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Reply #111: Alice Miller discusses origins of excessive obedience to authority in childhood upbringing [View All]

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MikeH Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Fri Jun-05-09 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
111. Alice Miller discusses origins of excessive obedience to authority in childhood upbringing
Edited on Fri Jun-05-09 07:22 PM by MikeH
I indicated in a response to one of your earlier threads about the Swiss writer and psychotherapist Alice Miller, and her documentation of childhood abuse and mistreatment, and the long term effects of such abuse and mistreatment. She documents, for instance, that excessive obedience to authority is something that is learned in childhood, and is a natural result of childhood mistreatment, and fear of offending or displeasing one’s parents (or caretakers).

According to Alice Miller, it is essential for both individuals and society as a whole to become aware of and to take seriously the actual sufferings of children from abuse and mistreatment, much of which is done in the name of upbringing, and the long term damage as a result of such mistreatment.

What is essential for an individual person, according to Alice Miller, is to become aware, at the feeling level (as opposed to just intellectually), of what really happened to the person in childhood, and especially to dare to go against the deep-seated societal taboos about holding one’s parents (and other early caregivers and authority figures) accountable and responsible, rather than protecting them or exonerating them from any and all blame, or “forgiving” them. The commandment in the Bible to “honor your father and mother”, which in the biblical text does not make any exceptions if one’s parents are abusive or are otherwise not worthy of honor, and which unfortunately lies in the heart of traditional Judeo-Christian morality, is one such taboo.

If as a child one is mortally afraid of displeasing or offending one’s parents, then an obvious natural consequence is that the person as an adult will not be able to disobey authority figures.

As I have explained in this post in your earlier thread, I myself had a very difficult father, who did many very good things, but who also was often very overbearing and judgmental, and sometimes bordered on being abusive. I consider it to have been a very healthy milestone in my life to come to fully realize, a little over a year after my dad died, that some of his behavior was actually abusive at times. I.e. it was not just something wrong with me that I had problems with him. One of the major regrets and disappointments of my life was that I was not able to confront my dad or stand up to him the way I would have wanted to while he was alive.

Along with the realization that my dad had sometimes bordered on being abusive, I also came to realize that my having been a Christian, and supposedly having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, had not been of help to me in enabling me to deal with my dad, or with any other problems that I had. I eventually parted company with the Christian faith, and feel as certain as I do of anything that doing so was the right and healthy thing for me to do.

A common example of excessive obedience to authority, in our society, is that of the fundamentalist Christian to the idea that the Bible is the “inspired and inerrant Word of God”, and is not to be questioned or challenged. Thus a person can only be “saved” by “accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior” in this present lifetime. If a person misses his or her chance in this lifetime, for whatever reason, or happens to guess wrong by adhering to a religion other than Christianity, tough luck for that person. If a murder victim is “unsaved”, tough luck for the victim. However if the murderer later “repents” and “accepts Christ”, the murder is let into heaven. That is what the Bible says, that is what God says, and God’s ways are higher than our ways, and past finding out. Who are we to question God?

It is not surprising that fundamentalist Christians, notably James Dobson, advocate physical discipline (spanking) of children, and that fundamentalist Christians come from backgrounds where that is practiced. It is not surprising to hear about fundamentalist Christian families that are very dysfunctional. It is not surprising that somebody like Andrea Yates, who drowned her five children in a bathtub, had felt very inadequate and unfit as a Christian mother, and had felt that it was necessary to kill her five children in order to save them from hell.

It is not surprising to hear of the Quiverfull movement, in which couples consider it to be a matter of obedience to have as many children as God would choose to bestow, and consider even contraception, not to mention abortion, to be wrong.

It is not surprising that fundamentalist Christians want to display the Ten Commandments in public places, one of which says to “honor your father and mother”, and makes no exceptions if one’s parents are or have been abusive or are otherwise not deserving of honor.

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  Excessive Obedience to Authority Time for change  May-31-09 12:27 AM   #0 
   It is  Mojorabbit   May-31-09 12:44 AM   #1 
   Yes  Time for change   May-31-09 03:44 PM   #60 
   Capitalism is more likely the problem. nt  anonymous171   May-31-09 12:46 AM   #2 
   and the almighty Corporfuckrations!! nt  Patchuli   May-31-09 12:56 AM   #6 
   You said it. It's not "authoritarians" that are the problem. It's Wall Street. /nt  readmoreoften   May-31-09 04:18 AM   #16 
   You don't think that Wall Street contains a lot of authoritarians?  Time for change   May-31-09 06:26 PM   #70 
   Wow, in one sentence you dismiss the OPs point....  skooooo   May-31-09 02:56 PM   #57 
   It's capitalism that creates the ideology  OnyxCollie   May-31-09 04:25 PM   #62 
      That makes no sense..  skooooo   May-31-09 05:14 PM   #63 
         That’s part of the problem,  Larry Ogg   May-31-09 05:55 PM   #67 
         So it's not capitalism, but authoritarianism..and subservience.nt  skooooo   May-31-09 05:58 PM   #68 
         Semiotic Marxism.  OnyxCollie   May-31-09 07:58 PM   #74 
   Might you consider that Capitalism is product of Social Dominators? n/t  Larry Ogg   May-31-09 05:31 PM   #66 
   Imho, this post speaks to the core of the problem Zinn identifies.  EFerrari   May-31-09 12:47 AM   #3 
   "Real negotiation, not capitulation"  Time for change   May-31-09 11:23 AM   #42 
      It has to be. He knows there's threat. Something else, too.  EFerrari   May-31-09 11:43 AM   #45 
   Very thought-provoking post--  vixengrl   May-31-09 12:51 AM   #4 
   Authoritarian personalities, leaders and followers, think consequences  EFerrari   May-31-09 12:53 AM   #5 
   The Bush Administration cronies, esp. the Cheneys, and the  vixengrl   May-31-09 12:58 AM   #7 
      " Caesar never did wrong but with just cause" -- WS  EFerrari   May-31-09 01:02 AM   #9 
   Yes  Time for change   May-31-09 07:34 PM   #73 
   So many reasons why mind control and cookie cutter  midnight   May-31-09 01:02 AM   #8 
   Me, I blame the mirror neurons.  Critters2   May-31-09 01:09 AM   #10 
   that Nova video was the most enlightening 14 minutes of my week  canoeist52   May-31-09 09:11 AM   #34 
      It has deep implications. nt  Critters2   May-31-09 03:16 PM   #58 
   This is why I stress questioning authority at every turn...  Mythsaje   May-31-09 02:31 AM   #11 
   I'm much the same way  Time for change   May-31-09 08:49 PM   #76 
   As the daughter of a WWII veteran, I heard all my young life ...  puebloknot   May-31-09 02:38 AM   #12 
   I had forgotten that!. .You are right. It was the ability and  annabanana   May-31-09 06:41 AM   #23 
   Ironic.  bvar22   May-31-09 12:07 PM   #48 
      Reminds me of a cartoon I saw yesterday...  twitomy   May-31-09 09:44 PM   #81 
   Thank you puebloknot  Time for change   May-31-09 09:20 PM   #78 
   Authoritarian Assault  jotsy   May-31-09 02:57 AM   #13 
   Big pharma sells a lot of drugs to help people "fit in" and "function properly". nt  AdHocSolver   May-31-09 03:36 AM   #15 
   That isn't fair  spoony   May-31-09 04:50 AM   #19 
      Actually, your answer and the one you were answering are likely both right  tavalon   May-31-09 08:20 AM   #28 
         Yes, I think they're both right  Time for change   Jun-01-09 12:15 AM   #94 
            Absolutely!  tavalon   Jun-01-09 04:01 AM   #100 
   absolutely right  conscious evolution   May-31-09 08:52 AM   #30 
   "We all owe it to ourselves and one another to be ever so much more than they have programmed us"  Time for change   May-31-09 09:30 PM   #79 
   A handful of interlocking corporate monopolies control the U.S. economy, media, and education.  AdHocSolver   May-31-09 03:21 AM   #14 
   Another thing that adds a dimension of complication to fixing this problem  Lyric   May-31-09 04:18 AM   #17 
   Today's political landscape as I see it  Time for change   May-31-09 09:43 AM   #37 
      I Agree With All You've Said... But WHAT Can We Do??? I'm At My Wit's End &  ChiciB1   May-31-09 10:18 AM   #39 
         History is full of cycles and ups and downs  Time for change   May-31-09 01:43 PM   #52 
         I've Stopped Using The Word HOPE... Again!! Used It For A Little While  ChiciB1   Jun-01-09 11:05 AM   #103 
         Boy does your post resonate with me.  truedelphi   Jun-01-09 12:26 AM   #95 
            Her Name Is Christine Jennings... She Lives In MY COUNTY & She's the One  ChiciB1   Jun-01-09 10:56 AM   #102 
               Likeyou say - BOHICA!  truedelphi   Jun-01-09 02:50 PM   #105 
   You have just described  voc   May-31-09 04:43 AM   #18 
   scary,huh?  conscious evolution   May-31-09 08:55 AM   #31 
   Thank you  Time for change   May-31-09 10:06 PM   #82 
   This is why the "Dirty Fucking Hippies" are perceived as such a threat..  Fumesucker   May-31-09 05:16 AM   #20 
   There's always been an underlying anti-Left ideological bent to the phony "war on drugs."  Echo In Light   May-31-09 07:54 AM   #26 
   an underlying anti-Left ideological bent to the phony "war on drugs." What The F?  The Bakery Wagon   May-31-09 08:29 AM   #29 
      So, you considered the Clinton admin to actually be Leftist? I don't  Echo In Light   May-31-09 09:01 AM   #33 
      Need any help packing, dogbreath?  NoPasaran   May-31-09 09:11 AM   #35 
      I for one do not hate real libertarians..  Fumesucker   May-31-09 11:52 AM   #46 
      I'm a left libertarian  Mythsaje   Jun-01-09 05:32 AM   #101 
      The Right Wing of the Democratic Party....  bvar22   May-31-09 12:18 PM   #49 
      Libertarians are "hated" here because their philosophy  Lyric   May-31-09 03:25 PM   #59 
   *sigh* DFHs and their unwarranted self-importance.  anonymous171   May-31-09 02:17 PM   #54 
   The drug war has been around for many years. . . even before the PIC reached its current  bertman   May-31-09 05:25 PM   #64 
   The drug war started in the very early years of the last century..  Fumesucker   May-31-09 06:56 PM   #71 
   So speaks one of our very own RWAs.  Greyhound   Jun-01-09 03:28 AM   #99 
      "RWA"?nt  anonymous171   Jun-01-09 02:37 PM   #104 
         Didn't read the piece did you?  Greyhound   Jun-02-09 01:27 AM   #107 
   I abhore victimless crimes  Time for change   May-31-09 10:28 PM   #84 
   DFH here reporting for duty!  truedelphi   Jun-02-09 03:49 PM   #110 
   As a Psych Professor, I find it incredibly frustrating that...  Bonn1997   May-31-09 05:56 AM   #21 
   Who is publishing  conscious evolution   May-31-09 08:58 AM   #32 
      What happens is that  Bonn1997   May-31-09 09:15 AM   #36 
   In all these responses I see no mention....  wuvuj   May-31-09 06:22 AM   #22 
   No mention of the military?  Time for change   May-31-09 07:47 AM   #24 
   Zinn is completely against militarization, and he served as a much younger man  Echo In Light   May-31-09 07:50 AM   #25 
      I love the quote of his that I used at the end of the OP  Time for change   May-31-09 11:01 PM   #87 
   Not sure what you mean about borrowed time.  truedelphi   Jun-02-09 03:47 PM   #109 
   K&R  Wednesdays   May-31-09 08:03 AM   #27 
   John Dean & Bob Altemeyer  Grins   May-31-09 09:44 AM   #38 
   That's how I first learned about him too  Time for change   May-31-09 11:03 PM   #88 
   Excessive Obedience - To Whom Do We Obey?  Moral Compass   May-31-09 10:18 AM   #40 
   Well said and welcome to DU.  glitch   May-31-09 10:40 AM   #41 
   I would say  Dubiosus   May-31-09 12:04 PM   #47 
   Yes, I agree with that for the most part  Time for change   May-31-09 12:43 PM   #50 
   Well, Obama never promised or wanted those "things that many of us are demanding"  ProgressIn2008   May-31-09 12:58 PM   #51 
   absolutely ProgressIn2008 !! eom  flyarm   May-31-09 02:52 PM   #56 
   Great post, especially the part about the puppets and the puppeteers.  Raksha   May-31-09 06:06 PM   #69 
   “Blind obedience to authority is the enemy of the truth.” Albert Einstein  L0oniX   May-31-09 11:23 AM   #43 
   thanks  ro1942   May-31-09 11:35 AM   #44 
   Give Americans 4 to 5 weeks paid vacations and  Mithreal   May-31-09 02:09 PM   #53 
   Glad you liked it  Time for change   May-31-09 11:06 PM   #89 
   To have this become a reality as it has become  ooglymoogly   May-31-09 02:44 PM   #55 
   'Law controls the lesser man. Integrity controls the greater.' -- Confucius  Octafish   May-31-09 03:58 PM   #61 
   That's the big challenge Octafish  Time for change   May-31-09 11:57 PM   #93 
   I am no expert either but then;  Larry Ogg   May-31-09 05:25 PM   #65 
   There are also a lot of phony authorities out there  Demeter   May-31-09 07:16 PM   #72 
   That picture plus the quote is worth 10 thousand words  Time for change   May-31-09 11:14 PM   #90 
   who's it by: is it "Winston Smith"? (also in Palast books)  MisterP   Jun-01-09 12:26 AM   #96 
   This blind obedience to authority meme is not a recent phenomenon. It has been cultivated  bertman   May-31-09 08:24 PM   #75 
   Thank you bertman -- I like your analogy to the herd of sheep  Time for change   May-31-09 11:20 PM   #91 
   Control the dialog..control the media..control the "perception"  lib2DaBone   May-31-09 09:10 PM   #77 
   There are, unfortunately, MANY authoritarians on DU  FlyingSquirrel   May-31-09 09:33 PM   #80 
   I'm with you on the third rule  Time for change   May-31-09 11:25 PM   #92 
   K&R  Richard Steele   May-31-09 10:14 PM   #83 
   Every OCTer I know has the classic authoritarian personality.  Prometheus Bound   May-31-09 10:36 PM   #85 
   Too much TV  Indy Lurker   May-31-09 10:38 PM   #86 
   right wing personality  undergroundpanther   Jun-01-09 12:48 AM   #97 
   Damn, too late to recommend. Excellent.  Greyhound   Jun-01-09 03:20 AM   #98 
   Thank you. Critically important.  emsimon33   Jun-01-09 05:15 PM   #106 
   teaching nonconformism  NJCher   Jun-02-09 02:15 AM   #108 
   Alice Miller discusses origins of excessive obedience to authority in childhood upbringing  MikeH   Jun-05-09 07:19 PM   #111 
 

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