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Reply #82: The question isn't meaningless... [View All]

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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. The question isn't meaningless...
It's meaning lies in the way it addresses the heading from your other post, where you claim that better than saying "DNA proves race does not exist" would be to say "classical racial categories do not exist".

As I read that, you are asserting that non-classical racial categories *do* exist. Otherwise there is no distinction between the OP and your position.

??

Starting with the impression that there is a difference between your position and the OP you get a different take-away than reading it after your more detailed explanation: "Sub-Saharan Africans are a good example. A West African looks a lot different than an East African, and both look different than Bushmen of southern Africa, and all three are quite distinct genetically. The East Africans drove the racialist physical anthropologists of 100 years ago crazy because their skull proportions were very similar to those of "white" people. Human populations have not been isolated long enough for human genetic diversity to "congeal" into distinct populations with definite boundaries, making racial "boundaries" drawn on a map completely arbitrary and more often than not based on stereotyped physical features that may not be useful form a population genetics standpoint."

So what is the difference between "race" and "classical racial categories"? That still isn't clear.
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  -Spencer Wells: "According to DNA, race does not exist." eleny  Aug-30-09 09:18 PM   #0 
  - Gee..what a shock that is going to be to some people.  BrklynLiberal   Aug-30-09 09:19 PM   #1 
  - Especially those of them who lurk here  eleny   Aug-30-09 09:21 PM   #2 
  - Does that mean that we can stop answering that annoying  exboyfil   Aug-30-09 09:28 PM   #3 
  - Isn't it optional?  eleny   Aug-30-09 09:30 PM   #5 
  - It is MANDATORY on the next census, with penalties if you  Strong Atheist   Aug-30-09 10:10 PM   #15 
  - What if you lie  exboyfil   Aug-30-09 10:19 PM   #18 
  - Actually, many of us are "native americans" too, ( I was born here), though the census  Strong Atheist   Aug-30-09 10:29 PM   #21 
  - Well, that might explain a few things  Chulanowa   Aug-31-09 06:34 AM   #43 
  - Don't lie, confuse them - tell them some version of what you think your ancestry is  csziggy   Aug-30-09 11:44 PM   #28 
  - There will be no long form this time:  Strong Atheist   Aug-31-09 05:56 AM   #38 
  - Wasn't William the Conquerer  TransitJohn   Aug-31-09 06:08 AM   #41 
     - The Normans came to France from Scandinavia:  muriel_volestrangler   Aug-31-09 06:16 AM   #42 
     - Okay thanks.  TransitJohn   Aug-31-09 06:37 AM   #44 
     - "Norman" is the truncated "Norseman."  WinkyDink   Aug-31-09 08:20 AM   #48 
     - He traced his lineage back to Odin through the Norse kings  csziggy   Aug-31-09 11:02 AM   #61 
     - In the late 900s the Vikings were given title to Normandy  Thothmes   Aug-31-09 06:19 PM   #69 
     - well, if he had an OUTRAGEOUS accent  704wipes   Sep-01-09 12:49 AM   #72 
  - Just answer Human Race.  olegramps   Aug-31-09 08:17 AM   #47 
  - How will they know if you lie?  LiberalFighter   Aug-30-09 11:10 PM   #24 
  - I answer "What race are you?" with my haplogroup info  dalaigh lllama   Aug-31-09 12:01 AM   #30 
  - My maternal haplogroup (U5a) covers a helluva lot of ground  HillWilliam   Aug-31-09 09:54 AM   #59 
     - Then I guess the question is: where was that woman 10 generations back in your maternal lineage?  muriel_volestrangler   Aug-31-09 10:16 AM   #60 
        - She was found in central England  HillWilliam   Sep-02-09 08:53 AM   #89 
           - Or Huguenot, perhaps  muriel_volestrangler   Sep-02-09 10:36 AM   #90 
  - I imagine once race as a non-issue becomes ingrained in our cultural psyche...  LanternWaste   Aug-31-09 11:15 AM   #63 
  - Thanks for posting that. I hadn't noticed it was on. nt  Garbo 2004   Aug-30-09 09:29 PM   #4 
  - You're welcome  eleny   Aug-30-09 09:30 PM   #6 
  - The people who should will not be watching.  MasonJar   Aug-30-09 09:31 PM   #7 
  - And those who watch will be armed with better information  eleny   Aug-30-09 09:32 PM   #8 
  - We've known this for many years now...  The Doctor.   Aug-30-09 09:44 PM   #9 
  - True.  RagAss   Aug-30-09 09:45 PM   #10 
  - I like how his documentaries spell it out  eleny   Aug-30-09 09:51 PM   #11 
  - His documentaries are excellent, he is a very clear teacher. Thanks for posting. nt  glitch   Aug-30-09 10:15 PM   #17 
  - All the racist people I've met were insecure for a reason  Taitertots   Aug-31-09 01:23 AM   #35 
  - Given that race is a classification system based in observation, this would surprise whom?  imdjh   Aug-30-09 09:52 PM   #12 
  - DNA is a "fashion"?  eleny   Aug-30-09 10:00 PM   #13 
     - Would that make sense to you?  imdjh   Aug-30-09 10:07 PM   #14 
        - I asked because I wasn't sure what you meant  eleny   Aug-31-09 09:30 AM   #58 
  - What is the criterion for deciding when subpopulation differences within species constitutes races?  aikoaiko   Aug-30-09 10:13 PM   #16 
  - agreement mostly  imdjh   Aug-30-09 10:40 PM   #22 
     - Wouldn't someone who was determined to name races say that Obama's sister  csziggy   Aug-31-09 11:06 AM   #62 
        - She's not his full sibling.  imdjh   Aug-31-09 11:47 AM   #66 
  - How would you have a "pure" race?  safeinOhio   Aug-30-09 10:22 PM   #19 
  - I think that term is simply shorthand, even amongst the Aryan Nations folks.  imdjh   Aug-30-09 10:48 PM   #23 
  - Well, speaking in theoreticals...  Chulanowa   Aug-31-09 06:06 AM   #40 
  - Exactly. They are into "racial purity" because it's an attempt to justify their obvious inbreeding  ContinentalOp   Sep-02-09 01:44 AM   #87 
  - I participated in that Genographic Project.  Odin2005   Aug-30-09 10:24 PM   #20 
  - The I haplotype is actually more exotic than that  starroute   Aug-30-09 11:15 PM   #25 
  - Interesting! thanks for the info!  Odin2005   Aug-30-09 11:30 PM   #26 
  - How much info did you recieve?  Dramarama   Aug-31-09 12:57 AM   #33 
  - I got enough info, and it was worth the price.  Odin2005   Aug-31-09 07:46 AM   #46 
  - Hm, I participated in the National Geographic Genographic Project...  DangerousRhythm   Sep-01-09 12:41 AM   #71 
  - It's a little more complex than simply "does not exist"  Chulanowa   Aug-30-09 11:44 PM   #27 
  - There is no such thing as race in physical anthropology  kristopher   Aug-30-09 11:58 PM   #29 
  - I'm aware.  Chulanowa   Aug-31-09 12:36 AM   #32 
  - Yes, it is entirely accurate.  kristopher   Aug-31-09 01:06 AM   #34 
     - Others have done the defense for me  Chulanowa   Aug-31-09 05:56 AM   #39 
     - Thanks for taking the time to explain.  kristopher   Aug-31-09 09:01 AM   #53 
        - Yes, we do agree  Chulanowa   Aug-31-09 03:03 PM   #67 
           - I don't know how well this will work..  kristopher   Sep-01-09 05:11 PM   #78 
     - Both you and the OP are mischaracterizing the science. The precise way of saying it is--->  HamdenRice   Aug-31-09 08:52 AM   #52 
        - No, you are making the same mistake that the other poster made  kristopher   Aug-31-09 09:18 AM   #54 
  - Then how are physical anthropologists able to look at bones  XemaSab   Aug-31-09 01:35 AM   #36 
  - The problem is people have different definitions of race.  AngryAmish   Aug-31-09 09:20 AM   #55 
     - That is logical.  Manifestor_of_Light   Aug-31-09 11:32 PM   #70 
  - IMO its more correct to say "classical racial categories do not exist".  Odin2005   Sep-01-09 08:11 AM   #74 
     - One question  kristopher   Sep-01-09 05:15 PM   #79 
        - Did you not understand my post?  Odin2005   Sep-01-09 09:01 PM   #81 
           - The question isn't meaningless...  kristopher   Sep-01-09 10:38 PM   #82 
              - The simple phrase "race does not exist" implies that differences between populations do not exist  Odin2005   Sep-01-09 11:18 PM   #83 
                 - It really implies nothing.  kristopher   Sep-02-09 01:21 AM   #84 
                    - You are welcome, and sorry if I sounded confusing.  Odin2005   Sep-02-09 07:41 AM   #88 
  - Hmm where does it say that?  Egnever   Aug-31-09 12:08 AM   #31 
  - It's a direct quote from Spencer Wells in the documentary  eleny   Aug-31-09 09:22 AM   #56 
  - "Rift Valley Drifters" by Roy Zimmerman  create.peace   Aug-31-09 01:52 AM   #37 
  - The human race  H2O Man   Aug-31-09 07:07 AM   #45 
  - And we have 99% identical DNA as Bush.  RUMMYisFROSTED   Aug-31-09 08:21 AM   #49 
  - That`s a vicious rumour!  Toucano   Sep-01-09 08:36 AM   #77 
  - One can observe differences among humans as much as we can among other species. There is no judgment  WinkyDink   Aug-31-09 08:24 AM   #50 
  - Our apparent differences are from adaptation to the stresses of different environments.  McCamy Taylor   Aug-31-09 08:42 AM   #51 
  - Wells talked about that, too  eleny   Aug-31-09 09:24 AM   #57 
  - I've read that it would take 20,000 for a population to go from very dark to very light  Odin2005   Sep-01-09 08:16 AM   #75 
  - I watched that last night.  distantearlywarning   Aug-31-09 11:39 AM   #64 
  - This is news?  redqueen   Aug-31-09 11:41 AM   #65 
  - Alex Gray's Chapel of Sacred Mirrors shows this dramatically.  windoe   Aug-31-09 05:07 PM   #68 
  - I taped it last night...I was glued to the tv...very interesting,  Window   Sep-01-09 01:05 AM   #73 
  - So technically there is no such thing as "racism"?  johnnie   Sep-01-09 08:21 AM   #76 
  - Genetically? No.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Sep-01-09 05:16 PM   #80 
  - Read the book "Before the Dawn". Race does not exist. We are all African brothers and sisters.  David Zephyr   Sep-02-09 01:24 AM   #85 
  - I just finished watching it.  Cleita   Sep-02-09 01:35 AM   #86 
 

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