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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-11-09 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
45. not so much
the bad teachers as the fact that there is no INCENTIVE for being a good teacher vs. a mediocre one. as is the case in my job, fwiw. but at least in my job, there is some incentive if you are applying for specialized unit, to point to your record of achievement. with teachers, when pay is based solely on time served and (in many cases mediocre) degrees, there is no incentive to perform.

and then there is the fact that public schools are amazingly administration heavy, with a much greater %age of school funds paid towards administrators and administrating than teaching vs. most private schools.

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  -"Teacher Merit Pay": A smoke screen that obscures the objective of having a public education SYSTEM. TahitiNut  Mar-11-09 01:10 PM   #0 
  - I agree w/ this  enigmatic   Mar-11-09 01:14 PM   #1 
  - Me, too.  EFerrari   Mar-11-09 02:40 PM   #59 
  - It's predicated on a myth that there are a wealth of bad teachers out there...  HiFructosePronSyrup   Mar-11-09 01:14 PM   #2 
  - In my opinion, there's a significant subset of bad teachers out there  fed_up_mother   Mar-11-09 01:32 PM   #11 
  - In my opinion there's a significant subset...  HiFructosePronSyrup   Mar-11-09 01:36 PM   #14 
  - No doubt that is also very true. :)  fed_up_mother   Mar-11-09 01:44 PM   #23 
  - These conditions aren't mutually exclusive. nt  anigbrowl   Mar-11-09 01:46 PM   #24 
     - Yes, but I'm not calling for merit fines for parents.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Mar-11-09 02:35 PM   #56 
        - Actually, we tend to subsidize good parents  anigbrowl   Mar-11-09 02:51 PM   #62 
  - And there are "bad" employees in EVERY sector of the economy.  tonysam   Mar-11-09 02:12 PM   #43 
  - not so much  paulsby   Mar-11-09 02:14 PM   #45 
  - No incentive?  HelenWheels   Mar-11-09 02:59 PM   #63 
     - fine  paulsby   Mar-11-09 03:03 PM   #65 
  - merit pay will cause teachers to cheat about what they can achieve  roguevalley   Mar-11-09 02:17 PM   #48 
  - I'd be happier with two solutions  Cant trust em   Mar-11-09 01:15 PM   #3 
  - How many different teachers did you have in grades 1-12??  TahitiNut   Mar-11-09 01:24 PM   #6 
     - Long enough to know the difference between a good one and a bad one.  Cant trust em   Mar-11-09 01:30 PM   #10 
        - Try reading my OM again. You're engaging in a "chase the red herring" exercise.  TahitiNut   Mar-11-09 01:34 PM   #12 
        - Two questions: Are some teachers better than others? Does better teaching performance matter?  aikoaiko   Mar-11-09 01:37 PM   #15 
        - It's how good teachers should be defined is the question  Cant trust em   Mar-11-09 01:40 PM   #19 
           - I disagree, there is a place for standardized test scores in assessing teacher performance  aikoaiko   Mar-11-09 01:48 PM   #25 
              - OK. But it shouldn't be the only metric.  Cant trust em   Mar-11-09 01:49 PM   #28 
                 - I completely agree, standardized test scores should NOT be the only metric  aikoaiko   Mar-11-09 01:51 PM   #30 
        - Are you honestly telling me that you've never seen a bad teacher?  Cant trust em   Mar-11-09 01:41 PM   #20 
           - It's irrelevant.  TahitiNut   Mar-11-09 02:15 PM   #46 
              - No. You just want to have the discussion on your terms.  Cant trust em   Mar-11-09 02:20 PM   #50 
              - Never trust a teacher or any other employee who can't talk about the bad apples.  fed_up_mother   Mar-11-09 02:34 PM   #55 
                 - But, imho, Tahiti makes a good point: to focus only on "bad apple" teachers  EFerrari   Mar-11-09 03:03 PM   #66 
                    - Here's something else I wrote:  fed_up_mother   Mar-11-09 03:15 PM   #68 
                    - It's part of a bigger solution, but Tahiti wouldn't even admit to that being part of it.  Cant trust em   Mar-11-09 03:17 PM   #69 
                       - Well, I admit that in the grand scheme of things, it isn't even visible  EFerrari   Mar-11-09 03:26 PM   #74 
                          - Yes. It is a small part of a bigger picture  Cant trust em   Mar-11-09 03:40 PM   # 
              - Not if you or your offspring is stuck in a bad teacher's class  anigbrowl   Mar-11-09 04:31 PM   #80 
        - I immediately never trust any teacher who doesn't know of a bad teacher  fed_up_mother   Mar-11-09 01:38 PM   #16 
  - They want to turn schools into corporations. This is just one way.  madfloridian   Mar-11-09 01:18 PM   #4 
  - There should be an anti-education tax.  dcindian   Mar-11-09 01:22 PM   #5 
  - merit pay is generally invalid because.....  msongs   Mar-11-09 01:25 PM   #7 
  - Even your manager models is viable.  aikoaiko   Mar-11-09 01:29 PM   #9 
     - besides...  anigbrowl   Mar-11-09 01:38 PM   #17 
  - I wish we'd go to longer school days and longer school years.  aikoaiko   Mar-11-09 01:25 PM   #8 
  - True that. I'd go for shorter holidays, more homework.  anigbrowl   Mar-11-09 01:39 PM   #18 
  - I say we wire the little bastards up so they can still study while they're sleeping  FiveGoodMen   Mar-11-09 02:24 PM   #52 
  - I would have hated that when I was in school.  Cant trust em   Mar-11-09 01:42 PM   #21 
  - I think it would be a tough adjustment but this school schedule that was  aikoaiko   Mar-11-09 01:50 PM   #29 
     - People will get used to it.  Cant trust em   Mar-11-09 01:53 PM   #33 
  - I'd entertain such changes BUT NOT on a "one size fits all (grades)" assumption.  TahitiNut   Mar-11-09 02:40 PM   #60 
  - I'm in favor of both public education and merit pay  anigbrowl   Mar-11-09 01:34 PM   #13 
  - Very good points  fed_up_mother   Mar-11-09 01:48 PM   #26 
  - It's a big problem I had with Obama from the campaign and now.  SemiCharmedQuark   Mar-11-09 01:42 PM   #22 
  - It's not even a "solution" ... it's a red herring.  TahitiNut   Mar-11-09 02:01 PM   #38 
  - except it's not a "solution"  paulsby   Mar-11-09 02:16 PM   #47 
  - "Merit pay" is as lazy solution to a complex problem. QFT. n/t  ColbertWatcher   Mar-11-09 02:38 PM   #57 
  - Education shouldn't be equivalent to a production line. k&r  Tierra_y_Libertad   Mar-11-09 01:49 PM   #27 
  - My wife's story is illustrative of what the public school system can be.  scubadude   Mar-11-09 01:51 PM   #31 
  - Very good post.  fed_up_mother   Mar-11-09 01:55 PM   #34 
  - Merit pay has some unintended consequences.  NOW tense   Mar-11-09 01:51 PM   #32 
  - A smoke screen to obscure that learning is an individual measure  HereSince1628   Mar-11-09 01:56 PM   #35 
  - So...you blame the failure of schools on the students?  SemiCharmedQuark   Mar-11-09 02:02 PM   #39 
  - No I wouldn't say lazier... though they may not have the work ethic role models  Lost in CT   Mar-11-09 02:10 PM   #41 
  - What do you mean by "work ethic role models"?  SemiCharmedQuark   Mar-11-09 02:12 PM   #44 
  - Yes... wealthier students tend to have at least one parent fully employed  Lost in CT   Mar-11-09 02:21 PM   #51 
  - At the college level, ethnic differences in performance aren't so much laziness  HereSince1628   Mar-11-09 03:14 PM   #67 
     - "Students trained to believe that they cannot learn material through self-study are LOST"  Lost in CT   Mar-11-09 03:19 PM   #71 
        - Unfortunately, that philosophy guides Milwaukee school improvement.  HereSince1628   Mar-11-09 03:26 PM   #75 
  - Yes, and no, This is the problem, and I think you've somewhat overread that.  HereSince1628   Mar-11-09 03:01 PM   #64 
  - I share that ire.  TahitiNut   Mar-11-09 02:09 PM   #40 
  - A problem I have encountered with home-schooled kids attempting college  HereSince1628   Mar-11-09 03:22 PM   #73 
     - Yup. Indeed, if an education system is to prepare us for 'real' life ...  TahitiNut   Mar-11-09 03:33 PM   #77 
        - Unfortunately, within some subpopulations of our country the idea that learing is continuous  HereSince1628   Mar-11-09 03:40 PM   #78 
  - lol  paulsby   Mar-11-09 02:19 PM   #49 
     - If Americans are given an excuse from personal accountability, most will choose that  HereSince1628   Mar-11-09 02:27 PM   #53 
        - i agree about the excuse making  paulsby   Mar-11-09 02:32 PM   #54 
  - I agree, TH.  Waiting For Everyman   Mar-11-09 01:59 PM   #36 
  - Yeah! KICK AND REC! Thank you for posting this! n/t  ColbertWatcher   Mar-11-09 02:01 PM   #37 
  - The Crux of the Problem is People Who Push "Merit Pay" Schemes  tonysam   Mar-11-09 02:10 PM   #42 
  - Education, service and merit can all be measured.  fed_up_mother   Mar-11-09 02:39 PM   #58 
  - Exactly. There is a belief that government can be run as a business.  ColbertWatcher   Mar-11-09 02:50 PM   #61 
  - I don't think the step system is fair at all  anigbrowl   Mar-11-09 04:29 PM   #79 
  - There are 3 main components to the education problem...  BlooInBloo   Mar-11-09 03:18 PM   #70 
  - Enthusiastic K&R nt  Mithreal   Mar-11-09 03:22 PM   #72 
  - I imagine that merit pay for teacher's would be...  LanternWaste   Mar-11-09 03:27 PM   #76 
  - Have you noticed ...  TahitiNut   Mar-11-09 06:51 PM   #81 
  - there *are* bad teachers out there.  ulysses   Mar-11-09 08:29 PM   #82 
  - The conceptual framing of such discussions has been hijacked, imho.  TahitiNut   Mar-11-09 09:25 PM   #84 
  - "Saving" a system by targeting the employees as either Gods or Bad actors is silly.  MichiganVote   Mar-11-09 08:51 PM   #83 
  - I've seen it already.  lumberjack_jeff   Mar-12-09 10:30 AM   #85 
 

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