n2doc
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Fri Feb-27-09 01:26 PM
Response to Original message |
| -F-22 Cuts? |
Beavker |
Feb-27-09 01:24 PM |
#0 |
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I think Obama has consulted with the military. |
tabatha |
Feb-27-09 01:25 PM |
#1 |
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That would be my take |
Beavker |
Feb-27-09 01:27 PM |
#4 |
| -
By the way, I see that some of the over-priced weapons are made by General Dynamics. |
tabatha |
Feb-27-09 01:29 PM |
#5 |
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Secretary Gates cut those crap-flies down to about 170, from an initial plan of 700 |
Kolesar |
Feb-27-09 01:32 PM |
#11 |
| -
A contrarian view: |
n2doc |
Feb-27-09 01:26 PM |
#2 |
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It's a cold war boondoggle. |
HiFructosePronSyrup |
Feb-27-09 01:26 PM |
#3 |
| -
I don't know about boondoggle, but it's certainly a Cold War relic. |
Xithras |
Feb-27-09 02:15 PM |
#34 |
| -
Yep, we should be going with the F-35. |
backscatter712 |
Feb-27-09 02:29 PM |
#45 |
| -
Because we also have the 2nd and 3rd best, they cost a fraction of what the F-22 does, |
Greyhound |
Feb-27-09 01:30 PM |
#6 |
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Especially when our "enemies" are successful with cell-phones, baling wire & C-4, and |
SoCalDem |
Feb-27-09 01:33 PM |
#13 |
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Excellent point, SoCalDem. |
Enthusiast |
Feb-27-09 04:39 PM |
#136 |
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You are wrong... |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 02:02 PM |
#24 |
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Really? Which? n/t |
Greyhound |
Feb-27-09 02:30 PM |
#48 |
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Here are a few that are on par with the F-15... |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 04:35 PM |
#134 |
| -
What would be the price to forge new titanium structural members? |
Tesha |
Feb-27-09 04:29 PM |
#132 |
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Not quite. |
Angleae |
Feb-27-09 03:25 PM |
#79 |
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And I thought the Littoral Combat Ship was history, but, evidently not. Can someonen 'splain? |
Captain Hilts |
Feb-27-09 01:30 PM |
#7 |
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Newer planes usually have a better flight hours to maintenance ratio. So, ... |
Captain Hilts |
Feb-27-09 01:31 PM |
#8 |
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That would be sad if they cut the 22....that is an amazing jet |
cboy4 |
Feb-27-09 01:31 PM |
#9 |
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There are technical issues that prevent the F22 from being used in the battlespaces we are fighting |
Bread and Circus |
Feb-27-09 01:32 PM |
#10 |
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USAF senior leaders including Secretary want more F-22 but Gates opposes. Why should Gates |
jody |
Feb-27-09 01:33 PM |
#12 |
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USAF leaders follow their faith based initiatives w/ prayer. |
ChairmanAgnostic |
Feb-27-09 01:44 PM |
#16 |
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You don't know what you're talking about, do you? |
cboy4 |
Feb-27-09 01:53 PM |
#19 |
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Looks like he does. |
HiFructosePronSyrup |
Feb-27-09 02:02 PM |
#23 |
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let's not forget their minor nav-glitch. |
ChairmanAgnostic |
Feb-27-09 02:03 PM |
#25 |
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Those 80286s were always a problem. |
HiFructosePronSyrup |
Feb-27-09 02:05 PM |
#26 |
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sigh. Glitz vs. reality? glitz always wins. |
ChairmanAgnostic |
Feb-27-09 03:50 PM |
#100 |
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That's an article dating all the way back to 1997 for crissakes. |
cboy4 |
Feb-27-09 02:06 PM |
#27 |
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And the F-22 dates back to 1981. |
HiFructosePronSyrup |
Feb-27-09 02:07 PM |
#28 |
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It's a fantastic machine, |
cboy4 |
Feb-27-09 02:10 PM |
#30 |
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It's a fantastic waste of money. |
HiFructosePronSyrup |
Feb-27-09 02:14 PM |
#32 |
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Read the article below about the F-15's falling apart |
cboy4 |
Feb-27-09 02:18 PM |
#37 |
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Read what I wrote about fantastic stretches of the imagination. |
HiFructosePronSyrup |
Feb-27-09 02:24 PM |
#39 |
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The fighter pilots that know better don't seem to agree with you...read my post below |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 02:26 PM |
#42 |
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The F-15's falling apart are fantastic stretches of imagination? |
cboy4 |
Feb-27-09 02:27 PM |
#43 |
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One colossal waste of money to justify another... |
HiFructosePronSyrup |
Feb-27-09 02:28 PM |
#44 |
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Why do you refuse to acknowledge the cracking and aging |
cboy4 |
Feb-27-09 02:31 PM |
#49 |
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Oh, I acknowledge it. |
HiFructosePronSyrup |
Feb-27-09 02:32 PM |
#50 |
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Yea, no shit. |
cboy4 |
Feb-27-09 02:36 PM |
#55 |
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Fortunately, Barack Obama does. |
HiFructosePronSyrup |
Feb-27-09 02:37 PM |
#57 |
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His decision to halt production would not be based on any |
cboy4 |
Feb-27-09 02:50 PM |
#61 |
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He's always said he'll cut programs that don't work. |
HiFructosePronSyrup |
Feb-27-09 02:52 PM |
#63 |
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That's ridiculous. |
cboy4 |
Feb-27-09 03:01 PM |
#67 |
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What makes the F-22 a boondoggle... |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 03:22 PM |
#76 |
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The F-22 is far from a "boondoggle" by any objective measure. |
Raskolnik |
Feb-27-09 03:25 PM |
#78 |
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Unit costs would go down if more were made |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 03:29 PM |
#81 |
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Point taken, but I don't think we have the money or the need to produce that many. |
Raskolnik |
Feb-27-09 03:33 PM |
#85 |
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Somehow we had the money to produce over 700 F-15A/B/C/D models and over 300 F-15Es.... |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 03:35 PM |
#88 |
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And I believe that number does not reflect a realistic need. |
Raskolnik |
Feb-27-09 03:40 PM |
#90 |
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I didn't say it was... |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 03:42 PM |
#92 |
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not as bad as the B-2. |
ChairmanAgnostic |
Feb-27-09 03:20 PM |
#75 |
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1B per copy because they only made 20 |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 03:26 PM |
#80 |
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very good point. but |
ChairmanAgnostic |
Feb-27-09 03:33 PM |
#84 |
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The B-2 was already bought when the USSR fell... |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 03:37 PM |
#89 |
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JDAM? and how many have been used in combat? |
ChairmanAgnostic |
Feb-27-09 03:49 PM |
#99 |
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They are doing things with bombers that no one envisioned years ago |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 03:53 PM |
#103 |
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RIGHT. MY POINT EXACTLY! |
ChairmanAgnostic |
Feb-27-09 03:59 PM |
#106 |
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One thing you're not talking about, though... |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 04:01 PM |
#112 |
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Your ignorance re the F-22 is awesome. n/t |
jody |
Feb-27-09 01:59 PM |
#22 |
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You really have no idea what you're talking about... |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 02:18 PM |
#36 |
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A fighter pilot message board? |
HiFructosePronSyrup |
Feb-27-09 02:34 PM |
#53 |
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Actually it's a military pilot message board... |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 03:14 PM |
#69 |
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the F-18 has rarely used gunsights. |
ChairmanAgnostic |
Feb-27-09 03:23 PM |
#77 |
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You're not getting my point... |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 03:33 PM |
#86 |
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I don't fly, never have. No wait, there was that |
ChairmanAgnostic |
Feb-27-09 03:45 PM |
#95 |
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Ugh.... |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 03:58 PM |
#105 |
| -
just as armored? |
ChairmanAgnostic |
Feb-27-09 04:00 PM |
#109 |
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Dude, I just got a peek at a USMC V-22 that was out here not long ago... |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 04:03 PM |
#113 |
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OKay. I do not doubt your experience and knowledge. |
ChairmanAgnostic |
Feb-27-09 04:05 PM |
#116 |
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In that case, neither are the C-130s I fly "armored" |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 04:06 PM |
#119 |
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I think that is an unfair assessment. A cost/benefit analysis is part of any military procurement |
Raskolnik |
Feb-27-09 03:19 PM |
#73 |
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and doesn't each F-35 have more moving parts than |
ChairmanAgnostic |
Feb-27-09 03:31 PM |
#82 |
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The F-22 and F-35 are designed for different missions. Given the current mission the President has |
jody |
Feb-27-09 03:44 PM |
#94 |
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I disagree that 381 represents a "bare minimum." |
Raskolnik |
Feb-27-09 03:51 PM |
#101 |
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Given the mission Congress has assigned the F-22, I'll take USAF leader's estimate over Gates et al. |
jody |
Feb-27-09 04:01 PM |
#111 |
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I don't mean to be snarky, but that is a naive outlook. We don't just give each branch a blank check |
Raskolnik |
Feb-27-09 04:11 PM |
#123 |
| -
Perhaps the "naive outlook" is from the anti-F-22 group. Have a great day. n/t |
jody |
Feb-27-09 04:35 PM |
#135 |
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Oh, I'm not anti-F-22 at all. I think it the closest thing to an X-Wing that we'll have |
Raskolnik |
Feb-27-09 04:43 PM |
#137 |
| -
yeah, the f-22 is 20 yrs old design base. The F-35 is but a decade old |
ChairmanAgnostic |
Feb-27-09 03:52 PM |
#102 |
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Have you talked with F-22 pilots or commanders of F-22 units? Are you familiar with the mission |
jody |
Feb-27-09 03:59 PM |
#107 |
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there is no longer a mission available for the F-22's original design. |
ChairmanAgnostic |
Feb-27-09 04:03 PM |
#114 |
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Your statements are void of knowledge and understanding of the USAF mission. Have a good day. n/t |
jody |
Feb-27-09 04:06 PM |
#118 |
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to make money for contractors? to brainwash cadets in Colorado? |
ChairmanAgnostic |
Feb-27-09 04:09 PM |
#121 |
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Both aircraft can operate in any weather... |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 03:59 PM |
#108 |
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any weather, except BAD weather. That's true. |
ChairmanAgnostic |
Feb-27-09 04:00 PM |
#110 |
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In that case, most airplanes don't operate in BAD weather... |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 04:04 PM |
#115 |
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ahhh. THE ORIGINAL SPECS called for an all weather stealth fighter. |
ChairmanAgnostic |
Feb-27-09 04:06 PM |
#120 |
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"All weather" doesn't mean "any weather" |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 04:19 PM |
#127 |
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There's little call for them in the foreseeable future. |
Occam Bandage |
Feb-27-09 01:35 PM |
#14 |
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It seems there is a consensus. |
Greyhound |
Feb-27-09 01:38 PM |
#15 |
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Also |
Beavker |
Feb-27-09 01:44 PM |
#17 |
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You have to look at the big picture.....including the maintenance |
cboy4 |
Feb-27-09 01:50 PM |
#18 |
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Have you read up on the F-22? |
Greyhound |
Feb-27-09 02:29 PM |
#46 |
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Why no Greyhound, I know nothing about the F-22 |
cboy4 |
Feb-27-09 02:45 PM |
#60 |
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Even using your "unbiased" sources, and assuming all you say is factual, |
Greyhound |
Feb-27-09 03:34 PM |
#87 |
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Sure, a consensus here among non-pilots that don't know what they are talking about |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 02:25 PM |
#41 |
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How many F-15/F-16 have ever been defeated in combat? n/t |
Greyhound |
Feb-27-09 02:34 PM |
#51 |
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We lost several in Iraq during Gulf War I...at least one over Yugo, etc |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 03:16 PM |
#71 |
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According to this cited article, |
Greyhound |
Feb-27-09 03:43 PM |
#93 |
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That's nice, except you originally stated BOTH the F-15 and F-16... |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 04:05 PM |
#117 |
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OK, but according to Lockheed that isn't true either. |
Greyhound |
Feb-27-09 04:27 PM |
#131 |
| -
Boondoggle |
alcibiades_mystery |
Feb-27-09 01:54 PM |
#20 |
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Best at what? Shooting down non-existent Soviet MiGs? |
tinrobot |
Feb-27-09 01:58 PM |
#21 |
| -
Non existent? |
depakid |
Feb-27-09 02:14 PM |
#31 |
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Not MiGs, but Sukhois, and Chinese Shenyang J-10s, among others. |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 02:23 PM |
#38 |
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we have enough to fight any air force that would attack the united states |
madrchsod |
Feb-27-09 02:07 PM |
#29 |
| -
Our aging fighter fleet can still defeat the combined air forces of the rest |
Greyhound |
Feb-27-09 03:46 PM |
#97 |
| -
Maybe it can today... |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 04:22 PM |
#128 |
| -
Oh come on, you and I both know that the future is going to be unmanned |
Greyhound |
Feb-27-09 05:08 PM |
#138 |
| -
F-15 grounding strains U.S. air defenses |
cboy4 |
Feb-27-09 02:15 PM |
#33 |
| -
Unneccessary |
NeedleCast |
Feb-27-09 02:17 PM |
#35 |
| -
Yea, why don't we have to engage in dog fights? |
cboy4 |
Feb-27-09 02:24 PM |
#40 |
| -
I don't deny that some of the old aircraft are old |
NeedleCast |
Feb-27-09 02:35 PM |
#54 |
| -
Well, there are aliens. |
HiFructosePronSyrup |
Feb-27-09 02:37 PM |
#56 |
| -
And there are also clowns. |
cboy4 |
Feb-27-09 02:51 PM |
#62 |
| -
Right, right. We need to protect America from the clowns. |
HiFructosePronSyrup |
Feb-27-09 02:53 PM |
#64 |
| -
You, of course, are the clowns I'm referring to, since you |
cboy4 |
Feb-27-09 02:58 PM |
#66 |
| -
Because without the F-22 |
NeedleCast |
Feb-27-09 03:02 PM |
#68 |
| -
Yeah, I got it. |
HiFructosePronSyrup |
Feb-27-09 03:45 PM |
#96 |
| -
We've got Wil Smith for that shit anyway |
NeedleCast |
Feb-27-09 02:56 PM |
#65 |
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We haven't engaged in an aerial battle since 2003. However... |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 02:30 PM |
#47 |
| -
That's an excellent point bdab1973 |
cboy4 |
Feb-27-09 02:34 PM |
#52 |
| -
I can't speak for the British parliment, sorry |
NeedleCast |
Feb-27-09 02:44 PM |
#59 |
| -
Who said it's gotta be China or Russia? |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 03:19 PM |
#72 |
| -
And the only possible deterrent then is the F-22? |
NeedleCast |
Feb-27-09 03:56 PM |
#104 |
| -
I would like to address everything in your post, but I'm tired and about to go to sleep... |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 04:16 PM |
#126 |
| -
So build the far less expensive F-35 |
NeedleCast |
Feb-27-09 04:30 PM |
#133 |
| -
If America fights large wars |
Jeneral |
Feb-27-09 02:37 PM |
#58 |
| -
There was a pretty good article in Slate this week about this. |
Raskolnik |
Feb-27-09 03:15 PM |
#70 |
| -
The F-15 fleet has fatigue issues |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 03:20 PM |
#74 |
| -
Correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that maintenance can be performed |
Raskolnik |
Feb-27-09 03:31 PM |
#83 |
| -
Sure it can... |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 03:41 PM |
#91 |
| -
I think you are low-balling the F-22's costs and exaggerating the costs to upgrade existing fighters |
Raskolnik |
Feb-27-09 03:47 PM |
#98 |
| -
I fly C-130s and we have similar problems |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 04:25 PM |
#129 |
| -
It certainly is the best fighter, but there is no one to use it against. |
old mark |
Feb-27-09 04:10 PM |
#122 |
| -
F-22 is overly complicated, and impossible to fly without computer assistance. |
trthnd4jstc |
Feb-27-09 04:12 PM |
#124 |
| -
The F-16 is nearly impossible to fly without computers... |
bdab1973 |
Feb-27-09 04:27 PM |
#130 |
| -
Increasing the military budget? |
margotb822 |
Feb-27-09 04:14 PM |
#125 |
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