barbtries
(1000+ posts)
|
Sun Oct-18-09 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #77 |
| 94. the way the question was worded |
 |
i still say no. if the question had been "are you a responsible citizen?" i would have said yes. worded as it is, "responsible for the deaths caused by these wars" - i cannot unlink that statement from guilt. my daughter was killed, and the person who was "responsible" for her death was and remains guilty indeed.
i might have responded that i am responsible in this context if i had voted for gw and supported the wars but i never did, ever. i am responsible in the sense that being part of a government of, for, and by the people means we all have a responsibility to vote and to the extent we are able, to engage in the workings of that democracy. but i'm not sure that is even a matter of opinion.
you say my doing what i can "makes a HUGE difference." i only wish! i only wish.
when i was still living in CA i went into the CYA to teach victim impact classes to youthful offenders. that's not cover your ass, it's the California Youth Authority, and the people with whom i interacted were guilty of the most egregious crimes. most of them were gang members. at least there i could look into their eyes and with some of them see that there was still a spark of humanity within them, that possibly i could reach. that possibly somewhere down the line, there would be one less victim because of the work i had done. that was satisfying.
but these days, and with these wars, nothing i do seems to make a single whit of difference. i am astonished to note that this has been going on for over eight years! i have to make a living and i'm tired. i keep writing and i keep calling and i keep signing petitions but it seems as if the only people who can get in the same room with the people who are making the decisions are the bankers, the MIC, and the corporate lobbyists. (people guilty of the most egregious crimes imo)
i do strive to stay engaged in spite of this nearly hopeless perception i have. i feel anguished because these wars our country won't quit remind me so much of vietnam and iirc, popular sentiment against the war did not rise until some 30,000 americans had died over there. then finally the people took to the streets and the lawmakers understood that they had to end it, and the number of american dead still almost doubled before they finally did. will it take 50 to 60 thousand american dead to stop these senseless wars? i'm afraid that it may. at this point i feel responsible enough to do eveything in my power to ensure that my son and grandchildren don't end up among the dead.
that's not even touching on the innocents whose lives are destroyed or ended in foreign countries because of the aggression of the US. nor on the maimed and injured americans, nor on those whose psyches have and will sustain irreparable damage, effectively ruining their chances for a happy and fulfilled life.
i guess it boils down to semantics, and my saying "no" absolves me of nothing. i can say that when the people finally do get together to change the status quo i will then know i have done my part. i knew bush would throw a war before he ever took office, and have been steadfastly and vocally against the wars to this day. eventually i suppose the losses will rise to numbers higher than the majority of americans will countenance, and finally these travesties will end. no telling what happens then. no way to really affect it either. at least that's how it feels.
|
Are you responsible for deaths that result from America's interventions overseas? |
sl8 |
Oct-17-09 09:06 PM |
#0 |

Depends. |
chrisa |
Oct-17-09 09:10 PM |
#1 |
 
Thanks for elaborating. n/t |
sl8 |
Oct-17-09 09:17 PM |
#2 |

The way i look at it, we are like the Germans under Hitler |
Liberation Angel |
Oct-17-09 09:19 PM |
#3 |
 
Are you calling for an armed resistance of the Obama Admins policies? |
Fire_Medic_Dave |
Oct-17-09 09:25 PM |
#6 |
  
what a thoroughly idiotic comment. |
inna |
Oct-17-09 09:59 PM |
#23 |
   
Since you can't tell the difference between a comment and a question, we know who the idiot is. |
Fire_Medic_Dave |
Oct-17-09 11:44 PM |
#38 |
    
Your question WAS a comment, and it was transparent, so who's the idiot? |
Liberation Angel |
Oct-18-09 12:27 PM |
#74 |
   
The person who assumed the question was a comment. |
Fire_Medic_Dave |
Oct-18-09 01:33 PM |
#88 |
   
Well, I was a little ambiguous about what sort of resistance _ I have clarified below |
Liberation Angel |
Oct-18-09 11:52 AM |
#65 |
  
Thanks for clarifying. |
Fire_Medic_Dave |
Oct-18-09 01:33 PM |
#87 |
  
I'll chime in. |
asdjrocky |
Oct-18-09 11:04 AM |
#59 |
   
How surprising, complex thought still eludes you. |
Fire_Medic_Dave |
Oct-18-09 01:45 PM |
#92 |
  
I don't think there can be absolute absolution if that is what you mean |
Liberation Angel |
Oct-18-09 02:38 PM |
#98 |
  
I appreciate your answer and respect your opinion. |
Fire_Medic_Dave |
Oct-18-09 03:27 PM |
#101 |
  
I am a pacifist: so i am saying Satyagraha is what is required: Nonviolent resistance: BUT... |
Liberation Angel |
Oct-18-09 11:38 AM |
#64 |
 
Interesting. |
sl8 |
Oct-17-09 09:35 PM |
#10 |

I have marched with IVAW and my answer is still: we ARE personally responsible |
Liberation Angel |
Oct-18-09 11:30 AM |
#60 |

As a pacifist and a CO, I |
tomg |
Oct-18-09 04:18 PM |
#105 |

Yes, I worked for blackwater. |
951-Riverside |
Oct-17-09 09:20 PM |
#4 |
 
Shall I take that as a "no"? |
sl8 |
Oct-17-09 09:43 PM |
#13 |

Gradations of responsibility. Primo Levy in "Survival in Auschwitz" discusses "gradations" |
Liberation Angel |
Oct-18-09 01:35 PM |
#89 |

Deleted sub-thread |
Name removed |
Oct-17-09 09:22 PM |
#5 |

There are things, extreme things, that could be done to end my responsibility. |
patrice |
Oct-17-09 09:29 PM |
#7 |
 
Thanks for the elaboration. |
sl8 |
Oct-17-09 09:45 PM |
#14 |
  
I never supported the war. From the very first rumors, I have been and still am |
patrice |
Oct-17-09 11:22 PM |
#33 |
 
Great point. Those are the only two things that could |
ecstatic |
Oct-18-09 11:33 AM |
#63 |
 
I agree BUT here's the thing |
Liberation Angel |
Oct-18-09 11:59 AM |
#66 |

People on this board |
Libertas1776 |
Oct-17-09 09:29 PM |
#8 |
 
I wrestled with that issue and came to different conclusions.... |
mike_c |
Oct-17-09 09:39 PM |
#11 |
  
Your parents really did a number on you. |
Fire_Medic_Dave |
Oct-17-09 09:56 PM |
#18 |
 
Deleted message |
Name removed |
Oct-17-09 10:02 PM |
#24 |
 
You don't believe that such responsibilities can be freely chosen? |
patrice |
Oct-17-09 11:38 PM |
#35 |
 
You can choose to feel guilty about anything you want. |
Fire_Medic_Dave |
Oct-17-09 11:43 PM |
#36 |
 
There's a difference between guilt and responsibility. |
patrice |
Oct-17-09 11:58 PM |
#39 |
  
I missed where I said it doesn't matter. |
Fire_Medic_Dave |
Oct-18-09 12:32 AM |
#43 |
 
My apologies for the implication. I was just making that point explicit. |
patrice |
Oct-18-09 12:40 AM |
#45 |
 
No worries. |
Fire_Medic_Dave |
Oct-18-09 01:42 PM |
#91 |
 
P.S. It isn't about wanting to feel that way. It's about the facts. |
patrice |
Oct-18-09 12:05 AM |
#40 |
 
So anyone who disagrees with your opinion is a liar? |
Fire_Medic_Dave |
Oct-18-09 12:33 AM |
#44 |
 
Facts are not opinions. It is not my opinion that "we" have unnecessarily killed and helped to kill |
patrice |
Oct-18-09 12:42 AM |
#46 |
 
So someone can't know the facts and not feel personally responsible? |
Fire_Medic_Dave |
Oct-18-09 01:36 PM |
#90 |
 
Thanks for the reply. n/t |
sl8 |
Oct-17-09 09:53 PM |
#17 |
 
Saying we're personally responsible for that is like saying those of us who like to drink alcohol |
cherokeeprogressive |
Oct-18-09 12:07 AM |
#41 |
  
It isn't about whether you can stop drunks from injuring or killing others, or stop |
patrice |
Oct-18-09 12:25 AM |
#42 |
   
I VOTE. |
cherokeeprogressive |
Oct-18-09 12:58 AM |
#47 |
  
2000, 2004 & the battle to reform Health Care/Insurance didn't reveal to you what "your" vote is? |
patrice |
Oct-18-09 01:03 AM |
#49 |
  
MY vote is what I mark on the paper. |
cherokeeprogressive |
Oct-18-09 01:06 AM |
#50 |
  
You mark on the paper what the corporate hegemony LETS you mark on the paper and then |
patrice |
Oct-18-09 01:09 AM |
#51 |
  
That may be what happens in YOUR county... |
cherokeeprogressive |
Oct-18-09 01:25 AM |
#53 |
  
So, you're okay with how campaigns are financed AND the election wasn't stolen in 2000 |
patrice |
Oct-18-09 01:33 AM |
#54 |
  
Your issue should be with the people in Ohio counties who dropped the ball, or were dishonest |
cherokeeprogressive |
Oct-18-09 01:40 AM |
#55 |
  
Thank you for caring and thanks for the effort, but what happens is about much more than the vote. |
patrice |
Oct-18-09 01:50 AM |
#56 |
  
No - its like saying you gave the booze to a drunk driver or teenager |
Liberation Angel |
Oct-18-09 12:14 PM |
#72 |
 
Do you buy gasoline? Pay taxes? If so then you are providing the resources for these deaths |
Liberation Angel |
Oct-18-09 12:05 PM |
#69 |
 
We are complicit if we do not nonviolently resist via Satyagraha or other means: |
Liberation Angel |
Oct-18-09 12:05 PM |
#70 |

recommended.... |
mike_c |
Oct-17-09 09:29 PM |
#9 |
 
Really - the fact that there are only SIX recommends (unrecs have buried this) |
Liberation Angel |
Oct-18-09 12:03 PM |
#67 |

Nope. nt |
anonymous171 |
Oct-17-09 09:40 PM |
#12 |

Yes. That's why it is my duty to speak out consistently against them. |
TexasObserver |
Oct-17-09 09:49 PM |
#15 |
 
Thanks for the response. n/t |
sl8 |
Oct-17-09 09:58 PM |
#19 |
 
that's right |
barbtries |
Oct-17-09 10:04 PM |
#25 |

There's a difference between "feeling" that we are responsible and feeling guilty. |
Liberation Angel |
Oct-18-09 12:57 PM |
#77 |

the way the question was worded |
barbtries |
Oct-18-09 01:51 PM |
#94 |

You are not alone BUT: recognizing this feeling makes a HUGE difference |
Liberation Angel |
Oct-18-09 02:17 PM |
#96 |

"weary and teary" |
barbtries |
Oct-18-09 03:37 PM |
#102 |

The citizens of a nation can be held accountable for the acts of that nation to the degree... |
imdjh |
Oct-17-09 09:51 PM |
#16 |
 
Thanks for the response. n/t |
sl8 |
Oct-17-09 09:58 PM |
#20 |
 
What about the citizens OF that nation? WE can hold ourselves accountable! |
Liberation Angel |
Oct-18-09 12:46 PM |
#75 |

i said no |
barbtries |
Oct-17-09 09:58 PM |
#21 |
 
Thanks for the reply. n/t |
sl8 |
Oct-17-09 09:59 PM |
#22 |

An illegal invasion and occupation |
malaise |
Oct-17-09 10:08 PM |
#26 |
 
I'm not sure that I understand your objection. |
sl8 |
Oct-17-09 10:16 PM |
#27 |

Other: No |
Fla_Democrat |
Oct-17-09 10:34 PM |
#28 |

I think the real question is whether we benefit economically |
starroute |
Oct-17-09 10:47 PM |
#29 |

Just "no". n/t |
elocs |
Oct-17-09 10:57 PM |
#30 |

I've done my best to throw the defiler fucks out of office and don't subscribe to white guilt |
dusmcj |
Oct-17-09 11:03 PM |
#31 |

Not sure that I'm responsible, but I'm damned sure |
madamesilverspurs |
Oct-17-09 11:18 PM |
#32 |
 
Cindy Sheehan is doing it, she says (see post #95 |
Liberation Angel |
Oct-18-09 02:43 PM |
#99 |

With a stolen election? or two? No way . |
exman |
Oct-17-09 11:33 PM |
#34 |
 
Belated Welcome to DU! |
Strong Atheist |
Oct-18-09 11:02 AM |
#58 |

In the end, we are. n/t |
Greyhound |
Oct-17-09 11:43 PM |
#37 |
 
End of the week? End of the month? End of the year? Decade? Century? |
cherokeeprogressive |
Oct-18-09 12:59 AM |
#48 |

Until the end of the war, we are... |
Liberation Angel |
Oct-18-09 01:28 PM |
#84 |

The end of the accounting.. We are the government, the fact that we've |
Greyhound |
Oct-18-09 06:46 PM |
#106 |

I have been outspoken from the get-go about apposing these wars. |
winyanstaz |
Oct-18-09 01:11 AM |
#52 |

Nope. |
Kickin_Donkey |
Oct-18-09 02:25 AM |
#57 |

And the torture. |
asdjrocky |
Oct-18-09 11:31 AM |
#61 |

Of course we are. Even if we did not vote for the person doing it |
ecstatic |
Oct-18-09 11:32 AM |
#62 |

A sense of responsibility is what makes you a Citizen. |
annabanana |
Oct-18-09 12:04 PM |
#68 |

A friend of mine died in Iraq |
JonLP24 |
Oct-18-09 12:09 PM |
#71 |
 
That is very sad ... and I am sorry |
Liberation Angel |
Oct-18-09 01:21 PM |
#80 |

I understand |
JonLP24 |
Oct-18-09 01:30 PM |
#85 |

That really brings home the senselessness of it all. I marched with IVAW in Denver... |
Liberation Angel |
Oct-18-09 01:48 PM |
#93 |

No. I have almost no input into such decisions. Blame the rulers. |
JVS |
Oct-18-09 12:15 PM |
#73 |
 
Do you input you tax dollars? Drive? Do you protest? Are we like Germans in 1938? 1933? |
Liberation Angel |
Oct-18-09 12:49 PM |
#76 |

I refuse to take responsibility when my input is being put in a box every other November... |
JVS |
Oct-18-09 01:16 PM |
#78 |
 
So I guess I have to ask: |
Liberation Angel |
Oct-18-09 01:17 PM |
#79 |

If my lack of repsonsibility for the wars makes me a 1938 German, does presiding over ... |
JVS |
Oct-18-09 01:22 PM |
#81 |

No because... |
Liberation Angel |
Oct-18-09 02:24 PM |
#97 |

Re: Germany 1932 |
SOS |
Oct-18-09 03:24 PM |
#100 |

If this is a nonviolent fight, then I am on board, But... |
Liberation Angel |
Oct-18-09 03:47 PM |
#103 |

Surprising to see only 6 recs on this thread: this is an important question. |
Liberation Angel |
Oct-18-09 01:24 PM |
#82 |

Even if you think you aren't responsible you are. |
Warren Stupidity |
Oct-18-09 01:25 PM |
#83 |

Until we have a better understanding of the causes of war, I'm not ready to say |
Hippo_Tron |
Oct-18-09 01:30 PM |
#86 |
 
cui bono? the defense contractors and war materiel providers.... |
create.peace |
Oct-19-09 04:51 AM |
#108 |

A Message from Cindy Sheehan .... |
Liberation Angel |
Oct-18-09 01:59 PM |
#95 |

No, that would be ridiculous. |
LostInAnomie |
Oct-18-09 03:58 PM |
#104 |

Yes, but not for the reason you have in your poll |
NeedleCast |
Oct-18-09 06:52 PM |
#107 |

you seem pretty angry on your blog, though, just sayin'...nt |
create.peace |
Oct-19-09 04:56 AM |
#109 |