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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
36. I disagree with this:
It seems to me that if you believe in free will from an ethics point of view, then you believe in the soul. That is, if you believe that people should be held morally accountable for their actions, then you believe in the soul. I say that because it seems to me that if all the decisions that a person makes are wholly determined by the physical composition of his or her body (including their brain) plus the sum total of everything the person experiences or is exposed to, I dont see how that person could legitimately be held morally accountable for anything. Im sure that someone will tell me Im wrong about that. But I just dont see how a person can justifiably be held morally accountable for anything if all of his actions are determined wholly by things that are beyond his control.

While I don't necessarily disagree with you overall about the existence of the soul, I think you're missing something here, which is idea of sentience. I do believe that possession of free will is an a priori truth, but I believe its existence is grounded in intelligence. We as humans (and possibly a couple of other species on this planet) have a gift that allows us to contemplate the consequences of our actions before we commit them, to think long-term, to empathize with others, and to know that our own deaths are inevitable. I think that comes from sentience, which is grounded in our physical bodies and minds, not in something immaterial. Is there a connection between the soul and sentience? Maybe. I almost think that's the bigger question: does one require the other? My personal feeling is that it does not.
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  -My Thoughts on the Human Soul Time for change  Jan-15-09 07:25 PM   #0 
  - TFC... you are one incredible thinker and writer..  chill_wind   Jan-15-09 07:35 PM   #1 
  - Thank you chill wind.  Time for change   Jan-15-09 09:29 PM   #8 
     - Coincidence or synchronicity?  Jambalaya   Jan-16-09 01:17 AM   #20 
        - Human Souls are Corpuscles in the Body of Creation  Jambalaya   Jan-16-09 01:30 AM   #21 
        - I didn't read that  Time for change   Jan-16-09 09:33 AM   #47 
           - Golden Scarabs  Jambalaya   Jan-16-09 09:49 PM   #150 
              - Links to Science of Soul and Synchronicity  Jambalaya   Jan-16-09 09:57 PM   #151 
              - Orgin of Soul  shintao   Jan-17-09 07:12 PM   #182 
                 - Egyptian symbol of Rebirth  Jambalaya   Jan-17-09 09:21 PM   #183 
  - Misdirection  Trajan   Jan-15-09 07:36 PM   #2 
  - "There is no evidence whatsoever that 'immaterial' entities such as souls exist"  Time for change   Jan-15-09 08:48 PM   #7 
  - There is be a sentient artificial intelligence created within 20 years.  Odin2005   Jan-15-09 11:44 PM   #13 
  - Point by point ...  Trajan   Jan-16-09 02:48 AM   #23 
  - More points  Time for change   Jan-16-09 06:58 AM   #27 
     - Your unfounded assumptions based on cultural upbrining are showing  Odin2005   Jan-16-09 09:14 AM   #38 
     - Oh, right  Time for change   Jan-16-09 09:32 AM   #46 
        - You have convinced yourself ....  Trajan   Jan-16-09 12:51 PM   #63 
        - Look who's talking  Time for change   Jan-16-09 02:11 PM   #73 
           - You have responded with illogical assertions ....  Trajan   Jan-16-09 03:21 PM   #95 
              - This post of yours is nothing but a bunch of name calling  Time for change   Jan-16-09 03:27 PM   #99 
                 - Name calling ? .... Point out ANY name calling in that post .....  Trajan   Jan-16-09 04:00 PM   #117 
                    - those aren't refutations.  Time for change   Jan-16-09 05:59 PM   #133 
        - Emotions can be studied objectively via PET and MRI as well as via brain injuries.  Odin2005   Jan-16-09 04:17 PM   #122 
     - Basically, because you're asserting the existence of the soul  anigbrowl   Jan-16-09 04:16 PM   #120 
        - I said I BELIEVE in the existence of the soul, and I explained why  Time for change   Jan-16-09 06:36 PM   #139 
           - For a scientist, you seem very uncomfortable with logical propositions  anigbrowl   Jan-17-09 12:46 AM   #158 
              - I don't have proof  Time for change   Jan-17-09 12:44 PM   #169 
  - this subject really interests me and it has nothing to do with  roguevalley   Jan-16-09 02:59 PM   #89 
  - Yes. That's exactly the way I feel  Time for change   Jan-16-09 03:29 PM   #103 
  - One does not need to prove a negative proposition  anigbrowl   Jan-16-09 03:56 PM   #116 
  - Philosophy of Soul and Immortality  Jambalaya   Jan-17-09 11:33 AM   #167 
     - Philosophy of Soul and Immortality-[link]  Jambalaya   Jan-17-09 11:41 AM   #168 
  - "no evidence whatsoever that 'immaterial' entities such as souls exist" I would disagree  The Straight Story   Jan-16-09 12:37 AM   #19 
     - I can't help noticing that you didn't present any evidence to justify your disagreement  anigbrowl   Jan-16-09 04:19 PM   #123 
  - ? thoughts and feelings are not non-material. nt  patrice   Jan-15-09 07:56 PM   #3 
  - What material do you think they're made of?  Time for change   Jan-15-09 09:46 PM   #9 
     - thoughts and emotions = various neruon firing patterns. n/t  Odin2005   Jan-15-09 11:46 PM   #14 
        - Emotions are NOT neurons  Time for change   Jan-16-09 06:32 AM   #26 
        - I said emotions and thoughts are the electro-chemical activity OF the neurons.  Odin2005   Jan-16-09 08:45 AM   #32 
        - No, that is not what you said  Time for change   Jan-16-09 09:37 AM   #48 
        - To be fair  ImOnlySleeping   Jan-16-09 01:20 PM   #65 
        - I don't understand what you're saying I misquoted.  Time for change   Jan-16-09 01:24 PM   #66 
           - this way  ImOnlySleeping   Jan-16-09 01:48 PM   #71 
           - My question was  Time for change   Jan-16-09 02:22 PM   #75 
              - Would you say that the electical discharge, the neurotransmitters that cross the...  varkam   Jan-16-09 02:32 PM   #79 
              - They are material  Time for change   Jan-16-09 02:44 PM   #83 
                 - And I believe the crux of this whole, big, bad discussion is...  varkam   Jan-16-09 02:54 PM   #86 
                 - That's right -- My discussion does not resolve lots of basic questions  Time for change   Jan-16-09 03:25 PM   #97 
                    - Well...  varkam   Jan-16-09 03:35 PM   #107 
                    - "Why would it require such a leap of faith for you to accept that emotions are due to physical  Time for change   Jan-16-09 06:25 PM   #137 
                    - It' like saying that 1 isn't material  ImOnlySleeping   Jan-16-09 03:35 PM   #108 
                       - Numbers and colors are adjectives. Feelings are nouns  Time for change   Jan-16-09 03:47 PM   #114 
                       - My apologies  ImOnlySleeping   Jan-16-09 04:14 PM   #119 
                          - I don't believe that the soul is physical  Time for change   Jan-16-09 06:02 PM   #135 
                       - Ah, but numbers *do* exist...  varkam   Jan-16-09 04:22 PM   #125 
                          - Don't worry  ImOnlySleeping   Jan-16-09 05:51 PM   #132 
                 - I think they are emotions.  anigbrowl   Jan-16-09 04:21 PM   #124 
              - I think what he means  ImOnlySleeping   Jan-16-09 02:54 PM   #87 
           - He did not say that thoughts and neurons are the same thing.  Marr   Jan-16-09 03:05 PM   #91 
              - Right -- The pattern emitted by the light bulb signifies the apple  Time for change   Jan-16-09 03:20 PM   #94 
                 - You keep asserting this, but make no attempt at demonstrating it  anigbrowl   Jan-16-09 04:25 PM   #127 
                    - Why do I think that the firing of neurons is not the same thing as my thoughts and feelings?  Time for change   Jan-16-09 06:42 PM   #140 
                       - Oh really  anigbrowl   Jan-17-09 01:20 AM   #160 
                          - To use your example  Time for change   Jan-17-09 12:58 PM   #171 
                             - Let me ask you this. If our thoughts and emotions exist independently  Marr   Jan-18-09 12:49 AM   #186 
                             - I have acknowledged numerous times on this thread and in my OP  Time for change   Jan-18-09 02:45 PM   #188 
                                - I understand what you were saying perfectly fine. The problem is that  Marr   Jan-18-09 02:54 PM   #190 
                                   - You say that memories are completely undone by removing certain tissue, but you don't know that.  Time for change   Jan-18-09 06:13 PM   #193 
                             - I'm not seing your reasoning here  anigbrowl   Jan-18-09 02:50 PM   #189 
                                - I'm not saying that they're separate. There is obviously a strong relationship between them  Time for change   Jan-18-09 05:46 PM   #192 
                                   - I don't see any reason NOT to think they're the same thing  anigbrowl   Jan-18-09 11:51 PM   #194 
                                      - I don't understand your point  Time for change   Jan-19-09 12:03 AM   #195 
                                         - No...what I think is that emotions = the pattern of neural firings  anigbrowl   Jan-19-09 02:58 PM   #196 
                                         - I'm familiar with that theory  Time for change   Jan-19-09 04:11 PM   #197 
        - His reply did not state that emotions are neurons.  varkam   Jan-16-09 02:30 PM   #78 
           - See my post # 75  Time for change   Jan-16-09 02:45 PM   #84 
        - Or from another view: electro-chem activity is interpreted by the experiencer as thought/emotion  gtar100   Jan-17-09 01:34 PM   #176 
        - Maybe I wasn't making myself clear.  Odin2005   Jan-16-09 04:24 PM   #126 
        - ALL BOW BEFORE THE MARVEL OF WESTERN SCIENCE!  teknomanzer   Jan-16-09 10:54 PM   #156 
           - What about Eastern science?  Bill McBlueState   Jan-17-09 02:33 AM   #162 
           - I will definitely break that down for you.  teknomanzer   Jan-17-09 12:46 PM   #170 
           - Science of the soul  Jambalaya   Jan-17-09 11:11 AM   #166 
           - I don't see why your entire mental state can't be explained by the firing of neurons.  Marr   Jan-18-09 12:57 AM   #187 
  - I have a soul...and it is the essence of me...  stillcool47   Jan-15-09 07:58 PM   #4 
  - Very well said  Time for change   Jan-16-09 09:38 AM   #49 
  - I think you have it backwards ...  Trajan   Jan-16-09 01:33 PM   #69 
     - I disagree..  stillcool47   Jan-16-09 02:17 PM   #74 
        - So ...  Trajan   Jan-16-09 04:02 PM   #118 
           - what is your intent, by asking..  stillcool47   Jan-16-09 06:01 PM   #134 
              - That would be an implication of your stated belief ....  Trajan   Jan-16-09 08:01 PM   #144 
                 - So I'm dishonest and lacking integrity..  stillcool47   Jan-16-09 08:27 PM   #145 
                    - If you agree to concepts that have no rational basis ....  Trajan   Jan-16-09 09:38 PM   #148 
                       - is it better for you?  stillcool47   Jan-16-09 09:44 PM   #149 
  - I think a lot of what is thought of as "non-material" is really emergent properties of highly comple  patrice   Jan-15-09 08:13 PM   #5 
  - Soul definately exists.  deaniac21   Jan-15-09 08:15 PM   #6 
  - Best post in this thread...  SidDithers   Jan-16-09 09:21 AM   #42 
  - great post.  Mari333   Jan-15-09 09:48 PM   #10 
  - The Soul  Notwane   Jan-15-09 11:32 PM   #11 
  - I love that idea  Time for change   Jan-16-09 02:50 PM   #85 
  - Thank you -- I have read about a lot about those near death experiences.  Time for change   Jan-16-09 01:27 PM   #67 
  - I'm a materialist, so as far as I'm concerned the notion of a soul is BS.  Odin2005   Jan-15-09 11:38 PM   #12 
  - Soul Again  Notwane   Jan-16-09 12:04 AM   #15 
  - einstein blew newtonian materialism out of the water  Mari333   Jan-16-09 09:11 AM   #37 
  - Believing in free will is not to ignore other factors in determning human behavior  Time for change   Jan-16-09 12:18 AM   #16 
  - The notion of some "un-moved mover" in the brain is inherently fishy to me.  Odin2005   Jan-16-09 12:35 AM   #18 
     - Ah ... Hofstadter ....  Trajan   Jan-17-09 04:56 AM   #164 
  - Brainless=Mindless?  Jambalaya   Jan-16-09 09:06 AM   #35 
     - That's a very interesting discussion -- I'd never heard of that  Time for change   Jan-16-09 03:31 PM   # 
  - K&R, I agree that the Religious Right has been mislead...  AntiFascist   Jan-16-09 12:24 AM   #17 
  - No doubt about that.  Time for change   Jan-16-09 06:28 PM   #138 
  - I believe I have soul or spirit . . . and I'm an atheist/agnostic . . .  defendandprotect   Jan-16-09 02:16 AM   #22 
  - Just a short time ago in our history we discovered the atom,  pokercat999   Jan-16-09 05:11 AM   #24 
  - I could turn that statement around  Time for change   Jan-16-09 08:20 AM   #29 
     - Ever heard of Occam's Razor?  Odin2005   Jan-16-09 08:51 AM   #33 
     - Sad that you think you know so much  Time for change   Jan-16-09 12:19 PM   #60 
        - My earlier point was you assume thoughts and feelings  pokercat999   Jan-16-09 01:54 PM   #72 
        - Well, I'm not saying that's not possible  Time for change   Jan-16-09 02:29 PM   #77 
           - You state that like it was FACT, it's a theory only. nt  pokercat999   Jan-16-09 03:07 PM   #93 
           - Huh??  Time for change   Jan-16-09 03:34 PM   #106 
              - To quote:  pokercat999   Jan-17-09 05:49 AM   #165 
           - discovery had a show on dimensions and I believe it was Micchio  roguevalley   Jan-16-09 03:31 PM   #105 
           - I wish I had seen that  Time for change   Jan-16-09 03:36 PM   #109 
              - it repeats from time to time on discovery science channel  roguevalley   Jan-17-09 03:25 PM   #178 
           - Actually,humans have known about them  conscious evolution   Jan-18-09 12:31 AM   #185 
        - Depends on what you mean by "exist"  Odin2005   Jan-16-09 04:31 PM   #128 
        - ':-o  anigbrowl   Jan-16-09 04:35 PM   #129 
     - Actions, plans are the result of thought ---  defendandprotect   Jan-17-09 06:37 PM   #181 
  - What if it turns out to be true that the universe is a hologram?  Waiting For Everyman   Jan-16-09 06:02 AM   #25 
  - Before the last 8 years, I might have believed in the concept of a soul.  mmonk   Jan-16-09 07:09 AM   #28 
  - So, Bush/Cheney have done that to you?  Time for change   Jan-16-09 03:50 PM   #115 
     - I think it was the popularity bush had among religious people and  mmonk   Jan-16-09 06:11 PM   #136 
        - The Religious Right has hijacked Christianity for their own purposes  Time for change   Jan-16-09 07:05 PM   #141 
        - True. And it's when they make headway as they have now  mmonk   Jan-16-09 10:11 PM   #153 
           - Yeah, I can see that  Time for change   Jan-17-09 01:12 PM   #172 
        - Hypocrites -r-us  Jambalaya   Jan-16-09 09:33 PM   #147 
           - Good one.  mmonk   Jan-16-09 10:03 PM   #152 
  - Souls and responsibility  bloom   Jan-16-09 08:34 AM   #30 
  - Exactly.  Odin2005   Jan-16-09 08:55 AM   #34 
  - I agree with you for the most part  Time for change   Jan-16-09 09:19 AM   #39 
  - My thoughts on the Human Soul...  SidDithers   Jan-16-09 08:41 AM   #31 
  - There is no evidence that there isn't one either  Time for change   Jan-16-09 09:19 AM   #40 
     - How Can There Be Evidence For "Doesn't Exist"?  ProfessorGAC   Jan-16-09 09:20 AM   #41 
        - Seems that way to me...  SidDithers   Jan-16-09 09:22 AM   #43 
        - No more impossible than what you're asking  Time for change   Jan-16-09 09:46 AM   #50 
           - I Asked Nothing!  ProfessorGAC   Jan-16-09 10:01 AM   #52 
              - Ok, let me put it another way then  Time for change   Jan-16-09 01:16 PM   #64 
  - I disagree with this:  Terran   Jan-16-09 09:08 AM   #36 
  - Yes, but we have no control over the content of our body  Time for change   Jan-16-09 09:24 AM   #44 
     - Well, IMO that's what's so special about sentience.  Terran   Jan-16-09 09:47 AM   #51 
        - "How could our physical bodies contain something that allows our behavior to transcend the physical?  Time for change   Jan-16-09 10:49 AM   #53 
           - It need not be a false proposition, though.  Terran   Jan-16-09 11:35 AM   #56 
           - I think we agree on a lot  Time for change   Jan-16-09 12:06 PM   #59 
           - Transcending the physical?  anigbrowl   Jan-16-09 04:39 PM   #130 
  - Thank you for this post TFC.  glitch   Jan-16-09 09:32 AM   #45 
  - Thank you glitch  Time for change   Jan-16-09 10:56 AM   #54 
     - Well, if you were doing research it would be very interesting to see the results.  glitch   Jan-16-09 11:56 AM   #57 
     - That's annoying to me too.  Terran   Jan-16-09 01:33 PM   #68 
     - Who, specifically, in this thread, has stated that they "know the truth"?  varkam   Jan-16-09 02:34 PM   #80 
        - Here's one:  Time for change   Jan-16-09 02:58 PM   # 
           - Where did they say that they "know the truth"? eom  varkam   Jan-16-09 03:01 PM   #90 
              - When you refer to a person's idea who disagrees with you as "nonsense"  Time for change   Jan-16-09 03:39 PM   #111 
                 - I think that it reflects a degree of certitude  varkam   Jan-16-09 03:42 PM   #112 
  - I've often wondered if creation consists of one cosmic soul . . .  OneBlueSky   Jan-16-09 11:07 AM   #55 
  - That's pretty close to the explanation I've settled on. For now :) nt  glitch   Jan-16-09 12:00 PM   #58 
  - We are spiritual beings, having a physical experience n/t  mojowork_n   Jan-16-09 12:22 PM   #61 
  - Fun read  ismnotwasm   Jan-16-09 12:46 PM   #62 
  - I'm pretty much an agnostic too  Time for change   Jan-16-09 03:42 PM   #113 
     - It's a good word  ismnotwasm   Jan-16-09 08:57 PM   #146 
  - Where it falls apart  ImOnlySleeping   Jan-16-09 01:39 PM   #70 
  - My bottom line point is that if we have free will, that implies a soul  Time for change   Jan-16-09 02:42 PM   #81 
     - I would enjoy reading the article  ImOnlySleeping   Jan-16-09 03:24 PM   #96 
     - Aside  ImOnlySleeping   Jan-16-09 03:25 PM   #98 
     - Mind of God  Jambalaya   Jan-16-09 10:48 PM   #155 
     - I think you're reacting to Reductionism...  Junkdrawer   Jan-16-09 03:28 PM   #101 
     - Now just a minute thar  anigbrowl   Jan-16-09 04:53 PM   #131 
        - If humans don't have free will, that means that we're all just robots  Time for change   Jan-16-09 07:11 PM   #142 
           - I don't find that limiting. Perhaps it's because your conceptions of robots are simple  anigbrowl   Jan-17-09 12:51 AM   #159 
              - You're right  Time for change   Jan-17-09 01:27 PM   #175 
                 - Hmmm  anigbrowl   Jan-18-09 03:06 PM   #191 
  - I believe in the soul and I think it's pretty obvious that the Christianity got corrupted  Joanne98   Jan-16-09 02:28 PM   #76 
  - when I had cataract surgery, I was put under general anaesthesia  ima_sinnic   Jan-16-09 02:43 PM   #82 
  - Careful. Sounds to me you're revisiting the old Cartesian Mind/Body dilema...  Junkdrawer   Jan-16-09 02:58 PM   #88 
  - Is information scientific? Is it material?  IMModerate   Jan-16-09 03:07 PM   #92 
  - when the body dies, so does the soul.  QuestionAll   Jan-16-09 03:28 PM   #100 
  - Which is why the pursuit of self is a dead end. n/t  Junkdrawer   Jan-16-09 03:30 PM   #104 
  - I believe in the soul and I do not believe in free will. I believe that given a persons genetic  IsItJustMe   Jan-16-09 03:28 PM   #102 
  - kick for a read  mdmc   Jan-16-09 03:36 PM   #110 
  - You would find affinity with Pierre Teilhard deChardin!  DailyGrind51   Jan-16-09 04:17 PM   #121 
  - This sounds like arguments I used to have on another forum  sleebarker   Jan-16-09 07:54 PM   #143 
  - Exactly  Time for change   Jan-16-09 10:34 PM   #154 
  - I'm happier with the material world.  aikoaiko   Jan-16-09 11:00 PM   #157 
  - Read My Stroke of Insight  Perragrande   Jan-17-09 01:36 AM   #161 
  - Emergent properties are never predictable from their material components  eridani   Jan-17-09 03:41 AM   #163 
  - Where's the university? I don't see anything but a bunch of bricks!!!!  BlooInBloo   Jan-17-09 01:17 PM   #174 
     - It's an emergent property. Not just facilities, but people and their histories, etc.  eridani   Jan-17-09 10:35 PM   #184 
  - (facepalm)  BlooInBloo   Jan-17-09 01:16 PM   #173 
  - I looked up the wikipedia entry on free will  sleebarker   Jan-17-09 02:35 PM   #177 
  - The first 2 books I read on Quantum mechanics: The tao of physics and the body quantum convinced me  PerfectSage   Jan-17-09 05:53 PM   #179 
  - I believe less in free will these days  Confusious   Jan-17-09 06:09 PM   #180 

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