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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 08:13 PM
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CIVIL UNION for all... gay straight, black, white, you get the picture
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like MANY OTHER WESTERN DEMOCRACIES currently do

Take this away from any kind of religious leader

No, not a license to marry, but a CIVIL UNION for all... granted by the STATE and necessary to pursue that religious necessary if that is your taste?

That will kill this for the fundies... their most critical meme (but that means I have to marry the gay in my church) will evaporate... that POWER will go away as well as the discussion of WHAT IS MARRIAGE which is happening in a civil arena... where religion does NOT belong. Yes this also means that something like this happens... my marriage certificate needs to read civil union certificate. It does not diminish this in one bit.

I know people don't want to get this, but that ceremony, performed by the state, falls under civil law, so calling it a cviil union is not a misnomer and let the churches hold the lilly white wedding they want to do, all the way to sunday... but only AFTER the State has performed its function.


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  -CIVIL UNION for all... gay straight, black, white, you get the picture nadinbrzezinski  Nov-06-08 08:13 PM   #0 
  - That is what all marriages are by definition anyway  shadowknows69   Nov-06-08 08:16 PM   #1 
  - Small difference from other nations  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 08:18 PM   #4 
     - But, clergy can ONLY perform weddings  votesomemore   Nov-06-08 09:15 PM   #22 
        - And I want to take that authority away from them  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 09:45 PM   #41 
           - I'm not in California ...  votesomemore   Nov-06-08 10:52 PM   #58 
           - It was a red herring, but it worked because of how things are done  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 11:11 PM   #69 
              - I've been posting  votesomemore   Nov-06-08 11:21 PM   #74 
                 - That is what the domestic rights legislation tried to do in california  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 11:26 PM   #77 
           - You do not take power away from them...  Luminous Animal   Nov-07-08 12:24 AM   #98 
              - Do you live in Cali? Did you watch the adds?  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-07-08 11:58 AM   #111 
  - kind of my take too. .  annabanana   Nov-06-08 08:16 PM   #2 
  - I'm with ya and have been for a while  REP   Nov-06-08 08:17 PM   #3 
  - Thanks and that is what the fist bump means? COOL  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 08:19 PM   #6 
  - Agreed. Either marriage for everybody or civil unions for everybody.....  marmar   Nov-06-08 08:19 PM   #5 
  - Legally, marriages exist throughout the world  Ms. Toad   Nov-06-08 08:33 PM   #7 
  - You need to copy and paste this in about a dozen threads  gollygee   Nov-06-08 08:37 PM   #8 
  - I know.  Ms. Toad   Nov-06-08 10:18 PM   #49 
  - You are not appeasing them, in fact they will fight harder to keep it  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 09:07 PM   #13 
     - Clergy is not the issue,  Ms. Toad   Nov-06-08 10:15 PM   #48 
     - Take my word, the moment you start the process to remove clergy  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 10:33 PM   #51 
        - This has not been done in other places  Ms. Toad   Nov-06-08 11:09 PM   #68 
           - I understand but at the very least we need to completely remove the  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 11:16 PM   #70 
              - I don't care if you remove the clergy from the legal process.  Ms. Toad   Nov-07-08 08:48 AM   #103 
                 - This should be a state matter from start to finish  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-07-08 11:52 AM   #109 
                    - I am not mistaking it at all.  Ms. Toad   Nov-07-08 01:19 PM   #117 
                       - And all I am saying is that at this point sacramental marriage  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-07-08 01:43 PM   #118 
                          - No objection from me for that change...  Ms. Toad   Nov-07-08 03:34 PM   #121 
                             - Then we fundamentally agree, we are working for equality  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-07-08 08:00 PM   #125 
                                - You're welcome.  Ms. Toad   Nov-07-08 08:05 PM   #126 
     - Marriage is a civil affair...  Luminous Animal   Nov-06-08 10:49 PM   #57 
  - I'd rather get rid of it all together than have gays participate? nt.  IndianaJones   Nov-06-08 08:39 PM   #9 
  - Funny... that's what I was thinking this morning. Why not? The whole "union" thing is for taxes,  DrZeeLit   Nov-06-08 08:44 PM   #10 
  - Marriage is not a church union  kdmorris   Nov-06-08 09:10 PM   #16 
  - It is not but the clergy has the RIGHT to officiate marriages in the US  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 09:14 PM   #20 
     - I understand what you are saying  kdmorris   Nov-06-08 09:38 PM   #36 
        - Actually marriage was not a civil institution until the Enlightenment  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 09:43 PM   #39 
           - Are you just talking about US history?  kdmorris   Nov-06-08 10:26 PM   #50 
              - Yes marriage happened also in 7th Century BCE judea... but I am talking RECENT  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 10:38 PM   #53 
  - I think I'm following everyone, but if not.... (not being dense, just tired, I guess)  DrZeeLit   Nov-07-08 01:06 PM   #116 
  - I must be dense, cause I still can't wrap my head around it.  Gwendolyn   Nov-06-08 08:44 PM   #11 
  - not quite, from personal experience the civil union in Mexico is exactly that  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 09:05 PM   #12 
     - What in your mind is the diff between civil marriage and civil union?  Gwendolyn   Nov-06-08 09:39 PM   #37 
        - Word simply... very technically the civil union is economic and civil in nature  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 09:48 PM   #43 
  - If there was any time in our history to capitulate to the fundies  JackBeck   Nov-06-08 09:07 PM   #14 
  - ROFL!  gollygee   Nov-06-08 09:08 PM   #15 
  - Glad to see someone could appreciate the nuance. n/t  JackBeck   Nov-06-08 11:22 PM   #75 
  - By taking away their power by influencing the way we speak of this  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 09:10 PM   #17 
     - Gay marriage WAS legal in California.  JackBeck   Nov-06-08 09:12 PM   #18 
        - It will be legal again, simply put, their overreached and this will have to go to  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 09:18 PM   #23 
           - Marriage is a legal term in this country  haruka3_2000   Nov-06-08 09:20 PM   #24 
              - I will... my marriage was performed by a rabbi and it is  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 09:25 PM   #28 
  - No  kdmorris   Nov-06-08 09:13 PM   #19 
  - Fundies do not want gay people playing their reindeer games  gollygee   Nov-06-08 09:15 PM   #21 
  - Yes you get it, why they will FIGHT this change and removal of all clergy  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 09:21 PM   #25 
     - Proposal 8 almost passed  gollygee   Nov-06-08 09:22 PM   #27 
        - Because this is not starting a new initiative. This will have to be done at a  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 09:29 PM   #31 
           - You are kidding yourself if you think that will ever pass  gollygee   Nov-06-08 09:31 PM   #32 
              - MY AGENDA? okie dokie....  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 09:35 PM   #35 
  - It's a civil marriage now. Changing it to civil unions for all wouldn't appease the nutjobs.  Gormy Cuss   Nov-06-08 09:21 PM   #26 
  - But they have the power to actually influence the civil world since  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 09:26 PM   #29 
     - No, people think there is a power attached to it. Each state determines the qualifications  Gormy Cuss   Nov-06-08 09:32 PM   #33 
        - And if this is a secular state, so they tell me, why should clergy even  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 09:54 PM   #45 
           - It's nothing more than a convenience  Gormy Cuss   Nov-07-08 10:10 AM   #105 
              - Sometimes conveniences have more into them than people realize  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-07-08 11:59 AM   #112 
                 - I don't argue that clergy should continue to get this convenience.  Gormy Cuss   Nov-07-08 03:14 PM   #119 
                    - Perception is reality  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-07-08 03:17 PM   #120 
                       - I think most people who've been married know that the state paperwork is needed.  Gormy Cuss   Nov-07-08 03:48 PM   #122 
                          - I am talking about people, the average joe  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-07-08 04:31 PM   #123 
                             - Again, every person married in a religious ceremony know that state paperwork must be signed.  Gormy Cuss   Nov-07-08 04:54 PM   #124 
  - Most of the countries like that had revolutions fought in large part against their churches  kenny blankenship   Nov-06-08 09:27 PM   #30 
  - I know the history and in mexico it was not one but three civil wars  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 09:33 PM   #34 
  - Petty Semantics. There Is No Need. Marriage Is Already A Civil Law. Gay People Should Be Able To  OPERATIONMINDCRIME   Nov-06-08 09:41 PM   #38 
  - The semantics have meaning, and I support it, but I also understand  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 09:44 PM   #40 
     - They Have No Power That Differs From The Power Anyone Else Can Have.  OPERATIONMINDCRIME   Nov-06-08 09:59 PM   #47 
     - It is HOW they act  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 10:46 PM   #56 
     - You are capitulating to the fundies...  Luminous Animal   Nov-06-08 10:54 PM   #59 
        - No I am not, I am short circuiting them out of the system  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 11:17 PM   #71 
           - Marriage is already a civil affair....  Luminous Animal   Nov-06-08 11:30 PM   #78 
              - Wait, you telling me that your marriage, would not involve  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 11:42 PM   #86 
                 - WOW!  Luminous Animal   Nov-06-08 11:48 PM   #90 
                    - Actually the conversation will go like this  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 11:50 PM   #91 
                       - What the state calls it means a lot.  Luminous Animal   Nov-07-08 12:08 AM   #96 
                          - I am told that people are not married until they have a religious ceremony  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-07-08 12:02 PM   #113 
  - IT WOULD NEVER PASS. No one would go for it and there is no need  GreenJ   Nov-06-08 09:46 PM   #42 
  - civil rights should never be left in the hands of the mob  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 09:52 PM   #44 
     - To say it would never pass is living in what I like to call "reality"  GreenJ   Nov-06-08 09:57 PM   #46 
     - Yeah well, in that same reality I would not have been able to  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 10:42 PM   #54 
        - You could get married because of a court decision which included you in the EXISTING INSTITUTION  Harvey Korman   Nov-06-08 10:58 PM   #64 
           - It is not foolishness, or if it was... pray tell me why  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 11:19 PM   #72 
              - because they are hate groups  Harvey Korman   Nov-06-08 11:30 PM   #79 
                 - Wrong... they don't hate you  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 11:36 PM   #83 
     - You are the one ceding power.  Luminous Animal   Nov-06-08 10:56 PM   #60 
        - Once again, what you call this varies from country to country  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 11:37 PM   #84 
           - Ceding language is ceding power. (n/t)  Luminous Animal   Nov-07-08 12:25 AM   #99 
              - Yep that is why the catholic church went to war in many places  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-07-08 12:07 PM   #114 
  - And all benefits from marriage should come with civil unions  sakabatou   Nov-06-08 10:37 PM   #52 
  - Exactly  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 10:43 PM   #55 
  - Including the benefit of calling it what it is? A civil marriage? n/t  FreeState   Nov-06-08 10:57 PM   #61 
     - Some nations call it a civil marriage, see Canada  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 11:32 PM   #82 
  - This is so fucked up...  Luminous Animal   Nov-06-08 10:57 PM   #63 
     - You are telling me that you cannot find a preacher that will marry you in  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 11:30 PM   #80 
        - I do not want a goddman preacher.  Luminous Animal   Nov-07-08 12:17 AM   #97 
           - So why are you so afraid of removing clergy from the equation?  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-07-08 12:24 PM   #115 
  - Marriage for all is working fine in Canada.  Siyahamba   Nov-06-08 10:57 PM   #62 
  - Sometimes the simplest solutions are the best ones...nt  SidDithers   Nov-06-08 11:02 PM   #67 
  - Which is EXACTLY what needs to happen here  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 11:20 PM   #73 
  - I was searching Obama's new site for some good news on this issue ..  votesomemore   Nov-06-08 10:59 PM   #65 
  - that's why you need the little piece of paper  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 11:22 PM   #76 
  - We already have that. It is called marriage.  Luminous Animal   Nov-06-08 11:01 PM   #66 
  - I am straight. Quit trying to take my marriage away from me.  Luminous Animal   Nov-06-08 11:32 PM   #81 
  - Before the state, absolutely, your rights are not affected  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 11:38 PM   #85 
     - No. You are proposing that I would no longer be married.  Luminous Animal   Nov-06-08 11:47 PM   #88 
        - Whatever dude, you are too married to the language and do not want to even  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 11:54 PM   #92 
  - Not just no, but FUCK NO.  piedmont   Nov-06-08 11:46 PM   #87 
  - you misunderstand, they can marry  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 11:48 PM   #89 
     - There may not be a difference to you, but I think most...  piedmont   Nov-06-08 11:58 PM   #95 
     - It works in many other countries  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-07-08 11:40 AM   #106 
     - Canada allows a choice, as we do.  Gwendolyn   Nov-07-08 12:27 AM   #100 
        - That is because people think of civil union the way that many a states  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-07-08 11:43 AM   #108 
  - If marriage is a religious thing then I want a divorce. I would gladly take a civil union tomorrow.  ContinentalOp   Nov-06-08 11:54 PM   #93 
  - Yet we have granted them the right to perform this civil ceremony  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-06-08 11:56 PM   #94 
     - Clergy is not the only ones empowered BY THE STATE  Luminous Animal   Nov-07-08 12:29 AM   #101 
        - The point is CLERGY should not be empowered, get it now?  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-07-08 11:41 AM   #107 
  - That's pie-in-the-sky thinking  Independent_Voice   Nov-07-08 04:07 AM   #102 
  - You can call it civil marriage if you want to, or pink tutu  nadinbrzezinski   Nov-07-08 11:56 AM   #110 
  - Makes sense to me, Government has no place in "religious marriages", but rather civil unions  aikoaiko   Nov-07-08 08:52 AM   #104 
 

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