Land Shark
(1000+ posts)
|
Sat May-30-09 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #14 |
| 55. Confusing baloney at best. MUST distinguish between DEMANDS made and GRUDGING gains! |
 |
The DEMAND must always be for the full measure of rights. Just google Martin Luther King Jr quotes for the "Tranquilizing drug of gradualism" and his conclusion:
"This is no time to engage in the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism. Now is the time to make real the promises of democracy."
MLK: "‘Wait’ has almost always meant ‘Never.’"
Half a right, like every other day off from torture, is NO RIGHT AT ALL. Half a right, an incremental gain in non-torture, is just a continuing violation, IF the right is Fundamental (the key distinction of the OP)
The GAINS may sometimes be "incremental" or claimed to be incremental progress (even if not at all progress) because they are only grudgingly given up by the status quo.
But make no mistake, DEMANDS for incremental gains on fundamental rights like voting are ethically, politically and even TACTICALLY highly mistaken, self-defeating and wrong, because it's wrong to ADVOCATE publicly in favor of injustice. Only with public regret and caveats can such be accepted, and even then only if it's not a fundamental right like voting, voting systems, torture, etc.
Even teenagers know to ask for the car for the whole night or weekend and then "compromise" UNDER PROTEST AND COMPLAINT with an agreement for 3 hours on Friday night. Even teenagers don't PUBLICLY (in front of parents) celebrate or approve such "incremental" wins. Possibly, they may privately amongst themselves still have a great time and be happy they can get out just a little, but they'll be back for more.
And they'll be UNDERSTANDABLY back for more. FREEDOM and the yearning for it, even if at too young an age, is human, necessary, and should never be shackled in chains.
|
On huge issues, incrementalism doesn't work - you buy in to the big picture or you don't. |
Phoebe Loosinhouse |
May-29-09 09:06 PM |
#0 |

K to the mighty damn right R |
Solly Mack |
May-29-09 09:07 PM |
#1 |

I agree with your statement. I've tried to make this point before. NT |
Mike 03 |
May-29-09 09:08 PM |
#2 |

This is such a key concept. Kick and rec. NT |
Mike 03 |
May-29-09 09:08 PM |
#3 |

Incrementalism work well for the RATpubliCONs |
FreakinDJ |
May-29-09 09:09 PM |
#4 |

Right On! |
patrice |
May-29-09 11:19 PM |
#5 |

Universal Health Insurance works fine for me... |
Oregone |
May-30-09 12:07 AM |
#6 |
 
Universal health insurance and single payer are not necessarily the same thing.. |
Fumesucker |
May-30-09 03:38 AM |
#10 |

Im not sure why people entertain the notion of using the word "Universal" for that |
Oregone |
May-30-09 12:54 PM |
#25 |

I was careful to be explicit that Universal healthcare was the goal |
Phoebe Loosinhouse |
May-30-09 01:16 PM |
#26 |

Jessie Jackson in his 1988 presidential bid used the term Universal health care to mean single payer |
John Q. Citizen |
May-30-09 09:47 PM |
#80 |

All case studies in incrementalisim. You don't get to the watershed moments in single bounds. |
TheKentuckian |
May-30-09 03:18 AM |
#7 |
 
Good points, Kentuckian. |
Darth_Ole |
May-30-09 03:32 AM |
#8 |
 
You don't understand incrementalism. |
Jakes Progress |
May-30-09 03:34 AM |
#9 |
  
Thanks, Jake - that is exactly what I meant. |
Phoebe Loosinhouse |
May-30-09 06:36 AM |
#12 |
  
For most slaves in the west, your statement is exactly wrong |
HamdenRice |
May-30-09 09:07 AM |
#19 |
 
But it was not this kind of incrementalism |
Jakes Progress |
May-30-09 10:13 AM |
#20 |
 
"It was not a matter of people sitting down and planning a step-by-step" |
HamdenRice |
May-30-09 10:44 AM |
#22 |
 
Sounds like a history book version. |
Jakes Progress |
May-30-09 01:32 PM |
#28 |
 
Well, facts are facts |
HamdenRice |
May-30-09 01:43 PM |
#30 |
 
Not your facts. |
Jakes Progress |
May-30-09 01:50 PM |
#33 |
 
Okey, Dokey |
HamdenRice |
May-30-09 01:54 PM |
#34 |
 
What was your plan |
Jakes Progress |
May-30-09 02:01 PM |
#37 |
  
I'm merely pointing out historical inaccuracies, not making plans |
HamdenRice |
May-30-09 02:08 PM |
#40 |
 
Your views of history |
Jakes Progress |
May-30-09 06:17 PM |
#58 |
 
Ah, here's where you go off the rails: "You call for a slow, long, buildup" |
HamdenRice |
May-30-09 06:27 PM |
#59 |
 
So there is no point? |
Jakes Progress |
May-30-09 06:34 PM |
#62 |
 
Of course there is a point. History is important! |
HamdenRice |
May-30-09 06:43 PM |
#64 |
 
Nail on the head. I, too, identified the inaccuracies in the OP, |
Fire1 |
May-30-09 08:19 PM |
#72 |
 
check out this post and see if your points re "history" are all that relevant |
Land Shark |
May-30-09 09:15 PM |
#77 |
  
But, but that makes history so messy. |
Jakes Progress |
May-30-09 11:41 PM |
#87 |
 
I've no objection to "planning" in the abstract, only to the "incremental" assumption of linear slow |
Land Shark |
May-31-09 01:33 AM |
#93 |
 
A real historian |
Jakes Progress |
May-30-09 11:55 PM |
#89 |
 
Wrong again: "You interpretation seems to say that real change come by waiting" |
HamdenRice |
May-31-09 07:23 AM |
#97 |
 
K & R for having the patience to argue with people who feel entitled to their own facts. n/t |
BzaDem |
May-31-09 07:48 AM |
#98 |
  
As you feel entitled to your own facts. nt |
Jakes Progress |
May-31-09 11:51 PM |
#109 |
 
Correction |
HamdenRice |
May-31-09 08:48 AM |
#100 |
 
Inanity. |
Jakes Progress |
Jun-01-09 12:16 AM |
#111 |
 
Talk about inane |
HamdenRice |
Jun-01-09 07:28 AM |
#112 |
 
Call the king's men. You've fallen from the wall. |
Jakes Progress |
Jun-01-09 11:19 AM |
#113 |
 
Your perspective is noted. Facts don't exist. Historical examples can be made up. |
HamdenRice |
Jun-01-09 01:29 PM |
#119 |
 
Still waiting |
Jakes Progress |
Jun-01-09 02:18 PM |
#123 |
 
A quote on point from Martin Luther King Jr. is here that contradicts your "planners" point |
Land Shark |
May-30-09 09:38 PM |
#79 |
 
Oh those silly quotes. |
Jakes Progress |
May-30-09 11:43 PM |
#88 |
 
Irony and sarcasm and ridicule duly noted and concurred with... nt |
Land Shark |
May-31-09 10:58 AM |
#103 |
 
The acceptance of the goal, the idea that it must be achieved, does happen at once. |
Greyhound |
May-30-09 02:11 PM |
#41 |
  
I think any sane person would agree. n/t |
Fire1 |
May-30-09 08:21 PM |
#73 |
 
Slavery, Civil Rights , Woman's Sufferage |
PufPuf23 |
May-30-09 02:32 PM |
#46 |
 
We've been incremental |
ProudDad |
May-30-09 06:52 PM |
#65 |
 
You are exactly right. |
Number23 |
May-30-09 07:46 PM |
#70 |
 
But we have medicare, VA, Medicade, and Schip, So it's time to take that final incrimental leap to |
John Q. Citizen |
May-30-09 09:52 PM |
#81 |
 
OK, how about, post 9-11, the patriot act, afghanistan, torture and Iraq? Massive worldwide moves.. |
Land Shark |
May-30-09 09:52 PM |
#82 |
  
That's what 9-11 was for....see? |
NoSheep |
Jun-01-09 11:55 AM |
#118 |
 
My thoughts exactly. |
NoSheep |
Jun-01-09 11:52 AM |
#117 |

Thank you. I wish I knew more about the DuBois-Washington "feud" than I do ... |
ColbertWatcher |
May-30-09 03:39 AM |
#11 |

Absolutely |
tavalon |
May-30-09 06:54 AM |
#13 |

Completely and totally historically inaccurate. All those struggles were won incrementally. |
HamdenRice |
May-30-09 08:31 AM |
#14 |
 
Please see posts 9 and 12. nt. |
Phoebe Loosinhouse |
May-30-09 08:34 AM |
#15 |
  
posts 9 and 12 are simply historically wrong. |
HamdenRice |
May-30-09 08:38 AM |
#16 |
 
Well, both posts are so clear, I didn't see any need to restate them. |
Phoebe Loosinhouse |
May-30-09 08:57 AM |
#17 |
  
A statement can be "clear" and also "clearly wrong" |
HamdenRice |
May-30-09 09:03 AM |
#18 |
 
Thought provoking thread. |
Usrename |
May-30-09 10:31 AM |
#21 |
  
Correct. |
Jakes Progress |
May-30-09 01:45 PM |
#31 |
   
Two points of information |
HamdenRice |
May-30-09 02:00 PM |
#36 |
  
Your points prove mine. |
Jakes Progress |
May-30-09 02:02 PM |
#38 |
   
That useless grandiose symbolic action is better than well planned incremental action? |
HamdenRice |
May-30-09 02:06 PM |
#39 |
    
What was grandiose or symbolic |
Jakes Progress |
May-30-09 06:30 PM |
#61 |
   
If you say so. |
BzaDem |
May-31-09 07:55 AM |
#99 |
  
"up is down, left is right" |
HamdenRice |
May-31-09 08:49 AM |
#101 |
  
Bradley AND Eleanor. n/t |
Fire1 |
May-30-09 08:28 PM |
#74 |
  
I agree, and there are other examples besides the battle over health care. |
Raksha |
May-30-09 02:50 PM |
#51 |
 
Exactly! |
Usrename |
May-30-09 11:00 PM |
#86 |
 
Here is your error. |
Jakes Progress |
May-30-09 01:57 PM |
#35 |
 
Once again, you seem to be responding to things that are in your own mind, not in this thread |
HamdenRice |
May-31-09 09:17 AM |
#102 |
 
Posts 9 and 12 are not wrong. |
Jakes Progress |
May-30-09 01:34 PM |
#29 |
 
Now you sound like an idiot. Who else would discredit facts? n/t |
Fire1 |
May-30-09 08:34 PM |
#75 |
 
Not much of a historian, eh? Sounds stupid. nt |
Jakes Progress |
May-30-09 11:58 PM |
#90 |
 
What exactly is your dispute? It's not clear. |
Fire1 |
May-31-09 12:24 AM |
#92 |
 
If that is your position, |
Jakes Progress |
Jun-01-09 12:06 AM |
#110 |
 
For the sake of what I think is your position on 'incrementalism' |
Fire1 |
Jun-01-09 09:54 PM |
#125 |
 
Confusing baloney at best. MUST distinguish between DEMANDS made and GRUDGING gains! |
Land Shark |
May-30-09 05:45 PM |
#55 |
  
Absolutely fantastic post ! MLK - "the tranquilizing drug of gradulism" |
Phoebe Loosinhouse |
May-30-09 06:07 PM |
#56 |
 
Thanks kindly. OK incrementalists, come and get it. YOU'RE BEING CHALLENGED (See below) |
Land Shark |
May-30-09 07:53 PM |
#71 |
 
I'm replying to kick your post here. |
Starry Messenger |
May-30-09 10:18 PM |
#83 |
 
Starry Messenger, what a great name! and thanks... nt |
Land Shark |
May-31-09 01:35 AM |
#94 |
 
=) |
Starry Messenger |
May-31-09 03:04 AM |
#96 |
 
Forgot to mention that I like your autosig quote as well! :) |
Land Shark |
May-31-09 11:16 AM |
#104 |
 
And Single-Payer Health care |
ProudDad |
May-30-09 06:58 PM |
#67 |

This is what incrementalists refuse to acknowledge. |
Jakes Progress |
May-31-09 12:03 AM |
#91 |
 
"Now we need a Truman or King to actually do something." |
leftstreet |
May-31-09 01:41 AM |
#95 |

Single payer is the way to go - get the profit out of not paying for illness. |
bluedawg12 |
May-31-09 11:17 AM |
#105 |

k&r |
blindpig |
May-30-09 10:57 AM |
#23 |
 
Insurance companies running health care policy? What a joke! |
bluedawg12 |
May-31-09 11:22 AM |
#106 |

Fortunately, the troublemakers who wanted those "changes" weren't "patient". |
Tierra_y_Libertad |
May-30-09 11:01 AM |
#24 |

k&r |
Starry Messenger |
May-30-09 01:31 PM |
#27 |

recommend |
xchrom |
May-30-09 01:49 PM |
#32 |

Error: You've already recommended that thread. n/t |
Greyhound |
May-30-09 02:13 PM |
#42 |

so that means you are willing to lose now and fight for another 40 years? |
hfojvt |
May-30-09 02:13 PM |
#43 |
 
I am saying we are at a tipping point where great change could be effected |
Phoebe Loosinhouse |
May-30-09 02:37 PM |
#47 |

seems to me that on all those issues |
hfojvt |
May-30-09 03:00 PM |
#52 |

particularly if we had Democratic leaders willing to lead. |
ProudDad |
May-30-09 07:01 PM |
#68 |

lol! |
BlooInBloo |
May-30-09 02:23 PM |
#44 |

Gay Marriage is a legal imperative, not a moral one. nt |
anonymous171 |
May-30-09 02:26 PM |
#45 |
 
Gee, I think it's both (n/t) |
ProudDad |
May-30-09 07:02 PM |
#69 |

Strongly agree -- all the more so because "incrementalism" can turn into a smokescreen |
ProgressIn2008 |
May-30-09 02:43 PM |
#48 |

I think this is flawed in at least two ways. |
Donald Ian Rankin |
May-30-09 02:44 PM |
#49 |
 
I can help with that. |
Jakes Progress |
May-30-09 06:12 PM |
#57 |

K&R |
pleah |
May-30-09 02:47 PM |
#50 |

Another kick. Maybe a few of us can keep the real issues in front of the distracted. |
Greyhound |
May-30-09 05:22 PM |
#53 |

K&R --- ALSO INCLUDES TRANSPARENCY IN VOTING SYSTEMS (no secrecy holes allowed) nt |
Land Shark |
May-30-09 05:33 PM |
#54 |

Torture is the "huge issue." |
Senator |
May-30-09 06:29 PM |
#60 |
 
We can multi-task and in fact we have to multi-task. |
Phoebe Loosinhouse |
May-30-09 06:41 PM |
#63 |

Of course. But to the point of your OP. |
Senator |
May-30-09 09:22 PM |
#78 |

It's unfortunate |
ProudDad |
May-30-09 06:56 PM |
#66 |
 
Winner: {some} "more interested in arguing .. {details of} "history" than GETTING RIGHT DONE. nt |
Land Shark |
May-30-09 10:23 PM |
#84 |

It is not accepting or rejecting moral imperatives |
DissedByBush |
May-30-09 09:13 PM |
#76 |
 
I think you just defined the tipping point. |
Phoebe Loosinhouse |
May-30-09 10:27 PM |
#85 |
 
The laws are in place - it's the misuse of laws and justice framed in moralistic terms |
bluedawg12 |
May-31-09 11:27 AM |
#107 |

They'll see your logic and raise you |
DissedByBush |
May-31-09 02:48 PM |
#108 |

I think that we're confusing incrementalism in achieving a goal |
lumberjack_jeff |
Jun-01-09 11:32 AM |
#114 |
 
The goal was not arrived at incrementally? |
redqueen |
Jun-01-09 11:36 AM |
#115 |

Re-read please. I think it took 140 years. |
lumberjack_jeff |
Jun-01-09 01:43 PM |
#121 |

So this is about the idea, not the fight? |
redqueen |
Jun-01-09 02:00 PM |
#122 |

Debatable. |
lumberjack_jeff |
Jun-01-09 02:20 PM |
#124 |

There has never been... |
Orwellian_Ghost |
Jun-01-09 11:49 AM |
#116 |

"No Democrat has ever done jack" |
HamdenRice |
Jun-01-09 01:33 PM |
#120 |