The Magistrate
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Thu Sep-10-09 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #54 |
| 61. That Hardly Counts As a Pilot Project, Sir, On the Scale We Are Discussing |
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The 'mechanism' you suggest in commencing this discussing, that the government loan money to people to pay for medical procedures, anticipating repayment out of taxes, hardly alters the situation from that of a government administered single-payer scheme. The patient does not control the expenditure, merely signs a note under duress, in an emergency in which actual possibilities of repayment will be the furthest thing from his or her mind.
Your idea is premised on the belief that people have sizeable amounts of disposable income they could sequester to pay for future health emergencies. Whatever average figures might suggest, this is nonesense in a great many individual instances, and since the stress on the health of poor people runs perceptibly greater than it does on the well to do, health emergencies will occur disproportionately among that swathe of society which has little if any such sequesterable income, and little prospect of repaying any such loan. No matter how you torture it, it is going to work out to a subsidy, and to a great many people necessarily not being able to pay from their own resources for care they need to preserve or extend their lives, or to end pain or alleviate disability.
|
| -The Real Problem with Health care |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 02:19 PM |
#0 |
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That's the same bullshit argument the insurance company used against me |
Zoeisright |
Sep-10-09 02:25 PM |
#1 |
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Response |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 02:33 PM |
#4 |
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In other words, the insurance company was correct to dick you around because apparently |
Raineyb |
Sep-10-09 02:51 PM |
#9 |
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I have no idea what you are saying |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 04:05 PM |
#42 |
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Source on the 1.7 million? That's $34,000 a year assuming you work until 72. |
Carl Skan |
Sep-10-09 02:59 PM |
#13 |
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Link |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 04:02 PM |
#40 |
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He was TWENTY FIVE YEARS OLD when diagnosed. |
Zoeisright |
Sep-10-09 04:17 PM |
#45 |
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You are making bad assumptions |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 04:33 PM |
#51 |
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What a stupid response. |
Zoeisright |
Sep-10-09 04:21 PM |
#47 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Sep-10-09 04:34 PM |
#52 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Sep-10-09 04:35 PM |
#53 |
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So what? |
Raineyb |
Sep-10-09 02:28 PM |
#2 |
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Response |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 02:40 PM |
#6 |
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No it's not an unrealistic attitude. It's the same attitude other countries use |
Raineyb |
Sep-10-09 02:49 PM |
#8 |
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It is reality |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 02:56 PM |
#11 |
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What the hell does that have to do with your ridiculous argument that the problem |
Raineyb |
Sep-10-09 03:05 PM |
#14 |
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That is not my argument |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 03:38 PM |
#31 |
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Then I don't know what your issue is with single payer. People paying out of pocket for medical |
Raineyb |
Sep-10-09 03:56 PM |
#39 |
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Not all health care is emergency care |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 04:44 PM |
#56 |
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Most Of the Expensive Stuff Is, Sir, An Emergency, Or An Urgent Requirement |
The Magistrate |
Sep-10-09 04:55 PM |
#62 |
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I'm not being clear |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 05:11 PM |
#64 |
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You Are Quite Clear, Sir: You Are Plumping For Gingrich's 'Medical Savings Accounts' Swindle |
The Magistrate |
Sep-10-09 05:25 PM |
#66 |
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Not really |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 05:31 PM |
#67 |
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You Continue, Sir, To Ignore The Difference In The Stakes |
The Magistrate |
Sep-10-09 05:38 PM |
#68 |
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In the long run, people will alter their behavior |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 06:02 PM |
#70 |
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So, Sir, You Have Had A Welcome To the Real World Of This |
The Magistrate |
Sep-10-09 07:29 PM |
#75 |
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You make no sense sir |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 07:42 PM |
#77 |
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It Is Not Me Who Makes No Sense, Sir |
The Magistrate |
Sep-10-09 07:53 PM |
#78 |
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You do not understand, Sir |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 08:02 PM |
#79 |
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The Disbursing Authority, Sir, Always Cares How Much It Pays Out |
The Magistrate |
Sep-10-09 08:11 PM |
#81 |
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You keep saying there is no benefit, Sir, and you are wrong |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 08:23 PM |
#83 |
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You Are a Devotee of An Economic View, Sir |
The Magistrate |
Sep-10-09 08:45 PM |
#84 |
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I have Evidence, Sir, not Dogma |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 09:00 PM |
#85 |
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Not Really, Sir |
The Magistrate |
Sep-10-09 09:24 PM |
#87 |
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It's size works against it, Sir |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 09:59 PM |
#88 |
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Your problem seems to be that you view health care as a commodity not unlike |
Raineyb |
Sep-10-09 10:43 PM |
#93 |
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That is a dogmatic argument |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 11:15 PM |
#101 |
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Since You Are Pressing a Dogmatic Argument, Sir, You Forfeit That Ground Of Objection |
The Magistrate |
Sep-10-09 11:47 PM |
#107 |
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That is not true |
Nederland |
Sep-11-09 12:14 AM |
#110 |
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No, Sir, It Assists On Several Levels |
The Magistrate |
Sep-10-09 10:52 PM |
#95 |
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You argument flies in the face of the facts, Sir |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 11:11 PM |
#100 |
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No, Sir, It Does Not |
The Magistrate |
Sep-10-09 11:42 PM |
#105 |
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You are not speaking of the difference between the systems, Sir |
Nederland |
Sep-11-09 12:06 AM |
#109 |
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Are You Seriously Pressing This Further, Sir? |
The Magistrate |
Sep-11-09 12:26 AM |
#112 |
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You misunderstand me sir |
Nederland |
Sep-11-09 12:37 AM |
#114 |
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That Is Simply One Of Many Reasons, Sir |
The Magistrate |
Sep-11-09 12:45 AM |
#116 |
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Let us consider the others then, Sir |
Nederland |
Sep-11-09 01:08 AM |
#121 |
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It is Not My Custom, Sir, To Often Repeat, But a Reminder Of No. 95 Seems Warranted Here |
The Magistrate |
Sep-11-09 01:19 AM |
#123 |
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You are correct, Sir |
Nederland |
Sep-11-09 02:11 AM |
#126 |
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You have Made No Demonstration, Sir, That The Difference In Size Of the Social Units Means Nothing |
The Magistrate |
Sep-11-09 02:23 AM |
#127 |
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The burden of proof is on you, Sir |
Nederland |
Sep-11-09 08:35 AM |
#130 |
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That Is A Very Tired Wheeze, Sir, And Will Impress No One |
The Magistrate |
Sep-11-09 01:47 PM |
#133 |
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A simple question, Sir |
Nederland |
Sep-11-09 02:56 PM |
#134 |
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You Have My Thanks, Sir, For Re-Posting My Material |
The Magistrate |
Sep-11-09 03:17 PM |
#135 |
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You run from the argument, Sir |
Nederland |
Sep-11-09 05:54 PM |
#137 |
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Loans? So you think on top of the illness and the expenses needed to care for that |
Raineyb |
Sep-10-09 10:32 PM |
#90 |
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Read post #64 |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 10:40 PM |
#92 |
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What you're proposing does not work and frankly is rather |
Raineyb |
Sep-10-09 10:45 PM |
#94 |
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It does work |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 11:06 PM |
#99 |
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Response |
Zoeisright |
Sep-10-09 04:25 PM |
#49 |
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Yeah. That's why all Europeans are dead now. Not enough HC resouces to go around... |
elehhhhna |
Sep-10-09 04:38 PM |
#55 |
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Not sure what you are talking about |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 04:46 PM |
#58 |
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honey, you don't even know what YOU'RE talking about. |
elehhhhna |
Sep-10-09 04:58 PM |
#63 |
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Oh but I do |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 06:14 PM |
#72 |
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No you're not. You're talking about making sure people can't afford it. |
Raineyb |
Sep-11-09 12:38 AM |
#115 |
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The countries that have it seem to like it plenty. |
phantom power |
Sep-10-09 02:28 PM |
#3 |
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Yes they do |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 02:53 PM |
#10 |
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Interesting. Still, a single-payer scenario has its own feedback facilities... |
phantom power |
Sep-10-09 03:25 PM |
#26 |
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Response |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 03:49 PM |
#36 |
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There needs to be some responsibility on the part of the patient. BUT, once profit is taken out of |
T Wolf |
Sep-10-09 02:36 PM |
#5 |
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You can never remove money from the equation |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 02:47 PM |
#7 |
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Profit, Sir, is Hardly the Sum Of It |
The Magistrate |
Sep-10-09 02:57 PM |
#12 |
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Very true |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 03:35 PM |
#29 |
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Demand For That, Sir, is Infinite Whatever It Costs |
The Magistrate |
Sep-10-09 03:39 PM |
#32 |
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Exactly |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 03:55 PM |
#37 |
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There Is No Point To This Line, Sir |
The Magistrate |
Sep-10-09 04:03 PM |
#41 |
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That's just plain wrong |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 04:09 PM |
#43 |
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Do You Imagine, Sir, That Money is Evenly Distributed Among Some Three Hundred Million Individuals? |
The Magistrate |
Sep-10-09 04:16 PM |
#44 |
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Sorry |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 04:37 PM |
#54 |
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That Hardly Counts As a Pilot Project, Sir, On the Scale We Are Discussing |
The Magistrate |
Sep-10-09 04:53 PM |
#61 |
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See post #64 (nt) |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 05:12 PM |
#65 |
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If You Are Trying Cold, Sir, Try This: Your Infertility Expenses Are Wholly, Absolutely Optional |
The Magistrate |
Sep-10-09 03:06 PM |
#15 |
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The "ordinary receipt of taxes" |
Carl Skan |
Sep-10-09 03:08 PM |
#16 |
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Governments Do Tend To Operate At a Deficit, Sir |
The Magistrate |
Sep-10-09 03:11 PM |
#17 |
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You're right |
Carl Skan |
Sep-10-09 03:15 PM |
#20 |
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China, Sir, Cannot Wound Us Without Grievous Harm To Itself |
The Magistrate |
Sep-10-09 03:17 PM |
#21 |
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Do you realize you have just turned over a billion people into our slaves? |
Carl Skan |
Sep-10-09 03:18 PM |
#22 |
  -
Not My Problem, Sir: The Structure Of Things Is What It Is |
The Magistrate |
Sep-10-09 03:21 PM |
#23 |
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And you Sir, in your extremely well thought out future see no change to that |
Carl Skan |
Sep-10-09 03:25 PM |
#27 |
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What Do You Know Of the Fate Of Future Generations, Sir? |
The Magistrate |
Sep-10-09 03:36 PM |
#30 |
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Oh, it is? |
Carl Skan |
Sep-10-09 03:42 PM |
#34 |
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You May Well, Sir, Be Making Your Own Contribution To That |
The Magistrate |
Sep-10-09 03:46 PM |
#35 |
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BTW, China itself is adopting a single payer system starting in January if I remember correctly. |
Raineyb |
Sep-10-09 03:22 PM |
#25 |
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Yes, they're working back that way |
Carl Skan |
Sep-10-09 03:30 PM |
#28 |
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THANK you. |
Zoeisright |
Sep-10-09 04:19 PM |
#46 |
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Hey you better knock it off with your smart rationalizing and stuff around here. |
cbdo2007 |
Sep-10-09 03:13 PM |
#18 |
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There is much truth in what you say. |
Laelth |
Sep-10-09 03:14 PM |
#19 |
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Everytime I have gone to the doctor I was the customer |
lefthandedlefty |
Sep-10-09 03:22 PM |
#24 |
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I disagree |
TxRider |
Sep-10-09 03:39 PM |
#33 |
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How do you pay for a right |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 03:56 PM |
#38 |
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That's what's done in a single payer system. |
Lucy Goosey |
Sep-10-09 04:22 PM |
#48 |
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You are correct |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 06:12 PM |
#71 |
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Supply doesn't "far outstrip" demand in Canada |
Lucy Goosey |
Sep-10-09 06:48 PM |
#74 |
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Sure it does |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 07:33 PM |
#76 |
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The Fraser Institute is a right wing think tank, |
Lucy Goosey |
Sep-10-09 08:09 PM |
#80 |
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Their data comes from the government itself (nt) |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 09:14 PM |
#86 |
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The Study, Sir, Seems To Mix Apples And Oranges |
The Magistrate |
Sep-10-09 08:18 PM |
#82 |
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Fair enough, Sir |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 10:38 PM |
#91 |
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What Do You Imagine This Proves, Sir? |
The Magistrate |
Sep-10-09 11:36 PM |
#103 |
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I imagine it proves that shortages of supply have existed in Canada, Sir (nt) |
Nederland |
Sep-11-09 12:16 AM |
#111 |
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They Exist Here, Sir: They Exist Everywhere, And Must, Given The Nature Of The Demand |
The Magistrate |
Sep-11-09 12:36 AM |
#113 |
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Then we are in agreement, Sir |
Nederland |
Sep-11-09 12:47 AM |
#118 |
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Not Really, Sir, Because Your Comments Go Beyond That |
The Magistrate |
Sep-11-09 12:59 AM |
#119 |
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If I did suggest that, it was unintentional, Sir |
Nederland |
Sep-11-09 01:14 AM |
#122 |
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Fair Enough, Sir |
The Magistrate |
Sep-11-09 01:22 AM |
#124 |
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Well.. |
TxRider |
Sep-10-09 04:25 PM |
#50 |
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And I hope that your father |
Zoeisright |
Sep-10-09 04:46 PM |
#57 |
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Thank you (nt) |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 04:47 PM |
#59 |
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You're welcome. Cancer is very hard. |
Zoeisright |
Sep-10-09 04:49 PM |
#60 |
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Demand is infinite? |
lumberjack_jeff |
Sep-10-09 10:54 PM |
#98 |
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You're confusing two different concepts |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 11:46 PM |
#106 |
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Demand may be inelastic, but it is not infinite. n/t |
lumberjack_jeff |
Sep-11-09 09:04 AM |
#131 |
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Another argument from the spokesman for the "I've got mine, fuck you" faction. |
Greyhound |
Sep-10-09 05:50 PM |
#69 |
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Did you even read the whole post? |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 06:20 PM |
#73 |
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Healthcare is a right, not a commodity. You do what is necessary and find a way to pay for it. |
Odin2005 |
Sep-10-09 10:24 PM |
#89 |
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This OP |
Cleita |
Sep-10-09 10:54 PM |
#97 |
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I never claimed that Health Care is a commodity |
Nederland |
Sep-10-09 11:41 PM |
#104 |
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If you are willing to state that it's not a commodity why do you insist on treating it like one |
Raineyb |
Sep-11-09 12:47 AM |
#117 |
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You again. Remember when you said we shouldn't have Social Security either |
Cleita |
Sep-10-09 10:52 PM |
#96 |
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Rec'd for being different |
Kaleva |
Sep-10-09 11:23 PM |
#102 |
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An example of not having to pay out of pocket |
Kaleva |
Sep-10-09 11:48 PM |
#108 |
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Good post but I got dizzy reading it |
DeadEyeDyck |
Sep-11-09 01:06 AM |
#120 |
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Excuse me, why are you ignoring the elephant standing on your foot? |
Fozzledick |
Sep-11-09 01:22 AM |
#125 |
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Medicare has it's own cost problems |
Kaleva |
Sep-11-09 08:35 AM |
#129 |
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Do you have to get prior approval from an insurance company for each furnace you deliver? |
Fozzledick |
Sep-11-09 12:45 PM |
#132 |
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Bullshit. What insurance company is paying you to post this? |
Mind_your_head |
Sep-11-09 02:26 AM |
#128 |
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By your own logic, you don't deserve fertility treatments |
supernova |
Sep-11-09 03:43 PM |
#136 |