rug
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Thu Aug-06-09 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #70 |
| 86. A nation in the midst of civil war is in a precarious position to resist an invasion. |
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IF this scenario occurred and IF an invasion was necessary, it was not likely to be as bloody as X-Day contemplated.
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| -Peleiu, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Invading Japan would have been no picnic. |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 02:03 PM |
#0 |
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war crime. nt. |
endarkenment |
Aug-06-09 02:04 PM |
#1 |
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Agreed. Bombing Pearl Harbor, and invading Manchuria and Nanjing were war crimes. nt |
Captain Hilts |
Aug-06-09 02:05 PM |
#5 |
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Indeed. Lots of war crimes were committed. |
endarkenment |
Aug-06-09 03:43 PM |
#82 |
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Generational Judgement |
BeGoodDoGood |
Aug-06-09 02:56 PM |
#38 |
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It was the wrong policy and it was not necessary. |
endarkenment |
Aug-06-09 03:45 PM |
#84 |
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I'm really glad Big Fred didn't have to invade the mainland. He was training to do so. nt |
Captain Hilts |
Aug-06-09 07:25 PM |
#119 |
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Folks here just can't place themselves in the mindset of folks in 1945 |
Captain Hilts |
Aug-06-09 02:04 PM |
#2 |
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I agree |
zipplewrath |
Aug-06-09 02:14 PM |
#14 |
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"Its war folks. That's why we should avoid it" |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 02:26 PM |
#26 |
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Yeah nice quote. |
Statistical |
Aug-06-09 05:09 PM |
#115 |
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Your last sentence might be the best thing ever written. |
eyepaddle |
Aug-06-09 02:41 PM |
#34 |
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Exactly my point. |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 02:18 PM |
#19 |
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my father fought in the pacific |
dugaresa |
Aug-06-09 02:25 PM |
#24 |
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May I interject here- it wasn't JUST people who'd been fighting the last 4 years. World War I was |
KittyWampus |
Aug-06-09 02:39 PM |
#29 |
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VERY TRUE. My grandfather - who had his leg blown off 3 days before the Armistice - |
Captain Hilts |
Aug-06-09 07:20 PM |
#118 |
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How many threads do we need refighting WWII? |
damntexdem |
Aug-06-09 02:04 PM |
#3 |
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Hide thread is your friend, feel free to use him on mine. |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 02:06 PM |
#6 |
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You're just three days away from the Nagasaki hand-wringing |
Zywiec |
Aug-06-09 02:07 PM |
#7 |
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Why are you bringing this up today? |
taterguy |
Aug-06-09 02:05 PM |
#4 |
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Its august 6, we dropped the bomb today in 1945 |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 02:07 PM |
#8 |
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That was August 6, Japan time. Either a day before or a day after |
taterguy |
Aug-06-09 02:08 PM |
#9 |
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Because some people just like the idea of mass murder of civilians |
Chulanowa |
Aug-06-09 02:11 PM |
#10 |
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And some people here assume that everyone should be judged to the standards of 2009 |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 02:16 PM |
#17 |
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Most people seem to think it was the least bad of several bad options. And the option |
KittyWampus |
Aug-06-09 02:41 PM |
#33 |
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Which would have been accepting Japan's offer to surrender with the emperor still in charge |
Chulanowa |
Aug-06-09 03:00 PM |
#43 |
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Then put your evidence where your ideology is and debunk my OP. |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 03:03 PM |
#44 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Aug-06-09 03:16 PM |
#56 |
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You might want to take a look at that 3rd source |
eyepaddle |
Aug-06-09 03:21 PM |
#61 |
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0/3 ain't bad. |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 03:23 PM |
#65 |
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But you aren't acknowledging that the poster *hasn't read a word* of anything from those sources. |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 04:14 PM |
#91 |
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Some days it seems that way. |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 04:20 PM |
#93 |
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Why bother with "books" and "classes" |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 04:23 PM |
#96 |
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Yup. |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 04:26 PM |
#97 |
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Yep. Sorry, Wikipedia just didn't have the subject covered |
Chulanowa |
Aug-06-09 04:28 PM |
#98 |
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For someone that just offered up those sources, that's a bold card to play. n/t |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 04:31 PM |
#100 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Aug-06-09 04:45 PM |
#106 |
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It's refreshing to see you admit that's how you go about supporting your arguments. n/t |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 04:47 PM |
#107 |
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Lazy idiot? |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 04:57 PM |
#110 |
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Hmmm... |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 04:56 PM |
#109 |
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Furthermore, we incinerated hundreds of thousands of German civilians too. |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 03:08 PM |
#50 |
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There was some condemnation of Bombing In Europe |
BeGoodDoGood |
Aug-06-09 03:16 PM |
#55 |
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I realize that. |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 03:18 PM |
#58 |
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By the Brits, not us |
BeGoodDoGood |
Aug-06-09 03:20 PM |
#60 |
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The description of the bombing of Hamburg in Gwynne Dyer's |
eyepaddle |
Aug-06-09 03:16 PM |
#57 |
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"The world lost its mind from 1937-1945" |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 03:25 PM |
#69 |
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Yeah, I just read Dunnigan's "Dirty Little Secrets of WWII" |
eyepaddle |
Aug-06-09 03:28 PM |
#71 |
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I've wondered sometimes how future historians will see it. |
RaleighNCDUer |
Aug-06-09 03:33 PM |
#74 |
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Now that's a good question |
eyepaddle |
Aug-06-09 03:38 PM |
#77 |
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"The War of the World" by Niall Ferguson. |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 03:41 PM |
#79 |
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Thanks - I'll check it out. nt |
RaleighNCDUer |
Aug-06-09 03:43 PM |
#81 |
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That's a good book. |
proteus_lives |
Aug-06-09 05:07 PM |
#114 |
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Wait wait wait |
Chulanowa |
Aug-06-09 04:33 PM |
#103 |
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When you can find a line in which I praise their nuclear annihilation... |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 04:59 PM |
#111 |
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Truman was dealing with Stalin |
Turbineguy |
Aug-06-09 02:12 PM |
#11 |
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So the massacre of Japanese civilians is justified by the message |
RaleighNCDUer |
Aug-06-09 02:22 PM |
#22 |
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The Massacre, if you like, was justified by the message........ |
BeGoodDoGood |
Aug-06-09 03:24 PM |
#67 |
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The post I was replying to contended it was a message to the soviets, not |
RaleighNCDUer |
Aug-06-09 03:50 PM |
#87 |
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I'm not justifying it on those grounds. |
Turbineguy |
Aug-07-09 05:28 AM |
#122 |
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You do know that Japan's northern territories had been promised to Stalin, |
Art_from_Ark |
Aug-06-09 10:23 PM |
#121 |
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That's uncomfortable for me to contemplate |
tularetom |
Aug-06-09 02:12 PM |
#12 |
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Agreed. |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 02:18 PM |
#20 |
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Then they should have accepted a conditional surrender without invading. |
HiFructosePronSyrup |
Aug-06-09 02:12 PM |
#13 |
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Easy decision to make now |
zipplewrath |
Aug-06-09 02:17 PM |
#18 |
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Maybe. |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 02:21 PM |
#21 |
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A conditional surrender that was not offered is tough to accept. n/t |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 02:56 PM |
#39 |
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Imagine how many would have been saved if we had negotiated terms of surrender in the spring of 45? |
ShamelessHussy |
Aug-06-09 02:16 PM |
#15 |
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How many indeed. |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 02:23 PM |
#23 |
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Wanna be more horrified? |
zipplewrath |
Aug-06-09 02:26 PM |
#27 |
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Sure there was......... |
BeGoodDoGood |
Aug-06-09 03:04 PM |
#45 |
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That was not the justification at the time. |
zipplewrath |
Aug-06-09 03:38 PM |
#76 |
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Just like we could have saved a lot of lives by negotiating an armistice with Germany in 1943. |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 02:57 PM |
#40 |
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A detonation in Tokyo Bay would have been equally effective without |
RaleighNCDUer |
Aug-06-09 02:16 PM |
#16 |
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Yes, and had Haig devoted all his forces to a tank-driven breakthrough at Cambrai in 1917, |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 02:25 PM |
#25 |
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My point being the same - what is, is. All the "Hiroshima was necessary" |
RaleighNCDUer |
Aug-06-09 02:36 PM |
#28 |
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The firebombing of Dresden was the beginning of the end. |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 02:41 PM |
# |
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Haig should have been executed. He was a war criminal |
provis99 |
Aug-06-09 02:39 PM |
#30 |
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Haig was a fool. |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 02:43 PM |
#35 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Aug-06-09 03:07 PM |
#48 |
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Opinions expressed in this way do not help. |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 03:08 PM |
#51 |
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The women and children of Nagasaki didn't deserve what they got |
RaleighNCDUer |
Aug-06-09 03:12 PM |
#53 |
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Ok, agreed about the racist bullshit. |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 03:15 PM |
#54 |
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True, it is conjecture, but he was already wavering. Peace feelers had gone |
RaleighNCDUer |
Aug-06-09 03:29 PM |
#72 |
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I'm not saying you're wrong, using a second bomb on a city as collateral might have worked. |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 03:40 PM |
#78 |
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Glory in Living in some Unattainable Utopia |
BeGoodDoGood |
Aug-06-09 03:19 PM |
#59 |
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Are you the same poster |
comrade snarky |
Aug-06-09 04:55 PM |
#108 |
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Another "The Invasion That Didn’t Happen", link below. |
jody |
Aug-06-09 02:40 PM |
#31 |
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Japan didn't need to be invaded. |
rug |
Aug-06-09 02:41 PM |
#32 |
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Would you like to elaborate on that ... |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 02:43 PM |
#36 |
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They had lost their offensive capability. |
rug |
Aug-06-09 02:55 PM |
#37 |
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So starving millions of people to death was the preferrable option? n/t |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 02:58 PM |
#42 |
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Yes, although death by starvation and disease was not likely to reach the millions, |
rug |
Aug-06-09 03:06 PM |
#47 |
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If you look at Japan's available food and medicine stocks in 1945, I think it is *very* likely |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 03:22 PM |
#63 |
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May be, but the social collapse may have hastened the war's end before the figures reached that high |
rug |
Aug-06-09 03:23 PM |
#64 |
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Social collapse may have led to civil war. |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 03:26 PM |
#70 |
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A nation in the midst of civil war is in a precarious position to resist an invasion. |
rug |
Aug-06-09 03:48 PM |
#86 |
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If you think that the Japanese populace would have overthrown the government and the Emperor |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 03:29 PM |
#73 |
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That's rank speculation. |
rug |
Aug-06-09 03:46 PM |
#85 |
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Based on the Japanese population's conduct over the course of the war. |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 03:55 PM |
#88 |
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The condition of Japan in August 1945 was something more than skipping a meal or two. |
rug |
Aug-06-09 04:01 PM |
#89 |
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Yeah, it was. And there wasn't a hint of rebellion to be found (other than the attempted coup by |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 04:12 PM |
#90 |
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There is a difference between social collapse and overthrowing a government. |
rug |
Aug-06-09 04:18 PM |
#92 |
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And that "social collapse" was only going to happen after an enormous human toll, if the |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 04:22 PM |
#94 |
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"Those folks"? |
rug |
Aug-06-09 04:31 PM |
#101 |
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Japanese folks during WWII. Who did you think we were talking about? |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 04:36 PM |
#104 |
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And then there would have been a heavily-armed failed state... |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 04:22 PM |
#95 |
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Explain to me the projected cost of X Day and the actual cost of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. |
rug |
Aug-06-09 04:30 PM |
#99 |
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So I take it you had no problem whatsoever with the decade-long quarantine we did of Iraq. |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 03:06 PM |
#46 |
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As a matter of fact I do, as should you, although Iraq in the 1990s is not Japan in the 1940s. |
rug |
Aug-06-09 03:07 PM |
#49 |
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Well, your reasoning is consistent. |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 03:10 PM |
#52 |
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Starvation in the home islands would be highly unlikely. |
RaleighNCDUer |
Aug-06-09 03:21 PM |
#62 |
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"could easily support itself on home grown crops" |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 03:25 PM |
#68 |
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Add to that that where we use trucks to move produce from field to town |
eyepaddle |
Aug-06-09 03:36 PM |
#75 |
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Japanese agriculture was not sturdy young men plowing up the prairies. |
RaleighNCDUer |
Aug-06-09 03:42 PM |
#80 |
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Are you seriously saying that a nation that did not come close to feeding itself before the war |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 03:45 PM |
#83 |
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They WERE able to feed themselves just fine. It was the raw materials for |
RaleighNCDUer |
Aug-07-09 09:38 AM |
#123 |
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True dat |
slackmaster |
Aug-06-09 02:58 PM |
#41 |
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Recommend |
TexasObserver |
Aug-06-09 03:24 PM |
#66 |
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War and Pain is something that those don't experience it... are just armchair warriors |
Ichingcarpenter |
Aug-06-09 04:32 PM |
#102 |
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Remind me-- of the combatants in WWII, which ones were engaging in genocide? n/t |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 04:38 PM |
#105 |
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my father said at the last the war incinderaty bombs |
Ichingcarpenter |
Aug-06-09 05:02 PM |
#112 |
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Nothing you wrote has a thing to do with what I asked. |
Raskolnik |
Aug-06-09 05:07 PM |
#113 |
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In comparison to what you have suffered, you are right, I know nothing. |
SidneyCarton |
Aug-06-09 05:10 PM |
#116 |
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Great post and the bombings were the right decision. |
proteus_lives |
Aug-06-09 06:05 PM |
#117 |
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I agree on bombing Hiroshima. My dad & two uncles fought in the Pacific. |
Vidar |
Aug-06-09 08:14 PM |
#120 |
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