muriel_volestrangler
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Sat Jan-16-10 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #2 |
| 21. Your 'math' is pretty meaningless |
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You assume you know how many people will vote in total before you work out who they'll vote for. Your claim that the 'majority of independents swing in favor of whichever side they think is "winning"' needs backing up with some proper research (purely anecdotally, I've never known anyone that dumb that they go to the bother of voting just for the internal feeling of "I voted for the winner").
If you want 'math', here's an alternative scenario, starting from your assumptions, but a little better based in the real world:
50% of the Democrats vote Democrat without further persuasion = 35 million 50% of the Republicans vote R without further persuasion = 30 million Democrats targetting Democrats gets another 20% of the remaining Ds to vote D = 7 million Republicans targetting Independents gets 20% of the Is to vote R = 14 million
Result: D = 35 + 7 = 42 million R = 30 + 14 = 44 million - winning.
Ignore the Independents, and you ignore the largest uncommitted group.
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| -It's time to put this myth to rest: Appealing to independents is the way to win elections. |
Laelth |
Jan-16-10 10:46 AM |
#0 |
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IF independents vote republican the dem loses |
stray cat |
Jan-16-10 10:51 AM |
#1 |
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That's not what the math above says. |
Laelth |
Jan-16-10 10:52 AM |
#2 |
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Your 'math' is pretty meaningless |
muriel_volestrangler |
Jan-16-10 11:39 AM |
#21 |
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I see what you're saying, even if you are rude about it. |
Laelth |
Jan-16-10 11:48 AM |
#24 |
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No, you'll notice my scenario had 60% Dems and 50% Republicans voting |
muriel_volestrangler |
Jan-16-10 11:56 AM |
#27 |
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You're right, of course, with those figures. |
Laelth |
Jan-16-10 01:19 PM |
#75 |
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What a stupid post. |
Odin2005 |
Jan-16-10 10:52 AM |
#3 |
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And your brilliance is equally remarkable, not to mention your charming personality. |
Laelth |
Jan-16-10 11:03 AM |
#4 |
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One of the first things one learns in college political science is that... |
Odin2005 |
Jan-16-10 11:07 AM |
#5 |
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I am familiar with the argument. |
Laelth |
Jan-16-10 11:16 AM |
#10 |
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Right. The goal then is to move the center to the left. |
anonymous171 |
Jan-16-10 11:17 AM |
#11 |
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You are correct in stating that the Republicans practice this tactic |
mikekohr |
Jan-16-10 12:06 PM |
#35 |
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I am assuming that this post is directed at me, and so I will respond. |
Laelth |
Jan-16-10 12:48 PM |
#67 |
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In your response we find common ground nt |
mikekohr |
Jan-17-10 09:35 AM |
#93 |
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And, I could buy into that if we had the same "bell" that we had several decades ago. |
Atticus |
Jan-17-10 02:48 PM |
#94 |
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I never said that we shouldn't try to move the bell to the Left. |
Odin2005 |
Jan-17-10 03:02 PM |
#96 |
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"Courting the center" has always been an excuse to pander to corporate interests |
DJ13 |
Jan-16-10 11:08 AM |
#6 |
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You nailed it. |
Individualist |
Jan-16-10 11:13 AM |
#8 |
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Ding ding ding. eom |
Hello_Kitty |
Jan-16-10 11:19 AM |
#12 |
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to win you have to get most of the voters |
treestar |
Jan-16-10 12:19 PM |
#49 |
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Here's how Jefferson defined the party's base: |
Laelth |
Jan-16-10 06:30 PM |
#92 |
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Well said. n/t |
Laelth |
Jan-16-10 02:42 PM |
#81 |
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If you want to win one election and then lose three, you are right |
Motown_Johnny |
Jan-16-10 11:11 AM |
#7 |
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What? I'm pretty sure Rove's strategies won two national elections for the GOP. |
anonymous171 |
Jan-16-10 11:15 AM |
#9 |
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With the help of election fraud using electronic voting machines and |
RC |
Jan-16-10 11:38 AM |
#20 |
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So? He won, we lost. In domestic politics, the ends justify the means. nt |
anonymous171 |
Jan-16-10 11:41 AM |
#22 |
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Does "Nation of Laws..." mean anything to you? |
RC |
Jan-16-10 12:13 PM |
#44 |
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I'm tired of liberals playing the political martyr. |
anonymous171 |
Jan-16-10 12:40 PM |
#65 |
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and we now have 60 Senators (kinda) and a huge majority in The House |
Motown_Johnny |
Jan-16-10 11:53 AM |
#26 |
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Backlash that was generated by Bush's wars and the economy |
anonymous171 |
Jan-16-10 11:56 AM |
#30 |
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It is impossible to create a permanent majority of leftists, you need moderates |
Motown_Johnny |
Jan-16-10 12:03 PM |
#33 |
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Actually I agree with you. |
anonymous171 |
Jan-16-10 12:11 PM |
#40 |
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nothing wrong with it, you just can't aim all your guns in one direction when you are surrounded |
Motown_Johnny |
Jan-16-10 12:20 PM |
#50 |
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There are ways to keep the moderates and the libs happy |
anonymous171 |
Jan-16-10 12:26 PM |
#56 |
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Sorry, but you fail. eom |
Hello_Kitty |
Jan-16-10 11:22 AM |
#13 |
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any explanation for that comment? |
Motown_Johnny |
Jan-16-10 11:47 AM |
#23 |
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Define what a moderate is, please. |
Bluenorthwest |
Jan-16-10 12:10 PM |
#39 |
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Honestly? |
Motown_Johnny |
Jan-16-10 12:25 PM |
#55 |
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The real MYTH is that there IS a unified Democratic base, |
Richardo |
Jan-16-10 11:24 AM |
#14 |
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If you are right, you're saying the Democratic Party has no core principles. |
Laelth |
Jan-16-10 11:52 AM |
#25 |
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No, what he is saying is that we belong to no organized political party, we are Democrats |
Motown_Johnny |
Jan-16-10 11:56 AM |
#29 |
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I totally agree. |
crispini |
Jan-16-10 01:06 PM |
#72 |
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Recommend |
xchrom |
Jan-16-10 11:25 AM |
#15 |
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Cheers! |
Laelth |
Jan-16-10 03:24 PM |
#88 |
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I think this is an oversimplification of electoral situations. |
crispini |
Jan-16-10 11:26 AM |
#16 |
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Of course the math is different in every district. |
Laelth |
Jan-16-10 12:07 PM |
#36 |
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Uh no. |
crispini |
Jan-16-10 01:03 PM |
#71 |
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I admit that gerrymandering does happen. |
Laelth |
Jan-16-10 01:49 PM |
#78 |
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You don't think the Obama election represented an "energized" base? |
crispini |
Jan-16-10 04:52 PM |
#90 |
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They know it's not true. Obama didn't run as a centrist. |
Hello_Kitty |
Jan-16-10 11:26 AM |
#17 |
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By your logic, Dennis Kucinich should be President right now because |
Arkana |
Jan-16-10 11:28 AM |
#18 |
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You realize of course the winner of the Democratic convention is pretty much |
RC |
Jan-16-10 11:57 AM |
#31 |
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I think I heard Hillary say that once |
Motown_Johnny |
Jan-16-10 11:59 AM |
#32 |
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Seriously, that must be news to Hillary Clinton |
Hippo_Tron |
Jan-17-10 03:02 PM |
#95 |
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Abdicate all responsibility for the people |
treestar |
Jan-16-10 12:23 PM |
#54 |
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What else does the CIA tell you through the fillings in your teeth? |
Arkana |
Jan-16-10 01:49 PM |
#79 |
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KR+4 |
inna |
Jan-16-10 11:38 AM |
#19 |
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I found your assumptions about independents off base and illogical. |
noamnety |
Jan-16-10 11:56 AM |
#28 |
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I admit that I did not do a full profile of the psychological mindset of independent voters. |
Laelth |
Jan-16-10 12:12 PM |
#41 |
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I saw a post on DU a day or two ago |
noamnety |
Jan-16-10 12:21 PM |
#51 |
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That would be a better world. |
Laelth |
Jan-16-10 12:49 PM |
#68 |
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We need independents, but independents are not the same thing as "centrists" |
Bjorn Against |
Jan-16-10 12:05 PM |
#34 |
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You read my mind! |
PassingFair |
Jan-16-10 12:08 PM |
#38 |
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Yes, but you are only about 2 or 3 % of the electorate, and there is no chance you will |
Motown_Johnny |
Jan-16-10 12:16 PM |
#47 |
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Your last sentence says it all |
treestar |
Jan-16-10 12:22 PM |
#52 |
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These "swing voters" you speak of are usually not too concerned about issues |
Bjorn Against |
Jan-16-10 12:28 PM |
#59 |
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Bill Clinton won, Obama won, Kennedy won, Carter, Truman.. hmmmm how many purists have been elected? |
Peacetrain |
Jan-16-10 12:07 PM |
#37 |
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Kennedy and Truman were way more leftist than Obama or Clinton. |
anonymous171 |
Jan-16-10 12:12 PM |
#42 |
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Do not mix up Bobbys later politics with Johns politics.. Kennedy and Truman were anything but left |
Peacetrain |
Jan-16-10 12:15 PM |
#45 |
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Really? |
anonymous171 |
Jan-16-10 12:23 PM |
#53 |
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Really... HCR has been pushed by Teddy R and Nixon.. |
Peacetrain |
Jan-16-10 12:27 PM |
#58 |
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Yes, but back then they had an actual enemy. |
anonymous171 |
Jan-16-10 12:32 PM |
#61 |
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You are making my point.. Truman and Kennedy both were anything but political purists.. |
Peacetrain |
Jan-16-10 12:34 PM |
#62 |
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Yes, but they were far more leftist than Obama or Clinton |
anonymous171 |
Jan-16-10 12:34 PM |
#63 |
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Nope.. |
Peacetrain |
Jan-16-10 12:38 PM |
#64 |
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Exactly |
Individualist |
Jan-16-10 01:06 PM |
#73 |
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The GOP is more homogenized. That is why that strategy works for them. |
davsand |
Jan-16-10 12:13 PM |
#43 |
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I hear you, and I don't entirely disagree. |
Laelth |
Jan-16-10 12:26 PM |
#57 |
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I honestly think voter select candidates based on how they perceive them. |
davsand |
Jan-16-10 01:31 PM |
#76 |
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Thoughtful post. Thanks. |
Laelth |
Jan-16-10 02:48 PM |
#83 |
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I believe there are left leaning independents and right leaning independents |
elocs |
Jan-16-10 12:15 PM |
#46 |
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I agree, and I have argued something similar before. |
Laelth |
Jan-16-10 12:31 PM |
#60 |
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Will Rogers: "I belong to no organized party. I am a Democrat." |
elocs |
Jan-16-10 12:54 PM |
#70 |
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It does, but the Democratic Party will suffer if that doesn't change soon. |
Laelth |
Jan-16-10 03:13 PM |
#86 |
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That would be in the campaign |
treestar |
Jan-16-10 12:17 PM |
#48 |
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A good politician governs to win. He/she does stuff that his constituents like |
anonymous171 |
Jan-16-10 12:47 PM |
#66 |
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I don't see that |
treestar |
Jan-16-10 04:55 PM |
#91 |
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Hogshit analysis. Obama won because he won the swing voters. What planet are you on. |
RBInMaine |
Jan-16-10 12:51 PM |
#69 |
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You are such a pleasant person. |
Laelth |
Jan-16-10 01:08 PM |
#74 |
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His manners aside, |
Codeine |
Jan-16-10 01:33 PM |
#77 |
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Or, he's dead wrong. |
Laelth |
Jan-16-10 02:14 PM |
#80 |
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By appealing to the right they lose the left. Actions have consequences. K&R |
Tierra_y_Libertad |
Jan-16-10 02:45 PM |
#82 |
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Agreed. Good article on that very subject linked below. |
Laelth |
Jan-16-10 02:50 PM |
#84 |
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Agreed. |
Tierra_y_Libertad |
Jan-16-10 02:52 PM |
#85 |
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EXACTLY! |
Demeter |
Jan-16-10 03:16 PM |
#87 |
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That makes zero sense. |
ChimpersMcSmirkers |
Jan-16-10 04:01 PM |
#89 |