| 122. What does the lender have control over? Loan approval. |
|
And I doubt that some of them have a "Denied" stamp in their desk drawer.
Also, the lender controls whether to hold or sell the loan. They may elect to hold loans with borrowers who have stellar credit, while acting as a mere broker on questionable loans, selling them off to the highest bidder or to an institution with which they have a cozy relationship.
Why bother to deny a loan application when you know that you're not going to lose, whether or not that loan is ever repaid?
|
| -I'm getting really sick of hearing about people who "bought more house than they could afford" --- |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 10:02 AM |
#0 |
 -
K&R number four, all you need is two hundred more! |
Deja Q |
Nov-26-09 10:06 AM |
#1 |
  -
We live in a $46 thousand dollar "hovel" . . . |
DollyM |
Nov-26-09 02:21 PM |
#68 |
| -
Please forgive my sense of melodrama... |
Deja Q |
Nov-26-09 10:15 PM |
#102 |
| -
Good luck |
era veteran |
Nov-27-09 06:08 AM |
#133 |
| -
+1000 |
baldguy |
Nov-26-09 10:06 AM |
#2 |
| -
Or some of the corporations. |
Deja Q |
Nov-26-09 10:10 AM |
#8 |
| -
Most of the bad mortgages were not from banks |
FarCenter |
Nov-26-09 01:13 PM |
#62 |
| -
But who bought them up after they were |
waiting for hope |
Nov-26-09 05:14 PM |
#71 |
| -
We got our mortgage from a LOCAL BANK, |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-27-09 05:19 AM |
#124 |
| -
I think that CitiMortgage is part of CitiGroup, but it is not a bank |
FarCenter |
Nov-28-09 09:56 AM |
#191 |
| -
CitiMortgage owns the paper on my house - |
waiting for hope |
Nov-28-09 01:45 PM |
#203 |
| -
But they never would have gotten all that free money if they had admitted they were at fault |
Go2Peace |
Nov-27-09 12:50 AM |
#113 |
| -
BUSH'S CHEAP MONEY MAKES HIGHER PRICES POSSIBLE |
HowHasItComeToThis |
Nov-27-09 01:41 AM |
#120 |
| -
They didn't buy them with cash, after all. |
Barack_America |
Nov-26-09 10:07 AM |
#3 |
| -
In every other profession there are standards of conduct. |
wolfgangmo |
Nov-27-09 09:42 AM |
#164 |
| -
Countrywide lost a huge lawsuit |
sandnsea |
Nov-26-09 10:09 AM |
#4 |
| -
When we bought our home three years ago - |
donco6 |
Nov-26-09 10:09 AM |
#5 |
| -
And, people forget that even a 'affordable' home is very expensive |
debbierlus |
Nov-26-09 10:35 AM |
#23 |
| -
What was affordable may not be anymore with all the rates going up with everything. |
glinda |
Nov-26-09 11:10 AM |
#31 |
| -
In 1997 |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-26-09 10:59 AM |
#30 |
| -
Same thing with us. |
OnionPatch |
Nov-26-09 11:42 AM |
#41 |
| -
What about the |
skepticscott |
Nov-26-09 07:14 PM |
#76 |
| -
Peer pressure? |
gorfle |
Nov-26-09 09:40 PM |
#96 |
| -
It's not so simple, I have been sold an ajustable before and they lie through their teeth |
Go2Peace |
Nov-27-09 01:03 AM |
#115 |
| -
It's also that people are illiterate when it comes to banking, and loan officers can prey on that. |
Selatius |
Nov-27-09 05:37 AM |
#128 |
| -
Everyone was doing it? |
skepticscott |
Nov-27-09 07:09 AM |
#140 |
| -
See post #128 n/t. |
gorfle |
Nov-27-09 09:28 AM |
#157 |
| -
this american life- the giant pool of money. an excellent explanation of all |
mopinko |
Nov-27-09 09:18 AM |
#154 |
| -
thank you thank you |
gorfle |
Nov-27-09 09:30 AM |
#160 |
| -
yeah, & it was illegal to swap mortgages with other banks without |
KakistocracyHater |
Nov-27-09 12:26 AM |
#112 |
| -
You forgot the "con" in the ponzi scheme. |
fasttense |
Nov-27-09 05:44 AM |
#129 |
| -
Well, like I said, I didn't trust them myself. |
OnionPatch |
Nov-27-09 08:08 AM |
#145 |
| -
What "good old days" are you dreaming of? |
jmowreader |
Nov-28-09 10:11 AM |
#196 |
| -
Predators is way too nice |
Scruffy1 |
Nov-27-09 09:17 AM |
#153 |
| -
wrong url |
Scruffy1 |
Nov-27-09 09:22 AM |
#156 |
| -
The bank, if it suckered you, would've taken your loan and repackaged it into a security to sell. |
Selatius |
Nov-27-09 05:29 AM |
#126 |
| -
Maybe we should reframe "foreclosed" to be "getting Bernied (Madoff) |
wolfgangmo |
Nov-27-09 09:48 AM |
#165 |
| -
Absolutely right |
Alcibiades |
Nov-26-09 07:15 PM |
#77 |
| -
Kick, Rec and AMEN! |
Myrina |
Nov-26-09 10:10 AM |
#6 |
| -
People on both ends need to be held responsible |
bluestateguy |
Nov-26-09 10:10 AM |
#7 |
| -
The seducers and the seduced |
BeyondGeography |
Nov-26-09 10:17 AM |
#12 |
| -
I'm glad for your good judgment and happy ending. But when homebuyers act like humans |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 10:26 AM |
#19 |
| -
Lousy and hysterical analogy |
skepticscott |
Nov-26-09 07:10 PM |
#74 |
| -
No. |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-27-09 05:27 AM |
#125 |
| -
In a rape, your right to say no |
skepticscott |
Nov-27-09 07:01 AM |
#139 |
| -
"Solely with the consumer"? |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-27-09 10:10 AM |
#168 |
| -
No, they have none |
skepticscott |
Nov-28-09 08:51 AM |
#186 |
| -
Again, |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-28-09 09:05 AM |
#187 |
| -
Are you deluded? |
skepticscott |
Nov-28-09 09:33 AM |
#190 |
| -
It's not a rant. |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-28-09 10:08 AM |
#195 |
| -
good points...i was pissed when i wrote this and thus probably not as rational as could be. |
sojourner |
Nov-27-09 04:38 PM |
#179 |
| -
I don't deny |
skepticscott |
Nov-28-09 09:07 AM |
#188 |
| -
i understand (and to a degree agree with) that...... the problem is, |
sojourner |
Nov-28-09 01:14 PM |
#201 |
| -
dupe delete |
sojourner |
Nov-27-09 04:40 PM |
#180 |
| -
Agreed |
Sherman A1 |
Nov-26-09 10:49 AM |
#28 |
| -
If "personal responsibility" is a two way street here, the lenders have 5 lanes, borrowers 1 |
Gormy Cuss |
Nov-26-09 11:20 AM |
#34 |
| -
Yep. |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-26-09 11:34 AM |
#39 |
| -
And was she |
skepticscott |
Nov-26-09 07:24 PM |
#81 |
| -
Truth be told, |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-27-09 04:58 AM |
#121 |
| -
exactly. |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 11:44 AM |
#43 |
| -
Who ultimately has control |
skepticscott |
Nov-26-09 07:21 PM |
#79 |
| -
Who has an expectation of a well regulated mortgage market? The borrower. |
Gormy Cuss |
Nov-27-09 12:07 AM |
#111 |
| -
And what exactly does |
skepticscott |
Nov-27-09 07:28 AM |
#141 |
| -
Dishonest and fraudulent practices were rampant in the mortgage industry |
Gormy Cuss |
Nov-27-09 10:54 AM |
#173 |
| -
And as I've stated numerous times |
skepticscott |
Nov-28-09 09:17 AM |
#189 |
| -
What does the lender have control over? Loan approval. |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-27-09 05:04 AM |
#122 |
| -
Nigerian Scam Emailers.... |
jberryhill |
Nov-26-09 11:55 AM |
#47 |
| -
I hope you aren't saying |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-26-09 12:10 PM |
#52 |
| -
No, and I don't sympathize with con men of any type |
jberryhill |
Nov-26-09 07:29 PM |
#82 |
| -
Con men know, you can't cheat an honest person. |
pokercat999 |
Nov-27-09 06:13 AM |
#134 |
| -
At the very least |
skepticscott |
Nov-27-09 08:08 AM |
#146 |
| -
That is laughable |
quakerboy |
Nov-28-09 02:04 AM |
#182 |
| -
Busted, maybe I should have said the EASIEST people to |
pokercat999 |
Nov-28-09 05:39 AM |
#184 |
| -
what the hell? where did that shit come from? are you a con man, and so privvy to the "rules"? |
sojourner |
Nov-28-09 01:16 PM |
#202 |
| -
Agree 100%. |
emilyg |
Nov-26-09 06:59 PM |
#73 |
| -
There used to be LAWS that protected people. |
Stinky The Clown |
Nov-26-09 10:12 AM |
#9 |
| -
It was the most predatory marketing I have ever seen. |
YOY |
Nov-26-09 10:14 AM |
#10 |
| -
The banks said investing in these houses was good financial sense. |
Gold Metal Flake |
Nov-26-09 10:16 AM |
#11 |
| -
Adjustable rate mortgages should be illegal. |
SPedigrees |
Nov-26-09 10:20 AM |
#13 |
| -
The bank didn't do that for you |
skepticscott |
Nov-26-09 07:41 PM |
#85 |
| -
Maybe not warmer and fuzzier, |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-27-09 05:35 AM |
#127 |
| -
Thank you. Exactly what I meant. |
SPedigrees |
Nov-27-09 04:05 PM |
#178 |
| -
Not illegal, just restricted |
FreeJoe |
Nov-27-09 11:57 AM |
#177 |
| -
Everyone in California has bought more house than they can afford |
lunatica |
Nov-26-09 10:22 AM |
#14 |
| -
And that's the other issue-- affordability at a time of rapidly escalating sales prices. |
Gormy Cuss |
Nov-26-09 11:47 AM |
#44 |
| -
Your argument assumes |
skepticscott |
Nov-26-09 07:44 PM |
#86 |
| -
Nowhere did I state anything of the sort. |
Gormy Cuss |
Nov-26-09 11:58 PM |
#110 |
| -
One of the problems in and around San Francisco |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-27-09 05:15 AM |
#123 |
| -
Building up these days is much safer than it used to be. |
Gormy Cuss |
Nov-27-09 10:44 AM |
#171 |
| -
So what specifically was the |
skepticscott |
Nov-27-09 08:35 AM |
#149 |
| -
It was a direct response to someone commenting about the SF Bay area market |
Gormy Cuss |
Nov-27-09 10:46 AM |
#172 |
| -
North Dakota has 4.2% unemployment |
Alcibiades |
Nov-26-09 07:19 PM |
#78 |
| -
Who's buying these days? |
lunatica |
Nov-26-09 08:32 PM |
#93 |
| -
That's a great idea...IF you can find a job....(insert sarcasm tag here ) |
prairierose |
Nov-27-09 10:00 AM |
#167 |
| -
I read your subject line and was mentally composing a flame |
Warpy |
Nov-26-09 10:22 AM |
#15 |
| -
thanks, Warpy, for reading before flaming... |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 10:31 AM |
#21 |
| -
i agree with everything you said and I want to add that hope is a powerful drug |
dugaresa |
Nov-27-09 10:56 AM |
#175 |
| -
I would also blame |
quakerboy |
Nov-28-09 03:09 PM |
#204 |
| -
I have no sympathy for flippers, though. |
QC |
Nov-26-09 10:22 AM |
#16 |
| -
It depends on the type of flipper |
Warpy |
Nov-26-09 10:30 AM |
#20 |
| -
I would moderate even that |
quakerboy |
Nov-28-09 03:16 PM |
#205 |
| -
There were a lot of these people |
Alcibiades |
Nov-26-09 07:22 PM |
#80 |
| -
Agreed. n/t |
QC |
Nov-26-09 10:11 PM |
#100 |
| -
How true. Not one single bank has closed because of bad loans. Not one. |
Buzz Clik |
Nov-26-09 10:23 AM |
#17 |
| -
I've changed my perspective on this... |
jberryhill |
Nov-26-09 10:24 AM |
#18 |
| -
Yes, what happened to trust? |
KatyMan |
Nov-26-09 11:51 AM |
#46 |
| -
The mortgage broker makes more money if he puts you in a larger, riskier mortgage |
FarCenter |
Nov-26-09 01:19 PM |
#63 |
| -
Exactly |
skepticscott |
Nov-26-09 08:03 PM |
#89 |
| -
I think people who engage a realtor |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-27-09 05:45 AM |
#130 |
| -
Unless you engage a buyer's agent |
skepticscott |
Nov-27-09 07:37 AM |
#143 |
| -
In our town, at least, |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-27-09 11:48 AM |
#176 |
| -
would you mind sharing what led to change of perspective? |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 11:59 AM |
#49 |
| -
Application Of Humility and Compassion |
jberryhill |
Nov-26-09 10:23 PM |
#104 |
| -
So if a person is not ultimately responsible |
skepticscott |
Nov-26-09 07:49 PM |
#87 |
| -
Con jobs do take two parties... but... |
jberryhill |
Nov-26-09 10:27 PM |
#105 |
| -
The industry's bad, but the buyers are NOT blameless. |
deadmessengers |
Nov-26-09 10:32 AM |
#22 |
| -
I'll tell you as I've told others...glad for you that you have the knowledge that brought you that |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 10:39 AM |
#25 |
| -
Please do not put words in my mouth. |
deadmessengers |
Nov-26-09 10:51 AM |
#29 |
| -
and when you fall victim to someone, something that you DIDN'T have a ready defense? You will take |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 11:32 AM |
#37 |
| -
+1 |
wtmusic |
Nov-26-09 12:27 PM |
#58 |
| -
Your argument invalidly assumes |
skepticscott |
Nov-26-09 07:58 PM |
#88 |
| -
Most people don't go to sales training or have an army of lawyers to cover their ass |
AllentownJake |
Nov-26-09 11:15 AM |
#32 |
| -
the lack of any conscience...or maybe, a sleepless night now and then? certainly nothing |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 11:57 AM |
#48 |
| -
We have encourage socipathic behavior in society |
AllentownJake |
Nov-26-09 11:59 AM |
#50 |
| -
as a collective, what you say is true. that also pisses me off. society has glorified predators |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 12:05 PM |
#51 |
| -
Human nature |
AllentownJake |
Nov-26-09 12:11 PM |
#53 |
| -
i am proudly not a member of the tribe of those who are stealing or buying politicians |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 12:18 PM |
#55 |
| -
There used to be a name for that tribe |
AllentownJake |
Nov-26-09 12:35 PM |
#61 |
| -
Agreed! |
MrsCorleone |
Nov-26-09 04:01 PM |
#70 |
| -
But as I said in Post #30 of this thread, |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-26-09 11:19 AM |
#33 |
| -
Is that a fact? |
Missy Vixen |
Nov-26-09 11:36 AM |
#40 |
| -
that's the point of this post, actually. I am so sorry for what you're going through. |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 11:43 AM |
#42 |
| -
A suggestion, |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-27-09 05:56 AM |
#132 |
| -
Living on disability here. |
Hatchling |
Nov-26-09 10:35 AM |
# |
| -
K&R - well said n/t |
Sinti |
Nov-26-09 10:35 AM |
#24 |
| -
Friend of mine was an appraiser |
Mopar151 |
Nov-26-09 10:44 AM |
#26 |
| -
I haven't been "told" by any bank or credit union that I can afford |
TwilightGardener |
Nov-26-09 10:47 AM |
#27 |
| -
Well, you haven't had our experience, then, |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-26-09 11:29 AM |
#36 |
| -
I guess I haven't. I remember feeling both times like we were LUCKY |
TwilightGardener |
Nov-26-09 12:34 PM |
#60 |
| -
Again, that was NOT our experience. |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-26-09 01:52 PM |
#67 |
| -
i have plenty of compassion for those who actually got screwn. |
uncle ray |
Nov-26-09 11:21 AM |
#35 |
| -
SOME -- not most -- and probably fewer than you think ARE guilty of simple greed. |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 11:49 AM |
#45 |
| -
K & R....good post..thank you.. |
winyanstaz |
Nov-26-09 11:33 AM |
#38 |
| -
Problem is, there are lots of people who bought more house than they could afford who are in trouble |
earth mom |
Nov-26-09 12:17 PM |
#54 |
| -
truth |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 12:19 PM |
#56 |
| -
By all means, we can't blame anyone for their part in something. |
RB TexLa |
Nov-26-09 12:21 PM |
#57 |
| -
you can. or you can look at walking a mile in their shoes. it's a choice of worldviews. one leads |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 01:51 PM |
#66 |
| -
After watching small town visitors to NYC get taken by Three Card Monty dealers |
SOS |
Nov-26-09 02:43 PM |
#69 |
| -
Some did. But there was a general mentality that forms like in any bubble. |
DuaneBidoux |
Nov-26-09 12:28 PM |
#59 |
| -
"Buying More House" conjures up McMansions. |
juno jones |
Nov-26-09 01:29 PM |
#64 |
| -
that's what I'm saying. the meme of personal responsibility has |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 01:49 PM |
#65 |
| -
Thank you |
Political_Junkie |
Nov-26-09 06:10 PM |
#72 |
| -
There were people who did this: mainly very well off people |
Alcibiades |
Nov-26-09 07:13 PM |
#75 |
| -
AMEN, Alcibiades!!! |
Mimosa |
Nov-28-09 05:14 AM |
#183 |
| -
Some of the anger comes from those of us who feel priced out by them |
Recursion |
Nov-26-09 07:31 PM |
#83 |
| -
It is always refreshing to know that "tough love" is alive |
Kid Dynamite |
Nov-26-09 07:35 PM |
#84 |
| -
A pox on the skunk that unrec'ed this! |
Patchuli |
Nov-26-09 08:03 PM |
#90 |
| -
It's people who can't afford a house at all |
treestar |
Nov-26-09 08:22 PM |
#91 |
| -
I'm thankful for your message,k*r |
autorank |
Nov-26-09 08:24 PM |
#92 |
| -
The banks were given so much TARP money with no strings attached. |
Riley18 |
Nov-26-09 08:32 PM |
#94 |
| -
"All the banks are going to do is keep the money"??? |
boppers |
Nov-27-09 01:33 AM |
#118 |
| -
K&R!!! |
SammyWinstonJack |
Nov-26-09 08:36 PM |
#95 |
| -
People were practically browbeaten into buying houses |
Lydia Leftcoast |
Nov-26-09 09:52 PM |
#97 |
| -
Rec. |
bertman |
Nov-26-09 09:58 PM |
#98 |
| -
Agreed, this is not the time for minor fine tuning. |
pundaint |
Nov-26-09 10:06 PM |
#99 |
| -
And the other line "saving up for college". At $12000+ per year, for lowt wages, nobody would be ABL |
Deja Q |
Nov-26-09 10:14 PM |
#101 |
| -
I agree and disagree |
nini |
Nov-26-09 10:17 PM |
#103 |
| -
I did buy much more home than most could afford... |
bobshin |
Nov-26-09 10:53 PM |
#106 |
| -
FIGHT BACK |
annm4peace |
Nov-26-09 10:56 PM |
#107 |
| -
thank you n/t |
rumpel |
Nov-26-09 11:16 PM |
#108 |
| -
Agreed. Was there not a time that the banks were not allowed to loan you money |
gristy |
Nov-26-09 11:22 PM |
#109 |
| -
Banks were NEVER |
skepticscott |
Nov-27-09 08:01 AM |
#144 |
| -
my how you parse....restrictive = not allowed and it matters not why. consumers were unaccustomed to |
bettyellen |
Nov-27-09 09:21 AM |
#155 |
| -
You can call it parsing |
skepticscott |
Nov-27-09 09:42 AM |
#163 |
| -
it doesn't make me feel anything. fact is the rules changed +despite Bloomberg et al, consumers |
bettyellen |
Nov-27-09 10:20 AM |
#169 |
| -
The philosophy today is: anything any shark can get away with is ok. |
Waiting For Everyman |
Nov-27-09 12:54 AM |
#114 |
| -
The "house-bubble" would-be-buyers are the ones in a real pickle |
SoCalDem |
Nov-27-09 01:14 AM |
#116 |
| -
Looking at it that way |
arikara |
Nov-27-09 01:39 AM |
#119 |
| -
Besides, the bad mortgages only caused a small part of the problem. |
JDPriestly |
Nov-27-09 01:27 AM |
#117 |
| -
I remember house shopping with my hubby long ago. |
JNelson6563 |
Nov-27-09 05:49 AM |
#131 |
| -
Fundy's have been encouraging people to buy more than they can afford |
era veteran |
Nov-27-09 06:21 AM |
#135 |
| -
Read Nance Gregg's article today......she calls it "lack of conscience".......n/t |
secondwind |
Nov-27-09 06:35 AM |
#136 |
| -
The "laissez faire" crowd would decriminalize flim-flam scams. |
DailyGrind51 |
Nov-27-09 06:59 AM |
#137 |
| -
None |
skepticscott |
Nov-27-09 09:55 AM |
#166 |
| -
That's right, and if any one of us loses his/her job at any time, |
Trailrider1951 |
Nov-27-09 06:59 AM |
#138 |
| -
Why is it then that only some people were "victimized" by dishonest banks and |
Bentcorner |
Nov-27-09 07:28 AM |
#142 |
| -
I don't know where to begin with you. |
TheCowsCameHome |
Nov-27-09 08:12 AM |
#147 |
| -
Why thank you. Thank you very much. |
Bentcorner |
Nov-27-09 09:00 AM |
#150 |
| -
The do bear some responsibility though. |
alarimer |
Nov-27-09 08:32 AM |
#148 |
| -
+1 |
Kaleva |
Nov-27-09 09:29 AM |
#158 |
| -
If the broker told them they could afford it, they are not to blame! |
ecstatic |
Nov-27-09 10:29 AM |
#170 |
| -
I agree 100% |
Don Draper |
Nov-27-09 09:01 AM |
#151 |
| -
Besides it is a repuke talking point. |
kenfrequed |
Nov-27-09 09:10 AM |
#152 |
| -
It's the nature of bubbles |
Turbineguy |
Nov-27-09 09:29 AM |
#159 |
| -
"...where is any sense of compassion in this world?" |
KansDem |
Nov-27-09 09:31 AM |
#161 |
| -
not really..........and that's the sad answer to the question, isn't it? |
sojourner |
Nov-27-09 04:46 PM |
#181 |
| -
Even my credit union |
quaker bill |
Nov-27-09 09:39 AM |
#162 |
| -
Sorry, but personal responsibility does play an important role here |
MadHound |
Nov-27-09 10:54 AM |
#174 |
| -
I'm sick of idiots who bought more house than they could afford |
Taitertots |
Nov-28-09 07:53 AM |
#185 |
| -
These are right wing talking points |
treestar |
Nov-28-09 09:58 AM |
#192 |
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Banks making loans available is a good thing |
Taitertots |
Nov-28-09 10:31 AM |
#200 |
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I agree - I thik the banks need some blame, but basically, people didn't do their homework. |
Rabrrrrrr |
Nov-28-09 10:05 AM |
#194 |
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I didn't buy a house during the bubble because I knew that I could not afford one. |
QC |
Nov-28-09 10:03 AM |
#193 |
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Neither did I and now we are being asked to pay for their over spending n/t |
Taitertots |
Nov-28-09 10:23 AM |
#199 |
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who is asking you for anything? fine to give money to bankers, no strings. fine to bail out AIG. but |
sojourner |
Nov-28-09 03:53 PM |
#206 |
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The scheme was interest only or low mortgage payments and escalating home prices. |
Fla Dem |
Nov-28-09 10:17 AM |
#197 |
| -
Not all those people were duped. I bought a house years ago. I knew what Icould afford. |
Honeycombe8 |
Nov-28-09 10:23 AM |
#198 |
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