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Reply #119: This is tortured logic. [View All]

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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-21-09 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #111
119. This is tortured logic.
Edited on Tue Jul-21-09 03:41 PM by noamnety
If your roof leaks and your drywall is ruined, there's no point in putting up a fresh layer of wallpaper on the ruined drywall - especially if the hole in the roof is still leaking and is irreparable.

That's unrelated to whether or not the tenants "deserve" new wallpaper.
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  -Man refused liver transplant dies in UK (BBC News) jody  Jul-21-09 01:43 PM   #0 
  - Friend of Mitch McConnell?  izquierdista   Jul-21-09 01:45 PM   #1 
  - Yes, where was the concern then  get the red out   Jul-21-09 01:52 PM   #19 
     - There is so much under-reprting in this it has become a lie  TheBigotBasher   Jul-21-09 09:20 PM   #198 
  - Not if he cant do the 6 months dry  Taverner   Jul-21-09 01:45 PM   #2 
  - It seems as though he died before he would have had time to complete six dry months...  warren pease   Jul-21-09 02:48 PM   #64 
  - Isn't that a standard requiement? That you not be likely to immediately destroy the organ...  BlooInBloo   Jul-21-09 01:46 PM   #3 
  - As far as I know - an acquiantance destroyed her liver with booze and drugs and was denied  csziggy   Jul-21-09 03:28 PM   #108 
  - No.  MNDemNY   Jul-21-09 01:46 PM   #4 
  - organs are in short supply and have to be rationed as a result  stray cat   Jul-21-09 01:47 PM   #5 
  - That's essentially my question: WTF does this story have to do with health care reform?  SemiCharmedQuark   Jul-21-09 01:48 PM   #8 
  - Nothing - someone doesn't understand the lack of organs  stray cat   Jul-21-09 01:49 PM   #10 
  - No health coverage creates money out of thin air, what procedures should be rationed under Obama's  jody   Jul-21-09 01:50 PM   #12 
     - What does that have to do with the article you posted?  SemiCharmedQuark   Jul-21-09 01:51 PM   #16 
     - They both deal with rationing health care. n/t  jody   Jul-21-09 01:55 PM   #23 
        - No. This story is about rationing organs, NOT health care. He wouldn't have received a kidney in  SemiCharmedQuark   Jul-21-09 01:56 PM   #25 
           - Have a blissful day. n/t  jody   Jul-21-09 01:56 PM   #27 
              - So your attempt to portray this as some kind universal healthcare horror story failed  SemiCharmedQuark   Jul-21-09 01:57 PM   #28 
              - Hahaha... why are you apologizing?  redqueen   Jul-21-09 02:12 PM   #36 
              - My friend's husband has been on the list for a liver for quite some time  dflprincess   Jul-21-09 11:31 PM   #207 
     - The issue here is not lack of money, but shortage of organs  LeftishBrit   Jul-21-09 01:58 PM   #29 
     - The issue is rationing. n/t  jody   Jul-21-09 02:29 PM   #48 
        - Rationing of what? Organs?  LanternWaste   Jul-21-09 03:06 PM   #85 
           - Rationing health care of which transplants are among all medical procedures. n/t  jody   Jul-21-09 03:11 PM   #91 
              - Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-21-09 03:39 PM   #115 
     - money is not the problem with organ donations. supply is the problem.  endarkenment   Jul-21-09 02:17 PM   #41 
     - The issue is rationing. n/t  jody   Jul-21-09 02:29 PM   #49 
        - Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-21-09 02:54 PM   #73 
        - If the isssue is rationing  TheBigotBasher   Jul-21-09 04:44 PM   #156 
     - way to miss the point  quakerboy   Jul-21-09 02:27 PM   #46 
     - The issue is rationing. n/t  jody   Jul-21-09 02:29 PM   #50 
     - As previous commenters have made abundantly clear,  Chorophyll   Jul-21-09 03:50 PM   #127 
     - donor livers are rationed everywhere  mitchtv   Jul-21-09 04:11 PM   #144 
     - Your postings are not as applicable  quakerboy   Jul-21-09 08:51 PM   #195 
     - I think what was rationed in this case (the poster) is intelligence.  bobbolink   Jul-21-09 03:56 PM   #132 
     - The procedure isn't rationed because of cost.  lumberjack_jeff   Jul-21-09 03:09 PM   #88 
     - Understand but it is rationing nevertheless. n/t  jody   Jul-21-09 03:15 PM   #95 
     - All the money in the world will not buy livers that don't exist. n/t  Ms. Toad   Jul-21-09 11:09 PM   #203 
  - This didn't have anything to do with the health care system. It was about a shortage of organs.  SemiCharmedQuark   Jul-21-09 01:47 PM   #6 
  - See #12. n/t  jody   Jul-21-09 01:53 PM   #20 
     - You're confusing two separate issues.  Gwendolyn   Jul-21-09 01:59 PM   #30 
        - LOL "an organ transplant has nothing to do with health care". n/t  jody   Jul-21-09 02:31 PM   #51 
           - Not what I said, but you're purposefully being obtuse.  Gwendolyn   Jul-21-09 02:48 PM   #63 
              - No, I quoted you precisely. n/t  jody   Jul-21-09 02:50 PM   #68 
                 - No, what I said was that not approving this guy has nothing to do with health care.  Gwendolyn   Jul-21-09 03:06 PM   #84 
                    - The approval process you describe rations health care. n/t  jody   Jul-21-09 03:13 PM   #93 
                       - You make no sense at all.  Gwendolyn   Jul-21-09 03:39 PM   #117 
                          - Which words in my statement "Should he be eligible for an immediate transplant under the proposed  jody   Jul-21-09 03:46 PM   #124 
                             - What else would you have implied?  Gwendolyn   Jul-21-09 03:59 PM   #134 
                                - My question was explicitly simple, "Should he be eligible for an immediate transplant under the  jody   Jul-21-09 04:03 PM   #139 
                                   - No of course not...  Gwendolyn   Jul-21-09 04:12 PM   #145 
                                   - Understand, "It's about organ availability" but such a policy would be established under our  jody   Jul-21-09 04:18 PM   #148 
                                      - We have those policies now  supernova   Jul-21-09 04:47 PM   #158 
                                      - Did you read my post to which you replied? Your comment makes no sense if you did. n/t  jody   Jul-21-09 04:51 PM   #160 
                                      - No, it wouldn't be 'established'; it already exists  muriel_volestrangler   Jul-21-09 05:29 PM   #167 
                                      - Thanks, do you have a source that existing policies will not be changed? n/t  jody   Jul-21-09 05:32 PM   #168 
                                         - The shortage of organs will not change  muriel_volestrangler   Jul-21-09 05:37 PM   #169 
                                         - "free market in organs?" That's unlikely in the US but Saddam Hussein had a thriving business using  jody   Jul-21-09 05:55 PM   #172 
                                         - UNOS is not abolished by any draft health care reform  Ms. Toad   Jul-21-09 11:25 PM   #205 
                                      - You are asking for the money equation to come between the patient and the doctor  Horse with no Name   Jul-21-09 09:34 PM   #200 
                                      - The organ "rationing" policy is completely separate  Ms. Toad   Jul-21-09 11:22 PM   #204 
                                   - Should he be eligible for an immediate transplant under the proposed U.S. Universal Health System?  TheBigotBasher   Jul-21-09 10:03 PM   #202 
  - I dunno - the old US health care system gave Mickey Mantle a new one  tularetom   Jul-21-09 01:48 PM   #7 
  - Mickey Mantle had money & fame on his side.  baldguy   Jul-21-09 01:54 PM   #21 
  - I remember A Current Affair following "Papa" John Philips and catching him boozing it up...  mitchum   Jul-21-09 03:59 PM   #135 
  - The fact that Mickey Mantle needed a liver transplant also spurred people to donate  LisaM   Jul-21-09 02:08 PM   #34 
  - A liver transplant would be pointless if he didn't stop drinking.  baldguy   Jul-21-09 01:48 PM   #9 
  - Why are you confusing the two issues here?  noamnety   Jul-21-09 01:50 PM   #11 
  - See #12. n/t  jody   Jul-21-09 01:52 PM   #17 
     - You are completely missing the point.  noamnety   Jul-21-09 02:01 PM   #31 
        - "Universal health care is not going to magically produce more organs to be donated."  redqueen   Jul-21-09 02:17 PM   #42 
        - Rationing because of organ shortage or fund shortage are both rationing., That's precisely why Obama  jody   Jul-21-09 02:37 PM   #54 
           - This is LOGIC 101  noamnety   Jul-21-09 03:06 PM   #82 
           - I believe organ transplants are justified under medicare by comparing the cost of procedures  jody   Jul-21-09 03:10 PM   #89 
           - LOGIC 101: There will still be an organ shortage. (nt)  noamnety   Jul-21-09 03:14 PM   #94 
              - Agree and I agree with Obama there will be a shortage of funds for health care. n/t  jody   Jul-21-09 03:16 PM   #96 
                 - Then why don't you post about dollar shortages instead of organ shortages? (nt)  noamnety   Jul-21-09 03:19 PM   #99 
                    - The two are interrelated. If one discusses comparative effectiveness, then decisions to transplant  jody   Jul-21-09 03:30 PM   #110 
                       - Seld delete  LanternWaste   Jul-21-09 06:13 PM   #177 
           - Good luck. n/t  Greyhound   Jul-21-09 04:06 PM   #143 
           - Phew, thank you  chatnoir   Jul-21-09 09:06 PM   #196 
           - Transplant rationing is not about money.  endarkenment   Jul-21-09 03:39 PM   #114 
           - Understand, once a patient is diagnosed with end stage renal disease she/he is covered by medicare.  jody   Jul-21-09 03:43 PM   #121 
              - Oh, so this is personal for you  supernova   Jul-21-09 04:01 PM   #137 
                 - No. n/t  jody   Jul-21-09 04:04 PM   #141 
           - Where does what you have quoted even begin to address  Ms. Toad   Jul-21-09 11:30 PM   #206 
  - Active drinkers are refused transplants less formally in the US  Warpy   Jul-21-09 01:51 PM   #13 
  - In the US, people die all the time while waiting for organs  mainer   Jul-21-09 01:51 PM   #14 
  - Why would the guidelines for transplant change?  Gwendolyn   Jul-21-09 01:51 PM   #15 
  - First. Two different issues. Second...HE wouldn't have gotten one here either.  xultar   Jul-21-09 01:52 PM   #18 
  - Bring on the organ banks! Don't execute criminials, harvest their organs 1st!.......  cdsilv   Jul-21-09 01:55 PM   #24 
     - OK, so where did you pull that shit from? The goddamned twilight zone?  xultar   Jul-21-09 02:27 PM   #45 
  - This is a very sad story...  BlueIdaho   Jul-21-09 01:54 PM   #22 
  - cirrhosis at 22!??  Blue_Tires   Jul-21-09 01:56 PM   #26 
  - No.  ingac70   Jul-21-09 02:02 PM   #32 
  - No. Financing it wasn't the problem.  Deep13   Jul-21-09 02:03 PM   #33 
  - The proposed system has nothing to do with deciding who gets a liver transplant or not.  superduperfarleft   Jul-21-09 02:11 PM   #35 
  - FAIL  redqueen   Jul-21-09 02:13 PM   #37 
  - Not just fail  fujiyama   Jul-21-09 02:16 PM   #40 
     - Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-21-09 02:37 PM   #55 
     - I share the same concern as Obama, see #54, about the need for comparative effectiveness. n/t  jody   Jul-21-09 02:40 PM   #57 
     - Of what? You've already been pwned. Additionally, I call bullshit.  Maru Kitteh   Jul-21-09 02:46 PM   #61 
        - Are you saying about Obama's position "I call bullshit"? n/t  jody   Jul-21-09 02:48 PM   #65 
           - Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-21-09 02:52 PM   #71 
              - thanks for the link  Lord Helmet   Jul-21-09 03:37 PM   #113 
              - Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-21-09 04:17 PM   #147 
              - Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-21-09 06:15 PM   #178 
     - That could apply to so many DUers.  redqueen   Jul-21-09 02:41 PM   #58 
        - I can't post what I think about Jody per DU rules. n/t  Occulus   Jul-21-09 06:18 PM   #181 
     - Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-21-09 02:45 PM   #60 
        - Wow didn't know DU had some of those!  fujiyama   Jul-21-09 02:51 PM   #69 
        - Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-21-09 02:56 PM   #74 
        - Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-21-09 03:24 PM   #104 
  - Should he be eligible for an immediate transplant under proposed U.S. Universal Health Care System?  dysfunctional press   Jul-21-09 02:14 PM   #38 
  - Health care is holistic and the question as you've asked it is a piece-meal,  Greyhound   Jul-21-09 02:15 PM   #39 
  - You do not believe people should have sovereignty over their bodies?  Maru Kitteh   Jul-21-09 02:43 PM   #59 
     - In the future, it might not be an issue  supernova   Jul-21-09 02:49 PM   #67 
     - Another great point. If we can just overcome the "Frankenstein's Monster" mindset  Greyhound   Jul-21-09 03:11 PM   #90 
     - Looky here!  supernova   Jul-21-09 03:17 PM   #97 
        - Way cool! We could see a day with organ banks that preserve your own  Greyhound   Jul-21-09 03:58 PM   #133 
     - A new trachea grown from a woman's own stem cells was transplanted in the UK.  Maru Kitteh   Jul-21-09 04:05 PM   #142 
        - That's what the place at Baptist Medical Center does  supernova   Jul-21-09 04:15 PM   #146 
     - Yes. I would never advocate any type of force, however we can, and I believe should,  Greyhound   Jul-21-09 02:57 PM   #76 
        - I'm very much in favor of "opt out" instead of the "opt in" system we have here.  Maru Kitteh   Jul-21-09 06:06 PM   #174 
  - He would not have been eligible here and he should not be.  Maru Kitteh   Jul-21-09 02:18 PM   #43 
  - This OP is flamebait  endarkenment   Jul-21-09 02:19 PM   #44 
  - How can a BBC article based on fact that deals with rationing health care be flame bait? You may  jody   Jul-21-09 02:28 PM   #47 
     - But that's just the point  supernova   Jul-21-09 02:33 PM   #52 
        - "Ergo, you have to have regulations about who will get" health care as Obama recognized with his  jody   Jul-21-09 02:38 PM   #56 
           - Hey, we already ration care  supernova   Jul-21-09 02:47 PM   #62 
           - I agree with your points but Obama knows that rationing aka comparative effectiveness is necessary,  jody   Jul-21-09 02:53 PM   #72 
              - This is a weakness in the medical industry  supernova   Jul-21-09 03:00 PM   #78 
                 - Agree, I fear that people detached from direct health care will make policy rationing procedures  jody   Jul-21-09 03:04 PM   #81 
                    - That we can agree on  supernova   Jul-21-09 03:08 PM   #87 
                       - I hope Obama's efforts re comparative effectiveness will not be diminished by partisan bickering. nt  jody   Jul-21-09 03:18 PM   #98 
                          - Not from the left they won't  supernova   Jul-21-09 03:20 PM   #100 
           - So what's your opinion  Clouseau2   Jul-21-09 02:56 PM   #75 
              - He's trying to make  supernova   Jul-21-09 03:13 PM   #92 
              - Welcome to DU  TheBigotBasher   Jul-21-09 05:41 PM   #170 
  - He committed suicide.  Ikonoklast   Jul-21-09 02:35 PM   #53 
  - Not exactly.  Gwendolyn   Jul-21-09 02:58 PM   #77 
     - His disease was discovered too late  supernova   Jul-21-09 03:02 PM   #79 
     - Yes, he needed the help back when he was 13 or 16. Very sad. n/t  Gwendolyn   Jul-21-09 03:45 PM   #122 
        - Sounds like a genetic predisposition  supernova   Jul-21-09 03:52 PM   #129 
     - Then it was too late for him anyway.  Ikonoklast   Jul-21-09 03:04 PM   #80 
        - Sadly yes, I believe so  supernova   Jul-21-09 03:06 PM   #83 
        - I agree.  Gwendolyn   Jul-21-09 03:41 PM   #120 
  - Sounds like the same standard that is applied...  ljm2002   Jul-21-09 02:49 PM   #66 
  - Nah, he just wants to rag on govmint obamacare  supernova   Jul-21-09 02:52 PM   #70 
  - Medically relevant criteria must be used.  lumberjack_jeff   Jul-21-09 03:07 PM   #86 
  - Understand. What about open-heart surgery for a 90 year old with other complications? I know that's  jody   Jul-21-09 03:21 PM   #102 
     - Often it's the family  supernova   Jul-21-09 03:24 PM   #103 
     - Why don't you look up how organs are rationed NOW in America?  BlooInBloo   Jul-21-09 03:24 PM   #105 
     - I don't know.  lumberjack_jeff   Jul-21-09 03:36 PM   #112 
        - The OP was about rationing organ transplants and our proposed health care system. That's a subset of  jody   Jul-21-09 03:39 PM   #116 
           - When there are five of something, like livers, transplanting all five is not rationing.  lumberjack_jeff   Jul-21-09 04:21 PM   #149 
              - On the other hand if ten patients need a liver it's rationing. n/t  jody   Jul-21-09 04:24 PM   #150 
                 - No, then it's selecting. n/t  lumberjack_jeff   Jul-21-09 06:19 PM   #182 
                 - LOL. n/t  jody   Jul-21-09 06:21 PM   #184 
                    - One rations something to assure that they don't run out. n/t  lumberjack_jeff   Jul-21-09 06:56 PM   #188 
                       - See #187. n/t  jody   Jul-21-09 07:02 PM   #190 
                 - Wrongo. You don't seem to understand the concept of rationing and maybe that's the problem.  Gwendolyn   Jul-21-09 06:21 PM   #183 
                    - Most people use rationing to mean the controlled distribution of resources and scarce goods or  jody   Jul-21-09 06:36 PM   #187 
                       - Same difference.  Gwendolyn   Jul-21-09 06:57 PM   #189 
                          - Obviously they are transplanted to the next person on a list. Supply is limited however and many  jody   Jul-21-09 07:06 PM   #191 
                             - It's not "in like fashion" at all. That's the problem. You can't tell the difference...  Gwendolyn   Jul-21-09 07:13 PM   #192 
                                - Then Obama has a problem because his comparative effectiveness research could consider such policies  jody   Jul-21-09 07:19 PM   #194 
  - Can we go back now  noamnety   Jul-21-09 03:21 PM   #101 
  - LOL, IMO Atty. Gen. Brown took the correct approach that same-sex marriage is an inalienable right  jody   Jul-21-09 03:25 PM   #107 
  - A shame that his refusal to treat the one disease resulted in his death from another (nm)  Book Lover   Jul-21-09 03:25 PM   #106 
  - Alcoholics deserve their fate. nt  masuki bance   Jul-21-09 03:29 PM   #109 
  - Do you also believe that those who engage in risky hobbies deserve their fate? n/t  jody   Jul-21-09 03:34 PM   #111 
  - This is tortured logic.  noamnety   Jul-21-09 03:40 PM   #119 
  - No, they don't  supernova   Jul-21-09 03:40 PM   #118 
  - What if we had a healthcare system that offered treatment options?  rucky   Jul-21-09 03:46 PM   #125 
  - alcoholics have a disease for which there is no effective treatment  pitohui   Jul-21-09 03:54 PM   #130 
  - No they don't deserve it...  LeftishBrit   Jul-21-09 04:27 PM   #152 
  - You won't hear about the no-drinking condition when our news media reports this.  rucky   Jul-21-09 03:45 PM   #123 
  - Remember David Crosby?  supernova   Jul-21-09 03:50 PM   #128 
     - John Philips also took his new liver out for several test drives  mitchum   Jul-21-09 04:02 PM   #138 
        - Oh, yeah that's right!  supernova   Jul-21-09 04:04 PM   #140 
  - It is called triage, and we have this happening here NOW  nadinbrzezinski   Jul-21-09 03:47 PM   #126 
  - " In addition to assessing the patient's physical condition, the team will consider the patient's  WhollyHeretic   Jul-21-09 03:55 PM   #131 
  - OMG, the United States has been infiltrated by commies!  SemiCharmedQuark   Jul-21-09 05:08 PM   #162 
  - He wouldn't have gotten one here in the US, either.  johnaries   Jul-21-09 04:00 PM   #136 
  - I think there are procedures besides organ transplants that are  hedgehog   Jul-21-09 04:26 PM   #151 
  - He wouldn't be eligible under our current medical system, let alone a new one.  berni_mccoy   Jul-21-09 04:29 PM   #153 
  - He'd be eligible, if he were a Saudi Prince, to have as many US body parts as he liked.  slampoet   Jul-21-09 04:32 PM   #154 
  - Apparently 5% of alcoholics quit on their own and 32% are sober one year after rehab. Is the six  jody   Jul-21-09 04:40 PM   #155 
  - In short, yes.  Zynx   Jul-21-09 05:21 PM   #166 
  - No. He chose booze over life. nt  Joey Liberal   Jul-21-09 04:47 PM   #157 
  - I'm sorry, but there are people who haven't destroyed their own bodies who need this.  Zynx   Jul-21-09 04:51 PM   #159 
  - I disagree strongly. Not with the medical decision, but with the grounds you give.  LeftishBrit   Jul-21-09 05:02 PM   #161 
  - I have a question...  DatManFromNawlins   Jul-21-09 05:09 PM   #163 
  - Interesting question. MD's are asking for protection against law suits so would such protection  jody   Jul-21-09 05:15 PM   #164 
     - Please...  xocet   Jul-21-09 06:07 PM   #175 
        - Recite all you want. n/t  jody   Jul-21-09 06:08 PM   #176 
           - Ignore the relevant all you want.  LanternWaste   Jul-21-09 06:18 PM   #180 
              - LOL! n/t  jody   Jul-21-09 06:22 PM   #185 
                 - If it helps you feel better about yourself...  LanternWaste   Jul-21-09 06:28 PM   #186 
  - BBC Misreporting  TheBigotBasher   Jul-21-09 05:20 PM   #165 
  - Thank you for this  supernova   Jul-21-09 05:47 PM   #171 
  - Triage  mrfrapp   Jul-21-09 06:05 PM   #173 
  - My friends mentor can't get a transplant here in the states for more ridiculous reasons.  izzybeans   Jul-21-09 06:18 PM   #179 
  - False  TheBigotBasher   Jul-21-09 07:16 PM   #193 
  - As the husband of a transplant patient...  sendero   Jul-21-09 09:08 PM   #197 
  - He wasn't alcohol free  Horse with no Name   Jul-21-09 09:21 PM   #199 
  - I thought that already did happen here?  varelse   Jul-21-09 09:44 PM   #201 
  - Locking  krispos42   Jul-22-09 03:36 AM   #208 

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