Donate to DU!
Democratic Underground Latest Threads
Latest
Greatest Threads
Greatest
Lobby
Lobby
Journals
Journals
Search
Search
Options
Options
Help
Help
Login
Login
Google

Reply #28: That is A Good Deal Weaker than You Seem To Think, Sir [View All]

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
First thread | Last thread
Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU
The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Fri Aug-07-09 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. That is A Good Deal Weaker than You Seem To Think, Sir
And it clearly illustrates the a-historical quality of your position.

While it is not my intention to engage the German element at any length, it is worth pointing out one very large fact you are over-looking. The Nazi war aim was exterminationist; the purpose of victory was to commence the slaughter of peoples in the east excess to the requirements of chattel slavery to create of the German population as a whole a leisure class of masters. This was not only stated openly, but put into practice in appreciable degree in occupied areas populated by Slavic peoples. This is not a justification of military necessity, which is to maintain some ghastly act is needed for military advantage that will bring victory closer, and thus be held to have the effect in the long run of lessening the totality of suffering. While there was a good deal of exterminationist rhetoric in the United States regarding the Japanese during World War Two, and there can be no doubt racial feelings played a role in our conduct of that war, this ceased on victory, and the occupation of Japan was not marked by wholesale killings and enslavement. There is thus a significant difference in kind in the war aims, and the sort of blurring you are attempting can only be done extracting the events from history, and disregarding actual factors in the situation.

Your statement of the Japanese war aim is similarly inaccurate. Imperial Japan from the last years of the nineteenth century pursued a policy of establishing Japanese dominion over East Asia, which it considered to be inhabited by inferior native races who ought to be put under a Japanese yoke. Western Imperialists were a stumbling block to this, but were considered similarly inferior as human material, and not a threat to Japan's existence, merely an obstacle to be over-come. The level of atrocity with which this pursued is, as others have stated here, not widely appreciated to this day outside Asia, any more than is its duration. A pattern of atrocity was clearly apparent from 1932 in Manchuria, in the conquest of that region and creation of the Manchukuo regime. Actions ranging from bayonetting wounded Chinese soldiers (uniformed regulars, not guerrillas) to reprisals for guerrilla activity against villagers deemed friendly to them ranging from burying a few persons alive to herding hundreds into corrals and opening fire on the mass with machine-guns are well attested in contemporary eye-witness reports. The first large-scale use of incendiaries against an urban population domiciled in wood and paper construction occurred early in 1932 in Shanghai, with raids from Japanese carrier planes on the 'Little Chapie' district, carried out at dawn when there would be the greatest assistance from hearth fires for breakfast, and produced a rolling sheet of flames reportedly a hundred feet high sweeping through the district, incinerating thousands. This established pattern escalated over intervening years in the occupation of parts of Inner Mongolia and northern China, and simply expanded in scope and scale with the onset of full-bore war with Nationalist China from the summer of 1937. Western opposition to this, particularly that of the U.S., may well have had self-interested elements, focusing on a disinclination to allow themselves to be frozen out of the economic pickings of the China market by any single power, and certainly not by an Oriental one, but it cannot rightly be classed either as aggression against Japan, or a threat to its existence. In practical fact, it was opposition, however mild, to a policy of atrocity and conquest on the part of Japan, which was by any honest reading of the situation an imperialist aggressor of the highest water.

This is the sort of thing one expects left and progressive people to be opposed to, and to denounce in strenuous terms, and to agitate for the defeat of when it is on-going. The problem which emerges is that generally there is no way to effectively oppose and bring to an end such a course of action by a state save military force applied through the medium of war. Persons who oppose war as a general thing are thus unable ever to bring effective opposition to this sort of behavior, since they recoil from the necessary implement. Once the necessary implement is wielded, they immediately begin to focus on what the society to which they belong does, and to view it as morally equivalent to the enemy, since both are employing the detested course of war. It is a position which, as a matter of practical fact, ranges the person alongside the aggressor, and assists the aggressor in his atrocious course.

Despite the Biblical injunction, much of life consists in doing evil in the hope good may come of it, and war employed against atrocious aggression, and in self-defense, is an extreme example of this. What it tends to do is shift the suffering from one set of shoulders to another. For some years in the Orient, it was only Chinese who were being burned alive in wholesale lots by aerial bombardment; by 1944 or so, it was Japanese who suffered this instead. Ruin and death in Japan spared great numbers of Chinese, Indonesians, Burmese, and various others in Japanese power. Forcing a surrender by Japan certainly saved a good many Japanese lives, as well as the lives of Allied soldiers. There is little doubt an invasion of Japan, fought to conclusion, would have taken on an exterminationist character.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
  The "if you start a war you don't get a say in how it finishes" pro-nuke argument... daedalus_dude  Aug-07-09 10:50 AM   #0 
   It Cannot 'Miss the Point Of the Discussion', Sir: There is No Point To The Discussion....  The Magistrate   Aug-07-09 10:55 AM   #1 
   +100  WeDidIt   Aug-07-09 01:30 PM   #14 
      It's not a pro-nuke argument, it's an anti-war argument.  timeforpeace   Aug-07-09 05:18 PM   #31 
   The only positive...  tjwash   Aug-07-09 11:07 AM   #2 
   Do the Japanese beat themselves up yearly over what they did in WWII?  WolverineDG   Aug-07-09 11:15 AM   #3 
   No, Sir, They Do Not  The Magistrate   Aug-07-09 12:45 PM   #4 
   That sounds a lot like what happens here when some Americans don't justify mass murder.  Tierra_y_Libertad   Aug-07-09 01:00 PM   #7 
   Do you consider using the bombs to end the war with Japan as equivalent to what Japan  Raskolnik   Aug-07-09 01:04 PM   #8 
   Yes. The "they do it so we do it" is just as immoral.  Tierra_y_Libertad   Aug-07-09 01:07 PM   #9 
      There are several problems with your post.  Raskolnik   Aug-07-09 01:29 PM   #12 
      Don't forget all the women & children held in concentration camps  WolverineDG   Aug-07-09 01:34 PM   #17 
      LOL  WolverineDG   Aug-07-09 01:32 PM   #15 
   The Problem With Engaging Some People On This Matter, Sir  The Magistrate   Aug-07-09 03:04 PM   #23 
      Justification for killing is cheap.  Tierra_y_Libertad   Aug-07-09 03:50 PM   #25 
         That is A Good Deal Weaker than You Seem To Think, Sir  The Magistrate   Aug-07-09 05:11 PM   #28 
   And after all the U.S. has done for Japan, too!  gratuitous   Aug-07-09 01:18 PM   #11 
   Would you care if Germany taught its citizens that it didn't really do anything wrong  Raskolnik   Aug-07-09 01:33 PM   #16 
      Only if we listen to other countries  gratuitous   Aug-07-09 02:09 PM   #18 
         That's where you and I differ, I guess.  Raskolnik   Aug-07-09 02:17 PM   #20 
            So we should dictate Germany's school curriculum  gratuitous   Aug-07-09 03:51 PM   #26 
               Who said anything about "dictating?"  Raskolnik   Aug-07-09 03:53 PM   #27 
   I mentioned this on another thread  WolverineDG   Aug-07-09 01:30 PM   #13 
   Many of the posters to these threads seem genuinely ignorant of the scale of Japan's war crimes...  Romulox   Aug-07-09 12:49 PM   #5 
   If that's the case, then the Iraqis would be justified in using nukes on us.  Tierra_y_Libertad   Aug-07-09 12:56 PM   #6 
   Japan's actions during the war were every bit as bad as the Nazis,  Raskolnik   Aug-07-09 01:18 PM   #10 
   Better PR campaign. Japan was far worse than Germany (genocide of 30 million people and worse)  Statistical   Aug-07-09 02:13 PM   #19 
      No fair. Putting things in context is cheating. n/t  Raskolnik   Aug-07-09 02:22 PM   #21 
   Or its like saying it would be okay for Iraq  montanto   Aug-07-09 02:54 PM   #22 
   But It Would Be, Sir: On What Ground Would You Disagree?  The Magistrate   Aug-07-09 03:05 PM   #24 
   All the more reason to make sure they never get their hands on them, eh?  NoPasaran   Aug-07-09 05:15 PM   #29 
   No it's not stupid... unprincipled pacifism that allows evil to go on is stupid...  ddeclue   Aug-07-09 05:18 PM   #30 
 

Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals  |  Links  |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2009 Democratic Underground, LLC