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Reply #85: that is "the economy?" [View All]

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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #79
85. that is "the economy?"
You think that stock ownership (hardly "public ownership" in any world other than Bush's "ownership society") credit and insurance are "the economy?"

The economy is the working people producing things of real value. The measurement of "how well the economy is doing" is how well the wroking people are doing. That is the economy for 90% of the people. The economy you are talking about is the economy of the few.

You would disagree with Lincoln, then. Here is an excerpt from his first annual message to Congress:

It is not needed nor fitting here that a general argument should be made in favor of popular institutions, but there is one point, with its connections, not so hackneyed as most others, to which I ask a brief attention. It is the effort to place capital on an equal footing with, if not above, labor in the structure of government. It is assumed that labor is available only in connection with capital; that nobody labors unless somebody else, owning capital, somehow by the use of it induces him to labor. This assumed, it is next considered whether it is best that capital shall hire laborers, and thus induce them to work by their own consent, or buy them and drive them to it without their consent. Having proceeded so far, it is naturally concluded that all laborers are either hired laborers or what we call slaves. And further, it is assumed that whoever is once a hired laborer is fixed in that condition for life.

Now there is no such relation between capital and labor as assumed, nor is there any such thing as a free man being fixed for life in the condition of a hired laborer. Both these assumptions are false, and all inferences from them are groundless.

Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. Capital has its rights, which are as worthy of protection as any other rights. Nor is it denied that there is, and probably always will be, a relation between labor and capital producing mutual benefits. The error is in assuming that the whole labor of community exists within that relation. A few men own capital, and that few avoid labor themselves, and with their capital hire or buy another few to labor for them. A large majority belong to neither class--neither work for others nor have others working for them. In most of the Southern States a majority of the whole people of all colors are neither slaves nor masters, while in the Northern a large majority are neither hirers nor hired. Men, with their families--wives, sons, and daughters--work for themselves on their farms, in their houses, and in their shops, taking the whole product to themselves, and asking no favors of capital on the one hand nor of hired laborers or slaves on the other. It is not forgotten that a considerable number of persons mingle their own labor with capital; that is, they labor with their own hands and also buy or hire others to labor for them; but this is only a mixed and not a distinct class. No principle stated is disturbed by the existence of this mixed class.

Again, as has already been said, there is not of necessity any such thing as the free hired laborer being fixed to that condition for life. Many independent men everywhere in these States a few years back in their lives were hired laborers. The prudent, penniless beginner in the world labors for wages awhile, saves a surplus with which to buy tools or land for himself, then labors on his own account another while, and at length hires another new beginner to help him. This is the just and generous and prosperous system which opens the way to all, gives hope to all, and consequent energy and progress and improvement of condition to all. No men living are more worthy to be trusted than those who toil up from poverty; none less inclined to take or touch aught which they have not honestly earned. Let them beware of surrendering a political power which they already possess, and which if surrendered will surely be used to close the door of advancement against such as they and to fix new disabilities and burdens upon them till all of liberty shall be lost.
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  -Remind Me Again- Why in the Fuck Do We Need Wall St.? Orwellian_Ghost  Nov-26-08 11:57 PM   #0 
  - 'Cause some people can't afford Vegas or Atlantic City?  PassingFair   Nov-26-08 11:59 PM   #1 
  - Europeans rediscover Marx.  blindpig   Nov-28-08 07:59 AM   #67 
  - It's like day care for sociopaths. n/t  ColbertWatcher   Nov-27-08 12:01 AM   #2 
  - I think you're on to something, there.  sofa king   Nov-28-08 04:43 AM   #66 
  - It is a Racket as Far as I can See  fascisthunter   Nov-27-08 12:02 AM   #3 
  - It protects New Amsterdam from British Invasion  rpannier   Nov-27-08 12:02 AM   #4 
  - Hahaha!  BB1   Nov-27-08 03:56 PM   #30 
  - Definitely a racket  leftstreet   Nov-27-08 12:03 AM   #5 
  - because they TELL us so  amdezurik   Nov-27-08 12:11 AM   #6 
  - To enable the rich to exploit the middle class & poor without liability.  CrispyQGirl   Nov-27-08 12:14 AM   #7 
  - ...  Truth2Tell   Nov-27-08 12:32 AM   #8 
  - Now THAT cartoon...  Tandalayo_Scheisskopf   Nov-27-08 01:24 AM   #9 
  - LOL, that is hilarious!!! (because it's sadly, true)  Odin2005   Nov-27-08 09:52 PM   #53 
  - It's the tricke up economy  KT2000   Nov-27-08 01:24 AM   #10 
  - More of a flood, but you got it. n/t  greyhound1966   Nov-27-08 11:32 AM   #27 
  - Yes, absolutely...  JackRiddler   Nov-27-08 04:13 PM   #31 
  - So that the rich can get richer of course....  Azimov   Nov-27-08 03:23 AM   #11 
  - Yup.  tama   Nov-27-08 03:31 AM   #12 
  - KnR  undergroundpanther   Nov-27-08 03:49 AM   #13 
  - so we can have yuppies!!!  historian   Nov-27-08 04:40 AM   #14 
  - Wall St is nothing more than a scam-a pyramid scheme for the wealthy.  TheGoldenRule   Nov-27-08 04:59 AM   #15 
  - kr  Progs Rock   Nov-27-08 05:34 AM   #16 
  - Vegas on the Hudson  formercia   Nov-27-08 07:44 AM   #17 
  - What aspect of "Wall Street" are you refering to?  ThomWV   Nov-27-08 07:50 AM   #18 
  - All of it  Orwellian_Ghost   Nov-27-08 11:07 AM   #24 
  - doesn't work that way  Two Americas   Nov-27-08 08:23 PM   #48 
  - here is something that sheds light on this...  Two Americas   Nov-27-08 08:32 PM   #49 
  - and this...  Two Americas   Nov-27-08 08:35 PM   #50 
  - The FDR quote in my sig line comes from that famous DNC speech.  Odin2005   Nov-27-08 10:02 PM   #54 
  - do you have other possessions which you supposedly "own" but have  Hannah Bell   Nov-28-08 12:25 AM   #62 
  - I'm not sure what you're saying: get rid of private investment or get rid of private ownership?  onenote   Nov-27-08 07:53 AM   #19 
  - that is not the question  Two Americas   Nov-27-08 11:53 PM   #58 
  - Seriously, in the 21st century, we should be able to deliver capital more efficiently  MindMatter   Nov-27-08 09:28 AM   #20 
  - it's the biggest pyramid scheme in the history of the world  jeffrey_X   Nov-27-08 09:38 AM   #21 
  - eat the rich!  mopinko   Nov-27-08 10:18 AM   #22 
  - No, but make them earn their money just like anybody else  MindMatter   Nov-27-08 03:49 PM   #29 
     - people who own stock are not the crooks.  mopinko   Nov-27-08 05:01 PM   #36 
        - That is not my point. I never said that.  MindMatter   Nov-27-08 07:14 PM   #41 
  - Aside from all the astute and vary valid comparisons to Vegas and a craps game...  TankLV   Nov-27-08 10:36 AM   #23 
  - no, it's not an important part of raising capital. 95% (roughly) is just  Hannah Bell   Nov-28-08 12:33 AM   #63 
     - are you an expert? are you 100% sure?  TankLV   Nov-28-08 12:25 PM   #82 
        - You're not raising new capital for the corp when you buy a share of stock,  Hannah Bell   Nov-28-08 11:11 PM   #90 
  - Fall St.  threadkillaz   Nov-27-08 11:11 AM   #25 
  - To connect Broadway to the FDR.  greyhound1966   Nov-27-08 11:13 AM   #26 
  - Precisely.  cliffordu   Nov-28-08 08:26 AM   #72 
     - Thank you for the reply, it is nice to know that people read the replies. n/t  greyhound1966   Nov-28-08 02:13 PM   #88 
        - I try to, but there can be a lot of noise-to-signal ratio here......  cliffordu   Nov-28-08 07:48 PM   #89 
  - To facilitate the capital needs of business.  wartrace   Nov-27-08 12:35 PM   #28 
  - And where does this "capital" come from ultimately?  JackRiddler   Nov-27-08 04:16 PM   #32 
  - Capital is nothing without labor.  Selatius   Nov-27-08 04:23 PM   #34 
  - That quote by Lincoln......  kentuck   Nov-27-08 07:37 PM   #43 
  - have researched that extensively  Two Americas   Nov-27-08 08:16 PM   #45 
  - Back in Lincoln's time the GOP was the party of the era's radical left.  Odin2005   Nov-27-08 10:15 PM   #56 
     - and it could happen again  Two Americas   Nov-28-08 10:50 AM   #76 
        - A possibillity is that socially-conservative economic populists could start such a realignment.  Odin2005   Nov-28-08 11:44 AM   #78 
           - I was surprised  Two Americas   Nov-28-08 12:33 PM   #84 
  - Gee, that Lincoln fellow sure sounds like a socialist! :-)  Odin2005   Nov-27-08 10:11 PM   #55 
  - What has happened over the past few weeks is not capital.  wartrace   Nov-27-08 04:59 PM   #35 
  - This isn't just Bush  bamalib   Nov-27-08 05:09 PM   #37 
  - Bush is in office, he has veto power.  wartrace   Nov-27-08 06:39 PM   #39 
     - Of course it is his watch  bamalib   Nov-28-08 12:07 PM   #81 
  - of course it is  Two Americas   Nov-27-08 08:19 PM   #47 
  - Don't look now but  Le Taz Hot   Nov-28-08 08:28 AM   #74 
     - of course  Two Americas   Nov-29-08 12:18 AM   #91 
  - Exactly. Literally replace them with computers.  MindMatter   Nov-27-08 07:18 PM   #42 
  - How Constitutional of you. n/t  greyhound1966   Nov-28-08 03:42 AM   #65 
  - What about a big lemonade stand?  Orwellian_Ghost   Nov-27-08 10:48 PM   #57 
  - No, To Facilitate Investment Needs for People Who Don't Want To Have to Labor For a Living  Crisco   Nov-28-08 08:22 AM   #71 
  - I agree with you.  Jack Sprat   Nov-27-08 04:16 PM   #33 
  - On the positive side  tama   Nov-27-08 05:14 PM   #38 
  - To help businesses raise capital to produce goods and services  gravity   Nov-27-08 06:45 PM   #40 
  - Go take an econ 101 class and then come back  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-27-08 07:39 PM   #44 
  - Geez  Orwellian_Ghost   Nov-27-08 08:37 PM   #51 
     - Then I am ashamed of whatever college you attended,  Occam Bandage   Nov-28-08 11:46 AM   #80 
  - to keep the high priced escorts from unemployment? (sarcasm) n/t  sohndrsmith   Nov-27-08 08:17 PM   #46 
  - Private capital investment, IMO, has become a relic of back when governments didn't...  Odin2005   Nov-27-08 09:26 PM   #52 
  - a source of wonder and amazement  Two Americas   Nov-28-08 12:14 AM   #59 
  - No, I find it extremely odd too, in the way no doubt that news coverage in N. Korea is odd.  bemildred   Nov-28-08 12:19 AM   #60 
  - thanks bemildred  Two Americas   Nov-28-08 12:22 AM   #61 
     - Well, there are taboos.  bemildred   Nov-28-08 12:34 AM   #64 
  - there is no opposition party in this country  datasuspect   Nov-28-08 08:12 AM   #68 
  - Engels about the Market:  blindpig   Nov-28-08 08:14 AM   #69 
  - I have no use for it.  Xap   Nov-28-08 08:20 AM   #70 
  - So Masters of the Universe Have Something to Do On Weekdays  Crisco   Nov-28-08 08:28 AM   #73 
  - Marx was right!  blindpig   Nov-28-08 08:55 AM   #75 
  - a succinct sentiment..  blindpig   Nov-28-08 11:05 AM   #77 
  - Yes. We should abolish the concepts of public ownership, credit, and insurance.  Occam Bandage   Nov-28-08 11:45 AM   #79 
  - that is "the economy?"  Two Americas   Nov-28-08 12:46 PM   #85 
     - And the economy of main street cannot and does not exist  Occam Bandage   Nov-28-08 01:04 PM   #86 
        - that is funny  Two Americas   Nov-28-08 01:30 PM   #87 
  - they are here to provide a conduit for our wealth to pass  leftofthedial   Nov-28-08 12:29 PM   #83 
  - no, no, no  Two Americas   Nov-29-08 12:33 AM   #92 
  - I always wonder where the women & children are in those soup line pix.  djmaddox1   Nov-29-08 11:25 AM   #93 
  - You need Wal-street to get to Wal-mart.  L0oniX   Nov-29-08 11:35 AM   #94 

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