| 6. Sure is but In Maryland they make that much and In PA as well. |
|
My highest salary was 35k with a Masters.
|
| -Central Falls to fire every high school teacher |
FarCenter |
Feb-15-10 02:47 PM |
#0 |
 -
"The teachers at the high school make $70,000-$78,000," i call bullshit. |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 02:50 PM |
#1 |
 -
The same salary range is quoted in other stories, -- e.g. in the Providence Journal |
FarCenter |
Feb-15-10 02:55 PM |
#3 |
| -
Deleted message |
Name removed |
Feb-15-10 03:07 PM |
#10 |
 -
I call bullshit on that, too. |
tonysam |
Feb-15-10 05:10 PM |
#65 |
| -
Actually, some teachers do make that much |
leftofcool |
Feb-15-10 02:58 PM |
#5 |
| -
"some" is not "average". |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 03:08 PM |
#11 |
| -
The highest paid teachers are on the east coast |
leftofcool |
Feb-15-10 03:24 PM |
#14 |
| -
Deleted message |
Name removed |
Feb-15-10 03:26 PM |
#18 |
| -
I am assuming you have been paid a teachers salary |
leftofcool |
Feb-15-10 03:37 PM |
#28 |
| -
I've never worked in the public schools, & what teachers make "all over the US" is irrelevant to the |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 03:43 PM |
#31 |
| -
I have a friend who still teaches in RI |
leftofcool |
Feb-15-10 03:46 PM |
#34 |
| -
I don't give a rip what your friend's salary is. One person's salary isn't the "average". |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 03:49 PM |
#36 |
| -
A real teacher can call bullshit on this 70k-100k shit |
tonysam |
Feb-15-10 05:15 PM |
#69 |
| -
Not really. There is lots of nepotism in those districts. |
tonysam |
Feb-15-10 05:13 PM |
#68 |
| -
Teachers in my area |
H2O Man |
Feb-15-10 05:50 PM |
#90 |
| -
I've been teaching for a couple of decades, |
LWolf |
Feb-15-10 04:32 PM |
#53 |
| -
No, they don't. |
tonysam |
Feb-15-10 05:12 PM |
#67 |
| -
A quick query of Providence public teachers market value at salary.com doesn't bear that out |
lukasahero |
Feb-15-10 07:02 PM |
#120 |
| -
which isn't that much in many areas in MD |
shugah |
Feb-15-10 10:14 PM |
#157 |
| -
Ditto.n/t |
kickysnana |
Feb-15-10 03:01 PM |
#7 |
| -
Gawd forbid anyone make a comfortable living TEACHING. |
gmoney |
Feb-15-10 02:51 PM |
#2 |
| -
Holy crap! 78K per year. Is that a lot where those teachers are? |
Tim01 |
Feb-15-10 02:58 PM |
#4 |
| -
Sure is but In Maryland they make that much and In PA as well. |
leftofcool |
Feb-15-10 02:59 PM |
#6 |
| -
Yes. As a rule, public school teachers in PA are exceptionally well-paid, and teaching |
Bunny |
Feb-15-10 05:28 PM |
#78 |
| -
this is what you call "exceptional"? |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 05:38 PM |
#83 |
| -
I know that most teachers in Oregon and California get nothing close to that much money. |
Quantess |
Feb-15-10 03:03 PM |
#8 |
| -
My DH is an 18 veteran teacher in Calif. He makes just over $50K... |
ourbluenation |
Feb-15-10 04:33 PM |
#54 |
| -
Deleted message |
Name removed |
Feb-15-10 03:11 PM |
#12 |
| -
no stats for 2008-2009? |
leftofcool |
Feb-15-10 03:25 PM |
#16 |
| -
the stats i posted show that only the *top* salaries even *approached* $72K in 2007. |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 03:28 PM |
#21 |
| -
Actually, do you have any evidence that teachers salaries are affected by the recession |
FarCenter |
Feb-15-10 03:33 PM |
#25 |
| -
Correct! |
leftofcool |
Feb-15-10 03:37 PM |
#27 |
| -
Incorrect! |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 03:44 PM |
#32 |
| -
I do. But I'd ask you the same: do you have any evidence that since 2007 teachers' salaries have |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 03:41 PM |
#30 |
| -
East Providence does not equal Central Falls |
leftofcool |
Feb-15-10 03:51 PM |
#37 |
| -
Show me the evidence that Central Falls pays significantly higher. |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 04:02 PM |
#43 |
| -
It is possible |
leftofcool |
Feb-15-10 03:35 PM |
#26 |
| -
They took a pay freeze in 2009. & even without it, no way would they be anywhere |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 03:45 PM |
#33 |
| -
Yep, pay freeze for East Providence |
leftofcool |
Feb-15-10 03:54 PM |
#38 |
| -
Show me the proof that Central Falls teachers get paid significantly higher salaries |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 04:01 PM |
#42 |
| -
Average PA teacher's salary in 2002-2003 was $51,425 dollars. |
woo me with science |
Feb-15-10 06:46 PM |
#117 |
| -
Central Falls, RI is not in Providence, RI |
FarCenter |
Feb-15-10 03:39 PM |
#29 |
| -
They're less than three years "out of date" & Providence teachers took a pay freeze in 2009. |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 03:48 PM |
#35 |
| -
Central Falls salaries aren't going to be wildly out of synch with Providence's. |
leftofcool |
Feb-15-10 03:55 PM |
#39 |
| -
let's turn it around & ask how you know they *are*? |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 04:14 PM |
#46 |
| -
Yes, real estate prices in RI are very depressed. It's hurting since textile mills off-shored |
KittyWampus |
Feb-15-10 03:28 PM |
#20 |
| -
they make $70,000-$78,000 ... |
mzteris |
Feb-15-10 03:03 PM |
#9 |
| -
Deleted message |
Name removed |
Feb-15-10 03:12 PM |
#13 |
| -
gallo = charter shill |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 05:43 PM |
#85 |
| -
Gallo on charter schools: |
noamnety |
Feb-15-10 07:59 PM |
#130 |
| -
She's impressed by catholic schools, too. in fact, she & her husband the deacon donate to them. |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 08:42 PM |
#141 |
| -
If they are making the salary the system claims, it would seem fair |
EmeraldCityGrl |
Feb-15-10 03:24 PM |
#15 |
| -
They're not. |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 03:26 PM |
#17 |
| -
OK... a third of this thread is now you posting these numbers |
SallyMander |
Feb-15-10 03:28 PM |
#19 |
| -
the other two-thirds, however, is *you guys* saying omg! $72-$78K! they should take concessions! |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 03:29 PM |
#22 |
| -
Do you have more current figures? These are three years old. |
EmeraldCityGrl |
Feb-15-10 03:57 PM |
#40 |
| -
here ya go... & from the horses mouth . . . |
mzteris |
Feb-15-10 09:42 PM |
#152 |
| -
No one's arguing with it; I posted it before you did. It just doesn't show "average" |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 10:20 PM |
#160 |
| -
Thanks mzteris:) $43,486-$73,680 |
EmeraldCityGrl |
Feb-15-10 11:01 PM |
#170 |
| -
top pay 2009-2010 = $71.8. You're mixing three years. |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 11:44 PM |
#181 |
| -
They love repeating neocon propaganda. |
Jakes Progress |
Feb-15-10 05:48 PM |
#86 |
| -
because they're invested in charter franchises? |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 05:49 PM |
#88 |
| -
Or just not bright. nt |
Jakes Progress |
Feb-15-10 05:54 PM |
#92 |
| -
i believe they're at least ordinarily bright. they just like charters. |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 07:12 PM |
#122 |
| -
It's not as though she's just randomly posting those numbers |
fishwax |
Feb-15-10 03:58 PM |
#41 |
| -
I know -- i am having a curmudgeon day |
SallyMander |
Feb-15-10 04:48 PM |
#58 |
| -
I saw the same thing over & over: "OMG!!! $78K!!!!????" |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 04:56 PM |
#60 |
| -
no worries, they've been deleted, apparently too incendiary for du. |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 07:10 PM |
#121 |
| -
If people did there would be no need to repost. |
Raineyb |
Feb-15-10 05:20 PM |
#71 |
| -
How is 70 to 78 K in 2009-2010 that different from 67 to 70 K in 2006-2007? |
FarCenter |
Feb-15-10 04:05 PM |
#44 |
| -
a "suburban" school? central falls is a *poor* district. 30% of the population is below the |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 04:16 PM |
#47 |
| -
The top step is $71K 2009-2010. Not $78K. "Most" can be 51% or 99%. It's meaningless |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 10:38 PM |
#164 |
| -
The article isn't claiming they made that in 2006. |
noamnety |
Feb-15-10 04:21 PM |
#48 |
| -
just like the erroneous figures on autoworkers' wages were corrected in the media. NOT. |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 04:29 PM |
#52 |
| -
Maybe that $70-78k includes overhead? |
HiFructosePronSyrup |
Feb-15-10 03:32 PM |
#23 |
| -
maybe it includes bennies. but that's not how most people will read it. they'll read it as |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 03:33 PM |
#24 |
| -
It's ALWAYS including benefits, which people don't live on |
tonysam |
Feb-15-10 05:22 PM |
#73 |
| -
That was my first thought, but after more research, I'm not sure. |
noamnety |
Feb-15-10 04:07 PM |
#45 |
| -
2006-2007 is, by my figuring, 3 years ago, not four. |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 04:27 PM |
#50 |
| -
It's a total of 4 school years, there would be three salary jumps as I documented. |
noamnety |
Feb-15-10 04:44 PM |
#57 |
| -
I don't care about the teabagger's explanation. There's nothing in his LINK to support it. |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 04:58 PM |
#61 |
| -
It appears that Central Falls school district has been taken over by the state |
FarCenter |
Feb-15-10 04:39 PM |
#56 |
| -
Cental Falls' co-pay is 9-15%, as you can see in the link in your article: |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 04:51 PM |
#59 |
| -
As it said in The Providence Journal article, most of the teachers are at the top step |
FarCenter |
Feb-15-10 05:05 PM |
#63 |
| -
The only way they would "average" $78K is if EVERY teacher was at the top step |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 05:21 PM |
#72 |
| -
Projo is a right-wing paper. It endorsed McCain in 2008. n/t |
tonysam |
Feb-15-10 05:23 PM |
#74 |
| -
Exactly. And there are probably many new teachers at that school, |
tonysam |
Feb-15-10 05:25 PM |
#76 |
| -
and you're basing this statement on - |
mzteris |
Feb-15-10 08:03 PM |
#131 |
| -
Teacher Indicators |
mzteris |
Feb-15-10 08:44 PM |
#142 |
| -
Which leaves 83% of CF teachers with somewhere between 1-24 years in. |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 09:03 PM |
#145 |
| -
the PROBLEM is - |
mzteris |
Feb-15-10 06:28 PM |
#111 |
| -
They might also be getting longevity pay. |
noamnety |
Feb-15-10 07:01 PM |
#119 |
| -
the "longevity pay" in woonsocket is $1850 - if you have over 30 years in. there must be *lots* |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 07:18 PM |
#124 |
| -
numbers & stuff... |
mzteris |
Feb-15-10 07:17 PM |
#123 |
| -
Thus documenting the misrepresentation in the OP: Step 10 + 33+ |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 07:32 PM |
#125 |
| -
Salaries are a little higher than that this year. |
noamnety |
Feb-15-10 09:18 PM |
#147 |
| -
doesn't really matter though, does it? |
mzteris |
Feb-15-10 09:39 PM |
#151 |
| -
Well, you never want to fire the union. We need those. |
noamnety |
Feb-15-10 10:05 PM |
#155 |
| -
and of course now |
mzteris |
Feb-15-10 10:22 PM |
#161 |
| -
lol. the debate hasn't "stalled out". your friends keep insisting average salary is $72-$78K, |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-16-10 12:23 AM |
#188 |
| -
Yes, I can see your support for teachers' unions. The facts are, teaching salaries start at $44K |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-16-10 12:07 AM |
#185 |
| -
it's random math. |
noamnety |
Feb-16-10 05:29 AM |
#191 |
| -
Yes, you're a veritable *font* of "facts". From charter school propaganda mills funded by walmart. |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 11:46 PM |
#182 |
| -
dammit - that "index" link wasn't working |
mzteris |
Feb-15-10 09:43 PM |
#153 |
| -
As a teachers wife I'm sick of this. Comparing teachers salaries to local pop as a means to |
ourbluenation |
Feb-15-10 04:24 PM |
#49 |
| -
+1000 |
GreenPartyVoter |
Feb-15-10 04:36 PM |
#55 |
| -
This is absolutely right |
mcar |
Feb-15-10 05:12 PM |
#66 |
| -
That is the strangest article I've ever read. |
Robb |
Feb-15-10 04:29 PM |
#51 |
| -
The QUESTION is not their Salary but should they put in the EXTRA time |
keep_it_real |
Feb-15-10 05:02 PM |
#62 |
| -
Someone paid that much, working in IT as a professional, would be expected to put in the time |
FarCenter |
Feb-15-10 05:08 PM |
#64 |
| -
They also get to work less in slack times "as a professional". Do teachers? |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 05:31 PM |
#79 |
| -
In "slack" time, an IT professional had better be learning new stuff |
FarCenter |
Feb-15-10 05:42 PM |
#84 |
| -
so do teachers. mandatory. |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 05:49 PM |
#87 |
| -
This is the kind of story that makes the unions look completely out of touch with reality.. |
DCBob |
Feb-15-10 05:15 PM |
#70 |
| -
This is the kind of post that makes people look like bloody ingrates. |
Raineyb |
Feb-15-10 05:24 PM |
#75 |
| -
In the private sector workers routinely do extra work for no compensation.. |
DCBob |
Feb-15-10 05:27 PM |
#77 |
| -
They are demanding a PERMANENT increase in hours worked, what don't you get? |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 05:34 PM |
#81 |
| -
Do teachers punch a timeclock? |
DCBob |
Feb-15-10 05:36 PM |
#82 |
| -
oh, no, they can come & go as they please. their students & principals would never notice. |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 05:51 PM |
#91 |
| -
It depends on the school culture and administration. |
noamnety |
Feb-15-10 06:02 PM |
#95 |
| -
do you pop in and out of your classes, too? |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 06:04 PM |
#98 |
| -
personal attack noted. (nt) |
noamnety |
Feb-15-10 06:28 PM |
#112 |
| -
i don't see any personal attack. my point is: teachers, unlike most "professionals," CANNOT |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 06:35 PM |
#114 |
| -
Thanks for schooling me on what it's like to be a teacher. |
noamnety |
Feb-15-10 06:38 PM |
#116 |
| -
you entered an ongoing conversation & seem determined to make it personal. |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 07:55 PM |
#129 |
| -
Only if they're a damn fool. Over the top? No right in line with what is normal. |
Raineyb |
Feb-15-10 08:04 PM |
#133 |
| -
They were offered compensation - $30 an hour. The union demanded $90 an hour. |
noamnety |
Feb-15-10 05:50 PM |
#89 |
| -
uh, no, they were not. super wants: |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 06:01 PM |
#94 |
| -
The Union is out of touch with their demands |
harkadog |
Feb-15-10 06:03 PM |
#97 |
| -
lol. transparent. "the evil u---nion!" |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 06:04 PM |
#99 |
| -
Not transparent at all |
harkadog |
Feb-15-10 06:08 PM |
#101 |
| -
oh, bull. the teachers are being asked to work 3 hours-plus extra every week. The $90 |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 06:12 PM |
#103 |
| -
So you think $90 a hour is a reasonable request? |
harkadog |
Feb-15-10 06:19 PM |
#108 |
| -
I think if they're not going to pay ANYTHING for the mandatoryextra 3-plus hours/week they're asking |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 06:23 PM |
#109 |
| -
Yes, they "ONLY" wanted $720 a day for training. Poor things. |
noamnety |
Feb-15-10 06:26 PM |
#110 |
| -
gee, perhaps it could have something to do with trying to get compensation for the 100-plus |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 06:33 PM |
#113 |
| -
Yes, I acknowledged it was a guesstimate on hours. |
noamnety |
Feb-15-10 06:37 PM |
#115 |
| -
For a summer training, you assume 8 hour days? The bigger point is the 3-5 added mandatory |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 07:36 PM |
#126 |
| -
I don't know where you're getting that from because |
Raineyb |
Feb-15-10 10:05 PM |
#156 |
| -
This here says a lot |
michreject |
Feb-15-10 06:13 PM |
#104 |
| -
"Reform plan" = working for free. How about if the superintendant cuts her own salary first. |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 06:15 PM |
#106 |
| -
BS n/t |
Swamp Rat |
Feb-15-10 05:31 PM |
#80 |
| -
Solidarity! |
MilesColtrane |
Feb-15-10 05:54 PM |
#93 |
| -
I'll believe that solidarity shit |
michreject |
Feb-15-10 06:16 PM |
#107 |
| -
Heh |
Mixopterus |
Feb-15-10 06:03 PM |
#96 |
| -
Oh, I think the folks who want teachers to work longer for less wouldn't take kindly to |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 06:06 PM |
#100 |
| -
But... |
Mixopterus |
Feb-15-10 06:10 PM |
#102 |
| -
:>) *typical neo-liberal bullshit talking points* |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 06:14 PM |
#105 |
| -
This sounds like a failure of leadership to me |
Generic Brad |
Feb-15-10 06:56 PM |
#118 |
| -
+1000 |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 07:41 PM |
#127 |
| -
more salary info: |
mzteris |
Feb-15-10 07:46 PM |
#128 |
| -
more bullshit. the up-to-date salary info for central falls is here: |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 08:03 PM |
#132 |
| -
I had one more heart to give, Hannah, and it's for you |
Ishoutandscream2 |
Feb-15-10 08:15 PM |
#134 |
| -
what's surprising is to see all the "Democrats" eating it up. |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 08:16 PM |
#136 |
| -
Dems sharing Republicans' anti-worker views |
Ishoutandscream2 |
Feb-15-10 08:22 PM |
#138 |
| -
Deleted sub-thread |
Name removed |
Feb-15-10 08:45 PM |
#143 |
| -
Thanks for finding the pay. That's from last year, FYI. |
noamnety |
Feb-15-10 09:02 PM |
#144 |
| -
No, it's not accurate, even if "most" teachers are at step 10 & have masters degrees + 45. |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 09:56 PM |
#154 |
| -
Even with your made up percentages, you still are only 1K short of the range. |
noamnety |
Feb-15-10 10:17 PM |
#159 |
| -
My "struggle" to stay within the range? Are you kidding? I put 80% of the |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 10:33 PM |
#163 |
| -
You put too many at Masters plus 45, and too many at step 1. |
noamnety |
Feb-15-10 10:49 PM |
#166 |
| -
1% have LESS THAN 1 year's experience. But do 80% have 10 years' plus MA + 45? |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 10:55 PM |
#168 |
| -
Is that good enough for you, or am i still "struggling"? |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 10:58 PM |
#169 |
| -
Yes, still struggling. Still using propaganda techniques as well. |
noamnety |
Feb-15-10 11:08 PM |
#172 |
| -
The MA + 45 adds $3450 to the basic step 10 compensation of $71,883. |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 11:29 PM |
#176 |
| -
Painful. An MA +45 doesn't add that much beyond what a straight masters adds. |
noamnety |
Feb-15-10 11:41 PM |
#179 |
| -
"random" scenarios? i guess it's best to just believe every flipping thing you read in the mccain- |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 11:50 PM |
#183 |
| -
Yes, it's random and the oddest statistical analysis I've ever seen. |
noamnety |
Feb-16-10 05:26 AM |
#190 |
| -
I acknowledged the top paid teacher made $95K, & included that in my calculations. |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-16-10 02:38 PM |
#192 |
| -
Gym teacher made $95,625.89 in 2006 |
mzteris |
Feb-15-10 10:52 PM |
#167 |
| -
Salary of $66,744 augmented by $28,000 of overage costs. Plus coaching. |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 11:02 PM |
#171 |
| -
I noticed that administrators salaries were included with the front line teachers. |
MilesColtrane |
Feb-15-10 11:09 PM |
#173 |
| -
lol. |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 11:42 PM |
#180 |
| -
Interesting reference, that "Business Insider" - it's full of attacks on unionized workers. seems |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 08:15 PM |
#135 |
| -
Get used to this.... |
sendero |
Feb-15-10 08:20 PM |
#137 |
| -
but we can "print money" for investment bankers. i wonder what the difference is? |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 08:37 PM |
#140 |
| -
No one is more.. |
sendero |
Feb-15-10 09:10 PM |
#146 |
| -
Teachers are UNDERPAID! |
DiverDave |
Feb-15-10 08:27 PM |
#139 |
| -
Hi DiverDave |
GiveMeFreedom |
Feb-15-10 09:32 PM |
#149 |
| -
When I questioned a superintendent's salary in another thread |
noamnety |
Feb-15-10 09:38 PM |
#150 |
| -
yes, i guess "Democrat" = supporting private charter school administators raking it in instead. |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 10:15 PM |
#158 |
| -
Ah, sorry, 345k. And that's with benefits, so he's probably just scraping by. |
noamnety |
Feb-15-10 10:43 PM |
#165 |
| -
some snippets |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 11:10 PM |
#174 |
| -
I've said several times I believe it's too much no matter if it's a 401k or a 403b. |
noamnety |
Feb-15-10 11:30 PM |
#177 |
| -
I completely agree. But as I've demonstrated & could continue to demonstrate, there are plenty of |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-15-10 11:55 PM |
#184 |
| -
It sure as hell wasn't from me. |
tonysam |
Feb-15-10 10:31 PM |
#162 |
| -
I see there are some higher salaries this year. |
noamnety |
Feb-15-10 11:24 PM |
#175 |
| -
Interesting site. Thanks for linking. n/t |
tonysam |
Feb-15-10 11:35 PM |
#178 |
| -
Too bad charter schools in NY don't have the same disclosure requirements. |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-16-10 12:16 AM |
#186 |
| -
If they're taking taxpayer money, they damned well should be transparent. n/t |
tonysam |
Feb-16-10 12:21 AM |
#187 |
| -
well, they're not. but their supporters don't much care. |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-16-10 12:25 AM |
#189 |
| -
Instead of forcing more work on people |
The Gunslinger |
Feb-15-10 09:28 PM |
#148 |
Printer-friendly format
Email this thread to a friend
Bookmark this thread
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore