Democratic Underground - Ah . . . but there were . . . !!! ...

Reply #81: Ah . . . but there were . . . !!! ... [View All]

defendandprotect

(1000+ posts)

Fri Jul-17-09 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #74

81. Ah . . . but there were . . . !!! ...

Edited on Fri Jul-17-09 01:52 AM by defendandprotect

New Haven had previously been sued by firefighters for discrimination . . .
that's why they understood the peril they were in regarding the "disparate-impact"
re the test that had just been given --

ADDITIONALLY . . . Kennedy notes this . . .

"because of controversy surrounding previous examinations"

*************************************************************

As witnesses make clear, the test could not have withstood challenge --

Additionally, study materials had cost $500 and out of stock with month and a half delay.
That have the ring of a poll tax?

Significantly, the white firefighters generally had a relative who was with the department
or had previously served and the materials were available to them.

See my further comments below under "For the record" --

There's a link to both majority and minority opinions if you're interested --

Critical understanding = rebellion = organization = change

And, actually the figures I first used were wrongly stated in some of the reports --

I think 77 whites - 19 AA -- also a larger number of Hispanics took the Lieutenant exam.

You'll find a better report on the actual numbers in the opinions -
there's a link there

And, if you want a "dispute" read Gingsburg's opening on the long shadow cast by discrimination
in municipalities -- firefighters --

and about the lawsuit against New Haven for historical discrimination against minority firefighters --

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High Court: White Firefighters Are Victims Of Bias	defendandprotect	Jul-16-09 04:20 PM	#0
What's the percentage of white firefighters in America?	Joanne98	Jul-16-09 04:22 PM	#1
The % of minority firefighters has probably increased, but this case was	CTyankee	Jul-16-09 04:28 PM	#4
Thank you -- and I think it very definitely tries to deliver a message ...	defendandprotect	Jul-16-09 04:45 PM	#15
Actually, no. The mayor made a deal with the firefighters union to use the written test.	CTyankee	Jul-16-09 04:48 PM	#17
I was referring to the 5-4 Supreme Court decision . . .	defendandprotect	Jul-16-09 05:20 PM	#26
OK, got it! Sorry, I am in rant mode after this whole hearing and all this moaning and groaning	CTyankee	Jul-16-09 05:23 PM	#28
I know . . . . and this "firefighter" case has been kind of background in my mind . . .	defendandprotect	Jul-16-09 05:26 PM	#30
Unfortunately, I know a lot about this case, more than I want to know really.	CTyankee	Jul-16-09 05:38 PM	#36
I know that this case like a lot of other stuff that goes on politically in	defendandprotect	Jul-16-09 05:43 PM	#39
Repeating inaccurate information will not make it true	Rage for Order	Jul-16-09 09:09 PM	#58
Right . . ."repeating info will not make it true" .. . no matter who does it --	defendandprotect	Jul-16-09 09:53 PM	#61
But there were no allegations of test rigging, just undesireable results	Rage for Order	Jul-17-09 01:04 AM	#74
Ah . . . but there were . . . !!! ...	defendandprotect	Jul-17-09 01:51 AM	#81
Once again this was a new test. How would previous materials have helped on a new exam?	Fire_Medic_Dave	Jul-17-09 03:02 AM	#84
Did you read the post -- ??? New Haven had history of discrimination vs minority firefighters . .	defendandprotect	Jul-17-09 10:09 PM	#94
The previous test were biased so they were replaced by a new one.	Fire_Medic_Dave	Jul-17-09 10:18 PM	#95
Which couldn't stand challenge because it would also be seen ...	defendandprotect	Jul-17-09 10:25 PM	#96
The City refused to have the test reviewed for bias.	Fire_Medic_Dave	Jul-17-09 10:31 PM	#99
Presumably they didn't want that confirmed . . .	defendandprotect	Jul-18-09 12:56 AM	#101
I agree with the SC decision.	MercutioATC	Jul-16-09 04:23 PM	#2
From what we know of standardized tests, they are biased . . .	defendandprotect	Jul-16-09 04:28 PM	#5
No, we do not know that. We know that "some" tests are biased.	PassingTimeHere	Jul-16-09 04:30 PM	#6
You're correct . . . I was referring to "standarized" tests --	defendandprotect	Jul-16-09 04:36 PM	#11
The questions about fire science are on a test that one has to pass tobecome a firefighter	CTyankee	Jul-16-09 04:56 PM	#19
It doesn't matter if the test is the worst of the lot.	PassingTimeHere	Jul-16-09 05:14 PM	#21
No argument from me on that. I was just commenting, as a New Haven resident, on	CTyankee	Jul-16-09 05:20 PM	#27
Obviously, it did . . . because they failed. Are we to believe that they are inferior	defendandprotect	Jul-16-09 05:35 PM	#34
Sotomayor agrees with SCOTUS ruling on this one.	Statistical	Jul-16-09 06:19 PM	#46
yes. You are right.	CTyankee	Jul-16-09 08:50 PM	#55
It would appear based on some of these answers that that is exactly what people would have you	Raineyb	Jul-17-09 09:45 AM	#87
You missed the point entirely.	eqfan592	Jul-19-09 01:56 PM	#114
Your reasoning is flawed.	eqfan592	Jul-19-09 01:52 PM	#113
Wow . . . there are certainly a lot of tricks in the barrel ...	defendandprotect	Jul-16-09 05:32 PM	#33
Well...	PassingTimeHere	Jul-16-09 08:23 PM	#54
Except that such tests yield more racially balanced results.	CTyankee	Jul-16-09 08:56 PM	#56
It tells me NOTHING. This group was too small to make that conclusion!	PassingTimeHere	Jul-16-09 09:21 PM	#59
Group is not to small to note that overwhelming presense	defendandprotect	Jul-16-09 10:14 PM	#64
OTOH ...	defendandprotect	Jul-16-09 10:09 PM	#63
One question does not a test make	Rage for Order	Jul-16-09 09:56 PM	#62
...and if bias could have been found in this test, I'd support throwing out the results.	MercutioATC	Jul-16-09 04:30 PM	#7
Suspicion remains that African-Americans couldn't compete successfully here?	defendandprotect	Jul-16-09 04:39 PM	#12
Weren't there also hispanic firefighters that did well...	TCJ70	Jul-16-09 04:41 PM	#14
Haven't we also had cases where "preferred" candidates were given answers . . .??	defendandprotect	Jul-16-09 04:47 PM	#16
Evidence of tampering with the candidates would be a valid reason for action.	MercutioATC	Jul-16-09 04:59 PM	#20
But no one ever alleged that in court. You have to deal with the facts at hand.	PassingTimeHere	Jul-16-09 05:14 PM	#22
Exactly.	MercutioATC	Jul-16-09 05:19 PM	#25
As I said, there have been OTHER cases where that happened . . .	defendandprotect	Jul-16-09 05:17 PM	#23
Because it was never even alleged?	MercutioATC	Jul-16-09 05:18 PM	#24
No . . . I didn't say . .	defendandprotect	Jul-16-09 05:23 PM	#29
Ok, to specify...there's no evidence that some candidates were treated differently.	MercutioATC	Jul-16-09 05:28 PM	#31
Not unusual . . .	defendandprotect	Jul-16-09 05:30 PM	#32
How is that pertinent to this issue?	MercutioATC	Jul-16-09 05:39 PM	#37
Given the history of corruption, we should question EVERYTHING . . .	defendandprotect	Jul-16-09 05:41 PM	#38
To the extent of throwing "everything" out?	MercutioATC	Jul-16-09 05:46 PM	#40
Your "if" is the question you can't answer and neither can I . . .it's a possibility . . .	defendandprotect	Jul-16-09 05:47 PM	#41
The mayor agreed to the firefighter's union to give the written test.	CTyankee	Jul-16-09 08:08 PM	#53
"Better" racial outcomes?	Rage for Order	Jul-17-09 01:06 AM	#75
Damn right, better! Diversity is better. And unless you automatically think diversity	CTyankee	Jul-17-09 11:22 AM	#90
MSM Stories said study guides with sample questions were made available to all applicants	ProgressiveProfessor	Jul-16-09 06:59 PM	#49
Great, but the question isn't what was made available to ALL applicants. . .	defendandprotect	Jul-16-09 10:18 PM	#65
Conjecture and scarcely basis for tossing a test prepared by an outside company	ProgressiveProfessor	Jul-16-09 10:40 PM	#68
"because of controversy surrounding previous examinations" --	defendandprotect	Jul-17-09 01:26 AM	#78
No evidence of that was presented.	Fire_Medic_Dave	Jul-16-09 11:21 PM	#71
New Haven had previously been sued by firefighters for discrimination . . .	defendandprotect	Jul-17-09 01:31 AM	#79
This was a brand new exam. Relatives couldn't have helped.	Fire_Medic_Dave	Jul-17-09 03:01 AM	#83
It was based in some part on the materials which were still being used . . .	defendandprotect	Jul-17-09 10:27 PM	#97
Those same IFSTA and NFPA manuals that are in fire halls all over the country.	Fire_Medic_Dave	Jul-17-09 10:33 PM	#100
Once again it is POSSIBLE the test was biased.	Statistical	Jul-16-09 05:37 PM	#35
Of course it's possible the test was biased or answers given in advance . . .	defendandprotect	Jul-16-09 05:56 PM	#43
So I think you might have robbed me. Give me the $1000 you may have stolen form me or you go to jail	Statistical	Jul-16-09 06:16 PM	#45
Discussion and demanding are two quite different things . . .	defendandprotect	Jul-16-09 09:34 PM	#60
Who demanded anything?	Fire_Medic_Dave	Jul-17-09 03:18 AM	#85
Your example is one of outright claim ... vs discussion -- Meanwhile . . .	defendandprotect	Jul-18-09 05:14 PM	#103
She's not that bright then. The people who scored well and had their scores tossed were hurt.	Fire_Medic_Dave	Jul-18-09 05:21 PM	#104
Right . . . she's a girl and she has cooties -- !!!	defendandprotect	Jul-18-09 06:40 PM	#105
Actually the argument was that 2/3 of the department in that region, not nationwide.	Fire_Medic_Dave	Jul-18-09 11:45 PM	#106
Okay . . . even more intense . . .	defendandprotect	Jul-19-09 01:56 AM	#107
I do find it funny you question the results of my cities exams which have achieved racially...	Fire_Medic_Dave	Jul-19-09 02:03 AM	#108
That's why New Haven was sued in the 1970's . . .	defendandprotect	Jul-19-09 02:08 AM	#109
They were sued because their tests achieved racially equitable results????	Fire_Medic_Dave	Jul-19-09 02:20 AM	#110
eh . . .	defendandprotect	Jul-19-09 01:36 PM	#111
Please read posts before cutting and pasting a response.	Fire_Medic_Dave	Jul-19-09 01:38 PM	#112
Several African Americans did pass the test.	Fire_Medic_Dave	Jul-16-09 05:59 PM	#44
Right.	DatManFromNawlins	Jul-16-09 07:45 PM	#51
And that means what?	defendandprotect	Jul-16-09 10:27 PM	#67
That means that several passed the written test. Duh.	Fire_Medic_Dave	Jul-16-09 11:19 PM	#70
Without qualifying for promotions -- duh	defendandprotect	Jul-17-09 01:22 AM	#77
Yes so their combined scores on the written and oral exam weren't high enough.	Fire_Medic_Dave	Jul-17-09 02:57 AM	#82
From what WE(?) know...they are biased...?	chucker47	Jul-19-09 06:09 PM	#115
I think the city should have hired based on the test, and THEN changed the requirements	PassingTimeHere	Jul-16-09 04:24 PM	#3
I at least agree with you re changing some of the testing . . .	defendandprotect	Jul-16-09 04:32 PM	#8
Why not just give another test involving simulation of real life situations	CTyankee	Jul-16-09 09:01 PM	#57
Civil Service exams are used to keep politics out of hiring and promotions.	seaglass	Jul-16-09 10:44 PM	#69
I would not compare a lawyer's job with that of a firefighter.	CTyankee	Jul-17-09 11:31 AM	#91
Hopefully they will change the process next time.	Fire_Medic_Dave	Jul-16-09 11:59 PM	#72
You know the irony is thanks to Bush/Reagan/Bush	NJmaverick	Jul-16-09 04:32 PM	#9
And two weeks before the Sotomayor hearings they reverse her . .	defendandprotect	Jul-16-09 04:40 PM	#13
The SC didn't rule against minorities...	brendan120678	Jul-16-09 04:33 PM	#10
Good point.	PassingTimeHere	Jul-16-09 04:53 PM	#18
Is affirmative action truly dead now as public policy?	sharesunited	Jul-16-09 05:50 PM	#42
Did you ever read the decision before you dragged out that nonesense?	Statistical	Jul-16-09 06:25 PM	#47
Don't you think that was a smokescreen, though?	sharesunited	Jul-16-09 07:13 PM	#50
Disparate impact on such a small group?	PassingTimeHere	Jul-16-09 08:07 PM	#52
It sure took a hit, and the "disproportionate impact" and "fear of being sued" defenses got killed	ProgressiveProfessor	Jul-16-09 06:58 PM	#48
I'd say this case is another argument for the Supreme Court to be televised . . .	defendandprotect	Jul-16-09 10:21 PM	#66
SCOTUS is not televised and likely wont be for a while (if ever).	Statistical	Jul-17-09 09:12 AM	#86
C-span has played some tapes of important cases . .. however I think there is	defendandprotect	Jul-17-09 10:29 PM	#98
You dont recall this being posted on DU? Are you serious? Is this some kind of joke?	MadBadger	Jul-17-09 12:00 AM	#73
For the record . . .	defendandprotect	Jul-17-09 01:19 AM	#76
RW think tanks have been "working" this angle for decades, and it's finally paid off	SoCalDem	Jul-17-09 01:41 AM	#80
One thing that is missing is "merit" promotion and it's problems	AngryAmish	Jul-17-09 09:54 AM	#88
That is true and in CT they have a particular problem with corruption/nepotism	seaglass	Jul-18-09 11:00 AM	#102
What is the nature of this test and how does it relate	mmonk	Jul-17-09 09:57 AM	#89
Look, just promote the black and hispanic applicants alone	Seeking Serenity	Jul-17-09 11:56 AM	#92
Might result in a hissy fit on the floor...nt	CTyankee	Jul-17-09 06:03 PM	#93

Reply #81: Ah . . . but there were . . . !!! ... [View All]