| 10. It was the most predatory marketing I have ever seen. |
|
When I was unemployed they'd call me weekly asking about 100% commission sales jobs selling these things.
I started cussing them out. I know it sounds rude but I saw no good coming from this. Not on the products end...not on the distribution end...not to the health of the supplier.
I heard some conserivdope saying that banks were forced to offer these mortgages...bull fucking shit. Nobody held a gun to their heads. They were loving this.
|
| -I'm getting really sick of hearing about people who "bought more house than they could afford" --- |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 10:02 AM |
#0 |
 -
K&R number four, all you need is two hundred more! |
Deja Q |
Nov-26-09 10:06 AM |
#1 |
  -
We live in a $46 thousand dollar "hovel" . . . |
DollyM |
Nov-26-09 02:21 PM |
#68 |
| -
Please forgive my sense of melodrama... |
Deja Q |
Nov-26-09 10:15 PM |
#102 |
| -
Good luck |
era veteran |
Nov-27-09 06:08 AM |
#133 |
| -
+1000 |
baldguy |
Nov-26-09 10:06 AM |
#2 |
| -
Or some of the corporations. |
Deja Q |
Nov-26-09 10:10 AM |
#8 |
| -
Most of the bad mortgages were not from banks |
FarCenter |
Nov-26-09 01:13 PM |
#62 |
| -
But who bought them up after they were |
waiting for hope |
Nov-26-09 05:14 PM |
#71 |
| -
We got our mortgage from a LOCAL BANK, |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-27-09 05:19 AM |
#124 |
| -
I think that CitiMortgage is part of CitiGroup, but it is not a bank |
FarCenter |
Nov-28-09 09:56 AM |
#191 |
| -
CitiMortgage owns the paper on my house - |
waiting for hope |
Nov-28-09 01:45 PM |
#203 |
| -
But they never would have gotten all that free money if they had admitted they were at fault |
Go2Peace |
Nov-27-09 12:50 AM |
#113 |
| -
BUSH'S CHEAP MONEY MAKES HIGHER PRICES POSSIBLE |
HowHasItComeToThis |
Nov-27-09 01:41 AM |
#120 |
| -
They didn't buy them with cash, after all. |
Barack_America |
Nov-26-09 10:07 AM |
#3 |
| -
In every other profession there are standards of conduct. |
wolfgangmo |
Nov-27-09 09:42 AM |
#164 |
| -
Countrywide lost a huge lawsuit |
sandnsea |
Nov-26-09 10:09 AM |
#4 |
| -
When we bought our home three years ago - |
donco6 |
Nov-26-09 10:09 AM |
#5 |
| -
And, people forget that even a 'affordable' home is very expensive |
debbierlus |
Nov-26-09 10:35 AM |
#23 |
| -
What was affordable may not be anymore with all the rates going up with everything. |
glinda |
Nov-26-09 11:10 AM |
#31 |
| -
In 1997 |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-26-09 10:59 AM |
#30 |
| -
Same thing with us. |
OnionPatch |
Nov-26-09 11:42 AM |
#41 |
| -
What about the |
skepticscott |
Nov-26-09 07:14 PM |
#76 |
| -
Peer pressure? |
gorfle |
Nov-26-09 09:40 PM |
#96 |
| -
It's not so simple, I have been sold an ajustable before and they lie through their teeth |
Go2Peace |
Nov-27-09 01:03 AM |
#115 |
| -
It's also that people are illiterate when it comes to banking, and loan officers can prey on that. |
Selatius |
Nov-27-09 05:37 AM |
#128 |
| -
Everyone was doing it? |
skepticscott |
Nov-27-09 07:09 AM |
#140 |
| -
See post #128 n/t. |
gorfle |
Nov-27-09 09:28 AM |
#157 |
| -
this american life- the giant pool of money. an excellent explanation of all |
mopinko |
Nov-27-09 09:18 AM |
#154 |
| -
thank you thank you |
gorfle |
Nov-27-09 09:30 AM |
#160 |
| -
yeah, & it was illegal to swap mortgages with other banks without |
KakistocracyHater |
Nov-27-09 12:26 AM |
#112 |
| -
You forgot the "con" in the ponzi scheme. |
fasttense |
Nov-27-09 05:44 AM |
#129 |
| -
Well, like I said, I didn't trust them myself. |
OnionPatch |
Nov-27-09 08:08 AM |
#145 |
| -
What "good old days" are you dreaming of? |
jmowreader |
Nov-28-09 10:11 AM |
#196 |
| -
Predators is way too nice |
Scruffy1 |
Nov-27-09 09:17 AM |
#153 |
| -
wrong url |
Scruffy1 |
Nov-27-09 09:22 AM |
#156 |
| -
The bank, if it suckered you, would've taken your loan and repackaged it into a security to sell. |
Selatius |
Nov-27-09 05:29 AM |
#126 |
| -
Maybe we should reframe "foreclosed" to be "getting Bernied (Madoff) |
wolfgangmo |
Nov-27-09 09:48 AM |
#165 |
| -
Absolutely right |
Alcibiades |
Nov-26-09 07:15 PM |
#77 |
| -
Kick, Rec and AMEN! |
Myrina |
Nov-26-09 10:10 AM |
#6 |
| -
People on both ends need to be held responsible |
bluestateguy |
Nov-26-09 10:10 AM |
#7 |
| -
The seducers and the seduced |
BeyondGeography |
Nov-26-09 10:17 AM |
#12 |
| -
I'm glad for your good judgment and happy ending. But when homebuyers act like humans |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 10:26 AM |
#19 |
| -
Lousy and hysterical analogy |
skepticscott |
Nov-26-09 07:10 PM |
#74 |
| -
No. |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-27-09 05:27 AM |
#125 |
| -
In a rape, your right to say no |
skepticscott |
Nov-27-09 07:01 AM |
#139 |
| -
"Solely with the consumer"? |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-27-09 10:10 AM |
#168 |
| -
No, they have none |
skepticscott |
Nov-28-09 08:51 AM |
#186 |
| -
Again, |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-28-09 09:05 AM |
#187 |
| -
Are you deluded? |
skepticscott |
Nov-28-09 09:33 AM |
#190 |
| -
It's not a rant. |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-28-09 10:08 AM |
#195 |
| -
good points...i was pissed when i wrote this and thus probably not as rational as could be. |
sojourner |
Nov-27-09 04:38 PM |
#179 |
| -
I don't deny |
skepticscott |
Nov-28-09 09:07 AM |
#188 |
| -
i understand (and to a degree agree with) that...... the problem is, |
sojourner |
Nov-28-09 01:14 PM |
#201 |
| -
dupe delete |
sojourner |
Nov-27-09 04:40 PM |
#180 |
| -
Agreed |
Sherman A1 |
Nov-26-09 10:49 AM |
#28 |
| -
If "personal responsibility" is a two way street here, the lenders have 5 lanes, borrowers 1 |
Gormy Cuss |
Nov-26-09 11:20 AM |
#34 |
| -
Yep. |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-26-09 11:34 AM |
#39 |
| -
And was she |
skepticscott |
Nov-26-09 07:24 PM |
#81 |
| -
Truth be told, |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-27-09 04:58 AM |
#121 |
| -
exactly. |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 11:44 AM |
#43 |
| -
Who ultimately has control |
skepticscott |
Nov-26-09 07:21 PM |
#79 |
| -
Who has an expectation of a well regulated mortgage market? The borrower. |
Gormy Cuss |
Nov-27-09 12:07 AM |
#111 |
| -
And what exactly does |
skepticscott |
Nov-27-09 07:28 AM |
#141 |
| -
Dishonest and fraudulent practices were rampant in the mortgage industry |
Gormy Cuss |
Nov-27-09 10:54 AM |
#173 |
| -
And as I've stated numerous times |
skepticscott |
Nov-28-09 09:17 AM |
#189 |
| -
What does the lender have control over? Loan approval. |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-27-09 05:04 AM |
#122 |
| -
Nigerian Scam Emailers.... |
jberryhill |
Nov-26-09 11:55 AM |
#47 |
| -
I hope you aren't saying |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-26-09 12:10 PM |
#52 |
| -
No, and I don't sympathize with con men of any type |
jberryhill |
Nov-26-09 07:29 PM |
#82 |
| -
Con men know, you can't cheat an honest person. |
pokercat999 |
Nov-27-09 06:13 AM |
#134 |
| -
At the very least |
skepticscott |
Nov-27-09 08:08 AM |
#146 |
| -
That is laughable |
quakerboy |
Nov-28-09 02:04 AM |
#182 |
| -
Busted, maybe I should have said the EASIEST people to |
pokercat999 |
Nov-28-09 05:39 AM |
#184 |
| -
what the hell? where did that shit come from? are you a con man, and so privvy to the "rules"? |
sojourner |
Nov-28-09 01:16 PM |
#202 |
| -
Agree 100%. |
emilyg |
Nov-26-09 06:59 PM |
#73 |
| -
There used to be LAWS that protected people. |
Stinky The Clown |
Nov-26-09 10:12 AM |
#9 |
| -
It was the most predatory marketing I have ever seen. |
YOY |
Nov-26-09 10:14 AM |
#10 |
| -
The banks said investing in these houses was good financial sense. |
Gold Metal Flake |
Nov-26-09 10:16 AM |
#11 |
| -
Adjustable rate mortgages should be illegal. |
SPedigrees |
Nov-26-09 10:20 AM |
#13 |
| -
The bank didn't do that for you |
skepticscott |
Nov-26-09 07:41 PM |
#85 |
| -
Maybe not warmer and fuzzier, |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-27-09 05:35 AM |
#127 |
| -
Thank you. Exactly what I meant. |
SPedigrees |
Nov-27-09 04:05 PM |
#178 |
| -
Not illegal, just restricted |
FreeJoe |
Nov-27-09 11:57 AM |
#177 |
| -
Everyone in California has bought more house than they can afford |
lunatica |
Nov-26-09 10:22 AM |
#14 |
| -
And that's the other issue-- affordability at a time of rapidly escalating sales prices. |
Gormy Cuss |
Nov-26-09 11:47 AM |
#44 |
| -
Your argument assumes |
skepticscott |
Nov-26-09 07:44 PM |
#86 |
| -
Nowhere did I state anything of the sort. |
Gormy Cuss |
Nov-26-09 11:58 PM |
#110 |
| -
One of the problems in and around San Francisco |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-27-09 05:15 AM |
#123 |
| -
Building up these days is much safer than it used to be. |
Gormy Cuss |
Nov-27-09 10:44 AM |
#171 |
| -
So what specifically was the |
skepticscott |
Nov-27-09 08:35 AM |
#149 |
| -
It was a direct response to someone commenting about the SF Bay area market |
Gormy Cuss |
Nov-27-09 10:46 AM |
#172 |
| -
North Dakota has 4.2% unemployment |
Alcibiades |
Nov-26-09 07:19 PM |
#78 |
| -
Who's buying these days? |
lunatica |
Nov-26-09 08:32 PM |
#93 |
| -
That's a great idea...IF you can find a job....(insert sarcasm tag here ) |
prairierose |
Nov-27-09 10:00 AM |
#167 |
| -
I read your subject line and was mentally composing a flame |
Warpy |
Nov-26-09 10:22 AM |
#15 |
| -
thanks, Warpy, for reading before flaming... |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 10:31 AM |
#21 |
| -
i agree with everything you said and I want to add that hope is a powerful drug |
dugaresa |
Nov-27-09 10:56 AM |
#175 |
| -
I would also blame |
quakerboy |
Nov-28-09 03:09 PM |
#204 |
| -
I have no sympathy for flippers, though. |
QC |
Nov-26-09 10:22 AM |
#16 |
| -
It depends on the type of flipper |
Warpy |
Nov-26-09 10:30 AM |
#20 |
| -
I would moderate even that |
quakerboy |
Nov-28-09 03:16 PM |
#205 |
| -
There were a lot of these people |
Alcibiades |
Nov-26-09 07:22 PM |
#80 |
| -
Agreed. n/t |
QC |
Nov-26-09 10:11 PM |
#100 |
| -
How true. Not one single bank has closed because of bad loans. Not one. |
Buzz Clik |
Nov-26-09 10:23 AM |
#17 |
| -
I've changed my perspective on this... |
jberryhill |
Nov-26-09 10:24 AM |
#18 |
| -
Yes, what happened to trust? |
KatyMan |
Nov-26-09 11:51 AM |
#46 |
| -
The mortgage broker makes more money if he puts you in a larger, riskier mortgage |
FarCenter |
Nov-26-09 01:19 PM |
#63 |
| -
Exactly |
skepticscott |
Nov-26-09 08:03 PM |
#89 |
| -
I think people who engage a realtor |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-27-09 05:45 AM |
#130 |
| -
Unless you engage a buyer's agent |
skepticscott |
Nov-27-09 07:37 AM |
#143 |
| -
In our town, at least, |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-27-09 11:48 AM |
#176 |
| -
would you mind sharing what led to change of perspective? |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 11:59 AM |
#49 |
| -
Application Of Humility and Compassion |
jberryhill |
Nov-26-09 10:23 PM |
#104 |
| -
So if a person is not ultimately responsible |
skepticscott |
Nov-26-09 07:49 PM |
#87 |
| -
Con jobs do take two parties... but... |
jberryhill |
Nov-26-09 10:27 PM |
#105 |
| -
The industry's bad, but the buyers are NOT blameless. |
deadmessengers |
Nov-26-09 10:32 AM |
#22 |
| -
I'll tell you as I've told others...glad for you that you have the knowledge that brought you that |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 10:39 AM |
#25 |
| -
Please do not put words in my mouth. |
deadmessengers |
Nov-26-09 10:51 AM |
#29 |
| -
and when you fall victim to someone, something that you DIDN'T have a ready defense? You will take |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 11:32 AM |
#37 |
| -
+1 |
wtmusic |
Nov-26-09 12:27 PM |
#58 |
| -
Your argument invalidly assumes |
skepticscott |
Nov-26-09 07:58 PM |
#88 |
| -
Most people don't go to sales training or have an army of lawyers to cover their ass |
AllentownJake |
Nov-26-09 11:15 AM |
#32 |
| -
the lack of any conscience...or maybe, a sleepless night now and then? certainly nothing |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 11:57 AM |
#48 |
| -
We have encourage socipathic behavior in society |
AllentownJake |
Nov-26-09 11:59 AM |
#50 |
| -
as a collective, what you say is true. that also pisses me off. society has glorified predators |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 12:05 PM |
#51 |
| -
Human nature |
AllentownJake |
Nov-26-09 12:11 PM |
#53 |
| -
i am proudly not a member of the tribe of those who are stealing or buying politicians |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 12:18 PM |
#55 |
| -
There used to be a name for that tribe |
AllentownJake |
Nov-26-09 12:35 PM |
#61 |
| -
Agreed! |
MrsCorleone |
Nov-26-09 04:01 PM |
#70 |
| -
But as I said in Post #30 of this thread, |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-26-09 11:19 AM |
#33 |
| -
Is that a fact? |
Missy Vixen |
Nov-26-09 11:36 AM |
#40 |
| -
that's the point of this post, actually. I am so sorry for what you're going through. |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 11:43 AM |
#42 |
| -
A suggestion, |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-27-09 05:56 AM |
#132 |
| -
Living on disability here. |
Hatchling |
Nov-26-09 10:35 AM |
# |
| -
K&R - well said n/t |
Sinti |
Nov-26-09 10:35 AM |
#24 |
| -
Friend of mine was an appraiser |
Mopar151 |
Nov-26-09 10:44 AM |
#26 |
| -
I haven't been "told" by any bank or credit union that I can afford |
TwilightGardener |
Nov-26-09 10:47 AM |
#27 |
| -
Well, you haven't had our experience, then, |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-26-09 11:29 AM |
#36 |
| -
I guess I haven't. I remember feeling both times like we were LUCKY |
TwilightGardener |
Nov-26-09 12:34 PM |
#60 |
| -
Again, that was NOT our experience. |
TicketyBoo |
Nov-26-09 01:52 PM |
#67 |
| -
i have plenty of compassion for those who actually got screwn. |
uncle ray |
Nov-26-09 11:21 AM |
#35 |
| -
SOME -- not most -- and probably fewer than you think ARE guilty of simple greed. |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 11:49 AM |
#45 |
| -
K & R....good post..thank you.. |
winyanstaz |
Nov-26-09 11:33 AM |
#38 |
| -
Problem is, there are lots of people who bought more house than they could afford who are in trouble |
earth mom |
Nov-26-09 12:17 PM |
#54 |
| -
truth |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 12:19 PM |
#56 |
| -
By all means, we can't blame anyone for their part in something. |
RB TexLa |
Nov-26-09 12:21 PM |
#57 |
| -
you can. or you can look at walking a mile in their shoes. it's a choice of worldviews. one leads |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 01:51 PM |
#66 |
| -
After watching small town visitors to NYC get taken by Three Card Monty dealers |
SOS |
Nov-26-09 02:43 PM |
#69 |
| -
Some did. But there was a general mentality that forms like in any bubble. |
DuaneBidoux |
Nov-26-09 12:28 PM |
#59 |
| -
"Buying More House" conjures up McMansions. |
juno jones |
Nov-26-09 01:29 PM |
#64 |
| -
that's what I'm saying. the meme of personal responsibility has |
sojourner |
Nov-26-09 01:49 PM |
#65 |
| -
Thank you |
Political_Junkie |
Nov-26-09 06:10 PM |
#72 |
| -
There were people who did this: mainly very well off people |
Alcibiades |
Nov-26-09 07:13 PM |
#75 |
| -
AMEN, Alcibiades!!! |
Mimosa |
Nov-28-09 05:14 AM |
#183 |
| -
Some of the anger comes from those of us who feel priced out by them |
Recursion |
Nov-26-09 07:31 PM |
#83 |
| -
It is always refreshing to know that "tough love" is alive |
Kid Dynamite |
Nov-26-09 07:35 PM |
#84 |
| -
A pox on the skunk that unrec'ed this! |
Patchuli |
Nov-26-09 08:03 PM |
#90 |
| -
It's people who can't afford a house at all |
treestar |
Nov-26-09 08:22 PM |
#91 |
| -
I'm thankful for your message,k*r |
autorank |
Nov-26-09 08:24 PM |
#92 |
| -
The banks were given so much TARP money with no strings attached. |
Riley18 |
Nov-26-09 08:32 PM |
#94 |
| -
"All the banks are going to do is keep the money"??? |
boppers |
Nov-27-09 01:33 AM |
#118 |
| -
K&R!!! |
SammyWinstonJack |
Nov-26-09 08:36 PM |
#95 |
| -
People were practically browbeaten into buying houses |
Lydia Leftcoast |
Nov-26-09 09:52 PM |
#97 |
| -
Rec. |
bertman |
Nov-26-09 09:58 PM |
#98 |
| -
Agreed, this is not the time for minor fine tuning. |
pundaint |
Nov-26-09 10:06 PM |
#99 |
| -
And the other line "saving up for college". At $12000+ per year, for lowt wages, nobody would be ABL |
Deja Q |
Nov-26-09 10:14 PM |
#101 |
| -
I agree and disagree |
nini |
Nov-26-09 10:17 PM |
#103 |
| -
I did buy much more home than most could afford... |
bobshin |
Nov-26-09 10:53 PM |
#106 |
| -
FIGHT BACK |
annm4peace |
Nov-26-09 10:56 PM |
#107 |
| -
thank you n/t |
rumpel |
Nov-26-09 11:16 PM |
#108 |
| -
Agreed. Was there not a time that the banks were not allowed to loan you money |
gristy |
Nov-26-09 11:22 PM |
#109 |
| -
Banks were NEVER |
skepticscott |
Nov-27-09 08:01 AM |
#144 |
| -
my how you parse....restrictive = not allowed and it matters not why. consumers were unaccustomed to |
bettyellen |
Nov-27-09 09:21 AM |
#155 |
| -
You can call it parsing |
skepticscott |
Nov-27-09 09:42 AM |
#163 |
| -
it doesn't make me feel anything. fact is the rules changed +despite Bloomberg et al, consumers |
bettyellen |
Nov-27-09 10:20 AM |
#169 |
| -
The philosophy today is: anything any shark can get away with is ok. |
Waiting For Everyman |
Nov-27-09 12:54 AM |
#114 |
| -
The "house-bubble" would-be-buyers are the ones in a real pickle |
SoCalDem |
Nov-27-09 01:14 AM |
#116 |
| -
Looking at it that way |
arikara |
Nov-27-09 01:39 AM |
#119 |
| -
Besides, the bad mortgages only caused a small part of the problem. |
JDPriestly |
Nov-27-09 01:27 AM |
#117 |
| -
I remember house shopping with my hubby long ago. |
JNelson6563 |
Nov-27-09 05:49 AM |
#131 |
| -
Fundy's have been encouraging people to buy more than they can afford |
era veteran |
Nov-27-09 06:21 AM |
#135 |
| -
Read Nance Gregg's article today......she calls it "lack of conscience".......n/t |
secondwind |
Nov-27-09 06:35 AM |
#136 |
| -
The "laissez faire" crowd would decriminalize flim-flam scams. |
DailyGrind51 |
Nov-27-09 06:59 AM |
#137 |
| -
None |
skepticscott |
Nov-27-09 09:55 AM |
#166 |
| -
That's right, and if any one of us loses his/her job at any time, |
Trailrider1951 |
Nov-27-09 06:59 AM |
#138 |
| -
Why is it then that only some people were "victimized" by dishonest banks and |
Bentcorner |
Nov-27-09 07:28 AM |
#142 |
| -
I don't know where to begin with you. |
TheCowsCameHome |
Nov-27-09 08:12 AM |
#147 |
| -
Why thank you. Thank you very much. |
Bentcorner |
Nov-27-09 09:00 AM |
#150 |
| -
The do bear some responsibility though. |
alarimer |
Nov-27-09 08:32 AM |
#148 |
| -
+1 |
Kaleva |
Nov-27-09 09:29 AM |
#158 |
| -
If the broker told them they could afford it, they are not to blame! |
ecstatic |
Nov-27-09 10:29 AM |
#170 |
| -
I agree 100% |
Don Draper |
Nov-27-09 09:01 AM |
#151 |
| -
Besides it is a repuke talking point. |
kenfrequed |
Nov-27-09 09:10 AM |
#152 |
| -
It's the nature of bubbles |
Turbineguy |
Nov-27-09 09:29 AM |
#159 |
| -
"...where is any sense of compassion in this world?" |
KansDem |
Nov-27-09 09:31 AM |
#161 |
| -
not really..........and that's the sad answer to the question, isn't it? |
sojourner |
Nov-27-09 04:46 PM |
#181 |
| -
Even my credit union |
quaker bill |
Nov-27-09 09:39 AM |
#162 |
| -
Sorry, but personal responsibility does play an important role here |
MadHound |
Nov-27-09 10:54 AM |
#174 |
| -
I'm sick of idiots who bought more house than they could afford |
Taitertots |
Nov-28-09 07:53 AM |
#185 |
| -
These are right wing talking points |
treestar |
Nov-28-09 09:58 AM |
#192 |
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Banks making loans available is a good thing |
Taitertots |
Nov-28-09 10:31 AM |
#200 |
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I agree - I thik the banks need some blame, but basically, people didn't do their homework. |
Rabrrrrrr |
Nov-28-09 10:05 AM |
#194 |
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I didn't buy a house during the bubble because I knew that I could not afford one. |
QC |
Nov-28-09 10:03 AM |
#193 |
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Neither did I and now we are being asked to pay for their over spending n/t |
Taitertots |
Nov-28-09 10:23 AM |
#199 |
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who is asking you for anything? fine to give money to bankers, no strings. fine to bail out AIG. but |
sojourner |
Nov-28-09 03:53 PM |
#206 |
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The scheme was interest only or low mortgage payments and escalating home prices. |
Fla Dem |
Nov-28-09 10:17 AM |
#197 |
| -
Not all those people were duped. I bought a house years ago. I knew what Icould afford. |
Honeycombe8 |
Nov-28-09 10:23 AM |
#198 |
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