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Reply #55: Confusing baloney at best. MUST distinguish between DEMANDS made and GRUDGING gains! [View All]

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Land Shark (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat May-30-09 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
55. Confusing baloney at best. MUST distinguish between DEMANDS made and GRUDGING gains!

The DEMAND must always be for the full measure of rights. Just google Martin Luther King Jr quotes for the "Tranquilizing drug of gradualism" and his conclusion:

"This is no time to engage in the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism. Now is the time to make real the promises of democracy."

MLK: "‘Wait’ has almost always meant ‘Never.’"

Half a right, like every other day off from torture, is NO RIGHT AT ALL. Half a right, an incremental gain in non-torture, is just a continuing violation, IF the right is Fundamental (the key distinction of the OP)

The GAINS may sometimes be "incremental" or claimed to be incremental progress (even if not at all progress) because they are only grudgingly given up by the status quo.

But make no mistake, DEMANDS for incremental gains on fundamental rights like voting are ethically, politically and even TACTICALLY highly mistaken, self-defeating and wrong, because it's wrong to ADVOCATE publicly in favor of injustice. Only with public regret and caveats can such be accepted, and even then only if it's not a fundamental right like voting, voting systems, torture, etc.

Even teenagers know to ask for the car for the whole night or weekend and then "compromise" UNDER PROTEST AND COMPLAINT with an agreement for 3 hours on Friday night. Even teenagers don't PUBLICLY (in front of parents) celebrate or approve such "incremental" wins. Possibly, they may privately amongst themselves still have a great time and be happy they can get out just a little, but they'll be back for more.

And they'll be UNDERSTANDABLY back for more. FREEDOM and the yearning for it, even if at too young an age, is human, necessary, and should never be shackled in chains.
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  On huge issues, incrementalism doesn't work - you buy in to the big picture or you don't. Phoebe Loosinhouse  May-29-09 09:06 PM   #0 
   K to the mighty damn right R  Solly Mack   May-29-09 09:07 PM   #1 
   I agree with your statement. I've tried to make this point before. NT  Mike 03   May-29-09 09:08 PM   #2 
   This is such a key concept. Kick and rec. NT  Mike 03   May-29-09 09:08 PM   #3 
   Incrementalism work well for the RATpubliCONs  FreakinDJ   May-29-09 09:09 PM   #4 
   Right On!  patrice   May-29-09 11:19 PM   #5 
   Universal Health Insurance works fine for me...  Oregone   May-30-09 12:07 AM   #6 
   Universal health insurance and single payer are not necessarily the same thing..  Fumesucker   May-30-09 03:38 AM   #10 
      Im not sure why people entertain the notion of using the word "Universal" for that  Oregone   May-30-09 12:54 PM   #25 
      I was careful to be explicit that Universal healthcare was the goal  Phoebe Loosinhouse   May-30-09 01:16 PM   #26 
         Jessie Jackson in his 1988 presidential bid used the term Universal health care to mean single payer  John Q. Citizen   May-30-09 09:47 PM   #80 
   All case studies in incrementalisim. You don't get to the watershed moments in single bounds.  TheKentuckian   May-30-09 03:18 AM   #7 
   Good points, Kentuckian.  Darth_Ole   May-30-09 03:32 AM   #8 
   You don't understand incrementalism.  Jakes Progress   May-30-09 03:34 AM   #9 
   Thanks, Jake - that is exactly what I meant.  Phoebe Loosinhouse   May-30-09 06:36 AM   #12 
   For most slaves in the west, your statement is exactly wrong  HamdenRice   May-30-09 09:07 AM   #19 
      But it was not this kind of incrementalism  Jakes Progress   May-30-09 10:13 AM   #20 
         "It was not a matter of people sitting down and planning a step-by-step"  HamdenRice   May-30-09 10:44 AM   #22 
            Sounds like a history book version.  Jakes Progress   May-30-09 01:32 PM   #28 
               Well, facts are facts  HamdenRice   May-30-09 01:43 PM   #30 
                  Not your facts.  Jakes Progress   May-30-09 01:50 PM   #33 
                     Okey, Dokey  HamdenRice   May-30-09 01:54 PM   #34 
                        What was your plan  Jakes Progress   May-30-09 02:01 PM   #37 
                        I'm merely pointing out historical inaccuracies, not making plans  HamdenRice   May-30-09 02:08 PM   #40 
                           Your views of history  Jakes Progress   May-30-09 06:17 PM   #58 
                              Ah, here's where you go off the rails: "You call for a slow, long, buildup"  HamdenRice   May-30-09 06:27 PM   #59 
                                 So there is no point?  Jakes Progress   May-30-09 06:34 PM   #62 
                                    Of course there is a point. History is important!  HamdenRice   May-30-09 06:43 PM   #64 
                                       Nail on the head. I, too, identified the inaccuracies in the OP,  Fire1   May-30-09 08:19 PM   #72 
                                       check out this post and see if your points re "history" are all that relevant  Land Shark   May-30-09 09:15 PM   #77 
                                       But, but that makes history so messy.  Jakes Progress   May-30-09 11:41 PM   #87 
                                          I've no objection to "planning" in the abstract, only to the "incremental" assumption of linear slow  Land Shark   May-31-09 01:33 AM   #93 
                                       A real historian  Jakes Progress   May-30-09 11:55 PM   #89 
                                          Wrong again: "You interpretation seems to say that real change come by waiting"  HamdenRice   May-31-09 07:23 AM   #97 
                                             K & R for having the patience to argue with people who feel entitled to their own facts. n/t  BzaDem   May-31-09 07:48 AM   #98 
                                             As you feel entitled to your own facts. nt  Jakes Progress   May-31-09 11:51 PM   #109 
                                             Correction  HamdenRice   May-31-09 08:48 AM   #100 
                                             Inanity.  Jakes Progress   Jun-01-09 12:16 AM   #111 
                                                Talk about inane  HamdenRice   Jun-01-09 07:28 AM   #112 
                                                Call the king's men. You've fallen from the wall.  Jakes Progress   Jun-01-09 11:19 AM   #113 
                                                Your perspective is noted. Facts don't exist. Historical examples can be made up.  HamdenRice   Jun-01-09 01:29 PM   #119 
                                                Still waiting  Jakes Progress   Jun-01-09 02:18 PM   #123 
                        A quote on point from Martin Luther King Jr. is here that contradicts your "planners" point  Land Shark   May-30-09 09:38 PM   #79 
                           Oh those silly quotes.  Jakes Progress   May-30-09 11:43 PM   #88 
                              Irony and sarcasm and ridicule duly noted and concurred with... nt  Land Shark   May-31-09 10:58 AM   #103 
   The acceptance of the goal, the idea that it must be achieved, does happen at once.  Greyhound   May-30-09 02:11 PM   #41 
   I think any sane person would agree. n/t  Fire1   May-30-09 08:21 PM   #73 
   Slavery, Civil Rights , Woman's Sufferage  PufPuf23   May-30-09 02:32 PM   #46 
   We've been incremental  ProudDad   May-30-09 06:52 PM   #65 
   You are exactly right.  Number23   May-30-09 07:46 PM   #70 
   But we have medicare, VA, Medicade, and Schip, So it's time to take that final incrimental leap to  John Q. Citizen   May-30-09 09:52 PM   #81 
   OK, how about, post 9-11, the patriot act, afghanistan, torture and Iraq? Massive worldwide moves..  Land Shark   May-30-09 09:52 PM   #82 
   That's what 9-11 was for....see?  NoSheep   Jun-01-09 11:55 AM   #118 
   My thoughts exactly.  NoSheep   Jun-01-09 11:52 AM   #117 
   Thank you. I wish I knew more about the DuBois-Washington "feud" than I do ...  ColbertWatcher   May-30-09 03:39 AM   #11 
   Absolutely  tavalon   May-30-09 06:54 AM   #13 
   Completely and totally historically inaccurate. All those struggles were won incrementally.  HamdenRice   May-30-09 08:31 AM   #14 
   Please see posts 9 and 12. nt.  Phoebe Loosinhouse   May-30-09 08:34 AM   #15 
   posts 9 and 12 are simply historically wrong.  HamdenRice   May-30-09 08:38 AM   #16 
      Well, both posts are so clear, I didn't see any need to restate them.  Phoebe Loosinhouse   May-30-09 08:57 AM   #17 
      A statement can be "clear" and also "clearly wrong"  HamdenRice   May-30-09 09:03 AM   #18 
         Thought provoking thread.  Usrename   May-30-09 10:31 AM   #21 
         Correct.  Jakes Progress   May-30-09 01:45 PM   #31 
         Two points of information  HamdenRice   May-30-09 02:00 PM   #36 
            Your points prove mine.  Jakes Progress   May-30-09 02:02 PM   #38 
            That useless grandiose symbolic action is better than well planned incremental action?  HamdenRice   May-30-09 02:06 PM   #39 
            What was grandiose or symbolic  Jakes Progress   May-30-09 06:30 PM   #61 
            If you say so.  BzaDem   May-31-09 07:55 AM   #99 
               "up is down, left is right"  HamdenRice   May-31-09 08:49 AM   #101 
            Bradley AND Eleanor. n/t  Fire1   May-30-09 08:28 PM   #74 
         I agree, and there are other examples besides the battle over health care.  Raksha   May-30-09 02:50 PM   #51 
            Exactly!  Usrename   May-30-09 11:00 PM   #86 
         Here is your error.  Jakes Progress   May-30-09 01:57 PM   #35 
            Once again, you seem to be responding to things that are in your own mind, not in this thread  HamdenRice   May-31-09 09:17 AM   #102 
      Posts 9 and 12 are not wrong.  Jakes Progress   May-30-09 01:34 PM   #29 
         Now you sound like an idiot. Who else would discredit facts? n/t  Fire1   May-30-09 08:34 PM   #75 
            Not much of a historian, eh? Sounds stupid. nt  Jakes Progress   May-30-09 11:58 PM   #90 
               What exactly is your dispute? It's not clear.  Fire1   May-31-09 12:24 AM   #92 
                  If that is your position,  Jakes Progress   Jun-01-09 12:06 AM   #110 
                     For the sake of what I think is your position on 'incrementalism'  Fire1   Jun-01-09 09:54 PM   #125 
   Confusing baloney at best. MUST distinguish between DEMANDS made and GRUDGING gains!  Land Shark   May-30-09 05:45 PM   #55 
   Absolutely fantastic post ! MLK - "the tranquilizing drug of gradulism"  Phoebe Loosinhouse   May-30-09 06:07 PM   #56 
      Thanks kindly. OK incrementalists, come and get it. YOU'RE BEING CHALLENGED (See below)  Land Shark   May-30-09 07:53 PM   #71 
         I'm replying to kick your post here.  Starry Messenger   May-30-09 10:18 PM   #83 
            Starry Messenger, what a great name! and thanks... nt  Land Shark   May-31-09 01:35 AM   #94 
               =)  Starry Messenger   May-31-09 03:04 AM   #96 
                  Forgot to mention that I like your autosig quote as well! :)  Land Shark   May-31-09 11:16 AM   #104 
   And Single-Payer Health care  ProudDad   May-30-09 06:58 PM   #67 
      This is what incrementalists refuse to acknowledge.  Jakes Progress   May-31-09 12:03 AM   #91 
      "Now we need a Truman or King to actually do something."  leftstreet   May-31-09 01:41 AM   #95 
      Single payer is the way to go - get the profit out of not paying for illness.  bluedawg12   May-31-09 11:17 AM   #105 
   k&r  blindpig   May-30-09 10:57 AM   #23 
   Insurance companies running health care policy? What a joke!  bluedawg12   May-31-09 11:22 AM   #106 
   Fortunately, the troublemakers who wanted those "changes" weren't "patient".  Tierra_y_Libertad   May-30-09 11:01 AM   #24 
   k&r  Starry Messenger   May-30-09 01:31 PM   #27 
   recommend  xchrom   May-30-09 01:49 PM   #32 
   Error: You've already recommended that thread. n/t  Greyhound   May-30-09 02:13 PM   #42 
   so that means you are willing to lose now and fight for another 40 years?  hfojvt   May-30-09 02:13 PM   #43 
   I am saying we are at a tipping point where great change could be effected  Phoebe Loosinhouse   May-30-09 02:37 PM   #47 
      seems to me that on all those issues  hfojvt   May-30-09 03:00 PM   #52 
      particularly if we had Democratic leaders willing to lead.  ProudDad   May-30-09 07:01 PM   #68 
   lol!  BlooInBloo   May-30-09 02:23 PM   #44 
   Gay Marriage is a legal imperative, not a moral one. nt  anonymous171   May-30-09 02:26 PM   #45 
   Gee, I think it's both (n/t)  ProudDad   May-30-09 07:02 PM   #69 
   Strongly agree -- all the more so because "incrementalism" can turn into a smokescreen  ProgressIn2008   May-30-09 02:43 PM   #48 
   I think this is flawed in at least two ways.  Donald Ian Rankin   May-30-09 02:44 PM   #49 
   I can help with that.  Jakes Progress   May-30-09 06:12 PM   #57 
   K&R  pleah   May-30-09 02:47 PM   #50 
   Another kick. Maybe a few of us can keep the real issues in front of the distracted.  Greyhound   May-30-09 05:22 PM   #53 
   K&R --- ALSO INCLUDES TRANSPARENCY IN VOTING SYSTEMS (no secrecy holes allowed) nt  Land Shark   May-30-09 05:33 PM   #54 
   Torture is the "huge issue."  Senator   May-30-09 06:29 PM   #60 
   We can multi-task and in fact we have to multi-task.  Phoebe Loosinhouse   May-30-09 06:41 PM   #63 
      Of course. But to the point of your OP.  Senator   May-30-09 09:22 PM   #78 
   It's unfortunate  ProudDad   May-30-09 06:56 PM   #66 
   Winner: {some} "more interested in arguing .. {details of} "history" than GETTING RIGHT DONE. nt  Land Shark   May-30-09 10:23 PM   #84 
   It is not accepting or rejecting moral imperatives  DissedByBush   May-30-09 09:13 PM   #76 
   I think you just defined the tipping point.  Phoebe Loosinhouse   May-30-09 10:27 PM   #85 
   The laws are in place - it's the misuse of laws and justice framed in moralistic terms  bluedawg12   May-31-09 11:27 AM   #107 
      They'll see your logic and raise you  DissedByBush   May-31-09 02:48 PM   #108 
   I think that we're confusing incrementalism in achieving a goal  lumberjack_jeff   Jun-01-09 11:32 AM   #114 
   The goal was not arrived at incrementally?  redqueen   Jun-01-09 11:36 AM   #115 
      Re-read please. I think it took 140 years.  lumberjack_jeff   Jun-01-09 01:43 PM   #121 
         So this is about the idea, not the fight?  redqueen   Jun-01-09 02:00 PM   #122 
            Debatable.  lumberjack_jeff   Jun-01-09 02:20 PM   #124 
   There has never been...  Orwellian_Ghost   Jun-01-09 11:49 AM   #116 
      "No Democrat has ever done jack"  HamdenRice   Jun-01-09 01:33 PM   #120 
 

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