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Reply #147: I dismiss no Greeks and honor Nietzsche. 'Hope' is not the sole [View All]

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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Donate to DU! Sat Oct-10-09 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #142
147. I dismiss no Greeks and honor Nietzsche. 'Hope' is not the sole
variable in the Committee's decision to award the prize to the young American president, although it is bandied about in responses here and abroad as one element of the rationale.

To give all your sources their due, it was with demonstrable hope that Demeter searched for her daughter. The torment referenced is real, certainly, but cannot be navigated around. It cannot be removed from dedication and love. Moreover it cannot be diminished in Demeter's total narrative and purpose because along her way, hope clearly attendant, she is welcomed to the supper table of a peasant family and it is to that family's youngest son that she reveals the divine secret of the grain.

A very useful by-product of her journey. Also one which is not time-specific. She honors in the youngest son his earnestness, the absence of cynicism. That son's older brother dismisses Demeter, unaware that she is divine, and for his loose, cynical tongue he is turned into a lizard by the goddess.

Extracting from Demeter's story the impulse to award Good we have Dubya cast as the older son and Barack Obama as the earnest younger son, a personification of the promise of fruitful agriculture, of bountiful harvest.

If there is a divine secret of sustaining harvest and survival, it is to the younger earnest son that such a secret be shared.

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  So again, I have to ask MadHound  Oct-09-09 10:43 PM   #0 
   "...other than that of a mundane political campaign?" Mundane? Really? Really?  Parker CA   Oct-09-09 10:46 PM   #1 
   Yes, really.  MadHound   Oct-09-09 10:51 PM   #7 
      Ho hum, nothing to see here, just carry on.  Parker CA   Oct-09-09 10:56 PM   #16 
   He replaced Bush.  baldguy   Oct-09-09 10:46 PM   #2 
   By that line of logic, if McCain had won the election, he should have been given the Nobel.  WillowTree   Oct-10-09 12:20 AM   #108 
      Yeah, because McCain would have been SO much different than Bush  Incitatus   Oct-10-09 12:22 AM   #111 
   Most people know (even if they wont admit it) that this wasnt for anything done yet  DJ13   Oct-09-09 10:47 PM   #3 
   I wonder why he needs to be coerced? Why he needs a peace award to do the right thing?  SammyWinstonJack   Oct-09-09 10:53 PM   #10 
      I have no doubts he would still do the right things  DJ13   Oct-09-09 10:58 PM   #20 
         Misuse and bypass...I agree.  SammyWinstonJack   Oct-09-09 11:03 PM   #29 
   Answer:  tabatha   Oct-09-09 10:48 PM   #4 
   Read these and enjoy the fact that even if you don't, other people want  babylonsister   Oct-09-09 10:48 PM   #5 
   Notice all those people had actually done something though, even if their work was still in progress  MadHound   Oct-09-09 11:01 PM   #26 
      Yea, he just sucks. No, he doesn't , you do! nt  babylonsister   Oct-09-09 11:26 PM   #64 
      Ah yes, the retort of one who is short on logical arguments  MadHound   Oct-09-09 11:28 PM   #69 
      Actually, Tutu (1984) was given his years before apartheid ended (1994).  tabatha   Oct-10-09 12:33 AM   #115 
         Yes, but Tutu had actually done a substantial body of work towards ending apartheid  MadHound   Oct-10-09 07:05 AM   #121 
            You miss the point.  tabatha   Oct-10-09 02:19 PM   #191 
   What he did..  C_U_L8R   Oct-09-09 10:50 PM   #6 
   Clinton ended twelve years of Republican blight, and brokered the Good Friday accords to boot  MadHound   Oct-09-09 10:54 PM   #13 
      The man has inspired  C_U_L8R   Oct-10-09 12:27 AM   #113 
         I see plenty of value in that, but many people have inspired, in numbers far greater than Obama's  MadHound   Oct-10-09 07:07 AM   #122 
            Apparently the judges disagree with you  C_U_L8R   Oct-10-09 08:28 AM   #145 
   It is the ying and yang  rufus dog   Oct-09-09 10:52 PM   #8 
   It's about what he wants to do....and....he's not Bush. nt  Thickasabrick   Oct-09-09 10:52 PM   #9 
   Are you still f'ing whining about this?  Mrs. Overall   Oct-09-09 10:53 PM   #11 
   Ah, I see you can't answer the question.  MadHound   Oct-09-09 10:56 PM   #15 
      +1 nt  SammyWinstonJack   Oct-09-09 11:05 PM   #33 
      Since you've asked more than a couple people to "answer the question"  Parker CA   Oct-09-09 11:07 PM   #36 
         And again, they are stating that this is awarded for being inspirational and NotBush  MadHound   Oct-09-09 11:12 PM   #46 
            Here's some more, and although they surely won't change your mind, here's more...  Parker CA   Oct-09-09 11:13 PM   #47 
               Inspiration and NotBush  MadHound   Oct-09-09 11:22 PM   #61 
                  Good luck. nt.  Parker CA   Oct-09-09 11:39 PM   #85 
                  YOU are deciding when a peace prize should be given.  tabatha   Oct-10-09 12:35 AM   #116 
                     No, I'm obviously not making that decision  MadHound   Oct-10-09 07:09 AM   #123 
                        He has done plenty!  tabatha   Oct-10-09 02:11 PM   #190 
                           Really? How?  MadHound   Oct-10-09 02:49 PM   #194 
   Attitude, Hope, and Inspiration will do this screwed-up world a ton of good.  TheCowsCameHome   Oct-09-09 10:54 PM   #12 
   It's a shame that some can't see the paradigm shift since he entered the world stage...  sweetloukillbot   Oct-10-09 07:21 AM   #130 
   What direction is that?  MadHound   Oct-10-09 07:28 AM   #134 
   Yeah, yeah yeah I know, he's doubled down and infinitely extended....  sweetloukillbot   Oct-10-09 07:34 AM   #137 
      Speaking of selective blindness,  MadHound   Oct-10-09 07:40 AM   #138 
         No, I'm not ignoring the death of innocents.  sweetloukillbot   Oct-10-09 08:31 AM   #146 
            Ah yes, the same rational that kept us in Vietnam for years and decades  MadHound   Oct-10-09 08:56 AM   #152 
               You're right about insanity.  sweetloukillbot   Oct-10-09 09:08 AM   #154 
                  So essentially you're saying that accomplishing in the abstract  MadHound   Oct-10-09 09:11 AM   #156 
                     No...  sweetloukillbot   Oct-10-09 09:19 AM   #158 
   OMG  LWolf   Oct-10-09 12:18 PM   #182 
   That, and a buck  blindpig   Oct-10-09 07:53 AM   #141 
      Try living without those things.  TheCowsCameHome   Oct-10-09 08:17 AM   #143 
   In unrec'ing this post I pressed the mouse so hard it choked.  saltpoint   Oct-09-09 10:54 PM   #14 
   Yes, but can you answer the question?  MadHound   Oct-09-09 10:57 PM   #18 
   I gave it the thought it deserved.  saltpoint   Oct-09-09 10:59 PM   #24 
   Then rather than repeat your same talking point, refute my argument!  MadHound   Oct-09-09 11:03 PM   #31 
   I was strongly hinting that you do not have an argument.  saltpoint   Oct-09-09 11:04 PM   #32 
      One doesn't judge the validity of an argument by the commentary of political talking heads  MadHound   Oct-09-09 11:09 PM   #42 
         You seem quite upset over the Committee's awarding the Prize to  saltpoint   Oct-09-09 11:11 PM   #44 
            Yep, when logic fails, resort to personal attacks and ad hominems  MadHound   Oct-09-09 11:17 PM   #56 
               Ah, we hear the whispers behind your curtains more clearly...  saltpoint   Oct-09-09 11:19 PM   #58 
               Yes, a CinC who is doubling down in one illegal, immoral war,  MadHound   Oct-09-09 11:26 PM   #66 
                  Your anger has gotten the best of your brain.  saltpoint   Oct-09-09 11:27 PM   #68 
                     What, one dare not question the reasons?  MadHound   Oct-09-09 11:30 PM   #71 
                        Graceless antagonism targeting a popular and globally influential man.  saltpoint   Oct-09-09 11:32 PM   #74 
                           Asking a simple question is graceless antagonism?  MadHound   Oct-09-09 11:33 PM   #78 
                              Sorry. Your question, such as it is, is not simple at all. Is it.  saltpoint   Oct-09-09 11:35 PM   #82 
                                 No, it's quite simple despite all of your attempts to portray it otherwise  MadHound   Oct-09-09 11:44 PM   #87 
                                    Find someone else to jump through your hoops. I don't do hoops.  saltpoint   Oct-09-09 11:48 PM   #89 
                                       Apparently you don't do rational debate either  MadHound   Oct-09-09 11:53 PM   #95 
                                          Oddly enough, I do. But there's no evidence of it in your posts in this  saltpoint   Oct-09-09 11:55 PM   #99 
                                          Ah, now you are entirely avoiding the issue  MadHound   Oct-09-09 11:59 PM   #102 
                                          It seems untoward, IMO, that you have decided to lecture the Nobel  saltpoint   Oct-10-09 08:40 AM   #148 
                                          Obama also said that he didn't deserve the prize  MadHound   Oct-10-09 10:15 AM   #165 
               Wow now that's stunning news! Can you post a link about that meeting because I'd like to see it.  earth mom   Oct-10-09 02:43 PM   #193 
                  I heard it as the headline yesterday morning on NPR Morning Edition  MadHound   Oct-10-09 02:51 PM   #195 
                     Thanks so much I will check it out. I find it all Orwellian too.  earth mom   Oct-10-09 02:55 PM   #198 
   Well put Saltpoint  R. P. McMurphy   Oct-10-09 10:01 AM   #161 
   Rather than asking people on DU who had no influence in the decision,  Parker CA   Oct-09-09 11:01 PM   #27 
      Thank you. Your post and their words obviate the OP's graceless assault.  saltpoint   Oct-09-09 11:02 PM   #28 
      I've read the statement,  MadHound   Oct-09-09 11:06 PM   #34 
         Then you're going to have to deal with the fact that their rational isn't acceptable to you. nt.  Parker CA   Oct-09-09 11:08 PM   #37 
         That's why I ask the question,  MadHound   Oct-09-09 11:24 PM   #62 
         In that case you should contact the Nobel Committee without delay  saltpoint   Oct-09-09 11:08 PM   #38 
   "Knocked over the stand-up stapler, too." This made me laugh out loud. Good stuff. ;)  Parker CA   Oct-09-09 10:58 PM   #19 
   Ha! My mouse just about died! Graceless indeed, and unrec! nt  babylonsister   Oct-10-09 12:17 AM   #106 
      : ) Hi, there. It's apparently out of vogue to defend a good man around  saltpoint   Oct-10-09 08:41 AM   #149 
   He has altered the course of Global Diplomacy  sandnsea   Oct-09-09 10:57 PM   #17 
   But what has he DONE? Oh, altered the course of Global Diplomacy -- and  gateley   Oct-09-09 11:00 PM   #25 
   Excuse me, did you click the link?  sandnsea   Oct-09-09 11:09 PM   #40 
      I should have used the sarcasm tag. I'm with you on this --  gateley   Oct-09-09 11:11 PM   #43 
         I understood that,  sandnsea   Oct-09-09 11:15 PM   #53 
   Really, doubling down on one illegal, immoral war,  MadHound   Oct-09-09 11:35 PM   #81 
      Well I guess if you lie like a rightwinger  sandnsea   Oct-09-09 11:54 PM   #97 
         Yes, I recognize that he promised to expand the Afghanistan campaign  MadHound   Oct-10-09 07:12 AM   #124 
            See how you skipped over the NATO part  sandnsea   Oct-10-09 11:25 AM   #174 
   Al Gore  Mz Pip   Oct-09-09 10:58 PM   #21 
   He has made the POSSIBILITY of peace a reality, had peaceful talks with nations  gateley   Oct-09-09 10:58 PM   #22 
   All the while doubling down on one illegal, immoral war,  MadHound   Oct-09-09 11:32 PM   #75 
   Perhaps you want to pretend otherwise, but "inspiration" is more powerful than . . .  MrModerate   Oct-09-09 10:58 PM   #23 
   +1000  sweetloukillbot   Oct-10-09 07:25 AM   #132 
   You have to read about it  bhikkhu   Oct-09-09 11:03 PM   #30 
   Planting a tree is DOING something, even if you can't eat the fruit today.  Toucano   Oct-09-09 11:07 PM   #35 
   President Obama has given me hope.  Swamp Rat   Oct-09-09 11:08 PM   #39 
   And hope ain't too shabby.  saltpoint   Oct-09-09 11:14 PM   #51 
      Hi saltpoint  Swamp Rat   Oct-09-09 11:24 PM   #63 
      You, and I, and people we don't even know deserve both and thankfully,  saltpoint   Oct-09-09 11:26 PM   #65 
         I'm hoping we might see more help in New Orleans to fix the present damage  Swamp Rat   Oct-09-09 11:29 PM   #70 
            I'll join that hope. And it may yet come to pass. Like you, I think worry  saltpoint   Oct-09-09 11:33 PM   #77 
               Not only that  Swamp Rat   Oct-09-09 11:46 PM   #88 
                  Yeeks. Not good at all. I'm quite a ways north of any plate-shifting  saltpoint   Oct-09-09 11:49 PM   #91 
                     Depends how far north.  Swamp Rat   Oct-09-09 11:58 PM   #100 
      Hope is misunderstood..  blindpig   Oct-10-09 08:05 AM   #142 
         I dismiss no Greeks and honor Nietzsche. 'Hope' is not the sole  saltpoint   Oct-10-09 08:36 AM   #147 
   This is not on Obama  BK101   Oct-09-09 11:09 PM   #41 
   And they should have. That is the point many are trying to make, is it not?  SammyWinstonJack   Oct-09-09 11:13 PM   #48 
   From what I've learned thus far today, the Committee doesn't necessarily  gateley   Oct-09-09 11:15 PM   #54 
   There are - many  sandnsea   Oct-09-09 11:17 PM   #57 
   The Nobel Committee did it just to piss you off.  Ikonoklast   Oct-09-09 11:11 PM   #45 
   LOL.  saltpoint   Oct-09-09 11:13 PM   #49 
   How is that funny?  SammyWinstonJack   Oct-09-09 11:14 PM   #50 
      It's funny alright.  saltpoint   Oct-09-09 11:15 PM   #52 
   Who cares, they're a bunch of socialists anyway.  EFerrari   Oct-09-09 11:17 PM   #55 
      LOL! Wait -- is that funny? Why hell yes, it is.  saltpoint   Oct-09-09 11:20 PM   #60 
      You should see THEIR birth certificates.  EFerrari   Oct-10-09 12:03 AM   #105 
      And they're furriners. Can't trust'em.  Ikonoklast   Oct-09-09 11:34 PM   #80 
         Trying to mess with our wars with their World Courts and their EUs  EFerrari   Oct-10-09 12:02 AM   #104 
   He kept McCain / Palin out of the White House  Liberal_in_LA   Oct-09-09 11:20 PM   #59 
   WE kept McCain / Palin out of the White House!  Swamp Rat   Oct-09-09 11:26 PM   #67 
      In a fairly unrelated realm, had Palin actually won on the McCain/Palin  saltpoint   Oct-09-09 11:30 PM   #72 
      I'm certain McCain would have been the first victim...  Swamp Rat   Oct-09-09 11:38 PM   #84 
         LOL! O my god, that's your best one in ages, and they're ALL good!  saltpoint   Oct-09-09 11:44 PM   #86 
            She's a true predator.  Swamp Rat   Oct-09-09 11:51 PM   #93 
               Flying around shooting wolves out of the woods...  saltpoint   Oct-09-09 11:52 PM   #94 
      I hear ya.  Liberal_in_LA   Oct-09-09 11:33 PM   #76 
   Also Awarded Noble Peace Prize...  Sheepshank   Oct-09-09 11:31 PM   #73 
   NO YOU DO NOT HAVE TO ASK! No answer will satisfy you and...  TreasonousBastard   Oct-09-09 11:34 PM   #79 
   Ah yes, nice to see the bullyboy contingent is out in force.  MadHound   Oct-09-09 11:38 PM   #83 
   Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-09-09 11:49 PM   #90 
      No, I'm asking a question,  MadHound   Oct-09-09 11:55 PM   #98 
         I'll try this again...  TreasonousBastard   Oct-10-09 12:18 AM   #107 
            You're right, I am making a point  MadHound   Oct-10-09 07:17 AM   #127 
               "WE" did not award the prize to anyone.  Blue-Jay   Oct-10-09 04:31 PM   #214 
   In other words - you have no answer.  emilyg   Oct-10-09 12:22 AM   #110 
   I've answered elsewhere-- this OP just annoyed me with its tone.  TreasonousBastard   Oct-10-09 12:53 AM   #118 
      Yet you still don't answer the question  MadHound   Oct-10-09 10:18 AM   #166 
         Here. Now read it and leave me alone unless...  TreasonousBastard   Oct-10-09 10:40 AM   #172 
            LOL! Can't take the heat so you're bowing out  MadHound   Oct-10-09 11:58 AM   #177 
               So, you can't even bother to click the thread I started...  TreasonousBastard   Oct-10-09 01:46 PM   #187 
                  I clicked on your thread, you're overrating yourself  MadHound   Oct-10-09 02:52 PM   #196 
   Exactly  ampad   Oct-10-09 12:15 PM   #181 
   I agree; it's probably a "not George W. Bush award" which actually the voters deserve.  alarimer   Oct-09-09 11:50 PM   #92 
   I missed it. What was is? Someone posted Cheney's:  EFerrari   Oct-10-09 12:00 AM   #103 
   Many Bothans died to get us this information.  Engineer4Obama   Oct-10-09 12:21 AM   #109 
   Yep, that's it  notesdev   Oct-10-09 12:23 AM   #112 
   Well, as Gibb's said, "everyone was surprised" . n/t  Mind_your_head   Oct-09-09 11:54 PM   #96 
   soldiers dying in Afghanistan want to know, too. knr  Mari333   Oct-09-09 11:58 PM   #101 
   I still don't get it either  proud2BlibKansan   Oct-10-09 12:29 AM   #114 
   The people who chose him for the prize are the ones with the only reason that matters  RB TexLa   Oct-10-09 12:39 AM   #117 
   So sorry this is a miserable day for you.  1955doubledie   Oct-10-09 01:19 AM   #119 
   Miserable day? LOL!  MadHound   Oct-10-09 07:20 AM   #128 
   i messed myself  tranche   Oct-10-09 01:23 AM   #120 
   I'm sure that they sell Depends in your size  MadHound   Oct-10-09 07:21 AM   #129 
   What he has done is to be not Idiot Frat Boy. I think this year, like others in the past,  Greyhound   Oct-10-09 07:13 AM   #125 
   The NotBush award, OK  MadHound   Oct-10-09 07:26 AM   #133 
   hahahah. wipe the froth off your chin, honey.  cali   Oct-10-09 07:14 AM   #126 
   Not making me insane,  MadHound   Oct-10-09 07:23 AM   #131 
      you and logic aren't even on nodding terms. It's pointless to  cali   Oct-10-09 07:29 AM   #135 
         Thanks for proving my point  MadHound   Oct-10-09 07:34 AM   #136 
   He's changed the OFFICIAL POLICY OF THE UNITED STATES  HamdenRice   Oct-10-09 07:48 AM   #139 
   Umm, perhaps because part of that official policy change  MadHound   Oct-10-09 08:49 AM   #150 
      The Afghan war may be inadvisable, but it's not illegal  HamdenRice   Oct-10-09 08:54 AM   #151 
         Ahh, but what about that part where we're firing on a sovereign country next door  MadHound   Oct-10-09 08:59 AM   #153 
            So you acknowledge you were dead wrong about the legality of the Afghan war?  HamdenRice   Oct-10-09 09:09 AM   #155 
               Umm, the war in Afghanistan encompasses more than the country itself  MadHound   Oct-10-09 09:16 AM   #157 
                  Link?  HamdenRice   Oct-10-09 09:26 AM   #160 
                     Hmm, go read the Nuremburg trial scripts  MadHound   Oct-10-09 10:19 AM   #167 
                        That's about as persuasive as last year's "the T-bill has already defaulted!!!"  HamdenRice   Oct-10-09 10:29 AM   #169 
                           I don't "now" anything  MadHound   Oct-10-09 12:00 PM   #178 
   Hmm.  JTFrog   Oct-10-09 07:50 AM   #140 
   Ask the committee that gave the award.  TheCowsCameHome   Oct-10-09 08:25 AM   #144 
   Are you aware that the Nobel Committee has stated  Bluenorthwest   Oct-10-09 09:23 AM   #159 
   I am aware of that.  LWolf   Oct-10-09 12:24 PM   #183 
   RDP PLZ STFU n/t  R. P. McMurphy   Oct-10-09 10:02 AM   #162 
   Oh aren't you the bad ass one  MadHound   Oct-10-09 10:09 AM   #163 
      I refer you to post #161 for elaboration  R. P. McMurphy   Oct-10-09 10:39 AM   #171 
      Ah, elaboration to your original intent,  MadHound   Oct-10-09 12:08 PM   #180 
      Stifle discussion huh?  R. P. McMurphy   Oct-10-09 11:00 AM   #173 
   Ha Ha Ha Ha Haaaaaaa Ha. Obama Won And You Can't Do Anything About It Ha Ha Ha Ha Haaaaa Ha.  OPERATIONMINDCRIME   Oct-10-09 10:12 AM   #164 
   And that has what to do with the question I asked?  MadHound   Oct-10-09 10:22 AM   #168 
      Ha Ha Ha Ha Haaaaa Ha. Obama Won And Nothin You Can Whine About Can Change It Ha Ha Ha Ha Haaaaa Ha!  OPERATIONMINDCRIME   Oct-10-09 10:36 AM   #170 
         lol  sandnsea   Oct-10-09 11:27 AM   #175 
         And again you show that you don't have facts or logic on your side,  MadHound   Oct-10-09 12:02 PM   #179 
            HA HA HA HA HAAAAAA HA! Obama Won And You Can't Take It. HA HA HA HA HAAAAAA HA!  OPERATIONMINDCRIME   Oct-10-09 12:32 PM   #185 
               Did you even graduate elementary school  MadHound   Oct-10-09 02:54 PM   #197 
   Your question may be best directed to the people who actually awarded the prize  varelse   Oct-10-09 11:36 AM   #176 
   Apparently you miss the point of what the Nobel Commitee...  rasputin1952DU Moderator   Oct-10-09 12:29 PM   #184 
   Lots of people have made that same call in much more effective ways  MadHound   Oct-10-09 02:57 PM   #199 
      While I don't agree w/either Iraq or Afghanistan,  rasputin1952DU Moderator   Oct-10-09 03:33 PM   #210 
   It amuses me when the Far left & Far right bend so far around the curve that they bump butts.  RoadRage   Oct-10-09 12:44 PM   #186 
   Why are you laying this in Obama's lap?  Blue-Jay   Oct-10-09 01:53 PM   #188 
   Where did I say that I'm laying this in Obama's lap?  MadHound   Oct-10-09 02:59 PM   #200 
      Right here.  Blue-Jay   Oct-10-09 03:02 PM   #204 
         Just pointing out what Obama has and has not done  MadHound   Oct-10-09 03:09 PM   #207 
            Being a troll and engaging in "trollery" are two different things.  Blue-Jay   Oct-10-09 04:24 PM   #212 
   Its a cracker jack prize now.  Mari333   Oct-10-09 01:54 PM   #189 
   Spot on.  MadHound   Oct-10-09 03:00 PM   #202 
   Wow-all these posts on this thread and NO ONE can answer your question.  earth mom   Oct-10-09 02:40 PM   #192 
   What answer would satisfy you?  Blue-Jay   Oct-10-09 02:59 PM   #201 
   A solid, concrete, rational answer  MadHound   Oct-10-09 03:03 PM   #205 
      It's. Not. About. Any. Of. Those. Things.  Blue-Jay   Oct-10-09 04:30 PM   #213 
   Nope, I didn't expect that they would or could  MadHound   Oct-10-09 03:02 PM   #203 
      I thought we'd seen the last of this kind of insanity & b.s. when * left office.  earth mom   Oct-10-09 03:10 PM   #208 
   What he has done is redirect the world's default position on conflict.  TexasObserver   Oct-10-09 03:08 PM   #206 
   Wow, you're able to excuse a lot  MadHound   Oct-10-09 03:12 PM   #209 
      I find his original goals sound. We'll see where he ends up.  TexasObserver   Oct-10-09 03:34 PM   #211 
   RE: So again....  chowder66   Oct-10-09 04:35 PM   #215 
   There have been countless threads on why he recieved the prize  Hatchling   Oct-10-09 06:31 PM   #216 
 

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