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Reply #78: In Your Close, Sir, You Have Put Your Finger On A Real Point [View All]

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Fri Sep-18-09 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. In Your Close, Sir, You Have Put Your Finger On A Real Point
And deserve some commendation for being the first among the 'anti' faction to do so. While it steers us into murky waters all around, it warrants consideration.

It is quite likely, given the circumstances of some of the neighborhoods which A.C.O.R.N. services, that some genuine clients do derive income from illegal activities. In neighborhoods where unemployment ranges towards forty percent, and most of those employed are receiving minimal wages, it would be hard for it to be otherwise. How this should be handled is an interesting question.

My first engagement in this controversy was to point out advice on circumventing tax laws, and means of concealing the source of illegal income in order to make large credit purchases, is readily available to more prosperous criminals, and that what the people in the initial videos were depicted as doing is fairly common in professional suites. It is still illegal there, certainly, but it is part of the ordinary operation of things, and mostly goes unremarked and unpunished. Persons who display great umbrage at such behavior by an A.C.O.R.N. employee without displaying a similar umbrage at corruption of far greater reach and scale nearer the top of the criminal and social order do not deserve to be taken seriously as opponents of corruption and criminality, and persons who claim that action against A.C.O.R.N. strikes a great blow against corruption and criminality in our country are, to put it bluntly, either blind fools or lying allies of grand scale corruption. This would certainly take in the whole of the right wing attack machine promoting and pumping up this trivial occurrence.

If, in advising people on the purchase of homes, A.C.O.R.N. did nothing but what was routinely done by ordinary mortgage brokers over the last half dozen years, they would certainly have been engaged in some practices that were fraudulent by any reasonable standards. Mortgage brokers advised a great many clients to mis-state their incomes on applications, for example. To the best of my knowledge, this wide-spread practice has not resulted in prosecutions for fraud, though one would think it ought to have violated statutes in plenty. Even if one puts the worst possible construction on what these videos seem to show, it is difficult to make the case the behavior shown is something exceptional, and so it is hard to regard it as something worth especial effort at outrage.

When a society so structures its affairs that large numbers of its people are effectively cut off from legal income, illegal activity among those people cannot be regarded strictly as a question of personal moral worth or responsibility. It may still be necessary to police such behavior, as it can indeed do real harm to others, and in so policing it, it will be convenient to pretend the individuals in question are solely responsible for what they choose to do, and moral failures and bad people accordingly, but this is a fiction obscuring the fact that the real harm is done by those who maintain and benefit from unjust structures of economic life, and that the great moral failure is the grasping and covetousness of those at the top of the social pyramid. Without corruption and criminality at the top, there is none at the bottom; the one creates the other, and indeed, enjoins it on many.

What a service organization like A.C.O.R.N. ought to do if approached by a client who does derive income from illegal activities admits, in my view, of several answers. Certainly, on one level, it would be well advised to hew strictly to the law, which will bar advising a person how to launder money and make fraudulent representations. There would certainly exist strong temptation to do as is often done for more prosperous criminals, however, and try to walk up to the line, as professionals do, in imparting information indirectly on the wink and nod. Most anyone working for such an organization, after all, will likely share the view outlined above concerning roots of, and ultimate culpability for, much of criminality in society. In some instances, establishing oneself as a property owner, gaining a respectable face, is an essential step to getting out of the criminal life, and getting a footing in legal society for one's children and family. The old saw that at the root of every great fortune is a great crime is not an idle one. To have something to lose tends to tame a person.
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  Re: Acorn grantcart  Sep-17-09 09:16 PM   #0 
   Excellent post!  Tangerine LaBamba   Sep-17-09 09:19 PM   #1 
   We must de-fund the United States Postal Service.  NYC_SKP   Sep-17-09 09:19 PM   #2 
   And if you don't, if means you support rape.  BlooInBloo   Sep-17-09 09:22 PM   #3 
   That is exactly, exactly the point.  Zoeisright   Sep-17-09 09:24 PM   #4 
   Great post, but the Pukes targeted ACORN for one reason  DainBramaged   Sep-17-09 09:26 PM   #5 
   They targeted ACORN because it is going to be centeral to next years electon.  Ozymanithrax   Sep-17-09 09:44 PM   #10 
      $5 million denied ACORN this year or next isn't going to shut them down  DainBramaged   Sep-17-09 09:55 PM   #14 
         But it is half the funding  TxRider   Sep-17-09 10:17 PM   #21 
         Republicans don't want them shut down.  Ozymanithrax   Sep-17-09 11:09 PM   #40 
         I was thinking too that something big could grow  Cha   Sep-18-09 12:20 AM   #62 
            REPUBLICANS HAVE BEEN GAMING US SINCE NIXON  HowHasItComeToThis   Sep-18-09 06:00 PM   #81 
   You nailed it again! nt  Lisa0825   Sep-17-09 09:29 PM   #6 
   ACORN is not a government organization  TxRider   Sep-17-09 09:32 PM   #7 
   No but the functions it has undertaken sustain a public purpose.  grantcart   Sep-17-09 09:41 PM   #8 
   Exactly. Thanks for the OP and the post. (n/t)  Luminous Animal   Sep-17-09 09:43 PM   #9 
   If people don't like that purpose, it's predictable that they'll want to shut ACORN down...  BlooInBloo   Sep-17-09 09:51 PM   #12 
   Yes the rebubs want them badly, here's their current agenda  TxRider   Sep-17-09 10:16 PM   #20 
      Yah, republicans too.  BlooInBloo   Sep-17-09 10:18 PM   #22 
   Who has caused this country more grief?  sellitman   Sep-18-09 08:02 PM   #84 
   And it "becoming" a quasi-governmental agency  DHub999   Sep-17-09 11:54 PM   #51 
   great, but not analogous  paulsby   Sep-17-09 09:48 PM   #11 
   actually it is analagous but if you want a perfect "Acorn to Acorn" Analogy- here it is:  grantcart   Sep-17-09 09:55 PM   #15 
   if you can't frame an honest argument  paulsby   Sep-17-09 10:06 PM   #18 
   Mr. Grantcart, Sir, Has Framed An Honest Argument  The Magistrate   Sep-17-09 10:22 PM   #23 
   no, it doesn;t  paulsby   Sep-17-09 10:27 PM   #25 
      His Argument, Sir, Is Sound  The Magistrate   Sep-17-09 10:32 PM   #26 
         no, sir it's not  paulsby   Sep-17-09 10:34 PM   #27 
         You Have Not Successfully Explained Anything, Sir  The Magistrate   Sep-17-09 10:43 PM   #28 
            i have no animus  paulsby   Sep-17-09 10:46 PM   #29 
            Nonesense, Sir: No One Can Read Your Posts On the Matter And Avoid Concluding That You Do  The Magistrate   Sep-17-09 10:54 PM   #32 
               The analogy does not hold  TxRider   Sep-17-09 10:58 PM   # 
                  No Organization, Sir, Is Accused Of Embezzlement  The Magistrate   Sep-17-09 11:11 PM   #41 
                     So what?  TxRider   Sep-17-09 11:46 PM   #49 
                     the charges are allegations...there haven't been any convictions  noiretextatique   Sep-18-09 04:22 PM   #76 
                     Again... there's a difference  FBaggins   Sep-18-09 06:46 AM   #69 
                        Regarding The Embezzlement, Sir  The Magistrate   Sep-18-09 05:32 PM   #80 
                           Sure ... OTOH...  FBaggins   Sep-18-09 07:49 PM   #82 
                              There Is Often a Hot-House Atmosphere In Such Groups, Sir  The Magistrate   Sep-18-09 07:57 PM   #83 
            With respect, it really isn't a good analogy.  FBaggins   Sep-17-09 10:58 PM   #34 
               It Is Quite Sufficient To Draw An Equivalency, Sir  The Magistrate   Sep-17-09 11:19 PM   #42 
                  Again... it's a question of proportion  FBaggins   Sep-17-09 11:38 PM   #46 
                     And that doesn't count  TxRider   Sep-17-09 11:49 PM   #50 
                     I don't think so  FBaggins   Sep-18-09 12:03 AM   #54 
                        Hence the reason why the OP  Hutzpa   Sep-18-09 12:17 AM   #61 
                           Actually  FBaggins   Sep-18-09 12:23 AM   #65 
                     You Might, Sir, want To Look Into Federal Contracting In Iraq, For Instance  The Magistrate   Sep-18-09 12:00 AM   #52 
                     I agree,  FBaggins   Sep-18-09 12:11 AM   #58 
                        My Sense Of Humor, Sir, is An Impish Thing  The Magistrate   Sep-18-09 12:21 AM   #63 
                           No doubt... but  FBaggins   Sep-18-09 09:55 AM   #71 
                              A Weak Comparison, Sir  The Magistrate   Sep-18-09 02:58 PM   #72 
                                 I don't see the distinction you're making.  FBaggins   Sep-18-09 03:31 PM   #74 
                                    In Your Close, Sir, You Have Put Your Finger On A Real Point  The Magistrate   Sep-18-09 05:20 PM   #78 
                     Some More Facts In Evidence For You, Sir....  The Magistrate   Sep-19-09 08:25 PM   #88 
         His argument is not sound  TxRider   Sep-17-09 10:46 PM   #30 
            You Cite Issa, Sir, As a Serious Commentator?  The Magistrate   Sep-17-09 10:58 PM   #33 
               That is your only issue out of 88 pages?  TxRider   Sep-17-09 11:01 PM   #36 
                  Charges By Issa, Sir, Do Not Move Me In The Slightest  The Magistrate   Sep-17-09 11:07 PM   #39 
                     Then you have no desire for honest discussion.  TxRider   Sep-17-09 11:28 PM   #44 
                        Your patience is admirable.  woo me with science   Sep-18-09 12:06 AM   #55 
                        Citing Issa, Sir, Is Not Honest Discussion  The Magistrate   Sep-18-09 12:06 AM   #56 
                           It certain is honest  TxRider   Sep-18-09 12:21 AM   #64 
                              Issa Is Not Honest, And His Being A Senior Republican Gives Him No Credibility Whatever, Sir  The Magistrate   Sep-18-09 12:25 AM   #67 
                              Issa is honest? As honest as Tom Delay, as honest as  haele   Sep-18-09 03:41 PM   #75 
                                 I didn't say he was honest.  TxRider   Sep-18-09 04:35 PM   #77 
                                    You Continue To Maintain, Sir, That He Is A Credible Accuser, And He is Not  The Magistrate   Sep-18-09 05:27 PM   #79 
                                       I never did and do not now  TxRider   Sep-18-09 08:05 PM   #85 
                                          If You Cite It, Sir, You Claim It As a Credible Source, You Endorse It: Do Not Try And Craw-Fish  The Magistrate   Sep-19-09 01:02 AM   #86 
                                             So you believe then  TxRider   Sep-19-09 08:47 PM   #89 
                                             No Other Factor, Sir, But the Present Wind, Is Required  The Magistrate   Sep-19-09 10:48 PM   #90 
   that you don't see that it borders on entrapment then I wonder about your  grantcart   Sep-17-09 10:50 PM   #31 
      Under the Law, Sir, a Defense Of Entrapment Would Not Be Available To these People  The Magistrate   Sep-17-09 11:02 PM   #37 
   But there is embezzlement.  TxRider   Sep-17-09 10:07 PM   #19 
      Best To Drop, Sir, the 'voter registration fraud by employees' Hobby-Horse  The Magistrate   Sep-17-09 11:26 PM   #43 
         It speaks of incompetence at best  TxRider   Sep-18-09 12:00 AM   #53 
            It Is A Natural Out-Flow, Sir, Of the Task As Envisioned  The Magistrate   Sep-18-09 12:16 AM   #60 
   Excellent take. Thank you.  emilyg   Sep-17-09 10:25 PM   #24 
   Thank you.  woo me with science   Sep-18-09 12:07 AM   #57 
   Still wondering  timo   Sep-17-09 09:52 PM   #13 
   Why would PRESIDENT Obama get rid of them?  grantcart   Sep-17-09 09:57 PM   #16 
   Has ACORN ever been convicted of a crime?  Canuckistanian   Sep-17-09 09:58 PM   #17 
   We're going to NEED Acorn NEXT YEAR.  prostomulgus   Sep-17-09 11:00 PM   #35 
   I disagree  FBaggins   Sep-17-09 11:07 PM   #38 
      I would like to know  Hutzpa   Sep-17-09 11:36 PM   #45 
         I've never considered them all that valuable (in most states).  FBaggins   Sep-17-09 11:43 PM   # 
            So according to you  Hutzpa   Sep-18-09 12:14 AM   #59 
               Lol  FBaggins   Sep-18-09 06:32 AM   #68 
   I think the same applies to the catholic church  The Straight Story   Sep-17-09 11:39 PM   #47 
   K&R  cliffordu   Sep-17-09 11:43 PM   #48 
   Kicketty again. Paying off the loan, one rec at a time.  cliffordu   Sep-18-09 12:24 AM   #66 
   there's fraud in every organization that exist  democracy1st   Sep-18-09 06:49 AM   #70 
   there should be a formal investigation....this is all knee jerk reaction  spanone   Sep-18-09 03:00 PM   #73 
   Wow they told you all that?  yodoobo   Sep-19-09 01:32 AM   #87 
   Deleted message  Name removed   Sep-19-09 10:55 PM   #91 
 

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