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Reply #: The firebombing of Dresden was the beginning of the end. [View All]

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SidneyCarton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-06-09 02:41 PM
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The firebombing of Dresden was the beginning of the end.
Or maybe it was the Spanish-American war.
Or the annexation of Hawaii
Or the massacre at Wounded Knee
Or the innumerable broken treaties with the Native Americans
Or the Trail of Tears
Or the toleration of slavery in the Constitution

etc, etc, ad nauseaum.

We have been an empire since the Louisiana Purchase, and have immorally treated the non-white populations of our nation for at least as long. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were neither a beginning or an end, just another piece in a long running morality play.
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  -Peleiu, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Invading Japan would have been no picnic. SidneyCarton  Aug-06-09 02:03 PM   #0 
  - war crime. nt.  endarkenment   Aug-06-09 02:04 PM   #1 
  - Agreed. Bombing Pearl Harbor, and invading Manchuria and Nanjing were war crimes. nt  Captain Hilts   Aug-06-09 02:05 PM   #5 
  - Indeed. Lots of war crimes were committed.  endarkenment   Aug-06-09 03:43 PM   #82 
  - Generational Judgement  BeGoodDoGood   Aug-06-09 02:56 PM   #38 
     - It was the wrong policy and it was not necessary.  endarkenment   Aug-06-09 03:45 PM   #84 
        - I'm really glad Big Fred didn't have to invade the mainland. He was training to do so. nt  Captain Hilts   Aug-06-09 07:25 PM   #119 
  - Folks here just can't place themselves in the mindset of folks in 1945  Captain Hilts   Aug-06-09 02:04 PM   #2 
  - I agree  zipplewrath   Aug-06-09 02:14 PM   #14 
  - "Its war folks. That's why we should avoid it"  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 02:26 PM   #26 
  - Yeah nice quote.  Statistical   Aug-06-09 05:09 PM   #115 
  - Your last sentence might be the best thing ever written.  eyepaddle   Aug-06-09 02:41 PM   #34 
  - Exactly my point.  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 02:18 PM   #19 
  - my father fought in the pacific  dugaresa   Aug-06-09 02:25 PM   #24 
  - May I interject here- it wasn't JUST people who'd been fighting the last 4 years. World War I was  KittyWampus   Aug-06-09 02:39 PM   #29 
     - VERY TRUE. My grandfather - who had his leg blown off 3 days before the Armistice -  Captain Hilts   Aug-06-09 07:20 PM   #118 
  - How many threads do we need refighting WWII?  damntexdem   Aug-06-09 02:04 PM   #3 
  - Hide thread is your friend, feel free to use him on mine.  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 02:06 PM   #6 
  - You're just three days away from the Nagasaki hand-wringing  Zywiec   Aug-06-09 02:07 PM   #7 
  - Why are you bringing this up today?  taterguy   Aug-06-09 02:05 PM   #4 
  - Its august 6, we dropped the bomb today in 1945  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 02:07 PM   #8 
  - That was August 6, Japan time. Either a day before or a day after  taterguy   Aug-06-09 02:08 PM   #9 
  - Because some people just like the idea of mass murder of civilians  Chulanowa   Aug-06-09 02:11 PM   #10 
     - And some people here assume that everyone should be judged to the standards of 2009  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 02:16 PM   #17 
     - Most people seem to think it was the least bad of several bad options. And the option  KittyWampus   Aug-06-09 02:41 PM   #33 
        - Which would have been accepting Japan's offer to surrender with the emperor still in charge  Chulanowa   Aug-06-09 03:00 PM   #43 
           - Then put your evidence where your ideology is and debunk my OP.  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 03:03 PM   #44 
           - Deleted message  Name removed   Aug-06-09 03:16 PM   #56 
              - You might want to take a look at that 3rd source  eyepaddle   Aug-06-09 03:21 PM   #61 
              - 0/3 ain't bad.  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 03:23 PM   #65 
                 - But you aren't acknowledging that the poster *hasn't read a word* of anything from those sources.  Raskolnik   Aug-06-09 04:14 PM   #91 
                 - Some days it seems that way.  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 04:20 PM   #93 
                    - Why bother with "books" and "classes"  Raskolnik   Aug-06-09 04:23 PM   #96 
                       - Yup.  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 04:26 PM   #97 
                 - Yep. Sorry, Wikipedia just didn't have the subject covered  Chulanowa   Aug-06-09 04:28 PM   #98 
                    - For someone that just offered up those sources, that's a bold card to play. n/t  Raskolnik   Aug-06-09 04:31 PM   #100 
                    - Deleted message  Name removed   Aug-06-09 04:45 PM   #106 
                       - It's refreshing to see you admit that's how you go about supporting your arguments. n/t  Raskolnik   Aug-06-09 04:47 PM   #107 
                       - Lazy idiot?  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 04:57 PM   #110 
                    - Hmmm...  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 04:56 PM   #109 
           - Furthermore, we incinerated hundreds of thousands of German civilians too.  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 03:08 PM   #50 
              - There was some condemnation of Bombing In Europe  BeGoodDoGood   Aug-06-09 03:16 PM   #55 
              - I realize that.  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 03:18 PM   #58 
                 - By the Brits, not us  BeGoodDoGood   Aug-06-09 03:20 PM   #60 
              - The description of the bombing of Hamburg in Gwynne Dyer's  eyepaddle   Aug-06-09 03:16 PM   #57 
              - "The world lost its mind from 1937-1945"  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 03:25 PM   #69 
                 - Yeah, I just read Dunnigan's "Dirty Little Secrets of WWII"  eyepaddle   Aug-06-09 03:28 PM   #71 
                    - I've wondered sometimes how future historians will see it.  RaleighNCDUer   Aug-06-09 03:33 PM   #74 
                    - Now that's a good question  eyepaddle   Aug-06-09 03:38 PM   #77 
                    - "The War of the World" by Niall Ferguson.  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 03:41 PM   #79 
                       - Thanks - I'll check it out. nt  RaleighNCDUer   Aug-06-09 03:43 PM   #81 
                    - That's a good book.  proteus_lives   Aug-06-09 05:07 PM   #114 
              - Wait wait wait  Chulanowa   Aug-06-09 04:33 PM   #103 
                 - When you can find a line in which I praise their nuclear annihilation...  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 04:59 PM   #111 
  - Truman was dealing with Stalin  Turbineguy   Aug-06-09 02:12 PM   #11 
  - So the massacre of Japanese civilians is justified by the message  RaleighNCDUer   Aug-06-09 02:22 PM   #22 
  - The Massacre, if you like, was justified by the message........  BeGoodDoGood   Aug-06-09 03:24 PM   #67 
  - The post I was replying to contended it was a message to the soviets, not  RaleighNCDUer   Aug-06-09 03:50 PM   #87 
  - I'm not justifying it on those grounds.  Turbineguy   Aug-07-09 05:28 AM   #122 
  - You do know that Japan's northern territories had been promised to Stalin,  Art_from_Ark   Aug-06-09 10:23 PM   #121 
  - That's uncomfortable for me to contemplate  tularetom   Aug-06-09 02:12 PM   #12 
  - Agreed.  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 02:18 PM   #20 
  - Then they should have accepted a conditional surrender without invading.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Aug-06-09 02:12 PM   #13 
  - Easy decision to make now  zipplewrath   Aug-06-09 02:17 PM   #18 
  - Maybe.  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 02:21 PM   #21 
  - A conditional surrender that was not offered is tough to accept. n/t  Raskolnik   Aug-06-09 02:56 PM   #39 
  - Imagine how many would have been saved if we had negotiated terms of surrender in the spring of 45?  ShamelessHussy   Aug-06-09 02:16 PM   #15 
  - How many indeed.  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 02:23 PM   #23 
  - Wanna be more horrified?  zipplewrath   Aug-06-09 02:26 PM   #27 
  - Sure there was.........  BeGoodDoGood   Aug-06-09 03:04 PM   #45 
     - That was not the justification at the time.  zipplewrath   Aug-06-09 03:38 PM   #76 
  - Just like we could have saved a lot of lives by negotiating an armistice with Germany in 1943.  Raskolnik   Aug-06-09 02:57 PM   #40 
  - A detonation in Tokyo Bay would have been equally effective without  RaleighNCDUer   Aug-06-09 02:16 PM   #16 
  - Yes, and had Haig devoted all his forces to a tank-driven breakthrough at Cambrai in 1917,  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 02:25 PM   #25 
  - My point being the same - what is, is. All the "Hiroshima was necessary"  RaleighNCDUer   Aug-06-09 02:36 PM   #28 
  - The firebombing of Dresden was the beginning of the end.  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 02:41 PM   # 
  - Haig should have been executed. He was a war criminal  provis99   Aug-06-09 02:39 PM   #30 
     - Haig was a fool.  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 02:43 PM   #35 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Aug-06-09 03:07 PM   #48 
     - Opinions expressed in this way do not help.  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 03:08 PM   #51 
     - The women and children of Nagasaki didn't deserve what they got  RaleighNCDUer   Aug-06-09 03:12 PM   #53 
     - Ok, agreed about the racist bullshit.  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 03:15 PM   #54 
     - True, it is conjecture, but he was already wavering. Peace feelers had gone  RaleighNCDUer   Aug-06-09 03:29 PM   #72 
        - I'm not saying you're wrong, using a second bomb on a city as collateral might have worked.  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 03:40 PM   #78 
     - Glory in Living in some Unattainable Utopia  BeGoodDoGood   Aug-06-09 03:19 PM   #59 
     - Are you the same poster  comrade snarky   Aug-06-09 04:55 PM   #108 
  - Another "The Invasion That Didnt Happen", link below.  jody   Aug-06-09 02:40 PM   #31 
  - Japan didn't need to be invaded.  rug   Aug-06-09 02:41 PM   #32 
  - Would you like to elaborate on that ...  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 02:43 PM   #36 
  - They had lost their offensive capability.  rug   Aug-06-09 02:55 PM   #37 
     - So starving millions of people to death was the preferrable option? n/t  Raskolnik   Aug-06-09 02:58 PM   #42 
     - Yes, although death by starvation and disease was not likely to reach the millions,  rug   Aug-06-09 03:06 PM   #47 
        - If you look at Japan's available food and medicine stocks in 1945, I think it is *very* likely  Raskolnik   Aug-06-09 03:22 PM   #63 
           - May be, but the social collapse may have hastened the war's end before the figures reached that high  rug   Aug-06-09 03:23 PM   #64 
              - Social collapse may have led to civil war.  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 03:26 PM   #70 
              - A nation in the midst of civil war is in a precarious position to resist an invasion.  rug   Aug-06-09 03:48 PM   #86 
              - If you think that the Japanese populace would have overthrown the government and the Emperor  Raskolnik   Aug-06-09 03:29 PM   #73 
                 - That's rank speculation.  rug   Aug-06-09 03:46 PM   #85 
                    - Based on the Japanese population's conduct over the course of the war.  Raskolnik   Aug-06-09 03:55 PM   #88 
                       - The condition of Japan in August 1945 was something more than skipping a meal or two.  rug   Aug-06-09 04:01 PM   #89 
                          - Yeah, it was. And there wasn't a hint of rebellion to be found (other than the attempted coup by  Raskolnik   Aug-06-09 04:12 PM   #90 
                             - There is a difference between social collapse and overthrowing a government.  rug   Aug-06-09 04:18 PM   #92 
                                - And that "social collapse" was only going to happen after an enormous human toll, if the  Raskolnik   Aug-06-09 04:22 PM   #94 
                                - "Those folks"?  rug   Aug-06-09 04:31 PM   #101 
                                   - Japanese folks during WWII. Who did you think we were talking about?  Raskolnik   Aug-06-09 04:36 PM   #104 
                                - And then there would have been a heavily-armed failed state...  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 04:22 PM   #95 
                                   - Explain to me the projected cost of X Day and the actual cost of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  rug   Aug-06-09 04:30 PM   #99 
     - So I take it you had no problem whatsoever with the decade-long quarantine we did of Iraq.  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 03:06 PM   #46 
        - As a matter of fact I do, as should you, although Iraq in the 1990s is not Japan in the 1940s.  rug   Aug-06-09 03:07 PM   #49 
           - Well, your reasoning is consistent.  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 03:10 PM   #52 
              - Starvation in the home islands would be highly unlikely.  RaleighNCDUer   Aug-06-09 03:21 PM   #62 
                 - "could easily support itself on home grown crops"  Raskolnik   Aug-06-09 03:25 PM   #68 
                    - Add to that that where we use trucks to move produce from field to town  eyepaddle   Aug-06-09 03:36 PM   #75 
                    - Japanese agriculture was not sturdy young men plowing up the prairies.  RaleighNCDUer   Aug-06-09 03:42 PM   #80 
                       - Are you seriously saying that a nation that did not come close to feeding itself before the war  Raskolnik   Aug-06-09 03:45 PM   #83 
                          - They WERE able to feed themselves just fine. It was the raw materials for  RaleighNCDUer   Aug-07-09 09:38 AM   #123 
  - True dat  slackmaster   Aug-06-09 02:58 PM   #41 
  - Recommend  TexasObserver   Aug-06-09 03:24 PM   #66 
  - War and Pain is something that those don't experience it... are just armchair warriors  Ichingcarpenter   Aug-06-09 04:32 PM   #102 
  - Remind me-- of the combatants in WWII, which ones were engaging in genocide? n/t  Raskolnik   Aug-06-09 04:38 PM   #105 
     - my father said at the last the war incinderaty bombs  Ichingcarpenter   Aug-06-09 05:02 PM   #112 
        - Nothing you wrote has a thing to do with what I asked.  Raskolnik   Aug-06-09 05:07 PM   #113 
        - In comparison to what you have suffered, you are right, I know nothing.  SidneyCarton   Aug-06-09 05:10 PM   #116 
  - Great post and the bombings were the right decision.  proteus_lives   Aug-06-09 06:05 PM   #117 
  - I agree on bombing Hiroshima. My dad & two uncles fought in the Pacific.  Vidar   Aug-06-09 08:14 PM   #120 

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