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Reply #45: The real debate is over who creates value [View All]

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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Sep-06-09 01:16 PM
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45. The real debate is over who creates value
When I was in high school in the early 60's, we were taught about Karl Marx's labor theory of value -- and were also taught that it was considered basic economic doctrine, apart from whatever opinion you might have of Marx's advocacy of communism.

The labor theory of value, as I recall it, states that value is created by the people who put actual effort into making things -- the labor that turns raw materials into finished product, the creative effort that produces books and movies and music that never existed before.

According to Marx, capitalists and middlemen get their share only by exploiting the workers -- by making sure that workers are paid less than the true value of what they produce and taking the difference for themselves.

I don't think I completely buy that -- there are other things besides the labor involved that add to or detract from the value of a product. But it seems undeniable that the major portion of the value of anything comes from the work that went into it and that neither the people who do the physical labor nor those who supply the creative ideas ever get their fair share.

When I was learning about this stuff as a kid, though, nobody doubted that exploitation was a fact -- and the debates were about how things like the role of unions in enabling workers to obtain a bigger piece of the pie.

But since then -- and specifically since the Reagan presidency -- the entire grounds of the discussion have shifted. Not only does nobody talk any longer about exploitation, the entire labor theory of value has vanished from the public sphere.

Instead, we have been given the noxious term "wealth creation." We have been told that it is the investor class that "creates wealth." And we have had tax cut after tax cut sold to us on the grounds that letting rich people become even richer means they will be free to create even more "wealth" and everyone will live happily ever after.

Wealth, of course, isn't value. It's just money -- and much of it not even real money but on-paper profits that vanish as soon as you look inside the box and see there's nothing there.

Meanwhile, the idea of value has gotten lost. Thanks to productivity gains, workers are creating more value while being paid less. And the environment (among other things) is being degraded because we have a system that sees no problem in destroying things of real value in order to generate the phantom of wealth.

Marx's answer to all this, of course, was communism -- giving the workers complete ownership of the fruits of their own labor. That hasn't ever proved possible to put into practice, and I think there are good reasons why not -- perhaps starting with the fact that in a society of assembly line workers and paper pushers, there simply isn't the personal investment in one's labor to make most people eager to "own" whatever it is they do for a living.

But setting aside communism as an answer, we're still left with the basic problem -- which is one of value, exploitation, and where a society needs to invest its resources and attention in order to create more value (and less on-paper wealth) and to distribute the fruits of that value-creation more equally.

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  Since when did the common worker become the enemy? sjdnb  Sep-06-09 03:23 AM   #0 
   first they came for the welfare queens....  grasswire   Sep-06-09 03:34 AM   #1 
   They've always hated public education, so the president speaking with children gives them the  Liberal_Stalwart71   Sep-06-09 05:56 AM   #33 
   Harry Truman  rpannier   Sep-06-09 03:34 AM   #2 
   The GOP is a Party that DIVIDES  opihimoimoi   Sep-06-09 03:35 AM   #3 
   Extreme productivity of government workers?  notesdev   Sep-06-09 03:36 AM   #4 
   My staff work pretty firgging hard with a crushing workload because  dorktv   Sep-06-09 03:40 AM   #5 
   I've worked for 2 government departments and a GSE  notesdev   Sep-06-09 03:44 AM   #11 
      Judicial system  dorktv   Sep-06-09 03:49 AM   #13 
      the judicial system is definitely an exception  notesdev   Sep-06-09 03:52 AM   #16 
         Well the only other experience I have had with government was kind of indirect.  dorktv   Sep-06-09 04:01 AM   #19 
         I think you meant the Executive Branch held the most power...  sjdnb   Sep-06-09 04:06 AM   #21 
         I have quite a few family mbrs who have worked / do work in the exec branch - they work their asses  Justitia   Sep-06-09 04:34 AM   #27 
         delete - double post  Justitia   Sep-06-09 04:34 AM   #28 
      Sorry you contributed so little ... most contribute much more  sjdnb   Sep-06-09 03:50 AM   #15 
      Why do you think I left?  notesdev   Sep-06-09 03:54 AM   #17 
         Well when I have worked for government most worked very hard.  Go2Peace   Sep-06-09 04:06 AM   #20 
         You do know there is Whistleblower protection?  sjdnb   Sep-06-09 04:10 AM   #23 
            You mean like Sibel Edmonds?  notesdev   Sep-06-09 04:23 AM   #25 
            I smell a cop out ... Facts/Evidence/Data will win  sjdnb   Sep-06-09 04:35 AM   #29 
               Easy for you to say  notesdev   Sep-06-09 04:42 AM   #30 
            Each time there's a big "ballyhooed" whistleblower protection bill it ALWAYS has exceptions...  cascadiance   Sep-06-09 05:49 AM   #32 
               You can see it right here  notesdev   Sep-06-09 06:15 AM   #35 
      I've never worked for government,  CrispyQ   Sep-06-09 09:01 AM   #40 
   I have volunteered in several gov't agencies as well as schools  sjdnb   Sep-06-09 03:41 AM   #6 
   You obviously have no 1st hand experience ...  sjdnb   Sep-06-09 03:43 AM   #9 
   Wrong  notesdev   Sep-06-09 03:50 AM   #14 
   Bullshit. I've worked at Boeing, worked in public universities, & worked in local gov't.  Hannah Bell   Sep-06-09 03:44 AM   #10 
   ehm, since s/he couldn't pay for his/her own healthcare, I'd suppose.....  Mind_your_head   Sep-06-09 03:41 AM   #7 
   Government organizations are, by definition, irretrievably flawed and evil.  Hello_Kitty   Sep-06-09 03:43 AM   #8 
   You forgot the sarcasm tag.  Go2Peace   Sep-06-09 04:09 AM   #22 
      Didn't think I needed one but, okay. eom  Hello_Kitty   Sep-06-09 04:23 AM   #24 
   When did workers begin to organize? There's your answer for when they became the "enemy". . .  Journeyman   Sep-06-09 03:48 AM   #12 
   Oh, about 4,000 years ago.  Vickers   Sep-06-09 03:55 AM   #18 
   "Let my people GOooooooo!!!11"  omega minimo   Sep-06-09 04:27 AM   #26 
   Since the start of the industrial revolution in this country  Confusious   Sep-06-09 05:15 AM   #31 
   anti govt. worker and anti union is international  reggie the dog   Sep-06-09 06:04 AM   #34 
   The Taft-Hartley Act passed over the veto of Truman back in 1947.  Selatius   Sep-06-09 06:19 AM   #36 
   for a few millennia now?  endless october   Sep-06-09 08:14 AM   #37 
   They tell you that if you work hard you can become anything,  CrispyQ   Sep-06-09 08:48 AM   #38 
   Since the end of the Feudal System. Once wage-paying began, workers have been reviled.  WinkyDink   Sep-06-09 08:56 AM   #39 
   The day Ronald Reagan was elected. Remember the Air Traffic Controllers?  ThomWV   Sep-06-09 09:03 AM   #41 
   i'm amazed. corporate america has the citizens out protesting for them  spanone   Sep-06-09 09:07 AM   #42 
   As Paolo Freire would say, "They have internalized the oppressor."  patrice   Sep-06-09 09:50 AM   #43 
      hope I don't sound like a dunce...  grasswire   Sep-06-09 12:33 PM   #44 
   The real debate is over who creates value  starroute   Sep-06-09 01:16 PM   #45 
 

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