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Reply #61: That Hardly Counts As a Pilot Project, Sir, On the Scale We Are Discussing [View All]

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-10-09 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. That Hardly Counts As a Pilot Project, Sir, On the Scale We Are Discussing
The 'mechanism' you suggest in commencing this discussing, that the government loan money to people to pay for medical procedures, anticipating repayment out of taxes, hardly alters the situation from that of a government administered single-payer scheme. The patient does not control the expenditure, merely signs a note under duress, in an emergency in which actual possibilities of repayment will be the furthest thing from his or her mind.

Your idea is premised on the belief that people have sizeable amounts of disposable income they could sequester to pay for future health emergencies. Whatever average figures might suggest, this is nonesense in a great many individual instances, and since the stress on the health of poor people runs perceptibly greater than it does on the well to do, health emergencies will occur disproportionately among that swathe of society which has little if any such sequesterable income, and little prospect of repaying any such loan. No matter how you torture it, it is going to work out to a subsidy, and to a great many people necessarily not being able to pay from their own resources for care they need to preserve or extend their lives, or to end pain or alleviate disability.
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  -The Real Problem with Health care Nederland  Sep-10-09 02:19 PM   #0 
  - That's the same bullshit argument the insurance company used against me  Zoeisright   Sep-10-09 02:25 PM   #1 
  - Response  Nederland   Sep-10-09 02:33 PM   #4 
     - In other words, the insurance company was correct to dick you around because apparently  Raineyb   Sep-10-09 02:51 PM   #9 
     - I have no idea what you are saying  Nederland   Sep-10-09 04:05 PM   #42 
     - Source on the 1.7 million? That's $34,000 a year assuming you work until 72.  Carl Skan   Sep-10-09 02:59 PM   #13 
     - Link  Nederland   Sep-10-09 04:02 PM   #40 
     - He was TWENTY FIVE YEARS OLD when diagnosed.  Zoeisright   Sep-10-09 04:17 PM   #45 
     - You are making bad assumptions  Nederland   Sep-10-09 04:33 PM   #51 
     - What a stupid response.  Zoeisright   Sep-10-09 04:21 PM   #47 
        - Deleted message  Name removed   Sep-10-09 04:34 PM   #52 
           - Deleted message  Name removed   Sep-10-09 04:35 PM   #53 
  - So what?  Raineyb   Sep-10-09 02:28 PM   #2 
  - Response  Nederland   Sep-10-09 02:40 PM   #6 
     - No it's not an unrealistic attitude. It's the same attitude other countries use  Raineyb   Sep-10-09 02:49 PM   #8 
     - It is reality  Nederland   Sep-10-09 02:56 PM   #11 
        - What the hell does that have to do with your ridiculous argument that the problem  Raineyb   Sep-10-09 03:05 PM   #14 
           - That is not my argument  Nederland   Sep-10-09 03:38 PM   #31 
              - Then I don't know what your issue is with single payer. People paying out of pocket for medical  Raineyb   Sep-10-09 03:56 PM   #39 
                 - Not all health care is emergency care  Nederland   Sep-10-09 04:44 PM   #56 
                    - Most Of the Expensive Stuff Is, Sir, An Emergency, Or An Urgent Requirement  The Magistrate   Sep-10-09 04:55 PM   #62 
                    - I'm not being clear  Nederland   Sep-10-09 05:11 PM   #64 
                       - You Are Quite Clear, Sir: You Are Plumping For Gingrich's 'Medical Savings Accounts' Swindle  The Magistrate   Sep-10-09 05:25 PM   #66 
                          - Not really  Nederland   Sep-10-09 05:31 PM   #67 
                             - You Continue, Sir, To Ignore The Difference In The Stakes  The Magistrate   Sep-10-09 05:38 PM   #68 
                                - In the long run, people will alter their behavior  Nederland   Sep-10-09 06:02 PM   #70 
                                   - So, Sir, You Have Had A Welcome To the Real World Of This  The Magistrate   Sep-10-09 07:29 PM   #75 
                                      - You make no sense sir  Nederland   Sep-10-09 07:42 PM   #77 
                                         - It Is Not Me Who Makes No Sense, Sir  The Magistrate   Sep-10-09 07:53 PM   #78 
                                            - You do not understand, Sir  Nederland   Sep-10-09 08:02 PM   #79 
                                               - The Disbursing Authority, Sir, Always Cares How Much It Pays Out  The Magistrate   Sep-10-09 08:11 PM   #81 
                                               - You keep saying there is no benefit, Sir, and you are wrong  Nederland   Sep-10-09 08:23 PM   #83 
                                               - You Are a Devotee of An Economic View, Sir  The Magistrate   Sep-10-09 08:45 PM   #84 
                                               - I have Evidence, Sir, not Dogma  Nederland   Sep-10-09 09:00 PM   #85 
                                               - Not Really, Sir  The Magistrate   Sep-10-09 09:24 PM   #87 
                                               - It's size works against it, Sir  Nederland   Sep-10-09 09:59 PM   #88 
                                               - Your problem seems to be that you view health care as a commodity not unlike  Raineyb   Sep-10-09 10:43 PM   #93 
                                               - That is a dogmatic argument  Nederland   Sep-10-09 11:15 PM   #101 
                                               - Since You Are Pressing a Dogmatic Argument, Sir, You Forfeit That Ground Of Objection  The Magistrate   Sep-10-09 11:47 PM   #107 
                                               - That is not true  Nederland   Sep-11-09 12:14 AM   #110 
                                               - No, Sir, It Assists On Several Levels  The Magistrate   Sep-10-09 10:52 PM   #95 
                                               - You argument flies in the face of the facts, Sir  Nederland   Sep-10-09 11:11 PM   #100 
                                               - No, Sir, It Does Not  The Magistrate   Sep-10-09 11:42 PM   #105 
                                               - You are not speaking of the difference between the systems, Sir  Nederland   Sep-11-09 12:06 AM   #109 
                                               - Are You Seriously Pressing This Further, Sir?  The Magistrate   Sep-11-09 12:26 AM   #112 
                                               - You misunderstand me sir  Nederland   Sep-11-09 12:37 AM   #114 
                                               - That Is Simply One Of Many Reasons, Sir  The Magistrate   Sep-11-09 12:45 AM   #116 
                                               - Let us consider the others then, Sir  Nederland   Sep-11-09 01:08 AM   #121 
                                               - It is Not My Custom, Sir, To Often Repeat, But a Reminder Of No. 95 Seems Warranted Here  The Magistrate   Sep-11-09 01:19 AM   #123 
                                               - You are correct, Sir  Nederland   Sep-11-09 02:11 AM   #126 
                                               - You have Made No Demonstration, Sir, That The Difference In Size Of the Social Units Means Nothing  The Magistrate   Sep-11-09 02:23 AM   #127 
                                               - The burden of proof is on you, Sir  Nederland   Sep-11-09 08:35 AM   #130 
                                               - That Is A Very Tired Wheeze, Sir, And Will Impress No One  The Magistrate   Sep-11-09 01:47 PM   #133 
                                               - A simple question, Sir  Nederland   Sep-11-09 02:56 PM   #134 
                                               - You Have My Thanks, Sir, For Re-Posting My Material  The Magistrate   Sep-11-09 03:17 PM   #135 
                                               - You run from the argument, Sir  Nederland   Sep-11-09 05:54 PM   #137 
                    - Loans? So you think on top of the illness and the expenses needed to care for that  Raineyb   Sep-10-09 10:32 PM   #90 
                       - Read post #64  Nederland   Sep-10-09 10:40 PM   #92 
                          - What you're proposing does not work and frankly is rather  Raineyb   Sep-10-09 10:45 PM   #94 
                             - It does work  Nederland   Sep-10-09 11:06 PM   #99 
     - Response  Zoeisright   Sep-10-09 04:25 PM   #49 
     - Yeah. That's why all Europeans are dead now. Not enough HC resouces to go around...  elehhhhna   Sep-10-09 04:38 PM   #55 
        - Not sure what you are talking about  Nederland   Sep-10-09 04:46 PM   #58 
           - honey, you don't even know what YOU'RE talking about.  elehhhhna   Sep-10-09 04:58 PM   #63 
              - Oh but I do  Nederland   Sep-10-09 06:14 PM   #72 
                 - No you're not. You're talking about making sure people can't afford it.  Raineyb   Sep-11-09 12:38 AM   #115 
  - The countries that have it seem to like it plenty.  phantom power   Sep-10-09 02:28 PM   #3 
  - Yes they do  Nederland   Sep-10-09 02:53 PM   #10 
     - Interesting. Still, a single-payer scenario has its own feedback facilities...  phantom power   Sep-10-09 03:25 PM   #26 
        - Response  Nederland   Sep-10-09 03:49 PM   #36 
  - There needs to be some responsibility on the part of the patient. BUT, once profit is taken out of  T Wolf   Sep-10-09 02:36 PM   #5 
  - You can never remove money from the equation  Nederland   Sep-10-09 02:47 PM   #7 
     - Profit, Sir, is Hardly the Sum Of It  The Magistrate   Sep-10-09 02:57 PM   #12 
        - Very true  Nederland   Sep-10-09 03:35 PM   #29 
           - Demand For That, Sir, is Infinite Whatever It Costs  The Magistrate   Sep-10-09 03:39 PM   #32 
              - Exactly  Nederland   Sep-10-09 03:55 PM   #37 
                 - There Is No Point To This Line, Sir  The Magistrate   Sep-10-09 04:03 PM   #41 
                    - That's just plain wrong  Nederland   Sep-10-09 04:09 PM   #43 
                       - Do You Imagine, Sir, That Money is Evenly Distributed Among Some Three Hundred Million Individuals?  The Magistrate   Sep-10-09 04:16 PM   #44 
                          - Sorry  Nederland   Sep-10-09 04:37 PM   #54 
                             - That Hardly Counts As a Pilot Project, Sir, On the Scale We Are Discussing  The Magistrate   Sep-10-09 04:53 PM   #61 
                                - See post #64 (nt)  Nederland   Sep-10-09 05:12 PM   #65 
  - If You Are Trying Cold, Sir, Try This: Your Infertility Expenses Are Wholly, Absolutely Optional  The Magistrate   Sep-10-09 03:06 PM   #15 
  - The "ordinary receipt of taxes"  Carl Skan   Sep-10-09 03:08 PM   #16 
  - Governments Do Tend To Operate At a Deficit, Sir  The Magistrate   Sep-10-09 03:11 PM   #17 
     - You're right  Carl Skan   Sep-10-09 03:15 PM   #20 
        - China, Sir, Cannot Wound Us Without Grievous Harm To Itself  The Magistrate   Sep-10-09 03:17 PM   #21 
           - Do you realize you have just turned over a billion people into our slaves?  Carl Skan   Sep-10-09 03:18 PM   #22 
           - Not My Problem, Sir: The Structure Of Things Is What It Is  The Magistrate   Sep-10-09 03:21 PM   #23 
              - And you Sir, in your extremely well thought out future see no change to that  Carl Skan   Sep-10-09 03:25 PM   #27 
                 - What Do You Know Of the Fate Of Future Generations, Sir?  The Magistrate   Sep-10-09 03:36 PM   #30 
                    - Oh, it is?  Carl Skan   Sep-10-09 03:42 PM   #34 
                       - You May Well, Sir, Be Making Your Own Contribution To That  The Magistrate   Sep-10-09 03:46 PM   #35 
           - BTW, China itself is adopting a single payer system starting in January if I remember correctly.  Raineyb   Sep-10-09 03:22 PM   #25 
              - Yes, they're working back that way  Carl Skan   Sep-10-09 03:30 PM   #28 
  - THANK you.  Zoeisright   Sep-10-09 04:19 PM   #46 
  - Hey you better knock it off with your smart rationalizing and stuff around here.  cbdo2007   Sep-10-09 03:13 PM   #18 
  - There is much truth in what you say.  Laelth   Sep-10-09 03:14 PM   #19 
  - Everytime I have gone to the doctor I was the customer  lefthandedlefty   Sep-10-09 03:22 PM   #24 
  - I disagree  TxRider   Sep-10-09 03:39 PM   #33 
  - How do you pay for a right  Nederland   Sep-10-09 03:56 PM   #38 
     - That's what's done in a single payer system.  Lucy Goosey   Sep-10-09 04:22 PM   #48 
     - You are correct  Nederland   Sep-10-09 06:12 PM   #71 
        - Supply doesn't "far outstrip" demand in Canada  Lucy Goosey   Sep-10-09 06:48 PM   #74 
           - Sure it does  Nederland   Sep-10-09 07:33 PM   #76 
              - The Fraser Institute is a right wing think tank,  Lucy Goosey   Sep-10-09 08:09 PM   #80 
              - Their data comes from the government itself (nt)  Nederland   Sep-10-09 09:14 PM   #86 
              - The Study, Sir, Seems To Mix Apples And Oranges  The Magistrate   Sep-10-09 08:18 PM   #82 
                 - Fair enough, Sir  Nederland   Sep-10-09 10:38 PM   #91 
                    - What Do You Imagine This Proves, Sir?  The Magistrate   Sep-10-09 11:36 PM   #103 
                       - I imagine it proves that shortages of supply have existed in Canada, Sir (nt)  Nederland   Sep-11-09 12:16 AM   #111 
                          - They Exist Here, Sir: They Exist Everywhere, And Must, Given The Nature Of The Demand  The Magistrate   Sep-11-09 12:36 AM   #113 
                             - Then we are in agreement, Sir  Nederland   Sep-11-09 12:47 AM   #118 
                                - Not Really, Sir, Because Your Comments Go Beyond That  The Magistrate   Sep-11-09 12:59 AM   #119 
                                   - If I did suggest that, it was unintentional, Sir  Nederland   Sep-11-09 01:14 AM   #122 
                                      - Fair Enough, Sir  The Magistrate   Sep-11-09 01:22 AM   #124 
     - Well..  TxRider   Sep-10-09 04:25 PM   #50 
     - And I hope that your father  Zoeisright   Sep-10-09 04:46 PM   #57 
     - Thank you (nt)  Nederland   Sep-10-09 04:47 PM   #59 
        - You're welcome. Cancer is very hard.  Zoeisright   Sep-10-09 04:49 PM   #60 
     - Demand is infinite?  lumberjack_jeff   Sep-10-09 10:54 PM   #98 
        - You're confusing two different concepts  Nederland   Sep-10-09 11:46 PM   #106 
           - Demand may be inelastic, but it is not infinite. n/t  lumberjack_jeff   Sep-11-09 09:04 AM   #131 
  - Another argument from the spokesman for the "I've got mine, fuck you" faction.  Greyhound   Sep-10-09 05:50 PM   #69 
  - Did you even read the whole post?  Nederland   Sep-10-09 06:20 PM   #73 
  - Healthcare is a right, not a commodity. You do what is necessary and find a way to pay for it.  Odin2005   Sep-10-09 10:24 PM   #89 
  - This OP  Cleita   Sep-10-09 10:54 PM   #97 
  - I never claimed that Health Care is a commodity  Nederland   Sep-10-09 11:41 PM   #104 
     - If you are willing to state that it's not a commodity why do you insist on treating it like one  Raineyb   Sep-11-09 12:47 AM   #117 
  - You again. Remember when you said we shouldn't have Social Security either  Cleita   Sep-10-09 10:52 PM   #96 
  - Rec'd for being different  Kaleva   Sep-10-09 11:23 PM   #102 
  - An example of not having to pay out of pocket  Kaleva   Sep-10-09 11:48 PM   #108 
  - Good post but I got dizzy reading it  DeadEyeDyck   Sep-11-09 01:06 AM   #120 
  - Excuse me, why are you ignoring the elephant standing on your foot?  Fozzledick   Sep-11-09 01:22 AM   #125 
  - Medicare has it's own cost problems  Kaleva   Sep-11-09 08:35 AM   #129 
     - Do you have to get prior approval from an insurance company for each furnace you deliver?  Fozzledick   Sep-11-09 12:45 PM   #132 
  - Bullshit. What insurance company is paying you to post this?  Mind_your_head   Sep-11-09 02:26 AM   #128 
  - By your own logic, you don't deserve fertility treatments  supernova   Sep-11-09 03:43 PM   #136 

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