   Apr-30-07 10:31 AM   #146 
  - The more I think about it, the less I think the sales tax idea would work  gollygee   Apr-30-07 08:06 AM   #143 
  - There are even assholes who support the draft on DU  Lilith Velkor   Apr-30-07 11:45 AM   #147 
  - How can you be a Democrat & pro-flat tax?  Marie26   Apr-30-07 11:51 AM   #150 
  - That's what I think Marie26  Madspirit   Apr-30-07 12:34 PM   #158 
  - I tried,,,  Madspirit   Apr-30-07 12:19 PM   #154 
  - After this thread, I'm even more shocked.  donco6   Apr-30-07 12:27 PM   #157 
     - People truly do not know how it works  nadinbrzezinski   Apr-30-07 03:07 PM   #187 
  - I don't understand WHY rich people fight progressive taxation so much.  Evoman   Apr-30-07 01:44 PM   #165 
  - Like a certain person upthread, they think that poor people deserve  Lydia Leftcoast   Apr-30-07 01:58 PM   #169 
     - I say we kill all the rich people and eat their hearts.  Evoman   Apr-30-07 02:11 PM   #170 
        - They have hearts?  Sapphire Blue   Apr-30-07 02:22 PM   #175 
           - Jesus.  Lurking Dem   Apr-30-07 09:22 PM   #200 
  - Look the government cannot run on a 10% flat tax. It will have to be something like 25%  Sapere aude   Apr-30-07 01:50 PM   #167 
  - Because most people  nadinbrzezinski   Apr-30-07 02:17 PM   #171 
  - I propose a 40% flat tax  NewYorkerfromMass   Apr-30-07 02:57 PM   #185 
     - Regresive  nadinbrzezinski   Apr-30-07 03:03 PM   #186 
  - Well we just had the VT thing in the news  camero   Apr-30-07 11:52 PM   #210 
 

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