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Reply #166: Your Well-Reasoned Comment, Sir, Is Much Appreciated [View All]

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Aug-08-09 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #141
166. Your Well-Reasoned Comment, Sir, Is Much Appreciated
Edited on Sat Aug-08-09 01:44 PM by The Magistrate
That the events under discussion were evil in themselves, and certainly deplorable considered in isolation, is beyond argument.

Unfortunately, that is not always a sufficient consideration in prosecuting war. The over-riding ethical imperative in war is to attempt to inflict the minimum degree of cruelty necessary to bring the thing to a victorious conclusion. One has no business engaging in the enterprise at all if one is not convinced the end signified by victory is an improvement of the situation from what it was when the war commenced. On this, obviously, there can be a great deal of debate, and necessarily considerable disagreement on the part of the combatant powers, and one can only be guided by one's own values. In the instance of the Second World War, it is impossible for me to see the war aims of the Axis powers as good, or indeed as anything but evil in the extreme.

There are two elements to this discussion, one of which has been gone into at some length, while the other has not been touched on at all. The former is the fact that the atrocious conduct of Imperial Japan commenced the war in the Pacific, and so brought with some inevitability, considering the actual balance of material forces, ghastly horrors down on the populace of the Home Islands. The latter, unremarked so far, is consideration of what is needed to break the power of an aggressor state, and what was available to the military art of the time.

It is an unfortunate fact that there is no way to assail a government in the era of total war without doing great harm to the population it governs. The capability to manufacture and distribute weapons, and to fuel the machines of war and transport, and to feed soldiers and workers engaged in war manufacture, are the keys to the business. In our present day, these things can be done with some degree of precision, but in the period of the Second World War, only very blunt instruments were available. Blockade which cuts off importation of food and fuel and raw materials imposes malnutrition on the civilian populace, which leads to disease outbreaks and a great increase in death rate. Aerial bombardment did well to hit a target the size of a city; effective bombing of factories proved to be largely a mirage. Ruining of rail networks, and harrying of road transport, conducted by fighter bombers when these could be brought in range, swept up many civilians and imposed a sort of 'internal blockade', with the same effects as the external form. It became quickly apparent to those directing the war effort against the Axis that there simply was no way to weaken the enemy save measures that killed a tremendous number of civilians, and of all ages and conditions. A peculiar twist of horror layers onto this with the understanding that the leadership of totalitarian regimes above all others is most impervious to the suffering inflicted on its civilian population, and so this will be slower to effect the councils of such a regime than it might others differently constituted.

But it remains the case that without the aggression of those regimes, which put on others the necessity of breaking them, and the atrocious conduct of that aggression, which steeled political will to see the thing through no matter what, none of the various sufferings endured by civilian populations in Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany would ever have occurred. It is also the case that what was inflicted on these civilian populations did materially shorten the war. Some of this suffering was directly attendant on actions against strictly defined military objectives, much of it was occasioned by more general measures intended to break the will to fight of both the populace and the leadership, both political and military. In the case of Imperial Japan, the best assessment of the results of the campaign as a whole is that it crippled military power outside the Home Islands, reduced popular fighting spirit, weakened the will to fight of the political leadership, but did not diminish the will to fight of the military leadership in any appreciable degree. The will of the population, in the Japanese system, was the most negligible factor, at least until some putative future collapse under immediate strain to wholesale desertion of soldiers and defections of civilians to an invading force. The military leadership believed it had in hand sufficient fighting power in the Home Islands to bloody an invasion badly, and was resolved to hold on till that crisis materialized: whether it was right or wrong in this assessment is immaterial to the effect it had on their actions.

The story of the last months of the Pacific War is the story of interplay between the weakening will to fight of the political leadership of Imperial Japan, and the resolve to continue fighting of the military leadership of Imperial Japan. In the Japanese system, the military leadership held control of the government, unless directly ordered to some course by the Emperor. In the wake of the catastrophic fire raid on Tokyo early in 1945, the will of the key figure, the Emperor, to continue the war began to weaken, but not sufficiently for him to command the military leadership to surrender. His attitude was sufficient to empower civilian political leadership to commence halting peace feelers, but these were opposed by the military leadership, and worthless without their support. The only peace terms the military leadership was willing to consider were wholly unacceptable to Imperial Japan's enemies, and rightly so, as they would have simply ratified much of Imperial Japan's conquests, and left the same military dominated political structures in place. The Emperor was not moved to directly order the military leadership to surrender until after the atomic bombs, and the Soviet invasion of Manchukuo. It is a dicey debate which of these was the dominant factor, but in any case, the Soviets did not move until August 9, after the atomic attacks.
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  The grave injustice of COMMEMORATING victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki snagglepuss  Aug-07-09 09:56 PM   #0 
   Well Said, Ma'am!  The Magistrate   Aug-07-09 09:57 PM   #1 
   Thank you Magistrate.  snagglepuss   Aug-08-09 01:35 AM   #77 
   What is your opinion on the Russian dimension?  Alamuti Lotus   Aug-08-09 03:08 AM   #91 
      There Are Two Russian Dimensions, Sir  The Magistrate   Aug-08-09 03:42 AM   #93 
   Interesting. How have you commemorated the rape of Nanjing? n/t  ColbertWatcher   Aug-07-09 09:59 PM   #2 
   They are in my thoughts and I am posting this information to ensure that  snagglepuss   Aug-07-09 10:03 PM   #4 
      That's a start, I guess. But, how do you commemorate it?  ColbertWatcher   Aug-07-09 10:42 PM   #25 
         Definition of commemorate: to make honorable mention of.  snagglepuss   Aug-07-09 10:48 PM   #30 
         Okay. So, to make sure I'm understanding you correctly ...  ColbertWatcher   Aug-07-09 11:24 PM   #52 
            What is it you're smoking? Where have I ignored any calls of peace?  snagglepuss   Aug-07-09 11:59 PM   #58 
               We do not justify what WE did just because the other guys did something bad first.  ColbertWatcher   Aug-08-09 02:56 AM   #87 
               Who is doing that? Who is justifying what the US did because of what other guys did first?  snagglepuss   Aug-08-09 03:29 AM   #92 
                  You're doing that  stranger81   Aug-08-09 06:08 PM   #195 
                     I'll ask you the same question what are you smoking? Nothing in the OP  snagglepuss   Aug-08-09 07:22 PM   #201 
                        Maybe you should reread your OP, titled "the grave injustice of commemorating the victims  stranger81   Aug-08-09 07:53 PM   #202 
                           Obvisiously you're unable to read a complete sentence  snagglepuss   Aug-08-09 08:22 PM   #203 
                              hence the second portion of my sentence,  stranger81   Aug-08-09 08:26 PM   #204 
                                 Your initial response, post #93 clearly misrepresents my position.  snagglepuss   Aug-08-09 09:31 PM   #209 
               how one can act as an apologist for nuking civilians  inna   Aug-09-09 11:22 AM   #241 
                  How you can completely mistate my position is beyond me. My position is clear  snagglepuss   Aug-09-09 12:03 PM   #253 
         Some, apparently, make it Family Fun Day  buzzycrumbhunger   Aug-08-09 12:52 AM   #68 
   none of that justifies the incineration of the cities of hiroshima and nagasaki  Warren Stupidity   Aug-07-09 10:03 PM   #3 
   That isn't the issue. The issue is that the suffering of 30 million people has gone  snagglepuss   Aug-07-09 10:13 PM   #10 
   Yes, dear. Of course.  aquart   Aug-07-09 10:15 PM   #11 
   Why the snarky remark of "yes dear, of course"? As for Japanese being nice.  snagglepuss   Aug-07-09 10:27 PM   #14 
   I can't believe you're getting such backlash from your post.  gtar100   Aug-08-09 08:37 AM   #111 
   Backtrack a little Snag,  verges   Aug-08-09 10:58 PM   #213 
      It wasn't aimed at her, but it's still an incredibly snarky thing to call someone...  Violet_Crumble   Aug-09-09 04:09 AM   #234 
   So, is it also an 'interesting side effect' that 9-11 will give us 'shiny new' skyscrapers?  godai   Aug-07-09 10:29 PM   #16 
   Oops. I thought the response you made to Warren Stupidity was made  snagglepuss   Aug-08-09 12:55 AM   #70 
   actually- yes, it did.  dysfunctional press   Aug-07-09 10:50 PM   #32 
   You should read about the 90 years of so of US-Japan relations  Art_from_Ark   Aug-08-09 01:04 AM   #71 
      Yeah right.  proteus_lives   Aug-08-09 04:45 AM   #97 
      had commodore perry just left well enough alone...  dysfunctional press   Aug-08-09 09:49 AM   #119 
   Amen  proud2BlibKansan   Aug-07-09 10:54 PM   #36 
   If you want to feel guilty, fine. Use "I" not "we". nt  imdjh   Aug-08-09 09:51 AM   #121 
      deliberately targeting civilians is a war crime  Warren Stupidity   Aug-08-09 12:33 PM   #160 
         there are no civilians  imdjh   Aug-08-09 01:47 PM   #169 
            have a nice day  Warren Stupidity   Aug-08-09 06:11 PM   #196 
   You forgot about the Koreans..  ddeclue   Aug-07-09 10:06 PM   #5 
   I didn't forget Koreans. I mentioned them in my OP.  snagglepuss   Aug-07-09 10:21 PM   #13 
   Sorry - I missed the one mention of them - you discussed China in detail but not so much the Koreans  ddeclue   Aug-07-09 10:49 PM   #31 
      To adequately address what the Japanese did in all the countries it invaded  snagglepuss   Aug-07-09 11:03 PM   #42 
   goes back further than that.  mopinko   Aug-08-09 10:09 AM   #129 
   can we not condemn all atrocities and remember all victims?  annm4peace   Aug-07-09 10:06 PM   #6 
   That's a nice saying but it's not always true... sometimes you have to face down force with force.  ddeclue   Aug-07-09 10:07 PM   # 
   +1  ShamelessHussy   Aug-08-09 12:03 AM   #60 
   Not if you are trying to make it value neutral, no.  imdjh   Aug-08-09 09:53 AM   #124 
   exactly  Supersedeas   Aug-11-09 08:54 AM   #279 
   Yes, we can, and yes, we should. Well said. n/t  Unvanguard   Aug-08-09 11:11 AM   #151 
   all that being said, to acknowledge the harm done by our Bombs-  Bluerthanblue   Aug-07-09 10:07 PM   #7 
   Well said...August 6 and 9 are for the remembrance of the only use of nuclear weapons.  godai   Aug-07-09 10:20 PM   #12 
   I do not minimize the suffering endured by civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  snagglepuss   Aug-07-09 10:41 PM   #24 
   yes, I believe you do not only minimize it, but try and deflect  Bluerthanblue   Aug-07-09 11:45 PM   #55 
      Why You Feel, Ma'am, That Fire-Storm 'Doesn't Compare' To Atomic Detonation Quite Escapes Me  The Magistrate   Aug-08-09 12:02 AM   #59 
      have you seen the results of the radiation on the populations ?  Bluerthanblue   Aug-08-09 12:47 AM   #66 
         None Of That, Ma'am, Is News To Me  The Magistrate   Aug-08-09 02:51 AM   #85 
      +1. great post, i wish i could rec it. nt  inna   Aug-09-09 11:36 AM   #247 
   I don't believe anything in the OP indicates that I am using one  snagglepuss   Aug-08-09 01:26 AM   #75 
   One atrocity has nothing to do with each other.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Aug-07-09 10:08 PM   #8 
   Actually, Sir, There Is A Direct Connection  The Magistrate   Aug-07-09 10:28 PM   #15 
   Yeah, yeah, yeah, butterfly flaps its wings, hurricane other side of the world.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Aug-07-09 10:31 PM   #19 
   No, Sir, It Is Cold Fact  The Magistrate   Aug-07-09 10:35 PM   #21 
   That Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the logical consequence of Nanjing?  HiFructosePronSyrup   Aug-07-09 10:37 PM   #22 
   Do You Seriously Pretend It Was Not, Sir?  The Magistrate   Aug-07-09 10:44 PM   #27 
      Pearl Harbor, not atrocities in China, got the US into the war against Japan.  godai   Aug-07-09 10:47 PM   #29 
      There was a China Lobby in the U.S. after Nanking  aint_no_life_nowhere   Aug-07-09 10:58 PM   #40 
      Then You Need, Sir, To Inform Yourself Better On This Passage Of History  The Magistrate   Aug-07-09 11:00 PM   #41 
      To repeat, Pearl Harbor resulted in the US declaration of War against Japan.  godai   Aug-07-09 11:06 PM   #44 
         And Pearl Harbor Resulted From the Train Of Events Presented Above, Sir  The Magistrate   Aug-07-09 11:09 PM   #46 
         No, Pearl Harbor resulted from the US oil embargo.  godai   Aug-07-09 11:13 PM   #48 
            Which, Sir, Resulted From The Train Of Events Described Above  The Magistrate   Aug-07-09 11:18 PM   #50 
            WTF?!?!?!  TankLV   Aug-08-09 03:01 AM   #90 
         It would have just been a matter of time  aint_no_life_nowhere   Aug-07-09 11:13 PM   #47 
         And Pearl Harbor happened  verges   Aug-08-09 11:18 PM   #215 
      Then your belief is WRONG. The US spent many YEARS trying to "persuade" the BRUTAL Japanese  TankLV   Aug-08-09 02:59 AM   #88 
      Some people can't accept the have been clueless on a topic for years.  Statistical   Aug-08-09 10:11 AM   #131 
         Well said.  Dreamer Tatum   Aug-09-09 01:46 PM   #266 
      Pearl harbor WAS BECAUSE of an oil embargo  Confusious   Aug-08-09 04:53 AM   #100 
      And Pear Harbor was in response to America's  hack89   Aug-08-09 10:00 AM   #128 
      No, and it's a common little logical fallacy...  HiFructosePronSyrup   Aug-07-09 10:51 PM   #33 
         Cute, Ma'am, But No Cigar: What You Are Doing Is A sort Of 'Victim Masquerade'  The Magistrate   Aug-07-09 11:04 PM   #43 
         Well said. It was a 6 week pillage and rape vacation for "hard working troops".  Statistical   Aug-08-09 10:15 AM   #133 
         The study of history is a HATE CRIME!11!!1!!11!!  Romulox   Aug-08-09 01:10 PM   #165 
   I think it's clear to everyone  noamnety   Aug-08-09 03:48 PM   #184 
      You Know, Sir, One Of These Days Cut-And Paste Artists Will Have To Provide Dates For These Quotes  The Magistrate   Aug-08-09 04:06 PM   #185 
         I'm agreeing with you completely  noamnety   Aug-08-09 04:34 PM   #187 
            Comedy, Sir, is Best Left To Professionals....  The Magistrate   Aug-08-09 04:37 PM   #188 
            Oh this is rich. As I observed earlier you clearly have no handle on the facts nor  snagglepuss   Aug-08-09 04:50 PM   #189 
               Oh stop. I'm agreeing with him.  noamnety   Aug-08-09 05:00 PM   #190 
                  Jokes, Sir, Divide Into Those Which Are Always Funny, And Those Which Are Funny Only Once....  The Magistrate   Aug-08-09 05:04 PM   #191 
   So there is no direct connection between brutal imperialistic expansion and occupation  hack89   Aug-08-09 09:51 AM   #120 
   Nonsense, Sir.  ShamelessHussy   Aug-07-09 10:33 PM   #20 
      Not In The Slightest, Ma'am  The Magistrate   Aug-07-09 10:37 PM   #23 
         Well stated, Magistrate!  neverforget   Aug-08-09 12:10 AM   #61 
         Hear. Hear. nt  snagglepuss   Aug-08-09 02:07 AM   #83 
         I say old man, WELL DONE!  Confusious   Aug-08-09 04:56 AM   #101 
         Well played! eom  Hobarticus   Aug-08-09 10:53 AM   #142 
   Direct connection  Confusious   Aug-08-09 04:51 AM   #99 
   Maybe Truman did, maybe he didn't, but  Dreamer Tatum   Aug-09-09 01:49 PM   #267 
   Unit 731 - the Japanese were developing weapons of mass destruction  aint_no_life_nowhere   Aug-07-09 10:13 PM   #9 
   If I recall correctly, a deal was made with the US military  steaa   Aug-08-09 01:28 PM   #167 
   You are correct about Unit 731.  greguganus   Aug-08-09 09:00 PM   #207 
   The unspoken tragedy of H&N which I wanted my OP to address  snagglepuss   Aug-09-09 08:55 PM   #275 
   Interesting...  The Mailman   Aug-07-09 10:30 PM   #17 
   the same kind of atrocities Bush committed.  alarimer   Aug-08-09 01:17 AM   #73 
      I was thinking  The Mailman   Aug-08-09 02:20 PM   #171 
   dp  The Mailman   Aug-07-09 10:30 PM   #18 
   NOTHING justifies a nuclear bomb that killed innocent people  proud2BlibKansan   Aug-07-09 10:43 PM   #26 
   That, Ma'am, Is Not Even A Good Bumper-Sticker, Let Alone A Considered View Of The Events  The Magistrate   Aug-07-09 10:46 PM   #28 
   I'm not writing a bumper sticker  proud2BlibKansan   Aug-07-09 10:52 PM   #35 
   This apparently happens every August 6. I thought it was over for this year until this post.  godai   Aug-07-09 10:55 PM   #37 
   How nice the want to move on and shake off their past. In todays Korea Herald,  snagglepuss   Aug-08-09 12:41 AM   #65 
   Apparently!  The Mailman   Aug-07-09 10:55 PM   #38 
   Actually, Ma'am, That Is All You Are Doing  The Magistrate   Aug-07-09 11:06 PM   #45 
      Stuff it, Sir  proud2BlibKansan   Aug-08-09 07:29 AM   #109 
         He is already overstuffed and inflated.  Bonobo   Aug-08-09 10:36 AM   #140 
         Now There, Sir, Is A Text-Book Overthrow Of A Point Pressed With Fact And Logic....  The Magistrate   Aug-08-09 12:21 PM   #158 
         Touche Magistrate.  snagglepuss   Aug-08-09 12:31 PM   #159 
         Two wrongs never make a right  Ichingcarpenter   Aug-09-09 04:07 AM   #233 
            Ah, But Three Do, Sir...  The Magistrate   Aug-09-09 11:47 AM   #251 
         Your Decision To Blind Yourself, Sir, Neither Concerns, Interests, Or Binds Me  The Magistrate   Aug-08-09 12:19 PM   #157 
         +1. exactly. bravo.  inna   Aug-09-09 12:09 PM   #255 
   I think you're missing the point.  Unvanguard   Aug-08-09 10:50 AM   #141 
      Your Well-Reasoned Comment, Sir, Is Much Appreciated  The Magistrate   Aug-08-09 01:13 PM   #166 
         Well, there are a few separate questions here.  Unvanguard   Aug-08-09 02:33 PM   #174 
            Our Views, then, Sir, Would Seem To Be Largely Similar, Or At Least To Have Substantial Overlap  The Magistrate   Aug-08-09 03:10 PM   #178 
   But there are those who have a need to rationalize this unique American use of nuclear weapons. n/t  godai   Aug-07-09 10:51 PM   #34 
   Nothing justifies deliberately misquoting an OP.  snagglepuss   Aug-07-09 11:28 PM   #53 
   What's next? The Germans were justified in murdering Jews?  proud2BlibKansan   Aug-08-09 07:31 AM   #110 
      Oh, Do Expand On That One, Ma'am....  The Magistrate   Aug-08-09 02:12 PM   #170 
   Well Said, Ma'am!  ShamelessHussy   Aug-07-09 11:34 PM   #54 
   But we're Americans, everything we do is ALWAYS justified.  alarimer   Aug-08-09 01:19 AM   #74 
   Tell who gives a shit about the 30 million people Japan killed. Who gives a  snagglepuss   Aug-08-09 02:05 AM   #82 
      They people that were killed in Hiroshima had nothing to do with that.  alarimer   Aug-08-09 10:30 AM   #137 
   It was justified.  proteus_lives   Aug-08-09 04:10 AM   #94 
   Just out of curiosity, what would *you* have done?  Marr   Aug-09-09 01:34 PM   #265 
   I'm glad you posted this.  Gemini Cat   Aug-07-09 10:57 PM   #39 
   Thanks for that feedback. I'm really susrprised by some of the reactions.  snagglepuss   Aug-08-09 12:30 AM   #63 
   my dad was in the army in WWII - mostly in New Guinea but the Philippines too for a bit  nini   Aug-07-09 11:13 PM   #49 
   What Japan did in China indirectly led to the dropping of the Atomic Bomb.  4lbs   Aug-07-09 11:22 PM   #51 
   Thank you for sharing  Fleet   Aug-07-09 11:46 PM   #56 
   I am surprised by all the flack this OP created. Thanks for your comments.  snagglepuss   Aug-08-09 12:11 AM   #62 
   dp.... minds out of the gutter, that's double post  Fleet   Aug-07-09 11:47 PM   #57 
   Let them grieve ... war sucks.  GodlyDemocrat   Aug-08-09 12:32 AM   #64 
   My issue is that most people don't know half about what Japan did.  snagglepuss   Aug-08-09 01:49 AM   #81 
   You have described War as it has Ever been fought. Raping, Pillaging,  yodermon   Aug-08-09 12:49 AM   #67 
   Recommend  TexasObserver   Aug-08-09 12:54 AM   #69 
   K&R  kiva   Aug-08-09 01:13 AM   #72 
   By this principle, what should be an appropriate response to the War of Aggression against Iraq  patrice   Aug-08-09 09:41 AM   #116 
   The Japanese, sadly, have a very selective cultural memory  Rabrrrrrr   Aug-08-09 01:30 AM   #76 
   Classic example  ShamelessHussy   Aug-08-09 01:39 AM   #78 
      You don't really know anything about the Japanese, do you?  Rabrrrrrr   Aug-08-09 01:44 AM   #79 
         I have actually heard scholars of Japan say what you just argued, Rabrrrrrr  anneboleyn   Aug-08-09 05:28 AM   #103 
            And I live in Japan part of the year, and my SO is Japanese  Rabrrrrrr   Aug-08-09 09:14 AM   #113 
   Thanks for posting this , snagglepuss. It's too easy to armchair quarterback sixty  Vidar   Aug-08-09 01:47 AM   #80 
   Thank you for that feedback. I am really surprised at how much rancor this  snagglepuss   Aug-08-09 02:42 AM   #84 
   Thank You! How easy it is for the apologists to IGNORE this "inconvenient" TRUTH!!!  TankLV   Aug-08-09 02:54 AM   #86 
   I love a thread where The Magistrate posts more than once. Thanks for the thread.  Morning Dew   Aug-08-09 03:00 AM   #89 
   Thanks Snaggle for your research and links...  hayu_lol   Aug-08-09 04:49 AM   #98 
   K&R!!  virginia mountainman   Aug-08-09 04:15 AM   #95 
   Great post!  proteus_lives   Aug-08-09 04:20 AM   #96 
   Massmurder of innocents because the more powerful want to extend their power is certainly  ConsAreLiars   Aug-08-09 05:19 AM   #102 
   It Was Not Over, Sir  The Magistrate   Aug-08-09 05:33 AM   #105 
   Eisenhower held my view.  ConsAreLiars   Aug-09-09 03:30 AM   #226 
   Your fallacy is that you assume it was over.  Statistical   Aug-08-09 09:46 AM   #118 
      See my post #226 just above yours (nt)  ConsAreLiars   Aug-09-09 03:32 AM   #227 
   I knew very little of this. Thank you.  EFerrari   Aug-08-09 05:28 AM   #104 
   It Is, Unfortunately, Little Known, And Even Less Appreciated, Ma'am, Here In The West  The Magistrate   Aug-08-09 05:41 AM   #106 
      I'm watching Iris Chang on BookTV speak about her book, Rape.  EFerrari   Aug-08-09 06:20 PM   #198 
         Thank You, Ma'am: I Will Keep An Eye Towards It  The Magistrate   Aug-08-09 09:53 PM   #211 
   Ah, the good old "blame the victim" gambit...  regnaD kciN   Aug-08-09 06:13 AM   #107 
   You Are The Second Person To Try That Puerile Wheeze In This Discussion, Sir  The Magistrate   Aug-08-09 06:17 AM   #108 
   Thanks for your posts here, Magistrate! Cogent, true, accurate - and "puerile wheeze" is lol!  Rabrrrrrr   Aug-08-09 09:20 AM   #114 
   Indeed. It wasn't a war we wanted, but one we had to fight.  TexasObserver   Aug-08-09 09:59 AM   #127 
   "puerile wheeze" lol!  Hassin Bin Sober   Aug-08-09 10:34 AM   #139 
   wow  patrice   Aug-08-09 09:55 AM   #126 
   An outstanding OP, and educational thead. Thank you. nt  Obamanaut   Aug-08-09 08:40 AM   #112 
   A belated thank you. I am astonded that it has received so much flack  snagglepuss   Aug-09-09 09:12 PM   #276 
   "It was justified." "They started it. We ended it." So, what would be a just response to Shock&Awe?  patrice   Aug-08-09 09:28 AM   #115 
   Exactly.  bahrbearian   Aug-08-09 09:51 AM   #122 
   That wasn't the point. See #123 n/t  Statistical   Aug-08-09 09:53 AM   #125 
   You are missing the point (or just projecting).  Statistical   Aug-08-09 09:52 AM   #123 
   This is about dropping a Bomb on Civilians.  bahrbearian   Aug-08-09 10:14 AM   #132 
      Exactly. It was the fastest way to stop the Imperial Army.  Statistical   Aug-08-09 10:21 AM   #135 
         Did you not hear ,Einsinhower stated they were ready to surrender before the Bomb  bahrbearian   Aug-08-09 10:26 AM   #136 
            "surrender" vs surrender.  Statistical   Aug-08-09 10:33 AM   #138 
            Hindsight is awesome that way....  Hobarticus   Aug-08-09 11:02 AM   #146 
            The Statement, Ma'am, Was Made Many, Many Years After The Event  The Magistrate   Aug-08-09 02:23 PM   #172 
               As is yours however his & other military leaders who where there at the time cary much more weight  ShamelessHussy   Aug-08-09 02:59 PM   #176 
               At Least, Ma'am, You Are Giving the Search Engines a Work-Out....  The Magistrate   Aug-08-09 03:12 PM   #179 
                  I do my best to provide relevant information to support my views  ShamelessHussy   Aug-08-09 03:17 PM   #180 
                     And A Poor Best It Is, Too, Ma'am....  The Magistrate   Aug-08-09 03:27 PM   #181 
                        Thank you for illustrating my point  ShamelessHussy   Aug-08-09 03:34 PM   #182 
                        You Have Said You Are Breaking Off Several Times Already, Ma'am, And Yet, Here You Are....  The Magistrate   Aug-08-09 03:39 PM   #183 
                        En guard Magistrate. Which might I ask of your posts are more  snagglepuss   Aug-08-09 04:21 PM   #186 
               Don't call me Ma'am ,, Bitch.  bahrbearian   Aug-08-09 10:59 PM   #214 
                  You Know, Ma'am, It Would Probably Be Worth Alerting On This, But Best To Let It Stand  The Magistrate   Aug-09-09 11:04 AM   #237 
                     Game. Set. Match.  neverforget   Aug-09-09 02:37 PM   #269 
   Absolutely nothing do with the OP, thanks for playing. eom  Hobarticus   Aug-08-09 10:55 AM   #144 
      how clever! pardon me if I'm somewhat under-whelmed by your sycophantic lack of any kind of case  patrice   Aug-08-09 11:08 AM   #150 
         I don't think sycophantic is a good term to use here, but I'll play...  Hobarticus   Aug-08-09 11:41 AM   #154 
            The fact that the 30 million deaths are victims of fascism is paramont.  snagglepuss   Aug-09-09 02:22 PM   #268 
   Excellent post.. nt  hack89   Aug-08-09 09:45 AM   #117 
   So, it's not about what is Just, but, rather, what works. But, what if it hadn't worked?  patrice   Aug-08-09 10:10 AM   #130 
   K&R  closeupready   Aug-08-09 10:16 AM   #134 
   You forgot Poland.  H2O Man   Aug-08-09 10:54 AM   #143 
   I don't understand how Poland factors into a thread about Japanese atrocities.  snagglepuss   Aug-08-09 11:32 AM   #152 
   "the Japanese to this day refuse to fully acknowledge their guilt."  noamnety   Aug-08-09 10:56 AM   #145 
   Ouch. n/t  Unvanguard   Aug-08-09 11:04 AM   #148 
   Don't forget "Long Live the South!"  patrice   Aug-08-09 11:04 AM   #149 
   So if you are concerned and rightly so about harm inflicted on First Nations  snagglepuss   Aug-08-09 12:00 PM   #156 
   logic problem in your post  noamnety   Aug-08-09 12:34 PM   #161 
      Glaring lack of historical fact in yours. Japan killed 30 MILLION people, not POWS  snagglepuss   Aug-08-09 01:03 PM   #162 
   It would be a better analogy if we claimed Columbus was a victim at the hands of Native Americans  Romulox   Aug-08-09 01:07 PM   #163 
   "I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal." -Curtis Lemay  hedgehog   Aug-08-09 11:04 AM   #147 
   DING.DING. DING . You have hit the nail on the head. H&N commemorations  snagglepuss   Aug-09-09 12:21 PM   #260 
   My stand these days is quite simple... you want to remember  nadinbrzezinski   Aug-08-09 11:37 AM   #153 
   That Some Do, Ma'am  The Magistrate   Aug-08-09 05:27 PM   #192 
   We don't hear about it because the collective consciousness thinks they have atoned.  lumberjack_jeff   Aug-08-09 11:57 AM   #155 
   The Chinese, not the Japanese, are ascendant. *They* have not forgotten what Japan did in WWII  Romulox   Aug-08-09 01:08 PM   #164 
   Sigh. It's not a contest.  BlooInBloo   Aug-08-09 01:30 PM   #168 
   +1  Hansel   Aug-08-09 02:24 PM   #173 
   +2  proud2BlibKansan   Aug-08-09 05:36 PM   #193 
   The war couldn't end until the United States proved it could be just as wretched as the enemy.  Umbral   Aug-08-09 02:52 PM   #175 
   Racing the Enemy: Stalin, Truman, and the Surrender of Japan (2005) by Tsuyoshi Hasegawa  ShamelessHussy   Aug-08-09 03:08 PM   #177 
   What more do you want?  AsahinaKimi   Aug-08-09 05:46 PM   #194 
   some here wish to pretend that the one nation on earth to ever  Warren Stupidity   Aug-08-09 06:18 PM   #197 
   A formal apology would be a good thing. The governments of both  EFerrari   Aug-08-09 06:29 PM   #199 
   Portraits of Manzanar  AsahinaKimi   Aug-08-09 07:00 PM   #200 
   Pitiable, Ma'am  The Magistrate   Aug-08-09 08:40 PM   #206 
   I am asking what more do you want...  AsahinaKimi   Aug-08-09 09:04 PM   #208 
   Nowhere Near Enough Was, Or Has Now Been, Done, Ma'am  The Magistrate   Aug-08-09 09:39 PM   #210 
      so you believe there should have been  AsahinaKimi   Aug-09-09 02:05 AM   #218 
         The Japanese would have loved those.  proteus_lives   Aug-09-09 02:16 AM   #220 
         Everyone of them?  AsahinaKimi   Aug-09-09 02:25 AM   #221 
            What hate? This is merely facts.  proteus_lives   Aug-09-09 03:28 AM   #225 
            I am not uncomfortable about the truth.  AsahinaKimi   Aug-09-09 05:03 AM   #235 
            Hatred? Please be so kind to state which posts you refer to. I hope you have  snagglepuss   Aug-09-09 12:52 PM   #262 
         That, Ma'am, Is Simply Hysterical Distortion  The Magistrate   Aug-09-09 11:01 AM   #236 
            Ironic to hear someone ignoring crimes while accusing others of ignoring crimes.  Bonobo   Aug-09-09 11:20 AM   #240 
               You Do Not Even Take That Statement Seriously Yourself, Sir....  The Magistrate   Aug-09-09 11:29 AM   #244 
                  Not at all.  Bonobo   Aug-09-09 11:33 AM   #245 
                  Again, Sir, Utter Nonesense  The Magistrate   Aug-09-09 11:43 AM   #250 
                     I agree that the bomb does not absolve the guilt of Japanese crimes. Similarly...  Bonobo   Aug-09-09 11:55 AM   #252 
                        War, Sir, And Revenge, Will Continue On This Earth Quite Independent Of Me....  The Magistrate   Aug-09-09 12:12 PM   #256 
                           You can claim that bombing an innocent, urban population was necessary?  Bonobo   Aug-09-09 12:17 PM   #258 
                              Spoken, Sir, Like A Man Who Has Never Given Six Minutes Consecutive Thought To The Problem....  The Magistrate   Aug-09-09 12:21 PM   #259 
                                 The point at which we disagree is this one.  Bonobo   Aug-09-09 12:44 PM   #261 
                                    well stated  fascisthunter   Aug-09-09 02:47 PM   #270 
                                    Welcome To My World, Son  The Magistrate   Aug-09-09 02:57 PM   #273 
                  full regalia  datasuspect   Aug-11-09 07:27 AM   #278 
   I have read that 75% of American POWs of the Japanese never came back alive  aint_no_life_nowhere   Aug-08-09 11:51 PM   #216 
   We want the Japanese to acknowledge the Rape of China and Korea.  proteus_lives   Aug-09-09 02:12 AM   #219 
      again,,,  AsahinaKimi   Aug-09-09 02:32 AM   #222 
         Yet they continue to visit the Yasukuni Shrine.  proteus_lives   Aug-09-09 03:07 AM   #223 
            Is there something wrong with honoring your dead?  AsahinaKimi   Aug-09-09 03:11 AM   #224 
               Nothing wrong with honoring the dead.  proteus_lives   Aug-09-09 03:35 AM   #228 
                  Gunshin ..  AsahinaKimi   Aug-09-09 03:54 AM   #230 
   If only I had a sock puppet  stranger81   Aug-08-09 08:28 PM   #205 
   Article 9 of Japanese Constitution states that  kgnu_fan   Aug-08-09 10:34 PM   #212 
   kr  verges   Aug-09-09 12:30 AM   #217 
   NHK's Finest Hour: Japan's Official Record of Chinese Forced Labor  DainBramaged   Aug-09-09 03:51 AM   #229 
   I wasn't aware that anyone was forgetting about Japanese atrocities...  Violet_Crumble   Aug-09-09 03:58 AM   #231 
   I think H&N commemorations should be framed as a commemoration of  snagglepuss   Aug-09-09 11:39 AM   #248 
      Here's a difference. We did Hiroshima and Nagasaki. So WE must reflect on it.  Bonobo   Aug-09-09 12:08 PM   #254 
         We should reflect on the fact the fascist ideology embraced by the Japanese  snagglepuss   Aug-09-09 01:12 PM   #263 
   Japan remembers Chinese who died through forced labour  DainBramaged   Aug-09-09 04:03 AM   #232 
   I am stunned by this OP and all the support it's getting. Those Japanese civilians  ecstatic   Aug-09-09 11:07 AM   #238 
   It shows we are a far sicker country than them.  Bonobo   Aug-09-09 11:16 AM   #239 
   Agree  Orwellian_Ghost   Aug-09-09 11:24 AM   #242 
   But Neither Stunned Nor Educated, Apparently, Ma'am, By It Content....  The Magistrate   Aug-09-09 12:15 PM   #257 
      what's with all the pomposity and condescension?  inna   Aug-09-09 01:20 PM   #264 
   "The grave injustice of COMMEMORATING civilian victims"???  inna   Aug-09-09 11:25 AM   #243 
   Yes, how dare anyone commemorate victims!!!  Bonobo   Aug-09-09 11:34 AM   #246 
   "Wouldn't be prudent" to commemorate My Lai either  tj2001   Aug-09-09 11:41 AM   #249 
   its a bit sociopathic actually  fascisthunter   Aug-09-09 02:50 PM   #271 
      Care To Expand On That, Sir?  The Magistrate   Aug-09-09 05:14 PM   #274 
         It's pretty self explanatory by what I meant  fascisthunter   Aug-10-09 12:10 PM   #277 
   Yes... never commemorate victims, especially the US's victims  fascisthunter   Aug-09-09 02:54 PM   #272 
 

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