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Reply #74: Nation-states, like people, tend toward creation myths [View All]

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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Mon Nov-02-09 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
74. Nation-states, like people, tend toward creation myths
Edited on Mon Nov-02-09 01:07 PM by Zomby Woof
The "Founding Fathers" are the secular gods of the republic, gathered at Mt. Olympus, er, Independence Hall, plotting and scheming while watching over us. We even have the appropriate Greek and Roman architecture in our national and state capital buildings and courthouses to demonstrate this mythical connection.

As for what they "intended", the built-in paradox of that notion is, in order to do what the framers intended, we must be free to do what we intend on our own. They created the process of amending the Constitution for a reason. If we really wanted to follow their example, we would scrap the document every generation or so, call a new convention, and start from scratch, keeping what works (most of the Bill of Rights, but clarify Amendment II please), tossing away what doesn't, or is irrelevant to today's experience (Amendment III), and of course, create innovations regarding healthcare, terms of office, etc. Think of the constitutions created for Germany and Japan after WWII when we helped them rebuild. Those were forward-looking documents which used our creaky Constitution as inspiration, but did not demand absolute fealty or fidelity.

The mythical pull of the Constitution is owed largely to its continuing longevity, which has caused many of us to revere it as Holy Writ, and therefore, instills in us a reluctance to tamper with it. Although the amendment process is difficult for a reason - to prevent impulsive changes or inhibit prevailing mob sentiment - it is still not immune to trends or current social norms, hence experiments such as Prohibition. Nor should it be. A truly lasting and flexible document must allow room for error, as long as said errors are correctable. Still, a fresh start every 20-30 years would do a republic good.

Being a secular sort myself, I tend to prefer viewing the framers as flesh-and-blood flawed human beings, people of virtue and vice like the rest of us, rather than the marble deities of a Greek temple. It actually demeans us to deify them. I also never refer to them as the "Founding Fathers" and all the patriarchal baggage it carries. I prefer the generic and pragmatic "framers" in its place. So as a result of this mass religious fervor, we are burdened as a nation with our politicians, pundits, and propagandists scurrying about, aiding and abetting a built-in framers-induced inferiority complex, with their constant utterances of "WWTFFD?" - What Would The Founding Fathers Do?

What of the propagandists and how they demean us? Think of how the framers are constantly being hijacked by the likes of Beck or Limbaugh in order to serve their authoritarian agenda. They project upon the framers their ideology - and because the framers are omnipotent and omniscient gods to those of us with an authoritarian bent, this ideology must be the One and Only Correct Ideology, and as a result, it is easy to marginalize the opposition as un-American heretics.

There are only three words in the Constitition worthy of anything approaching religious reverence, and I hope would remain unaltered if we should ever summon the courage and wisdom necessary to renew the promises of popular rule:

We the people.
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  Why do people deify of the 'Founding Fathers'? arcadian  Nov-02-09 11:24 AM   #0 
   Careful There - The Founding Founders Are Some Of the Last Hope Many Of Us Have  ProleNoMore   Nov-02-09 11:26 AM   #1 
   Hate to break it to you, they are all dead and will not save you.  tekisui   Nov-02-09 11:27 AM   #2 
   No One Asked For Salvation, Just Inspiration And Wisdom  ProleNoMore   Nov-02-09 11:30 AM   #7 
   "No One Asked..."  arcadian   Nov-02-09 11:48 AM   #26 
   The One Would Be Me As Addressed By The Poster Responded To  ProleNoMore   Nov-02-09 12:00 PM   #38 
   From people who thought I shouldn't have the right to vote or own property?  Critters2   Nov-02-09 12:46 PM   #62 
   Exactly. Their ideals are outdated and need to be reformed.  Xenotime   Nov-02-09 01:27 PM   #98 
      Which ideals need to be reformed?  TwilightGardener   Nov-02-09 04:48 PM   #119 
         Proportional representation in the Senate would be a great start. nt  Romulox   Nov-02-09 05:57 PM   #136 
            What would that achieve? Beyond preventing less-populated states  TwilightGardener   Nov-02-09 06:20 PM   #140 
            It would achieve proportional representation in the Senate.  Romulox   Nov-03-09 03:02 PM   #166 
            How about just cutting their terms in half? nt  anonymous171   Nov-02-09 06:38 PM   #143 
               Then a NEW guy from Iowa or South Dakota will hold us hostage.  Romulox   Nov-03-09 03:04 PM   #167 
                  Hold us hostage from what? A bill allowing the bigger states to shit all over smaller ones?  anonymous171   Nov-03-09 03:22 PM   #169 
                     Pork laden farm bills, for example.  Romulox   Nov-04-09 10:18 AM   #180 
   Thank you.  arcadian   Nov-02-09 11:31 AM   #9 
   Our founders devised a hideously broken political system  Romulox   Nov-02-09 11:27 AM   #3 
   They designed a political system that suits the interest of their class.  JVS   Nov-02-09 11:29 AM   #6 
   And it has withstood the test of time.  tekisui   Nov-02-09 11:32 AM   #10 
   Very perceptive. Agree 100%. nt  Romulox   Nov-02-09 11:34 AM   #13 
   Not true  treestar   Nov-02-09 01:18 PM   #92 
   The creation of this country as a constitutional republic was wholly an experiment.  no_hypocrisy   Nov-02-09 11:36 AM   #14 
   An experiment in *what* exactly? An experiment in plutocracy  Romulox   Nov-02-09 11:39 AM   #16 
   An experiment in creating a country from a colony, a country with  no_hypocrisy   Nov-02-09 11:44 AM   #21 
      I'm pretty sure the US wasn't the first colony-turned-slaveholder's paradise...  Romulox   Nov-02-09 11:45 AM   #23 
   That's funny, I thought they used the Greek and Roman model.  arcadian   Nov-02-09 11:44 AM   #22 
   More Roman than Greek  AllentownJake   Nov-02-09 11:50 AM   #28 
      So why do they call the architecture of the 1820's--1860's "Greek Revival"?  TwilightGardener   Nov-02-09 12:50 PM   #67 
         The Romans stole from the Greeks  AllentownJake   Nov-02-09 12:52 PM   #68 
            Sorry, I'm pretty sure the bulk of inspiration came from an admiration  TwilightGardener   Nov-02-09 12:59 PM   #72 
               Our legal structure is more Roman than Greek  AllentownJake   Nov-02-09 01:04 PM   #78 
                  But you're missing my point--the origin of Greek Revival architecture was  TwilightGardener   Nov-02-09 01:09 PM   #82 
                     Greece is the foundation of all Western Culture  AllentownJake   Nov-02-09 01:21 PM   #95 
   It was done before  AllentownJake   Nov-02-09 11:49 AM   #27 
      It was done far more recently than that. Parliament had been around since 1707  JVS   Nov-02-09 01:43 PM   #104 
         True our founders beef was more that they couldn't  AllentownJake   Nov-02-09 01:45 PM   #105 
   They understood the injustice of aristocracy and plutocracy  dhpgetsit   Nov-02-09 11:40 AM   #18 
   Then why did they ensconce them into law? (Not to mention slavery).  Romulox   Nov-02-09 11:56 AM   #33 
   Slavery  cark   Nov-02-09 12:48 PM   # 
   An absolute nonsense. The constitution did not "need" to be ratified to include slavery.  Romulox   Nov-02-09 12:52 PM   #69 
      If you knew anything about history  cark   Nov-02-09 01:32 PM   #101 
         On the contrary, I know there was a robust Abolitionist movement in the late 18th century  Romulox   Nov-02-09 04:32 PM   #116 
            You completely ignore reality  cark   Nov-02-09 05:39 PM   #127 
               Well they could've chosen not to...own...slaves. No?  spoony   Nov-02-09 05:46 PM   #131 
                  Reality Check - Fantasy Land doesn't exist  cark   Nov-02-09 06:09 PM   #138 
                     Lol, wow  spoony   Nov-02-09 06:21 PM   #141 
   Ease up, pal!  dhpgetsit   Nov-02-09 09:25 PM   #151 
   What is intellect without integrity?  spoony   Nov-03-09 12:10 PM   #156 
   Jefferson and others believed slavery would be abandoned before long.  dhpgetsit   Nov-02-09 09:55 PM   #152 
   Yeah....that foundation was the backs of slaves.  marmar   Nov-02-09 11:59 AM   #36 
   Then why the fuck are you here?  cliffordu   Nov-02-09 12:17 PM   #49 
   "Love it or leave it" is an idiotic sentiment. nt  Romulox   Nov-02-09 12:25 PM   #53 
   So is haunting a board that is ostensibly for people who  cliffordu   Nov-02-09 12:30 PM   #56 
   I didn't think it was possible, but this post is stupider than the last.  Romulox   Nov-02-09 12:35 PM   #58 
      Well, there ya go then.  cliffordu   Nov-02-09 12:39 PM   #60 
      You don't *realy* believe that "love it or leave it...ya got no purpose" is a conversation starter  Romulox   Nov-02-09 12:42 PM   #61 
         After you shared your little beliefs about the founders and what they created, I just had to ask.  cliffordu   Nov-02-09 12:47 PM   #63 
            Your argument would make a Freeper blush. It's pathetic. nt  Romulox   Nov-02-09 12:49 PM   #66 
               I think pathetic is a nice word and coming from you I think I'll wear it  cliffordu   Nov-02-09 12:54 PM   #70 
                  Just retreat to General Discussion: Status Quo. You paens to blind patriotism will play well there  Romulox   Nov-02-09 12:56 PM   #71 
                     WELL.......  cliffordu   Nov-02-09 12:59 PM   #73 
                        Syntax? Grammar? Logic? ABORT! ABORT! nt  Romulox   Nov-02-09 01:02 PM   #76 
      You didn't answer the question  treestar   Nov-02-09 01:14 PM   #88 
         I'm not engaging in any "dialogue" that begins with the proposition "love it or leave it"  Romulox   Nov-02-09 04:00 PM   #113 
            The dialogue here began with "this post is stupider than the last."  treestar   Nov-03-09 05:09 PM   #174 
   No More Idiotic Than Your Own.  OPERATIONMINDCRIME   Nov-02-09 01:02 PM   #77 
      Ut oh. This thread is about to get all Intellecshual up in here!  Romulox   Nov-02-09 01:10 PM   #84 
         Nope. Nothing Could Save This Thread.  OPERATIONMINDCRIME   Nov-02-09 01:14 PM   #87 
            Yep. DOA.  cliffordu   Nov-02-09 01:15 PM   #90 
   wow, it's truly bizarre you get this angry. I thought this was  jonnyblitz   Nov-02-09 12:48 PM   #64 
   "Love it or leave it" is a logical fallacy called false dichotomy.  ZombieHorde   Nov-02-09 01:15 PM   #89 
   And yet the walking stupor I responded to has regaled us with no such plans  cliffordu   Nov-02-09 01:29 PM   #99 
      Says the fellow who began the exchange with "love or leave it,"...and MEANT it!  Romulox   Nov-02-09 04:15 PM   #114 
         And what did you begin your droolfest with??  cliffordu   Nov-02-09 05:55 PM   #134 
   Grow up.  spoony   Nov-02-09 01:24 PM   #96 
      Well.......  cliffordu   Nov-02-09 01:30 PM   #100 
   The slavery was already there  treestar   Nov-02-09 01:11 PM   #85 
   Please don't bring actual historical fact into this, please. The haters will just  cliffordu   Nov-02-09 01:13 PM   #86 
   Fair point, but absolutely NO EXCUSE for enshrining in our Constitution.  Romulox   Nov-02-09 04:21 PM   #115 
      So...our system of government and our Constitution are forever  TwilightGardener   Nov-02-09 04:45 PM   #117 
      Our nation is forever stained by slavery. Does anyone argue otherwise?  Romulox   Nov-02-09 04:52 PM   #120 
         What does the stain of a practice that was abolished  TwilightGardener   Nov-02-09 05:32 PM   #125 
         It reflects upon the authors of that wretched "compromise" and their alleged "brilliance".  Romulox   Nov-02-09 05:39 PM   #128 
            You said our system of government was "hideously broken". When asked why, you point  TwilightGardener   Nov-02-09 05:49 PM   #132 
               You're conflating two distinct arguments  Romulox   Nov-02-09 05:56 PM   #135 
                  I'm not conflating anything. I'm quoting you. You said our system  TwilightGardener   Nov-02-09 06:10 PM   #139 
         Humanity is stained by slavery. nt  anonymous171   Nov-02-09 07:05 PM   #144 
      Well, you weren't there  treestar   Nov-03-09 05:11 PM   #175 
   They didn't even put universal health care in the constitution...  hughee99   Nov-02-09 07:17 PM   #145 
   Our Founders Devised A Great System  cark   Nov-03-09 03:28 PM   #171 
   Because they are dumb fucks.  JVS   Nov-02-09 11:28 AM   #4 
   They usually do it because they're demagoguing some point.  TexasObserver   Nov-02-09 11:28 AM   #5 
   The Founding Fathers were geniuses  Nye Bevan   Nov-02-09 11:31 AM   #8 
   +infinity  joeybee12   Nov-02-09 11:34 AM   #12 
   "+infinity"? Really?  arcadian   Nov-02-09 11:41 AM   #19 
      Yeah, but that was only about 4 months ago, wasn't it?  joeybee12   Nov-02-09 11:52 AM   #31 
         Is this guy for real?  arcadian   Nov-02-09 12:14 PM   #46 
            Careful, you're about to get hit with  spoony   Nov-02-09 01:25 PM   #97 
   Are you familiar with the 30 odd ammendments to their "brilliant" document,  Romulox   Nov-02-09 11:37 AM   #15 
   Part of the brilliance of their achievement  Nye Bevan   Nov-02-09 11:41 AM   #20 
   Isn't that a neat bit of circular logic!  Romulox   Nov-02-09 11:48 AM   #25 
      I never said it wasn't brilliant  Nye Bevan   Nov-02-09 11:56 AM   #34 
      Any document that enshrines slavery and rule by landed gentry is not "brilliant"  Romulox   Nov-02-09 11:59 AM   #35 
         That was the Dred Scott Decision by the Taney Supreme Court which occurred in 1857,  Uncle Joe   Nov-02-09 05:09 PM   #123 
      It built the amendment system in  treestar   Nov-02-09 01:08 PM   #81 
         You can't be arguing that there is any process under the US Constitution  Romulox   Nov-02-09 04:48 PM   #118 
         Yes there is  treestar   Nov-03-09 05:15 PM   #177 
         You've accidentally stumbled upon a truth  spoony   Nov-02-09 04:54 PM   #121 
   A little creative counting  zipplewrath   Nov-02-09 12:05 PM   #41 
   That's more than a "little" creative accounting you've done there!  Romulox   Nov-02-09 12:12 PM   #43 
      well, it is to serve the point  zipplewrath   Nov-02-09 07:30 PM   #147 
   At the time of the original Star Trek, the Klingons were the enemy  XemaSab   Nov-03-09 01:13 PM   #160 
   wish I could rec a reply (yours) instead of an OP  abq e streeter   Nov-02-09 11:39 AM   #17 
   They were both brilliant and brave  Phoebe Loosinhouse   Nov-02-09 11:55 AM   #32 
   Thanks, but I'd like universal health care and effective gun control.  Critters2   Nov-02-09 12:48 PM   #65 
   People use the Bible to prevent my family from having  Bluenorthwest   Nov-02-09 01:46 PM   #106 
   You have no idea what you're talking about.  spoony   Nov-02-09 05:01 PM   #122 
   I do not preach your oppression. I celebrate your family,  Critters2   Nov-02-09 09:17 PM   #150 
   Healthcare would be nice. Gun control would be stupid. nt  anonymous171   Nov-02-09 07:30 PM   #146 
   Then these "genuises" constructed a constitution with no mention of individual rights.  TexasObserver   Nov-03-09 12:52 PM   #158 
   They were a remarkably brilliant  JonQ   Nov-02-09 11:33 AM   #11 
   Why did Rome deify Caesar? Why did Egypt deify the Pharoh?  AllentownJake   Nov-02-09 11:47 AM   #24 
   They are our Remus and Romulus. The necessary myth, for national pride.  Gman2   Nov-02-09 11:51 AM   #29 
   It sounds like your paper was a masterpiece.  Nye Bevan   Nov-02-09 12:01 PM   #39 
   The first line was, Well not really but!  Gman2   Nov-02-09 12:25 PM   #52 
   They even created our own Goddess, Columbia (Liberty).  Greyhound   Nov-02-09 02:34 PM   #110 
   I had one wise history teacher through all of public school  Warpy   Nov-02-09 11:52 AM   #30 
   "...who gave us a much better form of government than we probably deserved."  dysfunctional press   Nov-02-09 12:15 PM   #47 
      That they were a bunch of self serving businessmen  Warpy   Nov-02-09 12:21 PM   #50 
         actually, i was more interested in the "than we deserved" part...  dysfunctional press   Nov-02-09 12:28 PM   #55 
         Self serving businessmen and landowners  Warpy   Nov-02-09 12:33 PM   #57 
            shouldn't she have said better than THEY deserved?  dysfunctional press   Nov-02-09 12:37 PM   #59 
         Strange post. You're giving them no credit for the bill of rights  treestar   Nov-02-09 01:20 PM   #94 
            I'm giving them all the credit in the world  Warpy   Nov-02-09 02:07 PM   #108 
   Edit. Forget it.  Iggo   Nov-02-09 12:00 PM   #37 
   That thread title could use some work.  Vickers   Nov-02-09 12:01 PM   #40 
   Gee, (looks around) what can I lash out at today?  cherokeeprogressive   Nov-02-09 12:06 PM   #42 
   mostly rich white guys who didn't want to pay their taxes.  dysfunctional press   Nov-02-09 12:13 PM   #44 
   So you would have been a Loyalist at that time, just agreeing to pay the taxes?  treestar   Nov-02-09 01:15 PM   #91 
   not having been alive at the time, it's impossible to say.  dysfunctional press   Nov-02-09 01:35 PM   #102 
   Not wanting to pay their taxes *while* also not having political representation  JonQ   Nov-02-09 02:33 PM   #109 
      do you honestly consider yourself to have actual & fair representation in government today?  dysfunctional press   Nov-02-09 03:32 PM   #112 
         No, I don't  JonQ   Nov-02-09 05:35 PM   #126 
         "All the more reason to honor them."...tell that to the descendants of slaves at the time.  dysfunctional press   Nov-02-09 05:45 PM   #130 
            I trust your ancestors never did anything  JonQ   Nov-02-09 05:49 PM   #133 
            i'm 3/4 norwegian...  dysfunctional press   Nov-02-09 06:02 PM   #137 
               So anyone in history who has any faults  JonQ   Nov-02-09 06:31 PM   #142 
                  and people need to be reminded that everyone is/was human.  dysfunctional press   Nov-02-09 07:33 PM   #149 
                     Who calls them gods?  JonQ   Nov-03-09 09:42 AM   #153 
                        who said that anyone did?  dysfunctional press   Nov-03-09 11:17 AM   #154 
                           Um, you did  JonQ   Nov-03-09 11:41 AM   #155 
                              um...no, i didn't.  dysfunctional press   Nov-03-09 01:12 PM   #159 
                                 So that comparison you made then was  JonQ   Nov-03-09 01:45 PM   #162 
                                    c-o-m-p-r-e-h-e-n-s-i-o-n.  dysfunctional press   Nov-03-09 01:57 PM   #163 
                                       s-t-r-a-w-m-a-n  JonQ   Nov-03-09 02:14 PM   #164 
            They set the system that led to abolition  treestar   Nov-03-09 05:07 PM   #173 
               Wow, you're giving them credit for what better people did?  spoony   Nov-03-09 06:42 PM   #179 
                  The "better" people used their system  treestar   Nov-04-09 04:32 PM   #181 
         Well it was a lot less so then!  treestar   Nov-03-09 05:06 PM   #172 
   Maybe for the same reason that people here deify Dennis Kucinich. n/t  elocs   Nov-02-09 12:13 PM   #45 
   The apotheosis of Dennis Kucinich?  arcadian   Nov-02-09 12:25 PM   #51 
   But The Founding Fathers Were Actually, Like, Ya Know, Smart And Stuff.  OPERATIONMINDCRIME   Nov-02-09 01:05 PM   #79 
   *snap*  XemaSab   Nov-03-09 01:41 PM   #161 
   As you can see, even liberals have their irrational sacred cows.  spoony   Nov-02-09 12:16 PM   #48 
   People call on the dead for backup all the time  Sinti   Nov-02-09 12:28 PM   #54 
   Nation-states, like people, tend toward creation myths  Zomby Woof   Nov-02-09 12:59 PM   #74 
   Yes. The Constitution Is Silly.  OPERATIONMINDCRIME   Nov-02-09 01:02 PM   #75 
   Good Question. This country has had some Subsequent Fathers who have contributed...  Taverner   Nov-02-09 01:06 PM   #80 
   I don't think they are deified  treestar   Nov-02-09 01:10 PM   #83 
   Just human nature  Bert   Nov-02-09 01:20 PM   #93 
   They Were Brilliant People Who Took Huge Risks  NashVegas   Nov-02-09 01:43 PM   #103 
   In what way do you see them deified?  Bluenorthwest   Nov-02-09 02:07 PM   #107 
   here are some examples:  arcadian   Nov-02-09 05:19 PM   #124 
   I admire them.  proteus_lives   Nov-02-09 02:42 PM   #111 
   UNREC. Progressives believe in constitutional government &  philly_bob   Nov-02-09 05:43 PM   #129 
   Because the Founding Fathers are safely dead...  Orsino   Nov-02-09 07:33 PM   #148 
   Because the founders believed in evolution  Prism   Nov-03-09 12:42 PM   #157 
   Wow! Thanks for making Democrats look stupid.  ItNerd4life   Nov-03-09 02:25 PM   #165 
   Nice. Red-baiting! nt  spoony   Nov-03-09 05:11 PM   #176 
   They had some great ideas and some not so good ones. But at least Washington decided not to hoarde  Jennicut   Nov-03-09 03:08 PM   #168 
   Thomas Jefferson is a large part of the reason that we have a bill of rights  Hippo_Tron   Nov-03-09 03:24 PM   #170 
   I "deify" them because the set up a Secular Nation....  PassingFair   Nov-03-09 05:18 PM   #178 
   Because it's the only time you can say legitimately it's their country  Ter   Nov-04-09 04:58 PM   #182 
 

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