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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-09 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #108
110. any weather, except BAD weather. That's true.
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  -F-22 Cuts? Beavker  Feb-27-09 01:24 PM   #0 
  - I think Obama has consulted with the military.  tabatha   Feb-27-09 01:25 PM   #1 
  - That would be my take  Beavker   Feb-27-09 01:27 PM   #4 
  - By the way, I see that some of the over-priced weapons are made by General Dynamics.  tabatha   Feb-27-09 01:29 PM   #5 
  - Secretary Gates cut those crap-flies down to about 170, from an initial plan of 700  Kolesar   Feb-27-09 01:32 PM   #11 
  - A contrarian view:  n2doc   Feb-27-09 01:26 PM   #2 
  - It's a cold war boondoggle.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Feb-27-09 01:26 PM   #3 
  - I don't know about boondoggle, but it's certainly a Cold War relic.  Xithras   Feb-27-09 02:15 PM   #34 
     - Yep, we should be going with the F-35.  backscatter712   Feb-27-09 02:29 PM   #45 
  - Because we also have the 2nd and 3rd best, they cost a fraction of what the F-22 does,  Greyhound   Feb-27-09 01:30 PM   #6 
  - Especially when our "enemies" are successful with cell-phones, baling wire & C-4, and  SoCalDem   Feb-27-09 01:33 PM   #13 
  - Excellent point, SoCalDem.  Enthusiast   Feb-27-09 04:39 PM   #136 
  - You are wrong...  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 02:02 PM   #24 
  - Really? Which? n/t  Greyhound   Feb-27-09 02:30 PM   #48 
  - Here are a few that are on par with the F-15...  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 04:35 PM   #134 
  - What would be the price to forge new titanium structural members?  Tesha   Feb-27-09 04:29 PM   #132 
  - Not quite.  Angleae   Feb-27-09 03:25 PM   #79 
  - And I thought the Littoral Combat Ship was history, but, evidently not. Can someonen 'splain?  Captain Hilts   Feb-27-09 01:30 PM   #7 
  - Newer planes usually have a better flight hours to maintenance ratio. So, ...  Captain Hilts   Feb-27-09 01:31 PM   #8 
  - That would be sad if they cut the 22....that is an amazing jet  cboy4   Feb-27-09 01:31 PM   #9 
  - There are technical issues that prevent the F22 from being used in the battlespaces we are fighting  Bread and Circus   Feb-27-09 01:32 PM   #10 
  - USAF senior leaders including Secretary want more F-22 but Gates opposes. Why should Gates  jody   Feb-27-09 01:33 PM   #12 
  - USAF leaders follow their faith based initiatives w/ prayer.  ChairmanAgnostic   Feb-27-09 01:44 PM   #16 
  - You don't know what you're talking about, do you?  cboy4   Feb-27-09 01:53 PM   #19 
  - Looks like he does.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Feb-27-09 02:02 PM   #23 
     - let's not forget their minor nav-glitch.  ChairmanAgnostic   Feb-27-09 02:03 PM   #25 
     - Those 80286s were always a problem.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Feb-27-09 02:05 PM   #26 
        - sigh. Glitz vs. reality? glitz always wins.  ChairmanAgnostic   Feb-27-09 03:50 PM   #100 
     - That's an article dating all the way back to 1997 for crissakes.  cboy4   Feb-27-09 02:06 PM   #27 
        - And the F-22 dates back to 1981.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Feb-27-09 02:07 PM   #28 
           - It's a fantastic machine,  cboy4   Feb-27-09 02:10 PM   #30 
           - It's a fantastic waste of money.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Feb-27-09 02:14 PM   #32 
              - Read the article below about the F-15's falling apart  cboy4   Feb-27-09 02:18 PM   #37 
                 - Read what I wrote about fantastic stretches of the imagination.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Feb-27-09 02:24 PM   #39 
                    - The fighter pilots that know better don't seem to agree with my post below  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 02:26 PM   #42 
                    - The F-15's falling apart are fantastic stretches of imagination?  cboy4   Feb-27-09 02:27 PM   #43 
                       - One colossal waste of money to justify another...  HiFructosePronSyrup   Feb-27-09 02:28 PM   #44 
                          - Why do you refuse to acknowledge the cracking and aging  cboy4   Feb-27-09 02:31 PM   #49 
                             - Oh, I acknowledge it.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Feb-27-09 02:32 PM   #50 
                                - Yea, no shit.  cboy4   Feb-27-09 02:36 PM   #55 
                                   - Fortunately, Barack Obama does.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Feb-27-09 02:37 PM   #57 
                                      - His decision to halt production would not be based on any  cboy4   Feb-27-09 02:50 PM   #61 
                                      - He's always said he'll cut programs that don't work.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Feb-27-09 02:52 PM   #63 
                                         - That's ridiculous.  cboy4   Feb-27-09 03:01 PM   #67 
                                      - What makes the F-22 a boondoggle...  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 03:22 PM   #76 
                                      - The F-22 is far from a "boondoggle" by any objective measure.  Raskolnik   Feb-27-09 03:25 PM   #78 
                                         - Unit costs would go down if more were made  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 03:29 PM   #81 
                                            - Point taken, but I don't think we have the money or the need to produce that many.  Raskolnik   Feb-27-09 03:33 PM   #85 
                                            - Somehow we had the money to produce over 700 F-15A/B/C/D models and over 300 F-15Es....  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 03:35 PM   #88 
                                            - And I believe that number does not reflect a realistic need.  Raskolnik   Feb-27-09 03:40 PM   #90 
                                            - I didn't say it was...  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 03:42 PM   #92 
           - not as bad as the B-2.  ChairmanAgnostic   Feb-27-09 03:20 PM   #75 
              - 1B per copy because they only made 20  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 03:26 PM   #80 
                 - very good point. but  ChairmanAgnostic   Feb-27-09 03:33 PM   #84 
                    - The B-2 was already bought when the USSR fell...  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 03:37 PM   #89 
                       - JDAM? and how many have been used in combat?  ChairmanAgnostic   Feb-27-09 03:49 PM   #99 
                          - They are doing things with bombers that no one envisioned years ago  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 03:53 PM   #103 
                             - RIGHT. MY POINT EXACTLY!  ChairmanAgnostic   Feb-27-09 03:59 PM   #106 
                                - One thing you're not talking about, though...  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 04:01 PM   #112 
  - Your ignorance re the F-22 is awesome. n/t  jody   Feb-27-09 01:59 PM   #22 
  - You really have no idea what you're talking about...  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 02:18 PM   #36 
     - A fighter pilot message board?  HiFructosePronSyrup   Feb-27-09 02:34 PM   #53 
     - Actually it's a military pilot message board...  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 03:14 PM   #69 
     - the F-18 has rarely used gunsights.  ChairmanAgnostic   Feb-27-09 03:23 PM   #77 
        - You're not getting my point...  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 03:33 PM   #86 
           - I don't fly, never have. No wait, there was that  ChairmanAgnostic   Feb-27-09 03:45 PM   #95 
              - Ugh....  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 03:58 PM   #105 
                 - just as armored?  ChairmanAgnostic   Feb-27-09 04:00 PM   #109 
                    - Dude, I just got a peek at a USMC V-22 that was out here not long ago...  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 04:03 PM   #113 
                       - OKay. I do not doubt your experience and knowledge.  ChairmanAgnostic   Feb-27-09 04:05 PM   #116 
                          - In that case, neither are the C-130s I fly "armored"  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 04:06 PM   #119 
  - I think that is an unfair assessment. A cost/benefit analysis is part of any military procurement  Raskolnik   Feb-27-09 03:19 PM   #73 
     - and doesn't each F-35 have more moving parts than  ChairmanAgnostic   Feb-27-09 03:31 PM   #82 
     - The F-22 and F-35 are designed for different missions. Given the current mission the President has  jody   Feb-27-09 03:44 PM   #94 
        - I disagree that 381 represents a "bare minimum."  Raskolnik   Feb-27-09 03:51 PM   #101 
        - Given the mission Congress has assigned the F-22, I'll take USAF leader's estimate over Gates et al.  jody   Feb-27-09 04:01 PM   #111 
           - I don't mean to be snarky, but that is a naive outlook. We don't just give each branch a blank check  Raskolnik   Feb-27-09 04:11 PM   #123 
              - Perhaps the "naive outlook" is from the anti-F-22 group. Have a great day. n/t  jody   Feb-27-09 04:35 PM   #135 
                 - Oh, I'm not anti-F-22 at all. I think it the closest thing to an X-Wing that we'll have  Raskolnik   Feb-27-09 04:43 PM   #137 
        - yeah, the f-22 is 20 yrs old design base. The F-35 is but a decade old  ChairmanAgnostic   Feb-27-09 03:52 PM   #102 
           - Have you talked with F-22 pilots or commanders of F-22 units? Are you familiar with the mission  jody   Feb-27-09 03:59 PM   #107 
           - there is no longer a mission available for the F-22's original design.  ChairmanAgnostic   Feb-27-09 04:03 PM   #114 
              - Your statements are void of knowledge and understanding of the USAF mission. Have a good day. n/t  jody   Feb-27-09 04:06 PM   #118 
                 - to make money for contractors? to brainwash cadets in Colorado?  ChairmanAgnostic   Feb-27-09 04:09 PM   #121 
           - Both aircraft can operate in any weather...  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 03:59 PM   #108 
              - any weather, except BAD weather. That's true.  ChairmanAgnostic   Feb-27-09 04:00 PM   #110 
                 - In that case, most airplanes don't operate in BAD weather...  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 04:04 PM   #115 
                    - ahhh. THE ORIGINAL SPECS called for an all weather stealth fighter.  ChairmanAgnostic   Feb-27-09 04:06 PM   #120 
                       - "All weather" doesn't mean "any weather"  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 04:19 PM   #127 
  - There's little call for them in the foreseeable future.  Occam Bandage   Feb-27-09 01:35 PM   #14 
  - It seems there is a consensus.  Greyhound   Feb-27-09 01:38 PM   #15 
  - Also  Beavker   Feb-27-09 01:44 PM   #17 
  - You have to look at the big picture.....including the maintenance  cboy4   Feb-27-09 01:50 PM   #18 
  - Have you read up on the F-22?  Greyhound   Feb-27-09 02:29 PM   #46 
     - Why no Greyhound, I know nothing about the F-22  cboy4   Feb-27-09 02:45 PM   #60 
        - Even using your "unbiased" sources, and assuming all you say is factual,  Greyhound   Feb-27-09 03:34 PM   #87 
  - Sure, a consensus here among non-pilots that don't know what they are talking about  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 02:25 PM   #41 
     - How many F-15/F-16 have ever been defeated in combat? n/t  Greyhound   Feb-27-09 02:34 PM   #51 
        - We lost several in Iraq during Gulf War least one over Yugo, etc  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 03:16 PM   #71 
           - According to this cited article,  Greyhound   Feb-27-09 03:43 PM   #93 
           - That's nice, except you originally stated BOTH the F-15 and F-16...  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 04:05 PM   #117 
           - OK, but according to Lockheed that isn't true either.  Greyhound   Feb-27-09 04:27 PM   #131 
  - Boondoggle  alcibiades_mystery   Feb-27-09 01:54 PM   #20 
  - Best at what? Shooting down non-existent Soviet MiGs?  tinrobot   Feb-27-09 01:58 PM   #21 
  - Non existent?  depakid   Feb-27-09 02:14 PM   #31 
  - Not MiGs, but Sukhois, and Chinese Shenyang J-10s, among others.  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 02:23 PM   #38 
  - we have enough to fight any air force that would attack the united states  madrchsod   Feb-27-09 02:07 PM   #29 
  - Our aging fighter fleet can still defeat the combined air forces of the rest  Greyhound   Feb-27-09 03:46 PM   #97 
     - Maybe it can today...  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 04:22 PM   #128 
        - Oh come on, you and I both know that the future is going to be unmanned  Greyhound   Feb-27-09 05:08 PM   #138 
  - F-15 grounding strains U.S. air defenses  cboy4   Feb-27-09 02:15 PM   #33 
  - Unneccessary  NeedleCast   Feb-27-09 02:17 PM   #35 
  - Yea, why don't we have to engage in dog fights?  cboy4   Feb-27-09 02:24 PM   #40 
  - I don't deny that some of the old aircraft are old  NeedleCast   Feb-27-09 02:35 PM   #54 
     - Well, there are aliens.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Feb-27-09 02:37 PM   #56 
        - And there are also clowns.  cboy4   Feb-27-09 02:51 PM   #62 
        - Right, right. We need to protect America from the clowns.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Feb-27-09 02:53 PM   #64 
           - You, of course, are the clowns I'm referring to, since you  cboy4   Feb-27-09 02:58 PM   #66 
              - Because without the F-22  NeedleCast   Feb-27-09 03:02 PM   #68 
              - Yeah, I got it.  HiFructosePronSyrup   Feb-27-09 03:45 PM   #96 
        - We've got Wil Smith for that shit anyway  NeedleCast   Feb-27-09 02:56 PM   #65 
  - We haven't engaged in an aerial battle since 2003. However...  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 02:30 PM   #47 
     - That's an excellent point bdab1973  cboy4   Feb-27-09 02:34 PM   #52 
     - I can't speak for the British parliment, sorry  NeedleCast   Feb-27-09 02:44 PM   #59 
        - Who said it's gotta be China or Russia?  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 03:19 PM   #72 
           - And the only possible deterrent then is the F-22?  NeedleCast   Feb-27-09 03:56 PM   #104 
              - I would like to address everything in your post, but I'm tired and about to go to sleep...  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 04:16 PM   #126 
                 - So build the far less expensive F-35  NeedleCast   Feb-27-09 04:30 PM   #133 
  - If America fights large wars  Jeneral   Feb-27-09 02:37 PM   #58 
  - There was a pretty good article in Slate this week about this.  Raskolnik   Feb-27-09 03:15 PM   #70 
  - The F-15 fleet has fatigue issues  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 03:20 PM   #74 
     - Correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that maintenance can be performed  Raskolnik   Feb-27-09 03:31 PM   #83 
        - Sure it can...  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 03:41 PM   #91 
           - I think you are low-balling the F-22's costs and exaggerating the costs to upgrade existing fighters  Raskolnik   Feb-27-09 03:47 PM   #98 
              - I fly C-130s and we have similar problems  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 04:25 PM   #129 
  - It certainly is the best fighter, but there is no one to use it against.  old mark   Feb-27-09 04:10 PM   #122 
  - F-22 is overly complicated, and impossible to fly without computer assistance.  trthnd4jstc   Feb-27-09 04:12 PM   #124 
  - The F-16 is nearly impossible to fly without computers...  bdab1973   Feb-27-09 04:27 PM   #130 
  - Increasing the military budget?  margotb822   Feb-27-09 04:14 PM   #125 

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