Zomby Woof
(1000+ posts)
|
Mon Nov-02-09 12:59 PM
Response to Original message |
| 74. Nation-states, like people, tend toward creation myths |
 |
Edited on Mon Nov-02-09 01:07 PM by Zomby Woof
The "Founding Fathers" are the secular gods of the republic, gathered at Mt. Olympus, er, Independence Hall, plotting and scheming while watching over us. We even have the appropriate Greek and Roman architecture in our national and state capital buildings and courthouses to demonstrate this mythical connection.
As for what they "intended", the built-in paradox of that notion is, in order to do what the framers intended, we must be free to do what we intend on our own. They created the process of amending the Constitution for a reason. If we really wanted to follow their example, we would scrap the document every generation or so, call a new convention, and start from scratch, keeping what works (most of the Bill of Rights, but clarify Amendment II please), tossing away what doesn't, or is irrelevant to today's experience (Amendment III), and of course, create innovations regarding healthcare, terms of office, etc. Think of the constitutions created for Germany and Japan after WWII when we helped them rebuild. Those were forward-looking documents which used our creaky Constitution as inspiration, but did not demand absolute fealty or fidelity.
The mythical pull of the Constitution is owed largely to its continuing longevity, which has caused many of us to revere it as Holy Writ, and therefore, instills in us a reluctance to tamper with it. Although the amendment process is difficult for a reason - to prevent impulsive changes or inhibit prevailing mob sentiment - it is still not immune to trends or current social norms, hence experiments such as Prohibition. Nor should it be. A truly lasting and flexible document must allow room for error, as long as said errors are correctable. Still, a fresh start every 20-30 years would do a republic good.
Being a secular sort myself, I tend to prefer viewing the framers as flesh-and-blood flawed human beings, people of virtue and vice like the rest of us, rather than the marble deities of a Greek temple. It actually demeans us to deify them. I also never refer to them as the "Founding Fathers" and all the patriarchal baggage it carries. I prefer the generic and pragmatic "framers" in its place. So as a result of this mass religious fervor, we are burdened as a nation with our politicians, pundits, and propagandists scurrying about, aiding and abetting a built-in framers-induced inferiority complex, with their constant utterances of "WWTFFD?" - What Would The Founding Fathers Do?
What of the propagandists and how they demean us? Think of how the framers are constantly being hijacked by the likes of Beck or Limbaugh in order to serve their authoritarian agenda. They project upon the framers their ideology - and because the framers are omnipotent and omniscient gods to those of us with an authoritarian bent, this ideology must be the One and Only Correct Ideology, and as a result, it is easy to marginalize the opposition as un-American heretics.
There are only three words in the Constitition worthy of anything approaching religious reverence, and I hope would remain unaltered if we should ever summon the courage and wisdom necessary to renew the promises of popular rule:
We the people.
|
Why do people deify of the 'Founding Fathers'? |
arcadian |
Nov-02-09 11:24 AM |
#0 |

Careful There - The Founding Founders Are Some Of the Last Hope Many Of Us Have |
ProleNoMore |
Nov-02-09 11:26 AM |
#1 |
 
Hate to break it to you, they are all dead and will not save you. |
tekisui |
Nov-02-09 11:27 AM |
#2 |
  
No One Asked For Salvation, Just Inspiration And Wisdom |
ProleNoMore |
Nov-02-09 11:30 AM |
#7 |
   
"No One Asked..." |
arcadian |
Nov-02-09 11:48 AM |
#26 |
    
The One Would Be Me As Addressed By The Poster Responded To |
ProleNoMore |
Nov-02-09 12:00 PM |
#38 |
   
From people who thought I shouldn't have the right to vote or own property? |
Critters2 |
Nov-02-09 12:46 PM |
#62 |
  
Exactly. Their ideals are outdated and need to be reformed. |
Xenotime |
Nov-02-09 01:27 PM |
#98 |
 
Which ideals need to be reformed? |
TwilightGardener |
Nov-02-09 04:48 PM |
#119 |
 
Proportional representation in the Senate would be a great start. nt |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 05:57 PM |
#136 |
 
What would that achieve? Beyond preventing less-populated states |
TwilightGardener |
Nov-02-09 06:20 PM |
#140 |
  
It would achieve proportional representation in the Senate. |
Romulox |
Nov-03-09 03:02 PM |
#166 |
 
How about just cutting their terms in half? nt |
anonymous171 |
Nov-02-09 06:38 PM |
#143 |
 
Then a NEW guy from Iowa or South Dakota will hold us hostage. |
Romulox |
Nov-03-09 03:04 PM |
#167 |
 
Hold us hostage from what? A bill allowing the bigger states to shit all over smaller ones? |
anonymous171 |
Nov-03-09 03:22 PM |
#169 |
 
Pork laden farm bills, for example. |
Romulox |
Nov-04-09 10:18 AM |
#180 |
 
Thank you. |
arcadian |
Nov-02-09 11:31 AM |
#9 |

Our founders devised a hideously broken political system |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 11:27 AM |
#3 |
 
They designed a political system that suits the interest of their class. |
JVS |
Nov-02-09 11:29 AM |
#6 |
  
And it has withstood the test of time. |
tekisui |
Nov-02-09 11:32 AM |
#10 |
  
Very perceptive. Agree 100%. nt |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 11:34 AM |
#13 |
  
Not true |
treestar |
Nov-02-09 01:18 PM |
#92 |
 
The creation of this country as a constitutional republic was wholly an experiment. |
no_hypocrisy |
Nov-02-09 11:36 AM |
#14 |
  
An experiment in *what* exactly? An experiment in plutocracy |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 11:39 AM |
#16 |
   
An experiment in creating a country from a colony, a country with |
no_hypocrisy |
Nov-02-09 11:44 AM |
#21 |
  
I'm pretty sure the US wasn't the first colony-turned-slaveholder's paradise... |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 11:45 AM |
#23 |
  
That's funny, I thought they used the Greek and Roman model. |
arcadian |
Nov-02-09 11:44 AM |
#22 |
   
More Roman than Greek |
AllentownJake |
Nov-02-09 11:50 AM |
#28 |
  
So why do they call the architecture of the 1820's--1860's "Greek Revival"? |
TwilightGardener |
Nov-02-09 12:50 PM |
#67 |
  
The Romans stole from the Greeks |
AllentownJake |
Nov-02-09 12:52 PM |
#68 |
  
Sorry, I'm pretty sure the bulk of inspiration came from an admiration |
TwilightGardener |
Nov-02-09 12:59 PM |
#72 |
  
Our legal structure is more Roman than Greek |
AllentownJake |
Nov-02-09 01:04 PM |
#78 |
  
But you're missing my point--the origin of Greek Revival architecture was |
TwilightGardener |
Nov-02-09 01:09 PM |
#82 |
  
Greece is the foundation of all Western Culture |
AllentownJake |
Nov-02-09 01:21 PM |
#95 |
  
It was done before |
AllentownJake |
Nov-02-09 11:49 AM |
#27 |
 
It was done far more recently than that. Parliament had been around since 1707 |
JVS |
Nov-02-09 01:43 PM |
#104 |
 
True our founders beef was more that they couldn't |
AllentownJake |
Nov-02-09 01:45 PM |
#105 |
 
They understood the injustice of aristocracy and plutocracy |
dhpgetsit |
Nov-02-09 11:40 AM |
#18 |
  
Then why did they ensconce them into law? (Not to mention slavery). |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 11:56 AM |
#33 |
   
Slavery |
cark |
Nov-02-09 12:48 PM |
# |
    
An absolute nonsense. The constitution did not "need" to be ratified to include slavery. |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 12:52 PM |
#69 |
   
If you knew anything about history |
cark |
Nov-02-09 01:32 PM |
#101 |
   
On the contrary, I know there was a robust Abolitionist movement in the late 18th century |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 04:32 PM |
#116 |
   
You completely ignore reality |
cark |
Nov-02-09 05:39 PM |
#127 |
   
Well they could've chosen not to...own...slaves. No? |
spoony |
Nov-02-09 05:46 PM |
#131 |
   
Reality Check - Fantasy Land doesn't exist |
cark |
Nov-02-09 06:09 PM |
#138 |
   
Lol, wow |
spoony |
Nov-02-09 06:21 PM |
#141 |
   
Ease up, pal! |
dhpgetsit |
Nov-02-09 09:25 PM |
#151 |
    
What is intellect without integrity? |
spoony |
Nov-03-09 12:10 PM |
#156 |
   
Jefferson and others believed slavery would be abandoned before long. |
dhpgetsit |
Nov-02-09 09:55 PM |
#152 |
  
Yeah....that foundation was the backs of slaves. |
marmar |
Nov-02-09 11:59 AM |
#36 |
 
Then why the fuck are you here? |
cliffordu |
Nov-02-09 12:17 PM |
#49 |
  
"Love it or leave it" is an idiotic sentiment. nt |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 12:25 PM |
#53 |
   
So is haunting a board that is ostensibly for people who |
cliffordu |
Nov-02-09 12:30 PM |
#56 |
    
I didn't think it was possible, but this post is stupider than the last. |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 12:35 PM |
#58 |
   
Well, there ya go then. |
cliffordu |
Nov-02-09 12:39 PM |
#60 |
    
You don't *realy* believe that "love it or leave it...ya got no purpose" is a conversation starter |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 12:42 PM |
#61 |
   
After you shared your little beliefs about the founders and what they created, I just had to ask. |
cliffordu |
Nov-02-09 12:47 PM |
#63 |
   
Your argument would make a Freeper blush. It's pathetic. nt |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 12:49 PM |
#66 |
   
I think pathetic is a nice word and coming from you I think I'll wear it |
cliffordu |
Nov-02-09 12:54 PM |
#70 |
   
Just retreat to General Discussion: Status Quo. You paens to blind patriotism will play well there |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 12:56 PM |
#71 |
   
WELL....... |
cliffordu |
Nov-02-09 12:59 PM |
#73 |
   
Syntax? Grammar? Logic? ABORT! ABORT! nt |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 01:02 PM |
#76 |
   
You didn't answer the question |
treestar |
Nov-02-09 01:14 PM |
#88 |
   
I'm not engaging in any "dialogue" that begins with the proposition "love it or leave it" |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 04:00 PM |
#113 |
   
The dialogue here began with "this post is stupider than the last." |
treestar |
Nov-03-09 05:09 PM |
#174 |
   
No More Idiotic Than Your Own. |
OPERATIONMINDCRIME |
Nov-02-09 01:02 PM |
#77 |
  
Ut oh. This thread is about to get all Intellecshual up in here! |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 01:10 PM |
#84 |
  
Nope. Nothing Could Save This Thread. |
OPERATIONMINDCRIME |
Nov-02-09 01:14 PM |
#87 |
  
Yep. DOA. |
cliffordu |
Nov-02-09 01:15 PM |
#90 |
  
wow, it's truly bizarre you get this angry. I thought this was |
jonnyblitz |
Nov-02-09 12:48 PM |
#64 |
  
"Love it or leave it" is a logical fallacy called false dichotomy. |
ZombieHorde |
Nov-02-09 01:15 PM |
#89 |
   
And yet the walking stupor I responded to has regaled us with no such plans |
cliffordu |
Nov-02-09 01:29 PM |
#99 |
  
Says the fellow who began the exchange with "love or leave it,"...and MEANT it! |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 04:15 PM |
#114 |
  
And what did you begin your droolfest with?? |
cliffordu |
Nov-02-09 05:55 PM |
#134 |
  
Grow up. |
spoony |
Nov-02-09 01:24 PM |
#96 |
 
Well....... |
cliffordu |
Nov-02-09 01:30 PM |
#100 |
 
The slavery was already there |
treestar |
Nov-02-09 01:11 PM |
#85 |
  
Please don't bring actual historical fact into this, please. The haters will just |
cliffordu |
Nov-02-09 01:13 PM |
#86 |
  
Fair point, but absolutely NO EXCUSE for enshrining in our Constitution. |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 04:21 PM |
#115 |
 
So...our system of government and our Constitution are forever |
TwilightGardener |
Nov-02-09 04:45 PM |
#117 |
  
Our nation is forever stained by slavery. Does anyone argue otherwise? |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 04:52 PM |
#120 |
 
What does the stain of a practice that was abolished |
TwilightGardener |
Nov-02-09 05:32 PM |
#125 |
  
It reflects upon the authors of that wretched "compromise" and their alleged "brilliance". |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 05:39 PM |
#128 |
 
You said our system of government was "hideously broken". When asked why, you point |
TwilightGardener |
Nov-02-09 05:49 PM |
#132 |
 
You're conflating two distinct arguments |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 05:56 PM |
#135 |
 
I'm not conflating anything. I'm quoting you. You said our system |
TwilightGardener |
Nov-02-09 06:10 PM |
#139 |
 
Humanity is stained by slavery. nt |
anonymous171 |
Nov-02-09 07:05 PM |
#144 |
 
Well, you weren't there |
treestar |
Nov-03-09 05:11 PM |
#175 |
 
They didn't even put universal health care in the constitution... |
hughee99 |
Nov-02-09 07:17 PM |
#145 |
 
Our Founders Devised A Great System |
cark |
Nov-03-09 03:28 PM |
#171 |

Because they are dumb fucks. |
JVS |
Nov-02-09 11:28 AM |
#4 |

They usually do it because they're demagoguing some point. |
TexasObserver |
Nov-02-09 11:28 AM |
#5 |

The Founding Fathers were geniuses |
Nye Bevan |
Nov-02-09 11:31 AM |
#8 |
 
+infinity |
joeybee12 |
Nov-02-09 11:34 AM |
#12 |
  
"+infinity"? Really? |
arcadian |
Nov-02-09 11:41 AM |
#19 |
 
Yeah, but that was only about 4 months ago, wasn't it? |
joeybee12 |
Nov-02-09 11:52 AM |
#31 |
 
Is this guy for real? |
arcadian |
Nov-02-09 12:14 PM |
#46 |
 
Careful, you're about to get hit with |
spoony |
Nov-02-09 01:25 PM |
#97 |
 
Are you familiar with the 30 odd ammendments to their "brilliant" document, |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 11:37 AM |
#15 |
  
Part of the brilliance of their achievement |
Nye Bevan |
Nov-02-09 11:41 AM |
#20 |
   
Isn't that a neat bit of circular logic! |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 11:48 AM |
#25 |
  
I never said it wasn't brilliant |
Nye Bevan |
Nov-02-09 11:56 AM |
#34 |
   
Any document that enshrines slavery and rule by landed gentry is not "brilliant" |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 11:59 AM |
#35 |
  
That was the Dred Scott Decision by the Taney Supreme Court which occurred in 1857, |
Uncle Joe |
Nov-02-09 05:09 PM |
#123 |
  
It built the amendment system in |
treestar |
Nov-02-09 01:08 PM |
#81 |
  
You can't be arguing that there is any process under the US Constitution |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 04:48 PM |
#118 |
   
Yes there is |
treestar |
Nov-03-09 05:15 PM |
#177 |
  
You've accidentally stumbled upon a truth |
spoony |
Nov-02-09 04:54 PM |
#121 |
  
A little creative counting |
zipplewrath |
Nov-02-09 12:05 PM |
#41 |
   
That's more than a "little" creative accounting you've done there! |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 12:12 PM |
#43 |
  
well, it is to serve the point |
zipplewrath |
Nov-02-09 07:30 PM |
#147 |
  
At the time of the original Star Trek, the Klingons were the enemy |
XemaSab |
Nov-03-09 01:13 PM |
#160 |
 
wish I could rec a reply (yours) instead of an OP |
abq e streeter |
Nov-02-09 11:39 AM |
#17 |
 
They were both brilliant and brave |
Phoebe Loosinhouse |
Nov-02-09 11:55 AM |
#32 |
 
Thanks, but I'd like universal health care and effective gun control. |
Critters2 |
Nov-02-09 12:48 PM |
#65 |
  
People use the Bible to prevent my family from having |
Bluenorthwest |
Nov-02-09 01:46 PM |
#106 |
   
You have no idea what you're talking about. |
spoony |
Nov-02-09 05:01 PM |
#122 |
   
I do not preach your oppression. I celebrate your family, |
Critters2 |
Nov-02-09 09:17 PM |
#150 |
  
Healthcare would be nice. Gun control would be stupid. nt |
anonymous171 |
Nov-02-09 07:30 PM |
#146 |
 
Then these "genuises" constructed a constitution with no mention of individual rights. |
TexasObserver |
Nov-03-09 12:52 PM |
#158 |

They were a remarkably brilliant |
JonQ |
Nov-02-09 11:33 AM |
#11 |

Why did Rome deify Caesar? Why did Egypt deify the Pharoh? |
AllentownJake |
Nov-02-09 11:47 AM |
#24 |

They are our Remus and Romulus. The necessary myth, for national pride. |
Gman2 |
Nov-02-09 11:51 AM |
#29 |
 
It sounds like your paper was a masterpiece. |
Nye Bevan |
Nov-02-09 12:01 PM |
#39 |
  
The first line was, Well not really but! |
Gman2 |
Nov-02-09 12:25 PM |
#52 |
 
They even created our own Goddess, Columbia (Liberty). |
Greyhound |
Nov-02-09 02:34 PM |
#110 |

I had one wise history teacher through all of public school |
Warpy |
Nov-02-09 11:52 AM |
#30 |
 
"...who gave us a much better form of government than we probably deserved." |
dysfunctional press |
Nov-02-09 12:15 PM |
#47 |

That they were a bunch of self serving businessmen |
Warpy |
Nov-02-09 12:21 PM |
#50 |

actually, i was more interested in the "than we deserved" part... |
dysfunctional press |
Nov-02-09 12:28 PM |
#55 |
 
Self serving businessmen and landowners |
Warpy |
Nov-02-09 12:33 PM |
#57 |

shouldn't she have said better than THEY deserved? |
dysfunctional press |
Nov-02-09 12:37 PM |
#59 |

Strange post. You're giving them no credit for the bill of rights |
treestar |
Nov-02-09 01:20 PM |
#94 |

I'm giving them all the credit in the world |
Warpy |
Nov-02-09 02:07 PM |
#108 |

Edit. Forget it. |
Iggo |
Nov-02-09 12:00 PM |
#37 |

That thread title could use some work. |
Vickers |
Nov-02-09 12:01 PM |
#40 |

Gee, (looks around) what can I lash out at today? |
cherokeeprogressive |
Nov-02-09 12:06 PM |
#42 |

mostly rich white guys who didn't want to pay their taxes. |
dysfunctional press |
Nov-02-09 12:13 PM |
#44 |
 
So you would have been a Loyalist at that time, just agreeing to pay the taxes? |
treestar |
Nov-02-09 01:15 PM |
#91 |
  
not having been alive at the time, it's impossible to say. |
dysfunctional press |
Nov-02-09 01:35 PM |
#102 |
 
Not wanting to pay their taxes *while* also not having political representation |
JonQ |
Nov-02-09 02:33 PM |
#109 |

do you honestly consider yourself to have actual & fair representation in government today? |
dysfunctional press |
Nov-02-09 03:32 PM |
#112 |

No, I don't |
JonQ |
Nov-02-09 05:35 PM |
#126 |
 
"All the more reason to honor them."...tell that to the descendants of slaves at the time. |
dysfunctional press |
Nov-02-09 05:45 PM |
#130 |

I trust your ancestors never did anything |
JonQ |
Nov-02-09 05:49 PM |
#133 |
 
i'm 3/4 norwegian... |
dysfunctional press |
Nov-02-09 06:02 PM |
#137 |

So anyone in history who has any faults |
JonQ |
Nov-02-09 06:31 PM |
#142 |

and people need to be reminded that everyone is/was human. |
dysfunctional press |
Nov-02-09 07:33 PM |
#149 |

Who calls them gods? |
JonQ |
Nov-03-09 09:42 AM |
#153 |

who said that anyone did? |
dysfunctional press |
Nov-03-09 11:17 AM |
#154 |

Um, you did |
JonQ |
Nov-03-09 11:41 AM |
#155 |

um...no, i didn't. |
dysfunctional press |
Nov-03-09 01:12 PM |
#159 |

So that comparison you made then was |
JonQ |
Nov-03-09 01:45 PM |
#162 |

c-o-m-p-r-e-h-e-n-s-i-o-n. |
dysfunctional press |
Nov-03-09 01:57 PM |
#163 |

s-t-r-a-w-m-a-n |
JonQ |
Nov-03-09 02:14 PM |
#164 |

They set the system that led to abolition |
treestar |
Nov-03-09 05:07 PM |
#173 |

Wow, you're giving them credit for what better people did? |
spoony |
Nov-03-09 06:42 PM |
#179 |

The "better" people used their system |
treestar |
Nov-04-09 04:32 PM |
#181 |

Well it was a lot less so then! |
treestar |
Nov-03-09 05:06 PM |
#172 |

Maybe for the same reason that people here deify Dennis Kucinich. n/t |
elocs |
Nov-02-09 12:13 PM |
#45 |
 
The apotheosis of Dennis Kucinich? |
arcadian |
Nov-02-09 12:25 PM |
#51 |
 
But The Founding Fathers Were Actually, Like, Ya Know, Smart And Stuff. |
OPERATIONMINDCRIME |
Nov-02-09 01:05 PM |
#79 |
 
*snap* |
XemaSab |
Nov-03-09 01:41 PM |
#161 |

As you can see, even liberals have their irrational sacred cows. |
spoony |
Nov-02-09 12:16 PM |
#48 |

People call on the dead for backup all the time |
Sinti |
Nov-02-09 12:28 PM |
#54 |

Nation-states, like people, tend toward creation myths |
Zomby Woof |
Nov-02-09 12:59 PM |
#74 |

Yes. The Constitution Is Silly. |
OPERATIONMINDCRIME |
Nov-02-09 01:02 PM |
#75 |

Good Question. This country has had some Subsequent Fathers who have contributed... |
Taverner |
Nov-02-09 01:06 PM |
#80 |

I don't think they are deified |
treestar |
Nov-02-09 01:10 PM |
#83 |

Just human nature |
Bert |
Nov-02-09 01:20 PM |
#93 |

They Were Brilliant People Who Took Huge Risks |
NashVegas |
Nov-02-09 01:43 PM |
#103 |

In what way do you see them deified? |
Bluenorthwest |
Nov-02-09 02:07 PM |
#107 |
 
here are some examples: |
arcadian |
Nov-02-09 05:19 PM |
#124 |

I admire them. |
proteus_lives |
Nov-02-09 02:42 PM |
#111 |

UNREC. Progressives believe in constitutional government & |
philly_bob |
Nov-02-09 05:43 PM |
#129 |

Because the Founding Fathers are safely dead... |
Orsino |
Nov-02-09 07:33 PM |
#148 |

Because the founders believed in evolution |
Prism |
Nov-03-09 12:42 PM |
#157 |

Wow! Thanks for making Democrats look stupid. |
ItNerd4life |
Nov-03-09 02:25 PM |
#165 |
 
Nice. Red-baiting! nt |
spoony |
Nov-03-09 05:11 PM |
#176 |

They had some great ideas and some not so good ones. But at least Washington decided not to hoarde |
Jennicut |
Nov-03-09 03:08 PM |
#168 |

Thomas Jefferson is a large part of the reason that we have a bill of rights |
Hippo_Tron |
Nov-03-09 03:24 PM |
#170 |

I "deify" them because the set up a Secular Nation.... |
PassingFair |
Nov-03-09 05:18 PM |
#178 |

Because it's the only time you can say legitimately it's their country |
Ter |
Nov-04-09 04:58 PM |
#182 |