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Reply #4: The outcry over the state of the Russian military began before Bush II. [View All]

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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. The outcry over the state of the Russian military began before Bush II.
It was there in the early '90s. Along with extreme humiliation and anger that places like Georgia didn't properly respect all the Russian narod had done for them and left them.

"Traitors." "Treachery." "Backstabbing."

Not all Russians think this, by far. Those that immigrate are less likely to think this way; but only "less likely", albeit quite a bit less likely.

A hard core of nationalists do think this way, for all the worst kinds of reasons--"lesser peoples" and that kind of rot. They deny facts, if necessary. Katyn' never happened (I use the Russian form, sorry); many deny the Molotov-von-Ribbentrop pact ever happened. Some believe Stalin was imposed by evil American-European internationalist Jews to punish the Russians and torment them; others believe that the West had a pact with Hitler to punish the Russians, and that's why "we" let Hitler kill Russians, and only interfered once it became clear that the Russian juggernaut had to be stopped.

Some believe it because they dislike "instability", with democracy and uncontrolled liberties being "chaos" (they see eye to eye with the Sa'udis on this point) and in need of being "shepherded"--since they obviously can't run the show themselves. They need a "strong hand" to run things, vol'nost'--one of the Russian words for 'freedom', only sometimes has a positive connotation, often has a wild connotation. "Svoboda"--another word for "freedom"--can be managed. Not only are the Poles and Georgians wild and ungoverned, but they "infect" good Russian areas like some contagion.

Others believe in Russian hegemony and imperialism because of economics--the US's invasion of Guatemala, redux (and defended by "progressives" critically thinking with no facts to base thought upon). It's a kind of Monroe Doctrine, one that "we" can accept because ... I'm not sure why.

Pragmatics seldom enters the equation. Usually people try to find a principle, and I'm not sure there is one that isn't mercenary and tedious.

In any event, Poland's behavior can be seen as motivated by the treatment Russia gave it in the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries. The tsar's treated it as a their province, with things run in Russian in Warsaw; Lenin had a huge problem with Poland's desire to stop being Russian, and countenanced Budyonnyi's rampage there. The loss of the provinces was a sore point, but they were powerless to do much about it in some cases. When you've lost Siberia and Central Asia and the Ukraine and need to take them back, you focus on core priorities. Poland wasn't "core". And when the USSR *could* do something about it, it was too weak to deal with the Baltics and E. Europe. They had to settle for the Caucasus, the tsar's' old stomping grounds. The Baltics and Poland were *too* free. Then again, they were occupied before Hitler opened the E. front, in 1940. Something usually overlooked--they were occupied to "protect" their populations and make them more "stable", first by having military bases, then an outright occupation.

Stalin lusted after Poland, and had no problem stabbing it in the back in the name of Slavic filial solidarity (as though Stalin were Slavic, right?), then making the country stand up and move West after the war a hundred miles or so to get revenge on Germany. Of course, the ground Poland got had been stripped of everything useful by the Russians, and the Poles were to leave things behind for the Russians. But it was for the Poles' own good. Really. (Ahem.) Khrushchev wasn't nice to Poland in '56, neither was Brezhnev. Putin's buddy, Lukashenka, treats ethnic Poles in Belorus' like a 5th column in the lands they've lived on for centuries.

And they're supposed to *like* Russia? Poland's dislike for Russia is a new thing, existing only after 2001? Russia's behavior--long term, and accompanied by seething on the part of many in the 1990s (note: pre-Bush II) and calls for revanchement--is due to *?

I want to believe, really. I want to. Maybe if you club me over the head with a big stick a few dozen times it'll help.
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  -A wake up call: the Republicans *did not want* this Russian invasion of Georgia. Donald Ian Rankin  Aug-16-08 05:27 PM   #0 
  - But it is Bush's fault  The Traveler   Aug-16-08 05:32 PM   #1 
  - You're reaching.  Donald Ian Rankin   Aug-16-08 05:52 PM   #3 
  - hardly. he's quite right. who upset the balance of power?  Hannah Bell   Aug-16-08 08:00 PM   #16 
  - Not really  The Traveler   Aug-16-08 10:16 PM   #20 
  - Just why did Georgia bomb and raize a civilian city with no military targets?  Bandit   Aug-17-08 10:13 AM   #32 
  - There are two possible answers to that; I don't know which it is yet.  Donald Ian Rankin   Aug-17-08 10:57 AM   #34 
  - ok, then explain what Karl Rove was doing in Georgia earlier this summer.  yardwork   Aug-18-08 04:04 PM   #44 
  - The outcry over the state of the Russian military began before Bush II.  igil   Aug-16-08 06:03 PM   #4 
     - britain gave the us bad treatment in the 18th-19th centuries. nothing  Hannah Bell   Aug-16-08 08:03 PM   #17 
     - No clubbing required!  The Traveler   Aug-16-08 10:11 PM   #19 
     - so Israel should invade Poland for its anti-semitism?  RainDog   Aug-18-08 09:58 AM   #36 
  - There are The Republicans...  AntiFascist   Aug-16-08 05:32 PM   #2 
  - BWHAHAHAHAHAHA!  Karenina   Aug-16-08 06:07 PM   #5 
  - Yeah...Cold Wars are TERRIBLE for Military Industrial Complexes....  Junkdrawer   Aug-16-08 06:09 PM   #6 
  - The first rule of DU:  Occam Bandage   Aug-16-08 06:12 PM   #7 
  - I think it is still not clear about who attacked who  MiniMe   Aug-16-08 06:55 PM   #8 
  - Of course they want to return to the cold war.  MrSlayer   Aug-16-08 07:02 PM   #9 
  - I think you're making the mistake of thinking the Republicans are cartoon villains.  Donald Ian Rankin   Aug-16-08 07:32 PM   #10 
     - ??????  lynyrd_skynyrd   Aug-16-08 07:37 PM   #11 
     - Yes they act by buying the ones in politics and then pull their strings accordingly.  Uncle Joe   Aug-16-08 07:40 PM   #12 
     - I think you are making the mistake of thinking they are not. nt  bemildred   Aug-16-08 08:27 PM   #18 
     - Well that depends on the flavour of self-interest.  baby_mouse   Aug-17-08 06:07 AM   #26 
     - They're not cartoon villains...but the majority SPEAK and VOTE that way...  Junkdrawer   Aug-17-08 06:55 AM   #28 
     - they're real people who genuinely want to make the world  seemslikeadream   Aug-18-08 09:48 AM   #35 
     - wow, that's one of the most ignorant, gullible remarks I've ever read here  RainDog   Aug-18-08 10:07 AM   #37 
  - OK  seemslikeadream   Aug-16-08 07:52 PM   #13 
  - I find it hard to believe georgia would have moved against russian  Hannah Bell   Aug-16-08 07:56 PM   #14 
  - Why Did 1,000 Marines Participate In A Georgia Military Excercise In July?  Better Believe It   Aug-16-08 07:59 PM   #15 
  - Possibly because Russian invasion of Georgia didn't look unlikely?  Donald Ian Rankin   Aug-17-08 05:22 AM   #24 
  - " . .. and they don't want to see a return to the Cold War" --- ????  defendandprotect   Aug-16-08 11:45 PM   #21 
  - to renew the cold war, for their own selfish greedy needs  alyce douglas   Aug-18-08 10:32 AM   #40 
  - Until proven otherwise, I think McCain started this with one of his daily calls to Georgia.  MarjorieG   Aug-16-08 11:47 PM   #22 
  - Yes, the Bushites hate war  daleo   Aug-17-08 12:20 AM   #23 
  - You are an authority on what republiks want?  greyhound1966   Aug-17-08 05:25 AM   #25 
  - By DU standards, it seems so - in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.  Donald Ian Rankin   Aug-17-08 06:42 AM   #27 
  - You're only kidding yourself.  Xap   Aug-17-08 07:41 AM   #29 
  - Sadly, I can't say the same to you.  Donald Ian Rankin   Aug-17-08 09:01 AM   #31 
  - Sorry but neoconservative adventurism and hubris has led to this.  mmonk   Aug-17-08 08:41 AM   #30 
  - ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##  DU GrovelBot   Aug-17-08 10:13 AM   #33 
  - Well, I guess that depends.  yibbehobba   Aug-18-08 10:08 AM   #38 
  - The neo-cons were also wrong about Russia in the 1970s and 1980s  RainDog   Aug-18-08 10:23 AM   #39 
     - Great documentary.  yibbehobba   Aug-18-08 10:47 AM   #41 
        - It's the outcome of their view of the world  RainDog   Aug-18-08 11:21 AM   #42 
  - Oh my darling, can you ever forgive me for my sin of thinking badly of Republicans?  Overseas   Aug-18-08 03:26 PM   #43 

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