| 45. Maybe for the same reason that people here deify Dennis Kucinich. n/t |
| -Why do people deify of the 'Founding Fathers'? |
arcadian |
Nov-02-09 10:24 AM |
#0 |
 -
Careful There - The Founding Founders Are Some Of the Last Hope Many Of Us Have |
ProleNoMore |
Nov-02-09 10:26 AM |
#1 |
 -
Hate to break it to you, they are all dead and will not save you. |
tekisui |
Nov-02-09 10:27 AM |
#2 |
| -
No One Asked For Salvation, Just Inspiration And Wisdom |
ProleNoMore |
Nov-02-09 10:30 AM |
#7 |
| -
"No One Asked..." |
arcadian |
Nov-02-09 10:48 AM |
#26 |
 -
The One Would Be Me As Addressed By The Poster Responded To |
ProleNoMore |
Nov-02-09 11:00 AM |
#38 |
| -
From people who thought I shouldn't have the right to vote or own property? |
Critters2 |
Nov-02-09 11:46 AM |
#62 |
| -
Exactly. Their ideals are outdated and need to be reformed. |
Xenotime |
Nov-02-09 12:27 PM |
#98 |
| -
Which ideals need to be reformed? |
TwilightGardener |
Nov-02-09 03:48 PM |
#119 |
| -
Proportional representation in the Senate would be a great start. nt |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 04:57 PM |
#136 |
| -
What would that achieve? Beyond preventing less-populated states |
TwilightGardener |
Nov-02-09 05:20 PM |
#140 |
| -
It would achieve proportional representation in the Senate. |
Romulox |
Nov-03-09 02:02 PM |
#166 |
| -
How about just cutting their terms in half? nt |
anonymous171 |
Nov-02-09 05:38 PM |
#143 |
| -
Then a NEW guy from Iowa or South Dakota will hold us hostage. |
Romulox |
Nov-03-09 02:04 PM |
#167 |
| -
Hold us hostage from what? A bill allowing the bigger states to shit all over smaller ones? |
anonymous171 |
Nov-03-09 02:22 PM |
#169 |
| -
Pork laden farm bills, for example. |
Romulox |
Nov-04-09 09:18 AM |
#180 |
| -
Thank you. |
arcadian |
Nov-02-09 10:31 AM |
#9 |
| -
Our founders devised a hideously broken political system |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 10:27 AM |
#3 |
| -
They designed a political system that suits the interest of their class. |
JVS |
Nov-02-09 10:29 AM |
#6 |
| -
And it has withstood the test of time. |
tekisui |
Nov-02-09 10:32 AM |
#10 |
| -
Very perceptive. Agree 100%. nt |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 10:34 AM |
#13 |
| -
Not true |
treestar |
Nov-02-09 12:18 PM |
#92 |
| -
The creation of this country as a constitutional republic was wholly an experiment. |
no_hypocrisy |
Nov-02-09 10:36 AM |
#14 |
| -
An experiment in *what* exactly? An experiment in plutocracy |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 10:39 AM |
#16 |
| -
An experiment in creating a country from a colony, a country with |
no_hypocrisy |
Nov-02-09 10:44 AM |
#21 |
| -
I'm pretty sure the US wasn't the first colony-turned-slaveholder's paradise... |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 10:45 AM |
#23 |
| -
That's funny, I thought they used the Greek and Roman model. |
arcadian |
Nov-02-09 10:44 AM |
#22 |
| -
More Roman than Greek |
AllentownJake |
Nov-02-09 10:50 AM |
#28 |
| -
So why do they call the architecture of the 1820's--1860's "Greek Revival"? |
TwilightGardener |
Nov-02-09 11:50 AM |
#67 |
| -
The Romans stole from the Greeks |
AllentownJake |
Nov-02-09 11:52 AM |
#68 |
| -
Sorry, I'm pretty sure the bulk of inspiration came from an admiration |
TwilightGardener |
Nov-02-09 11:59 AM |
#72 |
| -
Our legal structure is more Roman than Greek |
AllentownJake |
Nov-02-09 12:04 PM |
#78 |
| -
But you're missing my point--the origin of Greek Revival architecture was |
TwilightGardener |
Nov-02-09 12:09 PM |
#82 |
| -
Greece is the foundation of all Western Culture |
AllentownJake |
Nov-02-09 12:21 PM |
#95 |
| -
It was done before |
AllentownJake |
Nov-02-09 10:49 AM |
#27 |
| -
It was done far more recently than that. Parliament had been around since 1707 |
JVS |
Nov-02-09 12:43 PM |
#104 |
| -
True our founders beef was more that they couldn't |
AllentownJake |
Nov-02-09 12:45 PM |
#105 |
| -
They understood the injustice of aristocracy and plutocracy |
dhpgetsit |
Nov-02-09 10:40 AM |
#18 |
| -
Then why did they ensconce them into law? (Not to mention slavery). |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 10:56 AM |
#33 |
| -
Slavery |
cark |
Nov-02-09 11:48 AM |
# |
| -
An absolute nonsense. The constitution did not "need" to be ratified to include slavery. |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 11:52 AM |
#69 |
| -
If you knew anything about history |
cark |
Nov-02-09 12:32 PM |
#101 |
| -
On the contrary, I know there was a robust Abolitionist movement in the late 18th century |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 03:32 PM |
#116 |
| -
You completely ignore reality |
cark |
Nov-02-09 04:39 PM |
#127 |
| -
Well they could've chosen not to...own...slaves. No? |
spoony |
Nov-02-09 04:46 PM |
#131 |
| -
Reality Check - Fantasy Land doesn't exist |
cark |
Nov-02-09 05:09 PM |
#138 |
| -
Lol, wow |
spoony |
Nov-02-09 05:21 PM |
#141 |
| -
Ease up, pal! |
dhpgetsit |
Nov-02-09 08:25 PM |
#151 |
| -
What is intellect without integrity? |
spoony |
Nov-03-09 11:10 AM |
#156 |
| -
Jefferson and others believed slavery would be abandoned before long. |
dhpgetsit |
Nov-02-09 08:55 PM |
#152 |
| -
Yeah....that foundation was the backs of slaves. |
marmar |
Nov-02-09 10:59 AM |
#36 |
| -
Then why the fuck are you here? |
cliffordu |
Nov-02-09 11:17 AM |
#49 |
| -
"Love it or leave it" is an idiotic sentiment. nt |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 11:25 AM |
#53 |
| -
So is haunting a board that is ostensibly for people who |
cliffordu |
Nov-02-09 11:30 AM |
#56 |
| -
I didn't think it was possible, but this post is stupider than the last. |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 11:35 AM |
#58 |
| -
Well, there ya go then. |
cliffordu |
Nov-02-09 11:39 AM |
#60 |
| -
You don't *realy* believe that "love it or leave it...ya got no purpose" is a conversation starter |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 11:42 AM |
#61 |
| -
After you shared your little beliefs about the founders and what they created, I just had to ask. |
cliffordu |
Nov-02-09 11:47 AM |
#63 |
| -
Your argument would make a Freeper blush. It's pathetic. nt |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 11:49 AM |
#66 |
| -
I think pathetic is a nice word and coming from you I think I'll wear it |
cliffordu |
Nov-02-09 11:54 AM |
#70 |
| -
Just retreat to General Discussion: Status Quo. You paens to blind patriotism will play well there |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 11:56 AM |
#71 |
| -
WELL....... |
cliffordu |
Nov-02-09 11:59 AM |
#73 |
| -
Syntax? Grammar? Logic? ABORT! ABORT! nt |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 12:02 PM |
#76 |
| -
You didn't answer the question |
treestar |
Nov-02-09 12:14 PM |
#88 |
| -
I'm not engaging in any "dialogue" that begins with the proposition "love it or leave it" |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 03:00 PM |
#113 |
| -
The dialogue here began with "this post is stupider than the last." |
treestar |
Nov-03-09 04:09 PM |
#174 |
| -
No More Idiotic Than Your Own. |
OPERATIONMINDCRIME |
Nov-02-09 12:02 PM |
#77 |
| -
Ut oh. This thread is about to get all Intellecshual up in here! |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 12:10 PM |
#84 |
| -
Nope. Nothing Could Save This Thread. |
OPERATIONMINDCRIME |
Nov-02-09 12:14 PM |
#87 |
| -
Yep. DOA. |
cliffordu |
Nov-02-09 12:15 PM |
#90 |
| -
wow, it's truly bizarre you get this angry. I thought this was |
jonnyblitz |
Nov-02-09 11:48 AM |
#64 |
| -
"Love it or leave it" is a logical fallacy called false dichotomy. |
ZombieHorde |
Nov-02-09 12:15 PM |
#89 |
| -
And yet the walking stupor I responded to has regaled us with no such plans |
cliffordu |
Nov-02-09 12:29 PM |
#99 |
| -
Says the fellow who began the exchange with "love or leave it,"...and MEANT it! |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 03:15 PM |
#114 |
| -
And what did you begin your droolfest with?? |
cliffordu |
Nov-02-09 04:55 PM |
#134 |
| -
Grow up. |
spoony |
Nov-02-09 12:24 PM |
#96 |
| -
Well....... |
cliffordu |
Nov-02-09 12:30 PM |
#100 |
| -
The slavery was already there |
treestar |
Nov-02-09 12:11 PM |
#85 |
| -
Please don't bring actual historical fact into this, please. The haters will just |
cliffordu |
Nov-02-09 12:13 PM |
#86 |
| -
Fair point, but absolutely NO EXCUSE for enshrining in our Constitution. |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 03:21 PM |
#115 |
| -
So...our system of government and our Constitution are forever |
TwilightGardener |
Nov-02-09 03:45 PM |
#117 |
| -
Our nation is forever stained by slavery. Does anyone argue otherwise? |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 03:52 PM |
#120 |
| -
What does the stain of a practice that was abolished |
TwilightGardener |
Nov-02-09 04:32 PM |
#125 |
| -
It reflects upon the authors of that wretched "compromise" and their alleged "brilliance". |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 04:39 PM |
#128 |
| -
You said our system of government was "hideously broken". When asked why, you point |
TwilightGardener |
Nov-02-09 04:49 PM |
#132 |
| -
You're conflating two distinct arguments |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 04:56 PM |
#135 |
| -
I'm not conflating anything. I'm quoting you. You said our system |
TwilightGardener |
Nov-02-09 05:10 PM |
#139 |
| -
Humanity is stained by slavery. nt |
anonymous171 |
Nov-02-09 06:05 PM |
#144 |
| -
Well, you weren't there |
treestar |
Nov-03-09 04:11 PM |
#175 |
| -
They didn't even put universal health care in the constitution... |
hughee99 |
Nov-02-09 06:17 PM |
#145 |
| -
Our Founders Devised A Great System |
cark |
Nov-03-09 02:28 PM |
#171 |
| -
Because they are dumb fucks. |
JVS |
Nov-02-09 10:28 AM |
#4 |
| -
They usually do it because they're demagoguing some point. |
TexasObserver |
Nov-02-09 10:28 AM |
#5 |
| -
The Founding Fathers were geniuses |
Nye Bevan |
Nov-02-09 10:31 AM |
#8 |
| -
+infinity |
joeybee12 |
Nov-02-09 10:34 AM |
#12 |
| -
"+infinity"? Really? |
arcadian |
Nov-02-09 10:41 AM |
#19 |
| -
Yeah, but that was only about 4 months ago, wasn't it? |
joeybee12 |
Nov-02-09 10:52 AM |
#31 |
| -
Is this guy for real? |
arcadian |
Nov-02-09 11:14 AM |
#46 |
| -
Careful, you're about to get hit with |
spoony |
Nov-02-09 12:25 PM |
#97 |
| -
Are you familiar with the 30 odd ammendments to their "brilliant" document, |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 10:37 AM |
#15 |
| -
Part of the brilliance of their achievement |
Nye Bevan |
Nov-02-09 10:41 AM |
#20 |
| -
Isn't that a neat bit of circular logic! |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 10:48 AM |
#25 |
| -
I never said it wasn't brilliant |
Nye Bevan |
Nov-02-09 10:56 AM |
#34 |
| -
Any document that enshrines slavery and rule by landed gentry is not "brilliant" |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 10:59 AM |
#35 |
| -
That was the Dred Scott Decision by the Taney Supreme Court which occurred in 1857, |
Uncle Joe |
Nov-02-09 04:09 PM |
#123 |
| -
It built the amendment system in |
treestar |
Nov-02-09 12:08 PM |
#81 |
| -
You can't be arguing that there is any process under the US Constitution |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 03:48 PM |
#118 |
| -
Yes there is |
treestar |
Nov-03-09 04:15 PM |
#177 |
| -
You've accidentally stumbled upon a truth |
spoony |
Nov-02-09 03:54 PM |
#121 |
| -
A little creative counting |
zipplewrath |
Nov-02-09 11:05 AM |
#41 |
| -
That's more than a "little" creative accounting you've done there! |
Romulox |
Nov-02-09 11:12 AM |
#43 |
| -
well, it is to serve the point |
zipplewrath |
Nov-02-09 06:30 PM |
#147 |
| -
At the time of the original Star Trek, the Klingons were the enemy |
XemaSab |
Nov-03-09 12:13 PM |
#160 |
| -
wish I could rec a reply (yours) instead of an OP |
abq e streeter |
Nov-02-09 10:39 AM |
#17 |
| -
They were both brilliant and brave |
Phoebe Loosinhouse |
Nov-02-09 10:55 AM |
#32 |
| -
Thanks, but I'd like universal health care and effective gun control. |
Critters2 |
Nov-02-09 11:48 AM |
#65 |
| -
People use the Bible to prevent my family from having |
Bluenorthwest |
Nov-02-09 12:46 PM |
#106 |
| -
You have no idea what you're talking about. |
spoony |
Nov-02-09 04:01 PM |
#122 |
| -
I do not preach your oppression. I celebrate your family, |
Critters2 |
Nov-02-09 08:17 PM |
#150 |
| -
Healthcare would be nice. Gun control would be stupid. nt |
anonymous171 |
Nov-02-09 06:30 PM |
#146 |
| -
Then these "genuises" constructed a constitution with no mention of individual rights. |
TexasObserver |
Nov-03-09 11:52 AM |
#158 |
| -
They were a remarkably brilliant |
JonQ |
Nov-02-09 10:33 AM |
#11 |
| -
Why did Rome deify Caesar? Why did Egypt deify the Pharoh? |
AllentownJake |
Nov-02-09 10:47 AM |
#24 |
| -
They are our Remus and Romulus. The necessary myth, for national pride. |
Gman2 |
Nov-02-09 10:51 AM |
#29 |
| -
It sounds like your paper was a masterpiece. |
Nye Bevan |
Nov-02-09 11:01 AM |
#39 |
| -
The first line was, Well not really but! |
Gman2 |
Nov-02-09 11:25 AM |
#52 |
| -
They even created our own Goddess, Columbia (Liberty). |
Greyhound |
Nov-02-09 01:34 PM |
#110 |
| -
I had one wise history teacher through all of public school |
Warpy |
Nov-02-09 10:52 AM |
#30 |
| -
"...who gave us a much better form of government than we probably deserved." |
dysfunctional press |
Nov-02-09 11:15 AM |
#47 |
| -
That they were a bunch of self serving businessmen |
Warpy |
Nov-02-09 11:21 AM |
#50 |
| -
actually, i was more interested in the "than we deserved" part... |
dysfunctional press |
Nov-02-09 11:28 AM |
#55 |
| -
Self serving businessmen and landowners |
Warpy |
Nov-02-09 11:33 AM |
#57 |
| -
shouldn't she have said better than THEY deserved? |
dysfunctional press |
Nov-02-09 11:37 AM |
#59 |
| -
Strange post. You're giving them no credit for the bill of rights |
treestar |
Nov-02-09 12:20 PM |
#94 |
| -
I'm giving them all the credit in the world |
Warpy |
Nov-02-09 01:07 PM |
#108 |
| -
Edit. Forget it. |
Iggo |
Nov-02-09 11:00 AM |
#37 |
| -
That thread title could use some work. |
Vickers |
Nov-02-09 11:01 AM |
#40 |
| -
Gee, (looks around) what can I lash out at today? |
cherokeeprogressive |
Nov-02-09 11:06 AM |
#42 |
| -
mostly rich white guys who didn't want to pay their taxes. |
dysfunctional press |
Nov-02-09 11:13 AM |
#44 |
| -
So you would have been a Loyalist at that time, just agreeing to pay the taxes? |
treestar |
Nov-02-09 12:15 PM |
#91 |
| -
not having been alive at the time, it's impossible to say. |
dysfunctional press |
Nov-02-09 12:35 PM |
#102 |
| -
Not wanting to pay their taxes *while* also not having political representation |
JonQ |
Nov-02-09 01:33 PM |
#109 |
| -
do you honestly consider yourself to have actual & fair representation in government today? |
dysfunctional press |
Nov-02-09 02:32 PM |
#112 |
| -
No, I don't |
JonQ |
Nov-02-09 04:35 PM |
#126 |
| -
"All the more reason to honor them."...tell that to the descendants of slaves at the time. |
dysfunctional press |
Nov-02-09 04:45 PM |
#130 |
| -
I trust your ancestors never did anything |
JonQ |
Nov-02-09 04:49 PM |
#133 |
| -
i'm 3/4 norwegian... |
dysfunctional press |
Nov-02-09 05:02 PM |
#137 |
| -
So anyone in history who has any faults |
JonQ |
Nov-02-09 05:31 PM |
#142 |
| -
and people need to be reminded that everyone is/was human. |
dysfunctional press |
Nov-02-09 06:33 PM |
#149 |
| -
Who calls them gods? |
JonQ |
Nov-03-09 08:42 AM |
#153 |
| -
who said that anyone did? |
dysfunctional press |
Nov-03-09 10:17 AM |
#154 |
| -
Um, you did |
JonQ |
Nov-03-09 10:41 AM |
#155 |
| -
um...no, i didn't. |
dysfunctional press |
Nov-03-09 12:12 PM |
#159 |
| -
So that comparison you made then was |
JonQ |
Nov-03-09 12:45 PM |
#162 |
| -
c-o-m-p-r-e-h-e-n-s-i-o-n. |
dysfunctional press |
Nov-03-09 12:57 PM |
#163 |
| -
s-t-r-a-w-m-a-n |
JonQ |
Nov-03-09 01:14 PM |
#164 |
| -
They set the system that led to abolition |
treestar |
Nov-03-09 04:07 PM |
#173 |
| -
Wow, you're giving them credit for what better people did? |
spoony |
Nov-03-09 05:42 PM |
#179 |
| -
The "better" people used their system |
treestar |
Nov-04-09 03:32 PM |
#181 |
| -
Well it was a lot less so then! |
treestar |
Nov-03-09 04:06 PM |
#172 |
| -
Maybe for the same reason that people here deify Dennis Kucinich. n/t |
elocs |
Nov-02-09 11:13 AM |
#45 |
| -
The apotheosis of Dennis Kucinich? |
arcadian |
Nov-02-09 11:25 AM |
#51 |
| -
But The Founding Fathers Were Actually, Like, Ya Know, Smart And Stuff. |
OPERATIONMINDCRIME |
Nov-02-09 12:05 PM |
#79 |
| -
*snap* |
XemaSab |
Nov-03-09 12:41 PM |
#161 |
| -
As you can see, even liberals have their irrational sacred cows. |
spoony |
Nov-02-09 11:16 AM |
#48 |
| -
People call on the dead for backup all the time |
Sinti |
Nov-02-09 11:28 AM |
#54 |
| -
Nation-states, like people, tend toward creation myths |
Zomby Woof |
Nov-02-09 11:59 AM |
#74 |
| -
Yes. The Constitution Is Silly. |
OPERATIONMINDCRIME |
Nov-02-09 12:02 PM |
#75 |
| -
Good Question. This country has had some Subsequent Fathers who have contributed... |
Taverner |
Nov-02-09 12:06 PM |
#80 |
| -
I don't think they are deified |
treestar |
Nov-02-09 12:10 PM |
#83 |
| -
Just human nature |
Bert |
Nov-02-09 12:20 PM |
#93 |
| -
They Were Brilliant People Who Took Huge Risks |
NashVegas |
Nov-02-09 12:43 PM |
#103 |
| -
In what way do you see them deified? |
Bluenorthwest |
Nov-02-09 01:07 PM |
#107 |
| -
here are some examples: |
arcadian |
Nov-02-09 04:19 PM |
#124 |
| -
I admire them. |
proteus_lives |
Nov-02-09 01:42 PM |
#111 |
| -
UNREC. Progressives believe in constitutional government & |
philly_bob |
Nov-02-09 04:43 PM |
#129 |
| -
Because the Founding Fathers are safely dead... |
Orsino |
Nov-02-09 06:33 PM |
#148 |
| -
Because the founders believed in evolution |
Prism |
Nov-03-09 11:42 AM |
#157 |
| -
Wow! Thanks for making Democrats look stupid. |
ItNerd4life |
Nov-03-09 01:25 PM |
#165 |
| -
Nice. Red-baiting! nt |
spoony |
Nov-03-09 04:11 PM |
#176 |
| -
They had some great ideas and some not so good ones. But at least Washington decided not to hoarde |
Jennicut |
Nov-03-09 02:08 PM |
#168 |
| -
Thomas Jefferson is a large part of the reason that we have a bill of rights |
Hippo_Tron |
Nov-03-09 02:24 PM |
#170 |
| -
I "deify" them because the set up a Secular Nation.... |
PassingFair |
Nov-03-09 04:18 PM |
#178 |
| -
Because it's the only time you can say legitimately it's their country |
Ter |
Nov-04-09 03:58 PM |
#182 |
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