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Reply #94: the way the question was worded [View All]

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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Donate to DU! Sun Oct-18-09 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #77
94. the way the question was worded
i still say no. if the question had been "are you a responsible citizen?" i would have said yes. worded as it is, "responsible for the deaths caused by these wars" - i cannot unlink that statement from guilt. my daughter was killed, and the person who was "responsible" for her death was and remains guilty indeed.

i might have responded that i am responsible in this context if i had voted for gw and supported the wars but i never did, ever. i am responsible in the sense that being part of a government of, for, and by the people means we all have a responsibility to vote and to the extent we are able, to engage in the workings of that democracy. but i'm not sure that is even a matter of opinion.

you say my doing what i can "makes a HUGE difference." i only wish! i only wish.

when i was still living in CA i went into the CYA to teach victim impact classes to youthful offenders. that's not cover your ass, it's the California Youth Authority, and the people with whom i interacted were guilty of the most egregious crimes. most of them were gang members. at least there i could look into their eyes and with some of them see that there was still a spark of humanity within them, that possibly i could reach. that possibly somewhere down the line, there would be one less victim because of the work i had done. that was satisfying.

but these days, and with these wars, nothing i do seems to make a single whit of difference. i am astonished to note that this has been going on for over eight years! i have to make a living and i'm tired. i keep writing and i keep calling and i keep signing petitions but it seems as if the only people who can get in the same room with the people who are making the decisions are the bankers, the MIC, and the corporate lobbyists. (people guilty of the most egregious crimes imo)

i do strive to stay engaged in spite of this nearly hopeless perception i have. i feel anguished because these wars our country won't quit remind me so much of vietnam and iirc, popular sentiment against the war did not rise until some 30,000 americans had died over there. then finally the people took to the streets and the lawmakers understood that they had to end it, and the number of american dead still almost doubled before they finally did. will it take 50 to 60 thousand american dead to stop these senseless wars? i'm afraid that it may. at this point i feel responsible enough to do eveything in my power to ensure that my son and grandchildren don't end up among the dead.

that's not even touching on the innocents whose lives are destroyed or ended in foreign countries because of the aggression of the US. nor on the maimed and injured americans, nor on those whose psyches have and will sustain irreparable damage, effectively ruining their chances for a happy and fulfilled life.

i guess it boils down to semantics, and my saying "no" absolves me of nothing. i can say that when the people finally do get together to change the status quo i will then know i have done my part. i knew bush would throw a war before he ever took office, and have been steadfastly and vocally against the wars to this day. eventually i suppose the losses will rise to numbers higher than the majority of americans will countenance, and finally these travesties will end. no telling what happens then. no way to really affect it either. at least that's how it feels.
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  Are you responsible for deaths that result from America's interventions overseas? sl8  Oct-17-09 09:06 PM   #0 
   Depends.  chrisa   Oct-17-09 09:10 PM   #1 
   Thanks for elaborating. n/t  sl8   Oct-17-09 09:17 PM   #2 
   The way i look at it, we are like the Germans under Hitler  Liberation Angel   Oct-17-09 09:19 PM   #3 
   Are you calling for an armed resistance of the Obama Admins policies?  Fire_Medic_Dave   Oct-17-09 09:25 PM   #6 
   what a thoroughly idiotic comment.  inna   Oct-17-09 09:59 PM   #23 
   Since you can't tell the difference between a comment and a question, we know who the idiot is.  Fire_Medic_Dave   Oct-17-09 11:44 PM   #38 
   Your question WAS a comment, and it was transparent, so who's the idiot?  Liberation Angel   Oct-18-09 12:27 PM   #74 
      The person who assumed the question was a comment.  Fire_Medic_Dave   Oct-18-09 01:33 PM   #88 
   Well, I was a little ambiguous about what sort of resistance _ I have clarified below  Liberation Angel   Oct-18-09 11:52 AM   #65 
      Thanks for clarifying.  Fire_Medic_Dave   Oct-18-09 01:33 PM   #87 
   I'll chime in.  asdjrocky   Oct-18-09 11:04 AM   #59 
   How surprising, complex thought still eludes you.  Fire_Medic_Dave   Oct-18-09 01:45 PM   #92 
      I don't think there can be absolute absolution if that is what you mean  Liberation Angel   Oct-18-09 02:38 PM   #98 
         I appreciate your answer and respect your opinion.  Fire_Medic_Dave   Oct-18-09 03:27 PM   #101 
   I am a pacifist: so i am saying Satyagraha is what is required: Nonviolent resistance: BUT...  Liberation Angel   Oct-18-09 11:38 AM   #64 
   Interesting.  sl8   Oct-17-09 09:35 PM   #10 
      I have marched with IVAW and my answer is still: we ARE personally responsible  Liberation Angel   Oct-18-09 11:30 AM   #60 
         As a pacifist and a CO, I  tomg   Oct-18-09 04:18 PM   #105 
   Yes, I worked for blackwater.  951-Riverside   Oct-17-09 09:20 PM   #4 
   Shall I take that as a "no"?  sl8   Oct-17-09 09:43 PM   #13 
      Gradations of responsibility. Primo Levy in "Survival in Auschwitz" discusses "gradations"  Liberation Angel   Oct-18-09 01:35 PM   #89 
   Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Oct-17-09 09:22 PM   #5 
   There are things, extreme things, that could be done to end my responsibility.  patrice   Oct-17-09 09:29 PM   #7 
   Thanks for the elaboration.  sl8   Oct-17-09 09:45 PM   #14 
   I never supported the war. From the very first rumors, I have been and still am  patrice   Oct-17-09 11:22 PM   #33 
   Great point. Those are the only two things that could  ecstatic   Oct-18-09 11:33 AM   #63 
   I agree BUT here's the thing  Liberation Angel   Oct-18-09 11:59 AM   #66 
   People on this board  Libertas1776   Oct-17-09 09:29 PM   #8 
   I wrestled with that issue and came to different conclusions....  mike_c   Oct-17-09 09:39 PM   #11 
   Your parents really did a number on you.  Fire_Medic_Dave   Oct-17-09 09:56 PM   #18 
      Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-17-09 10:02 PM   #24 
      You don't believe that such responsibilities can be freely chosen?  patrice   Oct-17-09 11:38 PM   #35 
         You can choose to feel guilty about anything you want.  Fire_Medic_Dave   Oct-17-09 11:43 PM   #36 
            There's a difference between guilt and responsibility.  patrice   Oct-17-09 11:58 PM   #39 
            I missed where I said it doesn't matter.  Fire_Medic_Dave   Oct-18-09 12:32 AM   #43 
               My apologies for the implication. I was just making that point explicit.  patrice   Oct-18-09 12:40 AM   #45 
                  No worries.  Fire_Medic_Dave   Oct-18-09 01:42 PM   #91 
            P.S. It isn't about wanting to feel that way. It's about the facts.  patrice   Oct-18-09 12:05 AM   #40 
               So anyone who disagrees with your opinion is a liar?  Fire_Medic_Dave   Oct-18-09 12:33 AM   #44 
                  Facts are not opinions. It is not my opinion that "we" have unnecessarily killed and helped to kill  patrice   Oct-18-09 12:42 AM   #46 
                     So someone can't know the facts and not feel personally responsible?  Fire_Medic_Dave   Oct-18-09 01:36 PM   #90 
   Thanks for the reply. n/t  sl8   Oct-17-09 09:53 PM   #17 
   Saying we're personally responsible for that is like saying those of us who like to drink alcohol  cherokeeprogressive   Oct-18-09 12:07 AM   #41 
   It isn't about whether you can stop drunks from injuring or killing others, or stop  patrice   Oct-18-09 12:25 AM   #42 
   I VOTE.  cherokeeprogressive   Oct-18-09 12:58 AM   #47 
      2000, 2004 & the battle to reform Health Care/Insurance didn't reveal to you what "your" vote is?  patrice   Oct-18-09 01:03 AM   #49 
         MY vote is what I mark on the paper.  cherokeeprogressive   Oct-18-09 01:06 AM   #50 
            You mark on the paper what the corporate hegemony LETS you mark on the paper and then  patrice   Oct-18-09 01:09 AM   #51 
               That may be what happens in YOUR county...  cherokeeprogressive   Oct-18-09 01:25 AM   #53 
                  So, you're okay with how campaigns are financed AND the election wasn't stolen in 2000  patrice   Oct-18-09 01:33 AM   #54 
                     Your issue should be with the people in Ohio counties who dropped the ball, or were dishonest  cherokeeprogressive   Oct-18-09 01:40 AM   #55 
                        Thank you for caring and thanks for the effort, but what happens is about much more than the vote.  patrice   Oct-18-09 01:50 AM   #56 
   No - its like saying you gave the booze to a drunk driver or teenager  Liberation Angel   Oct-18-09 12:14 PM   #72 
   Do you buy gasoline? Pay taxes? If so then you are providing the resources for these deaths  Liberation Angel   Oct-18-09 12:05 PM   #69 
   We are complicit if we do not nonviolently resist via Satyagraha or other means:  Liberation Angel   Oct-18-09 12:05 PM   #70 
   recommended....  mike_c   Oct-17-09 09:29 PM   #9 
   Really - the fact that there are only SIX recommends (unrecs have buried this)  Liberation Angel   Oct-18-09 12:03 PM   #67 
   Nope. nt  anonymous171   Oct-17-09 09:40 PM   #12 
   Yes. That's why it is my duty to speak out consistently against them.  TexasObserver   Oct-17-09 09:49 PM   #15 
   Thanks for the response. n/t  sl8   Oct-17-09 09:58 PM   #19 
   that's right  barbtries   Oct-17-09 10:04 PM   #25 
      There's a difference between "feeling" that we are responsible and feeling guilty.  Liberation Angel   Oct-18-09 12:57 PM   #77 
         the way the question was worded  barbtries   Oct-18-09 01:51 PM   #94 
            You are not alone BUT: recognizing this feeling makes a HUGE difference  Liberation Angel   Oct-18-09 02:17 PM   #96 
               "weary and teary"  barbtries   Oct-18-09 03:37 PM   #102 
   The citizens of a nation can be held accountable for the acts of that nation to the degree...  imdjh   Oct-17-09 09:51 PM   #16 
   Thanks for the response. n/t  sl8   Oct-17-09 09:58 PM   #20 
   What about the citizens OF that nation? WE can hold ourselves accountable!  Liberation Angel   Oct-18-09 12:46 PM   #75 
   i said no  barbtries   Oct-17-09 09:58 PM   #21 
   Thanks for the reply. n/t  sl8   Oct-17-09 09:59 PM   #22 
   An illegal invasion and occupation  malaise   Oct-17-09 10:08 PM   #26 
   I'm not sure that I understand your objection.  sl8   Oct-17-09 10:16 PM   #27 
   Other: No  Fla_Democrat   Oct-17-09 10:34 PM   #28 
   I think the real question is whether we benefit economically  starroute   Oct-17-09 10:47 PM   #29 
   Just "no". n/t  elocs   Oct-17-09 10:57 PM   #30 
   I've done my best to throw the defiler fucks out of office and don't subscribe to white guilt  dusmcj   Oct-17-09 11:03 PM   #31 
   Not sure that I'm responsible, but I'm damned sure  madamesilverspurs   Oct-17-09 11:18 PM   #32 
   Cindy Sheehan is doing it, she says (see post #95  Liberation Angel   Oct-18-09 02:43 PM   #99 
   With a stolen election? or two? No way .  exman   Oct-17-09 11:33 PM   #34 
   Belated Welcome to DU!  Strong Atheist   Oct-18-09 11:02 AM   #58 
   In the end, we are. n/t  Greyhound   Oct-17-09 11:43 PM   #37 
   End of the week? End of the month? End of the year? Decade? Century?  cherokeeprogressive   Oct-18-09 12:59 AM   #48 
      Until the end of the war, we are...  Liberation Angel   Oct-18-09 01:28 PM   #84 
      The end of the accounting.. We are the government, the fact that we've  Greyhound   Oct-18-09 06:46 PM   #106 
   I have been outspoken from the get-go about apposing these wars.  winyanstaz   Oct-18-09 01:11 AM   #52 
   Nope.  Kickin_Donkey   Oct-18-09 02:25 AM   #57 
   And the torture.  asdjrocky   Oct-18-09 11:31 AM   #61 
   Of course we are. Even if we did not vote for the person doing it  ecstatic   Oct-18-09 11:32 AM   #62 
   A sense of responsibility is what makes you a Citizen.  annabanana   Oct-18-09 12:04 PM   #68 
   A friend of mine died in Iraq  JonLP24   Oct-18-09 12:09 PM   #71 
   That is very sad ... and I am sorry  Liberation Angel   Oct-18-09 01:21 PM   #80 
      I understand  JonLP24   Oct-18-09 01:30 PM   #85 
         That really brings home the senselessness of it all. I marched with IVAW in Denver...  Liberation Angel   Oct-18-09 01:48 PM   #93 
   No. I have almost no input into such decisions. Blame the rulers.  JVS   Oct-18-09 12:15 PM   #73 
   Do you input you tax dollars? Drive? Do you protest? Are we like Germans in 1938? 1933?  Liberation Angel   Oct-18-09 12:49 PM   #76 
      I refuse to take responsibility when my input is being put in a box every other November...  JVS   Oct-18-09 01:16 PM   #78 
      So I guess I have to ask:  Liberation Angel   Oct-18-09 01:17 PM   #79 
         If my lack of repsonsibility for the wars makes me a 1938 German, does presiding over ...  JVS   Oct-18-09 01:22 PM   #81 
            No because...  Liberation Angel   Oct-18-09 02:24 PM   #97 
      Re: Germany 1932  SOS   Oct-18-09 03:24 PM   #100 
         If this is a nonviolent fight, then I am on board, But...  Liberation Angel   Oct-18-09 03:47 PM   #103 
   Surprising to see only 6 recs on this thread: this is an important question.  Liberation Angel   Oct-18-09 01:24 PM   #82 
   Even if you think you aren't responsible you are.  Warren Stupidity   Oct-18-09 01:25 PM   #83 
   Until we have a better understanding of the causes of war, I'm not ready to say  Hippo_Tron   Oct-18-09 01:30 PM   #86 
   cui bono? the defense contractors and war materiel providers....  create.peace   Oct-19-09 04:51 AM   #108 
   A Message from Cindy Sheehan ....  Liberation Angel   Oct-18-09 01:59 PM   #95 
   No, that would be ridiculous.  LostInAnomie   Oct-18-09 03:58 PM   #104 
   Yes, but not for the reason you have in your poll  NeedleCast   Oct-18-09 06:52 PM   #107 
      you seem pretty angry on your blog, though, just sayin'...nt  create.peace   Oct-19-09 04:56 AM   #109 
 

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