 |
Edited on Sat Aug-08-09 01:44 PM by The Magistrate
That the events under discussion were evil in themselves, and certainly deplorable considered in isolation, is beyond argument.
Unfortunately, that is not always a sufficient consideration in prosecuting war. The over-riding ethical imperative in war is to attempt to inflict the minimum degree of cruelty necessary to bring the thing to a victorious conclusion. One has no business engaging in the enterprise at all if one is not convinced the end signified by victory is an improvement of the situation from what it was when the war commenced. On this, obviously, there can be a great deal of debate, and necessarily considerable disagreement on the part of the combatant powers, and one can only be guided by one's own values. In the instance of the Second World War, it is impossible for me to see the war aims of the Axis powers as good, or indeed as anything but evil in the extreme.
There are two elements to this discussion, one of which has been gone into at some length, while the other has not been touched on at all. The former is the fact that the atrocious conduct of Imperial Japan commenced the war in the Pacific, and so brought with some inevitability, considering the actual balance of material forces, ghastly horrors down on the populace of the Home Islands. The latter, unremarked so far, is consideration of what is needed to break the power of an aggressor state, and what was available to the military art of the time.
It is an unfortunate fact that there is no way to assail a government in the era of total war without doing great harm to the population it governs. The capability to manufacture and distribute weapons, and to fuel the machines of war and transport, and to feed soldiers and workers engaged in war manufacture, are the keys to the business. In our present day, these things can be done with some degree of precision, but in the period of the Second World War, only very blunt instruments were available. Blockade which cuts off importation of food and fuel and raw materials imposes malnutrition on the civilian populace, which leads to disease outbreaks and a great increase in death rate. Aerial bombardment did well to hit a target the size of a city; effective bombing of factories proved to be largely a mirage. Ruining of rail networks, and harrying of road transport, conducted by fighter bombers when these could be brought in range, swept up many civilians and imposed a sort of 'internal blockade', with the same effects as the external form. It became quickly apparent to those directing the war effort against the Axis that there simply was no way to weaken the enemy save measures that killed a tremendous number of civilians, and of all ages and conditions. A peculiar twist of horror layers onto this with the understanding that the leadership of totalitarian regimes above all others is most impervious to the suffering inflicted on its civilian population, and so this will be slower to effect the councils of such a regime than it might others differently constituted.
But it remains the case that without the aggression of those regimes, which put on others the necessity of breaking them, and the atrocious conduct of that aggression, which steeled political will to see the thing through no matter what, none of the various sufferings endured by civilian populations in Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany would ever have occurred. It is also the case that what was inflicted on these civilian populations did materially shorten the war. Some of this suffering was directly attendant on actions against strictly defined military objectives, much of it was occasioned by more general measures intended to break the will to fight of both the populace and the leadership, both political and military. In the case of Imperial Japan, the best assessment of the results of the campaign as a whole is that it crippled military power outside the Home Islands, reduced popular fighting spirit, weakened the will to fight of the political leadership, but did not diminish the will to fight of the military leadership in any appreciable degree. The will of the population, in the Japanese system, was the most negligible factor, at least until some putative future collapse under immediate strain to wholesale desertion of soldiers and defections of civilians to an invading force. The military leadership believed it had in hand sufficient fighting power in the Home Islands to bloody an invasion badly, and was resolved to hold on till that crisis materialized: whether it was right or wrong in this assessment is immaterial to the effect it had on their actions.
The story of the last months of the Pacific War is the story of interplay between the weakening will to fight of the political leadership of Imperial Japan, and the resolve to continue fighting of the military leadership of Imperial Japan. In the Japanese system, the military leadership held control of the government, unless directly ordered to some course by the Emperor. In the wake of the catastrophic fire raid on Tokyo early in 1945, the will of the key figure, the Emperor, to continue the war began to weaken, but not sufficiently for him to command the military leadership to surrender. His attitude was sufficient to empower civilian political leadership to commence halting peace feelers, but these were opposed by the military leadership, and worthless without their support. The only peace terms the military leadership was willing to consider were wholly unacceptable to Imperial Japan's enemies, and rightly so, as they would have simply ratified much of Imperial Japan's conquests, and left the same military dominated political structures in place. The Emperor was not moved to directly order the military leadership to surrender until after the atomic bombs, and the Soviet invasion of Manchukuo. It is a dicey debate which of these was the dominant factor, but in any case, the Soviets did not move until August 9, after the atomic attacks.
|
The grave injustice of COMMEMORATING victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki |
snagglepuss |
Aug-07-09 09:56 PM |
#0 |

Well Said, Ma'am! |
The Magistrate |
Aug-07-09 09:57 PM |
#1 |
 
Thank you Magistrate. |
snagglepuss |
Aug-08-09 01:35 AM |
#77 |
 
What is your opinion on the Russian dimension? |
Alamuti Lotus |
Aug-08-09 03:08 AM |
#91 |

There Are Two Russian Dimensions, Sir |
The Magistrate |
Aug-08-09 03:42 AM |
#93 |

Interesting. How have you commemorated the rape of Nanjing? n/t |
ColbertWatcher |
Aug-07-09 09:59 PM |
#2 |
 
They are in my thoughts and I am posting this information to ensure that |
snagglepuss |
Aug-07-09 10:03 PM |
#4 |

That's a start, I guess. But, how do you commemorate it? |
ColbertWatcher |
Aug-07-09 10:42 PM |
#25 |

Definition of commemorate: to make honorable mention of. |
snagglepuss |
Aug-07-09 10:48 PM |
#30 |
 
Okay. So, to make sure I'm understanding you correctly ... |
ColbertWatcher |
Aug-07-09 11:24 PM |
#52 |

What is it you're smoking? Where have I ignored any calls of peace? |
snagglepuss |
Aug-07-09 11:59 PM |
#58 |

We do not justify what WE did just because the other guys did something bad first. |
ColbertWatcher |
Aug-08-09 02:56 AM |
#87 |
 
Who is doing that? Who is justifying what the US did because of what other guys did first? |
snagglepuss |
Aug-08-09 03:29 AM |
#92 |

You're doing that |
stranger81 |
Aug-08-09 06:08 PM |
#195 |

I'll ask you the same question what are you smoking? Nothing in the OP |
snagglepuss |
Aug-08-09 07:22 PM |
#201 |

Maybe you should reread your OP, titled "the grave injustice of commemorating the victims |
stranger81 |
Aug-08-09 07:53 PM |
#202 |

Obvisiously you're unable to read a complete sentence |
snagglepuss |
Aug-08-09 08:22 PM |
#203 |

hence the second portion of my sentence, |
stranger81 |
Aug-08-09 08:26 PM |
#204 |

Your initial response, post #93 clearly misrepresents my position. |
snagglepuss |
Aug-08-09 09:31 PM |
#209 |

how one can act as an apologist for nuking civilians |
inna |
Aug-09-09 11:22 AM |
#241 |

How you can completely mistate my position is beyond me. My position is clear |
snagglepuss |
Aug-09-09 12:03 PM |
#253 |

Some, apparently, make it Family Fun Day |
buzzycrumbhunger |
Aug-08-09 12:52 AM |
#68 |

none of that justifies the incineration of the cities of hiroshima and nagasaki |
Warren Stupidity |
Aug-07-09 10:03 PM |
#3 |
 
That isn't the issue. The issue is that the suffering of 30 million people has gone |
snagglepuss |
Aug-07-09 10:13 PM |
#10 |
 
Yes, dear. Of course. |
aquart |
Aug-07-09 10:15 PM |
#11 |
  
Why the snarky remark of "yes dear, of course"? As for Japanese being nice. |
snagglepuss |
Aug-07-09 10:27 PM |
#14 |
   
I can't believe you're getting such backlash from your post. |
gtar100 |
Aug-08-09 08:37 AM |
#111 |
   
Backtrack a little Snag, |
verges |
Aug-08-09 10:58 PM |
#213 |
  
It wasn't aimed at her, but it's still an incredibly snarky thing to call someone... |
Violet_Crumble |
Aug-09-09 04:09 AM |
#234 |
  
So, is it also an 'interesting side effect' that 9-11 will give us 'shiny new' skyscrapers? |
godai |
Aug-07-09 10:29 PM |
#16 |
  
Oops. I thought the response you made to Warren Stupidity was made |
snagglepuss |
Aug-08-09 12:55 AM |
#70 |
 
actually- yes, it did. |
dysfunctional press |
Aug-07-09 10:50 PM |
#32 |
  
You should read about the 90 years of so of US-Japan relations |
Art_from_Ark |
Aug-08-09 01:04 AM |
#71 |
 
Yeah right. |
proteus_lives |
Aug-08-09 04:45 AM |
#97 |
 
had commodore perry just left well enough alone... |
dysfunctional press |
Aug-08-09 09:49 AM |
#119 |
 
Amen |
proud2BlibKansan |
Aug-07-09 10:54 PM |
#36 |
 
If you want to feel guilty, fine. Use "I" not "we". nt |
imdjh |
Aug-08-09 09:51 AM |
#121 |

deliberately targeting civilians is a war crime |
Warren Stupidity |
Aug-08-09 12:33 PM |
#160 |

there are no civilians |
imdjh |
Aug-08-09 01:47 PM |
#169 |

have a nice day |
Warren Stupidity |
Aug-08-09 06:11 PM |
#196 |

You forgot about the Koreans.. |
ddeclue |
Aug-07-09 10:06 PM |
#5 |
 
I didn't forget Koreans. I mentioned them in my OP. |
snagglepuss |
Aug-07-09 10:21 PM |
#13 |
  
Sorry - I missed the one mention of them - you discussed China in detail but not so much the Koreans |
ddeclue |
Aug-07-09 10:49 PM |
#31 |
 
To adequately address what the Japanese did in all the countries it invaded |
snagglepuss |
Aug-07-09 11:03 PM |
#42 |
 
goes back further than that. |
mopinko |
Aug-08-09 10:09 AM |
#129 |

can we not condemn all atrocities and remember all victims? |
annm4peace |
Aug-07-09 10:06 PM |
#6 |
 
That's a nice saying but it's not always true... sometimes you have to face down force with force. |
ddeclue |
Aug-07-09 10:07 PM |
# |
 
+1 |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-08-09 12:03 AM |
#60 |
 
Not if you are trying to make it value neutral, no. |
imdjh |
Aug-08-09 09:53 AM |
#124 |
  
exactly |
Supersedeas |
Aug-11-09 08:54 AM |
#279 |
 
Yes, we can, and yes, we should. Well said. n/t |
Unvanguard |
Aug-08-09 11:11 AM |
#151 |

all that being said, to acknowledge the harm done by our Bombs- |
Bluerthanblue |
Aug-07-09 10:07 PM |
#7 |
 
Well said...August 6 and 9 are for the remembrance of the only use of nuclear weapons. |
godai |
Aug-07-09 10:20 PM |
#12 |
 
I do not minimize the suffering endured by civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. |
snagglepuss |
Aug-07-09 10:41 PM |
#24 |
  
yes, I believe you do not only minimize it, but try and deflect |
Bluerthanblue |
Aug-07-09 11:45 PM |
#55 |
 
Why You Feel, Ma'am, That Fire-Storm 'Doesn't Compare' To Atomic Detonation Quite Escapes Me |
The Magistrate |
Aug-08-09 12:02 AM |
#59 |
  
have you seen the results of the radiation on the populations ? |
Bluerthanblue |
Aug-08-09 12:47 AM |
#66 |
 
None Of That, Ma'am, Is News To Me |
The Magistrate |
Aug-08-09 02:51 AM |
#85 |
 
+1. great post, i wish i could rec it. nt |
inna |
Aug-09-09 11:36 AM |
#247 |
 
I don't believe anything in the OP indicates that I am using one |
snagglepuss |
Aug-08-09 01:26 AM |
#75 |

One atrocity has nothing to do with each other. |
HiFructosePronSyrup |
Aug-07-09 10:08 PM |
#8 |
 
Actually, Sir, There Is A Direct Connection |
The Magistrate |
Aug-07-09 10:28 PM |
#15 |
  
Yeah, yeah, yeah, butterfly flaps its wings, hurricane other side of the world. |
HiFructosePronSyrup |
Aug-07-09 10:31 PM |
#19 |
   
No, Sir, It Is Cold Fact |
The Magistrate |
Aug-07-09 10:35 PM |
#21 |
    
That Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the logical consequence of Nanjing? |
HiFructosePronSyrup |
Aug-07-09 10:37 PM |
#22 |
     
Do You Seriously Pretend It Was Not, Sir? |
The Magistrate |
Aug-07-09 10:44 PM |
#27 |
    
Pearl Harbor, not atrocities in China, got the US into the war against Japan. |
godai |
Aug-07-09 10:47 PM |
#29 |
     
There was a China Lobby in the U.S. after Nanking |
aint_no_life_nowhere |
Aug-07-09 10:58 PM |
#40 |
     
Then You Need, Sir, To Inform Yourself Better On This Passage Of History |
The Magistrate |
Aug-07-09 11:00 PM |
#41 |
      
To repeat, Pearl Harbor resulted in the US declaration of War against Japan. |
godai |
Aug-07-09 11:06 PM |
#44 |
     
And Pearl Harbor Resulted From the Train Of Events Presented Above, Sir |
The Magistrate |
Aug-07-09 11:09 PM |
#46 |
      
No, Pearl Harbor resulted from the US oil embargo. |
godai |
Aug-07-09 11:13 PM |
#48 |
     
Which, Sir, Resulted From The Train Of Events Described Above |
The Magistrate |
Aug-07-09 11:18 PM |
#50 |
     
WTF?!?!?! |
TankLV |
Aug-08-09 03:01 AM |
#90 |
     
It would have just been a matter of time |
aint_no_life_nowhere |
Aug-07-09 11:13 PM |
#47 |
     
And Pearl Harbor happened |
verges |
Aug-08-09 11:18 PM |
#215 |
     
Then your belief is WRONG. The US spent many YEARS trying to "persuade" the BRUTAL Japanese |
TankLV |
Aug-08-09 02:59 AM |
#88 |
      
Some people can't accept the have been clueless on a topic for years. |
Statistical |
Aug-08-09 10:11 AM |
#131 |
     
Well said. |
Dreamer Tatum |
Aug-09-09 01:46 PM |
#266 |
     
Pearl harbor WAS BECAUSE of an oil embargo |
Confusious |
Aug-08-09 04:53 AM |
#100 |
     
And Pear Harbor was in response to America's |
hack89 |
Aug-08-09 10:00 AM |
#128 |
    
No, and it's a common little logical fallacy... |
HiFructosePronSyrup |
Aug-07-09 10:51 PM |
#33 |
    
Cute, Ma'am, But No Cigar: What You Are Doing Is A sort Of 'Victim Masquerade' |
The Magistrate |
Aug-07-09 11:04 PM |
#43 |
     
Well said. It was a 6 week pillage and rape vacation for "hard working troops". |
Statistical |
Aug-08-09 10:15 AM |
#133 |
    
The study of history is a HATE CRIME!11!!1!!11!! |
Romulox |
Aug-08-09 01:10 PM |
#165 |
    
I think it's clear to everyone |
noamnety |
Aug-08-09 03:48 PM |
#184 |
   
You Know, Sir, One Of These Days Cut-And Paste Artists Will Have To Provide Dates For These Quotes |
The Magistrate |
Aug-08-09 04:06 PM |
#185 |
   
I'm agreeing with you completely |
noamnety |
Aug-08-09 04:34 PM |
#187 |
   
Comedy, Sir, is Best Left To Professionals.... |
The Magistrate |
Aug-08-09 04:37 PM |
#188 |
   
Oh this is rich. As I observed earlier you clearly have no handle on the facts nor |
snagglepuss |
Aug-08-09 04:50 PM |
#189 |
   
Oh stop. I'm agreeing with him. |
noamnety |
Aug-08-09 05:00 PM |
#190 |
   
Jokes, Sir, Divide Into Those Which Are Always Funny, And Those Which Are Funny Only Once.... |
The Magistrate |
Aug-08-09 05:04 PM |
#191 |
   
So there is no direct connection between brutal imperialistic expansion and occupation |
hack89 |
Aug-08-09 09:51 AM |
#120 |
  
Nonsense, Sir. |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-07-09 10:33 PM |
#20 |
 
Not In The Slightest, Ma'am |
The Magistrate |
Aug-07-09 10:37 PM |
#23 |
 
Well stated, Magistrate! |
neverforget |
Aug-08-09 12:10 AM |
#61 |
 
Hear. Hear. nt |
snagglepuss |
Aug-08-09 02:07 AM |
#83 |
 
I say old man, WELL DONE! |
Confusious |
Aug-08-09 04:56 AM |
#101 |
 
Well played! eom |
Hobarticus |
Aug-08-09 10:53 AM |
#142 |
 
Direct connection |
Confusious |
Aug-08-09 04:51 AM |
#99 |
 
Maybe Truman did, maybe he didn't, but |
Dreamer Tatum |
Aug-09-09 01:49 PM |
#267 |

Unit 731 - the Japanese were developing weapons of mass destruction |
aint_no_life_nowhere |
Aug-07-09 10:13 PM |
#9 |
 
If I recall correctly, a deal was made with the US military |
steaa |
Aug-08-09 01:28 PM |
#167 |
  
You are correct about Unit 731. |
greguganus |
Aug-08-09 09:00 PM |
#207 |
 
The unspoken tragedy of H&N which I wanted my OP to address |
snagglepuss |
Aug-09-09 08:55 PM |
#275 |

Interesting... |
The Mailman |
Aug-07-09 10:30 PM |
#17 |
 
the same kind of atrocities Bush committed. |
alarimer |
Aug-08-09 01:17 AM |
#73 |

I was thinking |
The Mailman |
Aug-08-09 02:20 PM |
#171 |

dp |
The Mailman |
Aug-07-09 10:30 PM |
#18 |

NOTHING justifies a nuclear bomb that killed innocent people |
proud2BlibKansan |
Aug-07-09 10:43 PM |
#26 |
 
That, Ma'am, Is Not Even A Good Bumper-Sticker, Let Alone A Considered View Of The Events |
The Magistrate |
Aug-07-09 10:46 PM |
#28 |
  
I'm not writing a bumper sticker |
proud2BlibKansan |
Aug-07-09 10:52 PM |
#35 |
   
This apparently happens every August 6. I thought it was over for this year until this post. |
godai |
Aug-07-09 10:55 PM |
#37 |
    
How nice the want to move on and shake off their past. In todays Korea Herald, |
snagglepuss |
Aug-08-09 12:41 AM |
#65 |
   
Apparently! |
The Mailman |
Aug-07-09 10:55 PM |
#38 |
   
Actually, Ma'am, That Is All You Are Doing |
The Magistrate |
Aug-07-09 11:06 PM |
#45 |
  
Stuff it, Sir |
proud2BlibKansan |
Aug-08-09 07:29 AM |
#109 |
  
He is already overstuffed and inflated. |
Bonobo |
Aug-08-09 10:36 AM |
#140 |
   
Now There, Sir, Is A Text-Book Overthrow Of A Point Pressed With Fact And Logic.... |
The Magistrate |
Aug-08-09 12:21 PM |
#158 |
    
Touche Magistrate. |
snagglepuss |
Aug-08-09 12:31 PM |
#159 |
   
Two wrongs never make a right |
Ichingcarpenter |
Aug-09-09 04:07 AM |
#233 |
  
Ah, But Three Do, Sir... |
The Magistrate |
Aug-09-09 11:47 AM |
#251 |
  
Your Decision To Blind Yourself, Sir, Neither Concerns, Interests, Or Binds Me |
The Magistrate |
Aug-08-09 12:19 PM |
#157 |
  
+1. exactly. bravo. |
inna |
Aug-09-09 12:09 PM |
#255 |
  
I think you're missing the point. |
Unvanguard |
Aug-08-09 10:50 AM |
#141 |
 
Your Well-Reasoned Comment, Sir, Is Much Appreciated |
The Magistrate |
Aug-08-09 01:13 PM |
#166 |
 
Well, there are a few separate questions here. |
Unvanguard |
Aug-08-09 02:33 PM |
#174 |
 
Our Views, then, Sir, Would Seem To Be Largely Similar, Or At Least To Have Substantial Overlap |
The Magistrate |
Aug-08-09 03:10 PM |
#178 |
 
But there are those who have a need to rationalize this unique American use of nuclear weapons. n/t |
godai |
Aug-07-09 10:51 PM |
#34 |
 
Nothing justifies deliberately misquoting an OP. |
snagglepuss |
Aug-07-09 11:28 PM |
#53 |
  
What's next? The Germans were justified in murdering Jews? |
proud2BlibKansan |
Aug-08-09 07:31 AM |
#110 |
 
Oh, Do Expand On That One, Ma'am.... |
The Magistrate |
Aug-08-09 02:12 PM |
#170 |
 
Well Said, Ma'am! |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-07-09 11:34 PM |
#54 |
 
But we're Americans, everything we do is ALWAYS justified. |
alarimer |
Aug-08-09 01:19 AM |
#74 |
  
Tell who gives a shit about the 30 million people Japan killed. Who gives a |
snagglepuss |
Aug-08-09 02:05 AM |
#82 |
 
They people that were killed in Hiroshima had nothing to do with that. |
alarimer |
Aug-08-09 10:30 AM |
#137 |
 
It was justified. |
proteus_lives |
Aug-08-09 04:10 AM |
#94 |
 
Just out of curiosity, what would *you* have done? |
Marr |
Aug-09-09 01:34 PM |
#265 |

I'm glad you posted this. |
Gemini Cat |
Aug-07-09 10:57 PM |
#39 |
 
Thanks for that feedback. I'm really susrprised by some of the reactions. |
snagglepuss |
Aug-08-09 12:30 AM |
#63 |

my dad was in the army in WWII - mostly in New Guinea but the Philippines too for a bit |
nini |
Aug-07-09 11:13 PM |
#49 |

What Japan did in China indirectly led to the dropping of the Atomic Bomb. |
4lbs |
Aug-07-09 11:22 PM |
#51 |

Thank you for sharing |
Fleet |
Aug-07-09 11:46 PM |
#56 |
 
I am surprised by all the flack this OP created. Thanks for your comments. |
snagglepuss |
Aug-08-09 12:11 AM |
#62 |

dp.... minds out of the gutter, that's double post |
Fleet |
Aug-07-09 11:47 PM |
#57 |

Let them grieve ... war sucks. |
GodlyDemocrat |
Aug-08-09 12:32 AM |
#64 |
 
My issue is that most people don't know half about what Japan did. |
snagglepuss |
Aug-08-09 01:49 AM |
#81 |

You have described War as it has Ever been fought. Raping, Pillaging, |
yodermon |
Aug-08-09 12:49 AM |
#67 |

Recommend |
TexasObserver |
Aug-08-09 12:54 AM |
#69 |

K&R |
kiva |
Aug-08-09 01:13 AM |
#72 |
 
By this principle, what should be an appropriate response to the War of Aggression against Iraq |
patrice |
Aug-08-09 09:41 AM |
#116 |

The Japanese, sadly, have a very selective cultural memory |
Rabrrrrrr |
Aug-08-09 01:30 AM |
#76 |
 
Classic example |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-08-09 01:39 AM |
#78 |

You don't really know anything about the Japanese, do you? |
Rabrrrrrr |
Aug-08-09 01:44 AM |
#79 |

I have actually heard scholars of Japan say what you just argued, Rabrrrrrr |
anneboleyn |
Aug-08-09 05:28 AM |
#103 |

And I live in Japan part of the year, and my SO is Japanese |
Rabrrrrrr |
Aug-08-09 09:14 AM |
#113 |

Thanks for posting this , snagglepuss. It's too easy to armchair quarterback sixty |
Vidar |
Aug-08-09 01:47 AM |
#80 |
 
Thank you for that feedback. I am really surprised at how much rancor this |
snagglepuss |
Aug-08-09 02:42 AM |
#84 |

Thank You! How easy it is for the apologists to IGNORE this "inconvenient" TRUTH!!! |
TankLV |
Aug-08-09 02:54 AM |
#86 |

I love a thread where The Magistrate posts more than once. Thanks for the thread. |
Morning Dew |
Aug-08-09 03:00 AM |
#89 |
 
Thanks Snaggle for your research and links... |
hayu_lol |
Aug-08-09 04:49 AM |
#98 |

K&R!! |
virginia mountainman |
Aug-08-09 04:15 AM |
#95 |

Great post! |
proteus_lives |
Aug-08-09 04:20 AM |
#96 |

Massmurder of innocents because the more powerful want to extend their power is certainly |
ConsAreLiars |
Aug-08-09 05:19 AM |
#102 |
 
It Was Not Over, Sir |
The Magistrate |
Aug-08-09 05:33 AM |
#105 |
  
Eisenhower held my view. |
ConsAreLiars |
Aug-09-09 03:30 AM |
#226 |
 
Your fallacy is that you assume it was over. |
Statistical |
Aug-08-09 09:46 AM |
#118 |

See my post #226 just above yours (nt) |
ConsAreLiars |
Aug-09-09 03:32 AM |
#227 |

I knew very little of this. Thank you. |
EFerrari |
Aug-08-09 05:28 AM |
#104 |
 
It Is, Unfortunately, Little Known, And Even Less Appreciated, Ma'am, Here In The West |
The Magistrate |
Aug-08-09 05:41 AM |
#106 |

I'm watching Iris Chang on BookTV speak about her book, Rape. |
EFerrari |
Aug-08-09 06:20 PM |
#198 |

Thank You, Ma'am: I Will Keep An Eye Towards It |
The Magistrate |
Aug-08-09 09:53 PM |
#211 |

Ah, the good old "blame the victim" gambit... |
regnaD kciN |
Aug-08-09 06:13 AM |
#107 |
 
You Are The Second Person To Try That Puerile Wheeze In This Discussion, Sir |
The Magistrate |
Aug-08-09 06:17 AM |
#108 |
  
Thanks for your posts here, Magistrate! Cogent, true, accurate - and "puerile wheeze" is lol! |
Rabrrrrrr |
Aug-08-09 09:20 AM |
#114 |
  
Indeed. It wasn't a war we wanted, but one we had to fight. |
TexasObserver |
Aug-08-09 09:59 AM |
#127 |
  
"puerile wheeze" lol! |
Hassin Bin Sober |
Aug-08-09 10:34 AM |
#139 |
 
wow |
patrice |
Aug-08-09 09:55 AM |
#126 |

An outstanding OP, and educational thead. Thank you. nt |
Obamanaut |
Aug-08-09 08:40 AM |
#112 |
 
A belated thank you. I am astonded that it has received so much flack |
snagglepuss |
Aug-09-09 09:12 PM |
#276 |

"It was justified." "They started it. We ended it." So, what would be a just response to Shock&Awe? |
patrice |
Aug-08-09 09:28 AM |
#115 |
 
Exactly. |
bahrbearian |
Aug-08-09 09:51 AM |
#122 |
  
That wasn't the point. See #123 n/t |
Statistical |
Aug-08-09 09:53 AM |
#125 |
 
You are missing the point (or just projecting). |
Statistical |
Aug-08-09 09:52 AM |
#123 |
  
This is about dropping a Bomb on Civilians. |
bahrbearian |
Aug-08-09 10:14 AM |
#132 |
 
Exactly. It was the fastest way to stop the Imperial Army. |
Statistical |
Aug-08-09 10:21 AM |
#135 |
 
Did you not hear ,Einsinhower stated they were ready to surrender before the Bomb |
bahrbearian |
Aug-08-09 10:26 AM |
#136 |
 
"surrender" vs surrender. |
Statistical |
Aug-08-09 10:33 AM |
#138 |
 
Hindsight is awesome that way.... |
Hobarticus |
Aug-08-09 11:02 AM |
#146 |
 
The Statement, Ma'am, Was Made Many, Many Years After The Event |
The Magistrate |
Aug-08-09 02:23 PM |
#172 |
 
As is yours however his & other military leaders who where there at the time cary much more weight |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-08-09 02:59 PM |
#176 |
  
At Least, Ma'am, You Are Giving the Search Engines a Work-Out.... |
The Magistrate |
Aug-08-09 03:12 PM |
#179 |
 
I do my best to provide relevant information to support my views |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-08-09 03:17 PM |
#180 |
 
And A Poor Best It Is, Too, Ma'am.... |
The Magistrate |
Aug-08-09 03:27 PM |
#181 |
 
Thank you for illustrating my point |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-08-09 03:34 PM |
#182 |
  
You Have Said You Are Breaking Off Several Times Already, Ma'am, And Yet, Here You Are.... |
The Magistrate |
Aug-08-09 03:39 PM |
#183 |
 
En guard Magistrate. Which might I ask of your posts are more |
snagglepuss |
Aug-08-09 04:21 PM |
#186 |
 
Don't call me Ma'am ,, Bitch. |
bahrbearian |
Aug-08-09 10:59 PM |
#214 |
 
You Know, Ma'am, It Would Probably Be Worth Alerting On This, But Best To Let It Stand |
The Magistrate |
Aug-09-09 11:04 AM |
#237 |
 
Game. Set. Match. |
neverforget |
Aug-09-09 02:37 PM |
#269 |
 
Absolutely nothing do with the OP, thanks for playing. eom |
Hobarticus |
Aug-08-09 10:55 AM |
#144 |

how clever! pardon me if I'm somewhat under-whelmed by your sycophantic lack of any kind of case |
patrice |
Aug-08-09 11:08 AM |
#150 |

I don't think sycophantic is a good term to use here, but I'll play... |
Hobarticus |
Aug-08-09 11:41 AM |
#154 |

The fact that the 30 million deaths are victims of fascism is paramont. |
snagglepuss |
Aug-09-09 02:22 PM |
#268 |

Excellent post.. nt |
hack89 |
Aug-08-09 09:45 AM |
#117 |

So, it's not about what is Just, but, rather, what works. But, what if it hadn't worked? |
patrice |
Aug-08-09 10:10 AM |
#130 |

K&R |
closeupready |
Aug-08-09 10:16 AM |
#134 |

You forgot Poland. |
H2O Man |
Aug-08-09 10:54 AM |
#143 |
 
I don't understand how Poland factors into a thread about Japanese atrocities. |
snagglepuss |
Aug-08-09 11:32 AM |
#152 |

"the Japanese to this day refuse to fully acknowledge their guilt." |
noamnety |
Aug-08-09 10:56 AM |
#145 |
 
Ouch. n/t |
Unvanguard |
Aug-08-09 11:04 AM |
#148 |
 
Don't forget "Long Live the South!" |
patrice |
Aug-08-09 11:04 AM |
#149 |
 
So if you are concerned and rightly so about harm inflicted on First Nations |
snagglepuss |
Aug-08-09 12:00 PM |
#156 |
  
logic problem in your post |
noamnety |
Aug-08-09 12:34 PM |
#161 |
 
Glaring lack of historical fact in yours. Japan killed 30 MILLION people, not POWS |
snagglepuss |
Aug-08-09 01:03 PM |
#162 |
 
It would be a better analogy if we claimed Columbus was a victim at the hands of Native Americans |
Romulox |
Aug-08-09 01:07 PM |
#163 |

"I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal." -Curtis Lemay |
hedgehog |
Aug-08-09 11:04 AM |
#147 |
 
DING.DING. DING . You have hit the nail on the head. H&N commemorations |
snagglepuss |
Aug-09-09 12:21 PM |
#260 |

My stand these days is quite simple... you want to remember |
nadinbrzezinski |
Aug-08-09 11:37 AM |
#153 |
 
That Some Do, Ma'am |
The Magistrate |
Aug-08-09 05:27 PM |
#192 |

We don't hear about it because the collective consciousness thinks they have atoned. |
lumberjack_jeff |
Aug-08-09 11:57 AM |
#155 |

The Chinese, not the Japanese, are ascendant. *They* have not forgotten what Japan did in WWII |
Romulox |
Aug-08-09 01:08 PM |
#164 |

Sigh. It's not a contest. |
BlooInBloo |
Aug-08-09 01:30 PM |
#168 |
 
+1 |
Hansel |
Aug-08-09 02:24 PM |
#173 |
 
+2 |
proud2BlibKansan |
Aug-08-09 05:36 PM |
#193 |

The war couldn't end until the United States proved it could be just as wretched as the enemy. |
Umbral |
Aug-08-09 02:52 PM |
#175 |

Racing the Enemy: Stalin, Truman, and the Surrender of Japan (2005) by Tsuyoshi Hasegawa |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-08-09 03:08 PM |
#177 |

What more do you want? |
AsahinaKimi |
Aug-08-09 05:46 PM |
#194 |
 
some here wish to pretend that the one nation on earth to ever |
Warren Stupidity |
Aug-08-09 06:18 PM |
#197 |
 
A formal apology would be a good thing. The governments of both |
EFerrari |
Aug-08-09 06:29 PM |
#199 |
 
Portraits of Manzanar |
AsahinaKimi |
Aug-08-09 07:00 PM |
#200 |
 
Pitiable, Ma'am |
The Magistrate |
Aug-08-09 08:40 PM |
#206 |
  
I am asking what more do you want... |
AsahinaKimi |
Aug-08-09 09:04 PM |
#208 |
   
Nowhere Near Enough Was, Or Has Now Been, Done, Ma'am |
The Magistrate |
Aug-08-09 09:39 PM |
#210 |
  
so you believe there should have been |
AsahinaKimi |
Aug-09-09 02:05 AM |
#218 |
  
The Japanese would have loved those. |
proteus_lives |
Aug-09-09 02:16 AM |
#220 |
   
Everyone of them? |
AsahinaKimi |
Aug-09-09 02:25 AM |
#221 |
  
What hate? This is merely facts. |
proteus_lives |
Aug-09-09 03:28 AM |
#225 |
   
I am not uncomfortable about the truth. |
AsahinaKimi |
Aug-09-09 05:03 AM |
#235 |
  
Hatred? Please be so kind to state which posts you refer to. I hope you have |
snagglepuss |
Aug-09-09 12:52 PM |
#262 |
  
That, Ma'am, Is Simply Hysterical Distortion |
The Magistrate |
Aug-09-09 11:01 AM |
#236 |
  
Ironic to hear someone ignoring crimes while accusing others of ignoring crimes. |
Bonobo |
Aug-09-09 11:20 AM |
#240 |
  
You Do Not Even Take That Statement Seriously Yourself, Sir.... |
The Magistrate |
Aug-09-09 11:29 AM |
#244 |
  
Not at all. |
Bonobo |
Aug-09-09 11:33 AM |
#245 |
   
Again, Sir, Utter Nonesense |
The Magistrate |
Aug-09-09 11:43 AM |
#250 |
  
I agree that the bomb does not absolve the guilt of Japanese crimes. Similarly... |
Bonobo |
Aug-09-09 11:55 AM |
#252 |
  
War, Sir, And Revenge, Will Continue On This Earth Quite Independent Of Me.... |
The Magistrate |
Aug-09-09 12:12 PM |
#256 |
  
You can claim that bombing an innocent, urban population was necessary? |
Bonobo |
Aug-09-09 12:17 PM |
#258 |
  
Spoken, Sir, Like A Man Who Has Never Given Six Minutes Consecutive Thought To The Problem.... |
The Magistrate |
Aug-09-09 12:21 PM |
#259 |
  
The point at which we disagree is this one. |
Bonobo |
Aug-09-09 12:44 PM |
#261 |
  
well stated |
fascisthunter |
Aug-09-09 02:47 PM |
#270 |
  
Welcome To My World, Son |
The Magistrate |
Aug-09-09 02:57 PM |
#273 |
  
full regalia |
datasuspect |
Aug-11-09 07:27 AM |
#278 |
  
I have read that 75% of American POWs of the Japanese never came back alive |
aint_no_life_nowhere |
Aug-08-09 11:51 PM |
#216 |
 
We want the Japanese to acknowledge the Rape of China and Korea. |
proteus_lives |
Aug-09-09 02:12 AM |
#219 |

again,,, |
AsahinaKimi |
Aug-09-09 02:32 AM |
#222 |

Yet they continue to visit the Yasukuni Shrine. |
proteus_lives |
Aug-09-09 03:07 AM |
#223 |

Is there something wrong with honoring your dead? |
AsahinaKimi |
Aug-09-09 03:11 AM |
#224 |

Nothing wrong with honoring the dead. |
proteus_lives |
Aug-09-09 03:35 AM |
#228 |

Gunshin .. |
AsahinaKimi |
Aug-09-09 03:54 AM |
#230 |

If only I had a sock puppet |
stranger81 |
Aug-08-09 08:28 PM |
#205 |

Article 9 of Japanese Constitution states that |
kgnu_fan |
Aug-08-09 10:34 PM |
#212 |

kr |
verges |
Aug-09-09 12:30 AM |
#217 |

NHK's Finest Hour: Japan's Official Record of Chinese Forced Labor |
DainBramaged |
Aug-09-09 03:51 AM |
#229 |

I wasn't aware that anyone was forgetting about Japanese atrocities... |
Violet_Crumble |
Aug-09-09 03:58 AM |
#231 |
 
I think H&N commemorations should be framed as a commemoration of |
snagglepuss |
Aug-09-09 11:39 AM |
#248 |

Here's a difference. We did Hiroshima and Nagasaki. So WE must reflect on it. |
Bonobo |
Aug-09-09 12:08 PM |
#254 |

We should reflect on the fact the fascist ideology embraced by the Japanese |
snagglepuss |
Aug-09-09 01:12 PM |
#263 |

Japan remembers Chinese who died through forced labour |
DainBramaged |
Aug-09-09 04:03 AM |
#232 |

I am stunned by this OP and all the support it's getting. Those Japanese civilians |
ecstatic |
Aug-09-09 11:07 AM |
#238 |
 
It shows we are a far sicker country than them. |
Bonobo |
Aug-09-09 11:16 AM |
#239 |
 
Agree |
Orwellian_Ghost |
Aug-09-09 11:24 AM |
#242 |
 
But Neither Stunned Nor Educated, Apparently, Ma'am, By It Content.... |
The Magistrate |
Aug-09-09 12:15 PM |
#257 |

what's with all the pomposity and condescension? |
inna |
Aug-09-09 01:20 PM |
#264 |

"The grave injustice of COMMEMORATING civilian victims"??? |
inna |
Aug-09-09 11:25 AM |
#243 |
 
Yes, how dare anyone commemorate victims!!! |
Bonobo |
Aug-09-09 11:34 AM |
#246 |
  
"Wouldn't be prudent" to commemorate My Lai either |
tj2001 |
Aug-09-09 11:41 AM |
#249 |
 
its a bit sociopathic actually |
fascisthunter |
Aug-09-09 02:50 PM |
#271 |

Care To Expand On That, Sir? |
The Magistrate |
Aug-09-09 05:14 PM |
#274 |

It's pretty self explanatory by what I meant |
fascisthunter |
Aug-10-09 12:10 PM |
#277 |

Yes... never commemorate victims, especially the US's victims |
fascisthunter |
Aug-09-09 02:54 PM |
#272 |