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A HERETIC I AM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #98
103. Fascinating.
Edited on Wed Sep-23-09 03:12 PM by A HERETIC I AM
As I just said above, trade between two individuals is just that, trade.
All transactions are trades. A Sheet Metal Shear operator trades his labor for an hourly wage, just as I traded my bow and arrow for meat.

It has nothing to do with wage labor, etc.
Sure it does. In my producing a bow and arrow, I have set a price on it based on how much I value my time and effort. That price is a specific quantity of meat. If I were to get less meat than I thought I should then it wouldn't be an equitable trade to me. If I were to get more then it wouldn't be an equitable trade to you. Either way, it certainly has to do in part with what I perceive as appropriate value for my effort or "wage labor".

This sentence I find really interesting;
In a society of voluntarily associated producers the wherewithal of instituting or expanding a productive facility would be provided by that society according to to the needs and desires of those voluntarily associated producers.
So in your mind, the "wherewithal" to expand my bow and arrow making operation will be provided by "society" based simply on my "needs and desires"?

There is a reason no such society has ever long prospered or reached any technological advancements. It doesn't work in practice.

As for your example, since I expect your returning to it despite it's irrelevance, cheated, no, I'm happy if that works for ya.
Just so I'm clear here, you're okay with me making a profit as a result of your labor, right?
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  -Teresa Heinz Kerry helping the uninsured ProSense  Sep-22-09 11:59 AM   #0 
  - So generous, so Teresa. Thanks to her! nt  babylonsister   Sep-22-09 12:01 PM   #1 
  - More from MH1's article posted in LBN.....  blm   Sep-22-09 02:46 PM   #9 
  - She's funded real-life healthcare services for the underserved for years with little notice  blm   Sep-22-09 12:05 PM   #2 
  - This is still going to be important for those who fall through the cracks. n/t  ProSense   Sep-22-09 12:15 PM   #3 
  - absolutely....maybe it will encourage others to start seeing that there is no time to waste  blm   Sep-22-09 12:19 PM   #5 
  - No one should be falling through the cracks...  maryf   Sep-23-09 08:39 AM   #57 
     - That would be great - but it isn't what is happening now in the real world  karynnj   Sep-23-09 09:09 AM   #69 
        - So fight for it...  maryf   Sep-23-09 09:13 AM   #70 
           - So Teresa should follow YOUR example and stop her entire LIFE'S devotion to bringing healthcare  blm   Sep-23-09 09:42 AM   #79 
  - True - and in 2004, the media simply wrote of her being "outspoken"  karynnj   Sep-22-09 03:17 PM   #13 
  - Glad to be the fifth recommendation!  blue neen   Sep-22-09 12:17 PM   #4 
  - Thanks. n/t  ProSense   Sep-22-09 01:07 PM   #7 
  - Made me think, if we could get Richard Mellon Scaife on board for Single Payer it might happen  imdjh   Sep-22-09 12:23 PM   #6 
  - Scaife's name doesn't belong here - he targeted Kerry and Teresa long before  blm   Sep-22-09 02:36 PM   #8 
  - Scaife and Heinz have some connections if I am not mistaken.  imdjh   Sep-22-09 03:06 PM   #11 
     - BS! n/t  ProSense   Sep-22-09 03:19 PM   #14 
     - No they aren't - other than being Pittsburg based  karynnj   Sep-22-09 03:26 PM   #17 
        - "trust accounts are held at Mellon Financial Corp"  imdjh   Sep-22-09 06:03 PM   #34 
           - Scaife does not control Mellon Financial.  blm   Sep-22-09 08:34 PM   #43 
           - It is a major bank in Pittsburgh  karynnj   Sep-22-09 09:33 PM   #44 
              - Yeah, but he's also quirky.  imdjh   Sep-22-09 11:06 PM   #46 
                 - Do you have any real indication of that?  karynnj   Sep-23-09 07:08 AM   #47 
                    - There is a business angle to Single Payer. We need to keep reaching out.  imdjh   Sep-23-09 08:58 AM   #65 
  - Scaife would never go for this unless he thought it would be the end of Obama's chances in 2012. n/  wisteria   Sep-22-09 03:23 PM   #16 
  - Ah Teresa! A geniune  Cha   Sep-22-09 02:51 PM   #10 
  - Good on her and Mayor Booker  Libertas1776   Sep-22-09 03:07 PM   #12 
  - She is such a kind and caring woman. It is just wonderful that she is doing this. n/t  wisteria   Sep-22-09 03:21 PM   #15 
  - A pittance  blindpig   Sep-22-09 03:35 PM   #18 
  - This should be at the top of any list of idiotic RW spin. n/t  ProSense   Sep-22-09 03:40 PM   #19 
  - Far from it.  blindpig   Sep-22-09 04:13 PM   #20 
     - "Just goes to show how far you are from the 'left'." You can't use that as a cover for RW BS. n/t  ProSense   Sep-22-09 04:27 PM   #21 
     - Oh boy.  blindpig   Sep-22-09 04:42 PM   #22 
        - "Let me explain this slowly." No, let me:  ProSense   Sep-22-09 04:51 PM   #25 
        - Don't want to talk about politics, huh?  blindpig   Sep-22-09 04:53 PM   #27 
           - Or we can speak of those who have no class at all  karynnj   Sep-22-09 05:44 PM   #33 
              - And with a lot of money from the insurance companies...  maryf   Sep-23-09 08:30 AM   #54 
                 - Kerry is that high because he was the 2004 Presidential candidate  karynnj   Sep-23-09 09:05 AM   #67 
                 - Total ignorance - you can't be serious about this issue because you hang your hat on 2004 campaign  blm   Sep-23-09 09:46 AM   #80 
                    - Easy to find time for charity when you don't have to work for a living. n/t  TBF   Sep-23-09 07:15 PM   #116 
                       - SIX DECADES - when she was a child she traveled to villages in Africa assisting her father  blm   Sep-23-09 10:18 PM   #117 
        - The world is far more complex than you describe it  karynnj   Sep-22-09 05:35 PM   #31 
           - No use arguing with a doctrinaire Marxist.  Odin2005   Sep-22-09 07:07 PM   #39 
              - exactly  karynnj   Sep-22-09 08:26 PM   #42 
              - Your claim of Bourgeois Propaganda is just Bourgeois Propaganda  Rabrrrrrr   Sep-23-09 09:17 AM   #71 
     - You know ZERO about those who worked for Heinz - they treated workers well and were beloved  blm   Sep-22-09 04:46 PM   #24 
     - Did they not make a huge fortune off the labor of their employees?  blindpig   Sep-23-09 07:36 AM   #48 
        - And employees were treated FAIRLY and rewarded well - case closed.  blm   Sep-23-09 08:01 AM   #52 
           - What is fair?  blindpig   Sep-23-09 08:42 AM   #59 
              - Horsepoo - it's not up to YOU to tell workers how valued they should feel. You had to gin up a case  blm   Sep-23-09 08:55 AM   #62 
                 - Yes, of course.  blindpig   Sep-23-09 09:40 AM   #78 
                    - And things changed, and Heinz changed with them, resulting in satisfied employees for decades  blm   Sep-23-09 09:54 AM   #82 
                    - Yes, and in days gone by  blindpig   Sep-23-09 10:08 AM   #84 
                       - and YOU prefer Teresa stop her life's work of bringing healthcare to underserved so YOU can bash her  blm   Sep-23-09 10:14 AM   #85 
                          - I am in no way 'smearing' Teresa  blindpig   Sep-23-09 10:46 AM   #87 
                             - She is continuing what she did when she HAD NO MONEY - she's helping the sick get healthcare.  blm   Sep-23-09 11:29 AM   #90 
                    - Every listing you show was well before Teresa even met John Heinz  karynnj   Sep-23-09 03:35 PM   #105 
                       - It's all about the source of the wealth  blindpig   Sep-23-09 03:40 PM   #106 
                          - How do YOU live? If you and your family don't live exactly as you preach, then shut up about good  blm   Sep-23-09 03:52 PM   #110 
                          - That though has nothing to do with how Teresa has used that fortune for good  karynnj   Sep-23-09 04:41 PM   #113 
     - Yet you were willing to take the crumbs that multi millionare John Edwards threw you  karynnj   Sep-22-09 05:34 PM   #30 
        - Anyone who refers to helping the uninsured as a "crumb"  ProSense   Sep-22-09 06:05 PM   #35 
        - I agree  karynnj   Sep-22-09 06:08 PM   #36 
        - How did Edwards get into this?  blindpig   Sep-23-09 07:38 AM   #49 
           - Others can use search  karynnj   Sep-23-09 08:58 AM   #64 
  - And it was YOU who went from village to village in Africa bringing healthcare to those who had no  blm   Sep-22-09 04:43 PM   #23 
  - Yet they were, and are capitalists  blindpig   Sep-22-09 04:51 PM   #26 
     - And when workers are treated well and respected and valued there is still no difference to you? Then  blm   Sep-22-09 05:19 PM   #28 
     - "The vile function of appropriating the labor of the workers" ?? You mean offering them employment?  karynnj   Sep-22-09 05:41 PM   #32 
        - Your assumptions are ill founded.  blindpig   Sep-23-09 07:42 AM   #50 
  - Teresa has nothing to do with the Heinz company  karynnj   Sep-22-09 05:29 PM   #29 
  - So, where did the money of the Heinz Family Foundation  blindpig   Sep-23-09 07:45 AM   #51 
     - It came from people buying ketchup. You should go get an economics book.  Rabrrrrrr   Sep-23-09 08:05 AM   #53 
        - And who made the ketchup?  blindpig   Sep-23-09 08:33 AM   #56 
           - And those who MADE the ketchup were well rewarded and happy workers in secure working conditions  blm   Sep-23-09 08:41 AM   #58 
           - What is "well rewarded"?  blindpig   Sep-23-09 08:51 AM   #61 
           - That is for the employees to answer - not for YOU to tell them how to feel. You need to make shit up  blm   Sep-23-09 08:59 AM   #66 
           - No pictures, just lots of made-up innuendo and fundamentalist marxist soundbytes.  Rabrrrrrr   Sep-23-09 09:07 AM   #68 
           - I *did* study economics, *and* worked in the financial world.  Rabrrrrrr   Sep-23-09 08:56 AM   #63 
              - Why do we need employers?  blindpig   Sep-23-09 09:31 AM   #76 
                 - Just exactly how do you suggest the facilities the workers labor in are to come about?  A HERETIC I AM   Sep-23-09 09:56 AM   #83 
                 - Voluntary association.  blindpig   Sep-23-09 10:39 AM   #86 
                    - Nice dodge.  A HERETIC I AM   Sep-23-09 11:18 AM   #88 
                       - Not a dodge.  blindpig   Sep-23-09 01:02 PM   #91 
                       - The Lakota example is a perfect example of capitalism  Rabrrrrrr   Sep-23-09 01:31 PM   #93 
                       - That's not capitalism.  blindpig   Sep-23-09 02:01 PM   #96 
                          - I hope your sking ain't chafing from hugging onto that ideological sinking ship so tightly.  Rabrrrrrr   Sep-23-09 02:07 PM   #97 
                             - Um, there cannot be capital without money.  blindpig   Sep-23-09 02:34 PM   #99 
                                - Lots of capital in the Lakota example, and there was no money there.  Rabrrrrrr   Sep-23-09 03:07 PM   #101 
                                   - Capital? Show me.  blindpig   Sep-23-09 03:42 PM   #108 
                                      - Meat. Bow and arrows. The trees the bow and arrows are made from.  Rabrrrrrr   Sep-23-09 03:52 PM   #109 
                                         - That's not capital.  blindpig   Sep-23-09 04:42 PM   #114 
                                         - So, since you discount natural items AND manufactured items as capital, it doesn't exist.  Rabrrrrrr   Sep-23-09 10:28 PM   #118 
                       - Fine. Forget the Lakota. We're two schmucks in the middle of the woods.  A HERETIC I AM   Sep-23-09 01:33 PM   #95 
                          - Your example is irrelevant.  blindpig   Sep-23-09 02:24 PM   #98 
                             - Fascinating.  A HERETIC I AM   Sep-23-09 03:11 PM   #103 
                             - Faulty definitions.  blindpig   Sep-23-09 04:39 PM   #111 
                             - Nothing to do with wage labor?  Rabrrrrrr   Sep-23-09 03:12 PM   #104 
                       - This example is as inane as when Samuelson used it...  JoseGaspar   Sep-23-09 04:41 PM   #112 
                          - Got it. My analogy sucked. You and Blindpig win. n/t  A HERETIC I AM   Sep-23-09 05:54 PM   #115 
                 - Unless you think that every business can be turned into a co-op...  Rabrrrrrr   Sep-23-09 01:33 PM   #94 
  - Thanks for reminding me why I think you Marxists suck.  Odin2005   Sep-22-09 07:05 PM   #38 
  - hahhahah, typical ignorant bullshit by wannabe revolutionary types  JI7   Sep-22-09 07:31 PM   #40 
  - Carrying a picture of Chairman Mao? nt  imdjh   Sep-22-09 08:05 PM   #41 
  - K&R  Odin2005   Sep-22-09 07:04 PM   #37 
  - Kick for Momma T  politicasista   Sep-22-09 10:29 PM   #45 
  - John Kerry  maryf   Sep-23-09 08:33 AM   #55 
  - Why would you claim that? Kerry was a presidential candidate - of course those numbers would  blm   Sep-23-09 08:49 AM   #60 
  - His actual record...  maryf   Sep-23-09 09:18 AM   #72 
  - Bullshit - you have no basis to make that charge - just your lazy, uninformed assumption  blm   Sep-23-09 09:33 AM   #77 
     - Kerry has apparently been tireless in his work in the legislature for  Joe Chi Minh   Sep-23-09 03:09 PM   #102 
  - Besides, those numbers don't SEEM higher, they are higher...  maryf   Sep-23-09 09:20 AM   #74 
     - Because he was a PRESIDENTIAL candidate - where money comes in from everywhere - his record shows a  blm   Sep-23-09 09:26 AM   #75 
     - "seem" is appropriate as they include contributions as a presidential nominee  karynnj   Sep-23-09 03:41 PM   #107 
  - Not from companies - from the people who work for them  karynnj   Sep-23-09 09:18 AM   #73 
  - A classy lady ~  goclark   Sep-23-09 09:52 AM   #81 
  - Now THERE'S a good, Christian woman.  Zoeisright   Sep-23-09 11:20 AM   #89 
  - Bravo, Teresa!  Vidar   Sep-23-09 01:16 PM   #92 
  - Wonderful to read.  Joe Chi Minh   Sep-23-09 02:56 PM   #100 

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