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RedLetterRev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #28
165. A-way back when
and again, saying what I can say, people with "histories" were most certainly not allowed to hold clearances. Period. That was sorted out in the BI (background investigation). If that "history" was somehow not detected at that point for preliminary clearance, then it most certainly (and I must stress most certainly) would have been detected during the SBI (special background investigation) before access was allowed to particularly sensitive materials or information.

Such would have been the case here. Or I should think.

Now, I have been a civilian for 30 years and my memory isn't the greatest, but I'm not entirely toopit, either. I have since moved on to data analysis. (The rules are much the same.) But I clearly remember people losing access over divorce, hints of affairs, being gay (OH NOES!), seeing a professional counselor for even the least of mental or emotional problems, or even excessive traffic violations (oh, yes indeedy!). Investigations where swift, quiet and thorough. If allegations were proven, the person was gone and there was someone else working by your side.

Particular circumstances weren't discussed out of respect for the person's dignity (not bandied in the papers) and a quick internal briefing may have been given as to why it was important to give our continued attention to our jobs and why it was important to uphold our oaths to the Constitution, but that was about it. It wasn't fodder for tabloids. We did our parts because of loyalty to the Constitution and for the love of our country and fellow citizens.

A good part of warfare is psychological. The reason is that you don't ever give anyone who might have reason to exploit a perceived weakness in the system, a reason to exploit that perceived weakness. It's like the rule of the jungle. Part of being strong is appearing strong. Advertising a weakness (such as in this case) gives any enemy anywhere the perception that your internal structure is entirely in disarray and that you might not be able to respond if attacked. What message is BushCo giving with this circus? To my mind, it isn't a comforting one any way I look at it, or have looked at it since this story began unfolding.

I would wish to feel that my respect and love for the Constitution is shared by those who have responsibility for and stewardship of it. I promised and still am loyal to that same oath to the Constitution.

So you can't tell me that this dude worked for years with a known history that long with sensitive, even dangerous materiel if it was even hinted anywhere at all (even by word of mouth) that he had made a threat in passing to anyone, anywhere. Don't care who y'are. I was the least of the least of the least and they would have replaced me or a full-bull colonel equally quickly for stepping across well-marked boundaries.

If one gave a casual threat in passing, that is all it took to have that one's clearance pulled way-back-when and I heartily doubt that it would be any different now. They say times change, but in responsible handling of very sensitive things, I kinda doubt it.

Unless in Bushworld, the intelligence and weapons materiel field has become sloppier than your average landfill. Sigh.
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  -My two cents on the Anthrax Suicide from a former spook NightWatcher  Aug-02-08 12:05 PM   #0 
  - Recommending. n/t  stubtoe   Aug-02-08 12:09 PM   #1 
  - you can bet the Corp Media will stay very far from any follow-up questions (Mukasey will demand it)  Supersedeas   Aug-02-08 12:10 PM   #2 
  - Simple self-preservation will also demand it, I should think. n/t  tblue37   Aug-02-08 02:56 PM   #43 
  - Like I said, anyone  Enthusiast   Aug-03-08 12:39 AM   #147 
  - This whole deal smells funny.  navarth   Aug-02-08 12:10 PM   #3 
  - kind of like David Kelly n/t  48percenter   Aug-02-08 12:12 PM   #5 
     - Dr. Kelley has been going over and over in my mind.  Gregorian   Aug-02-08 07:35 PM   #102 
        - Scary, isn't it.  48percenter   Aug-03-08 01:22 AM   #149 
  - Worthy of a Pacino film (think of his "Insider" role on the whistleblower  monmouth   Aug-02-08 12:10 PM   #4 
  - Actually, the movie that comes to mind for me is  cadaverdog   Aug-02-08 06:14 PM   #81 
     - Excellent film  chatnoir   Aug-02-08 11:11 PM   #134 
  - This only goes away if we let it.  sellitman   Aug-02-08 12:12 PM   #6 
  - The media seems to have closed the book on him.  donco6   Aug-02-08 12:13 PM   #7 
  - not only that  itsjustme   Aug-02-08 12:15 PM   #8 
  - Proud to give rec #5  MorningGlow   Aug-02-08 12:15 PM   #9 
  - Suspicious Factors  rwenos   Aug-02-08 12:19 PM   #10 
  - iI thought they said it was an OD of Tylenol and something else...  willing dwarf   Aug-02-08 12:30 PM   #14 
  - Codeine, But In Any Other OD An Autopsy Would Be Performed  lligrd   Aug-02-08 12:37 PM   #16 
  - Timing, Proximity, Secrecy, Political Targets, Motives & Initial Propoganda  Supersedeas   Aug-02-08 05:43 PM   #76 
  - ...  JoeIsOneOfUs   Aug-02-08 05:48 PM   #79 
  - BINGO, CITIZEN  YEBBA   Aug-02-08 08:52 PM   #116 
  - Tidied up and closed permanently before Bush/Cheney exit.  tabatha   Aug-02-08 12:20 PM   #11 
  - Along with a lot of other evidence. They are covering up everything.  jwirr   Aug-02-08 03:58 PM   #48 
  - BINGO, CITIZEN  YEBBA   Aug-02-08 08:53 PM   #117 
  - Put options were closed fast. I remember the laid back curt absolution from Ashcroft.  higher class   Aug-02-08 10:18 PM   #125 
  - Yes. It is very CONVENIENT that this case is being closed up  mmonk   Aug-03-08 09:30 AM   #167 
  - I concur  formercia   Aug-02-08 12:22 PM   #12 
  - i'd love to hear your story  barbtries   Aug-03-08 08:43 AM   #161 
     - Here's one from my journal  formercia   Aug-03-08 09:09 AM   #164 
  - I wonder  KoKo01   Aug-02-08 12:27 PM   #13 
  - Thanks for your comments . . .  defendandprotect   Aug-02-08 12:33 PM   #15 
  - all that came up after he was targeted  itsjustme   Aug-02-08 12:42 PM   #20 
  - I didn't include it, but . . . .  defendandprotect   Aug-02-08 12:57 PM   #21 
  - other mind altering drugs -- apparently his 'therapist' is a drug counselor  Supersedeas   Aug-02-08 05:45 PM   #77 
     - ... sadly we've seen medical professionals working with the CIA, etc. . .  defendandprotect   Aug-02-08 09:01 PM   #119 
  - "Client has a history dating to his graduate days of homicidal threats,...'  NCevilDUer   Aug-02-08 02:58 PM   #45 
  - where are the witnesses to decades of this behavior? other than this one  JoeIsOneOfUs   Aug-02-08 04:43 PM   #57 
  - Google Jean C Duley - the only hits I could get were mentions in THIS story  csziggy   Aug-02-08 08:46 PM   #114 
     - that is interesting  barbtries   Aug-03-08 08:46 AM   #162 
  - Yep. They have their  Jesuswasntafascist   Aug-02-08 12:38 PM   #17 
  - Yep, If They Could Have Gotten Hatfield To Suicide Himself  lligrd   Aug-02-08 12:41 PM   #18 
  - Thank you.  yardwork   Aug-02-08 12:42 PM   #19 
  - The really sad thing is that there is no investigative reporting...  AntiFascist   Aug-02-08 01:10 PM   #26 
     - The corporate-owned media, you mean.  yardwork   Aug-02-08 02:44 PM   #41 
     - just heard a good NPR report - Ivin's colleagues are NOT buying it  JoeIsOneOfUs   Aug-02-08 04:22 PM   #52 
     - Very interesting !  AntiFascist   Aug-03-08 12:26 PM   #174 
     - our local rag has the AP piece that quotes a victim declaring the suicide as prove of guilt  Supersedeas   Aug-02-08 08:34 PM   #111 
  - Recommended -- n/t  Mme. Defarge   Aug-02-08 12:58 PM   #22 
  - Such a well-written OP, I was looking for a "link" to read more.  8_year_nightmare   Aug-02-08 01:00 PM   #23 
  - you have nailed it... so many really, really convenient suicides....lucky Adminitration, eh?  sojourner   Aug-02-08 04:32 PM   #54 
  - Bush and Cheney are the luckiest SOB's that ever lived..  Virginia Dare   Aug-02-08 06:24 PM   #86 
  - naming him as the  benddem   Aug-02-08 01:04 PM   #24 
  - It took Hatfil years to set the record straight.  sfexpat2000   Aug-02-08 01:06 PM   #25 
  - Seems to me like Hatfill didn't play according to plan and cave. nt  JoeIsOneOfUs   Aug-02-08 04:44 PM   #58 
     - so they found another target that would crumble--in time to close the case  Supersedeas   Aug-02-08 08:10 PM   #106 
  - k*r EXCELLENT  autorank   Aug-02-08 01:31 PM   #27 
  - Just heard an NPR report about them interrogating family  JoeIsOneOfUs   Aug-02-08 04:45 PM   #60 
     - A message, not lost on those watching, perhaps.  autorank   Aug-02-08 07:52 PM   #103 
  - Why was a known "homicidal sociopath" allowed to keep his Security Clearance in a military lab?  Kaleko   Aug-02-08 01:43 PM   #28 
  - Who is the Einstein that wrote the notes at the bottom? I think  yy4me   Aug-02-08 02:12 PM   #33 
  - Look at the clean elegance of Duley's signature  Kaleko   Aug-02-08 02:37 PM   #40 
     - and McRove went straight to Letterman declaring Iraq the source, and phase II  Supersedeas   Aug-02-08 08:37 PM   #113 
     - Don't be silly--why if anyone tried a conspiracy like this, everyone would know about it!  librechik   Aug-04-08 01:38 PM   #185 
  - Because he wasn't a sociopath or homicidal - it's all part of operation.  file83   Aug-02-08 02:14 PM   #34 
  - Good points. Note that Duley calls Dr. Ivins a "client", though.  Kaleko   Aug-02-08 02:44 PM   #42 
  - She worked for his employer.  screembloodymurder   Aug-02-08 04:49 PM   #62 
  - Exactly.  MorningGlow   Aug-02-08 02:58 PM   #44 
  - ok, that's one of my questions - Duley wasn't his therapist, right?  JoeIsOneOfUs   Aug-02-08 04:41 PM   #56 
     - According to this article on Huffpo, Duley was a social worker.  Kaleko   Aug-02-08 05:30 PM   #72 
  - That hand written statement at the bottom is weird.  Jazzgirl   Aug-02-08 02:28 PM   #39 
  - It's also neither signed nor dated.  gatorboy   Aug-02-08 04:20 PM   #50 
  - Well, perhaps we are supposed to assume that it was written on the back  file83   Aug-02-08 05:42 PM   #75 
  - Duley's petition shows dates.  Kaleko   Aug-02-08 07:06 PM   #96 
     - Correction: Duley's petition is dated July 21, 2008  Kaleko   Aug-03-08 12:44 PM   #176 
  - I do not mean to disparage drug therapists, however, I know  JDPriestly   Aug-02-08 06:42 PM   #92 
  - Does this look like the printing on the anthrax letters or not?  JDPriestly   Aug-02-08 06:40 PM   #90 
  - Not sure that even an accredited graphologist could tell from these samples.  Kaleko   Aug-02-08 07:11 PM   #97 
  - A-way back when  RedLetterRev   Aug-03-08 09:23 AM   #165 
  - Your statement makes sense. I expect our government to safeguard such weapons.  JDPriestly   Aug-03-08 12:43 PM   #175 
     - My loyalty to the Constitution is exactly why I am upset  RedLetterRev   Aug-03-08 03:14 PM   #180 
        - I'm with you on this. It's the lies and corruption and the perversion of our Constitution.  JDPriestly   Aug-03-08 03:59 PM   #181 
  - Ok. My rule: "When the actions don't match the words, you've found them out."  jazzjunkysue   Aug-03-08 11:59 AM   #173 
  - I find these kind of Bushite crimes even harder to stomach than their slaughter of  Peace Patriot   Aug-02-08 01:51 PM   #29 
  - excellent post  shireen   Aug-03-08 02:41 AM   #153 
  - Physician who worked with Ivins is pointing to the Justice Dept...  BeHereNow   Aug-02-08 01:58 PM   #30 
  - EXACTLY!!! We can also strike the other conspiracy theory that Irvin did it for $$$...  file83   Aug-02-08 02:22 PM   #36 
  - interesting. nt  JoeIsOneOfUs   Aug-02-08 04:48 PM   #61 
  - is Mukasey in charge of what the DoJ leaks to the Media?  Supersedeas   Aug-02-08 10:35 PM   #127 
     - him or Cheney I guess. Interesting this happens after the oversight hearings too. nt  JoeIsOneOfUs   Aug-02-08 11:20 PM   #137 
  - suicide!!!????  mamameow   Aug-02-08 02:02 PM   #31 
  - Those who responded . . "saw no signs of suicide" . . .  defendandprotect   Aug-02-08 05:06 PM   #65 
  - I was also in the business. I collected info.  alfredo   Aug-02-08 02:05 PM   #32 
  - You mean like...  file83   Aug-02-08 02:24 PM   #37 
  - yes  alfredo   Aug-02-08 02:26 PM   #38 
  - They certainly targeted Daschle .. .  defendandprotect   Aug-02-08 05:11 PM   #67 
     - Congress was threatened.  screembloodymurder   Aug-02-08 08:07 PM   #104 
     - Thank you . . . I had no idea he said this . . .  defendandprotect   Aug-02-08 08:54 PM   #118 
     - And do you remember..........  rucognizant   Aug-02-08 09:42 PM   #120 
     - Limbaugh was calling Daschle "El Diablo" during 2001  Mabus   Aug-03-08 09:29 AM   #166 
  - Have you ever heard of the Narcotics Task Force? They used to do that.  Joanne98   Aug-02-08 02:21 PM   #35 
  - that is truly frightening. nt  JoeIsOneOfUs   Aug-02-08 04:49 PM   #63 
  - Sick and evil people ---  defendandprotect   Aug-02-08 05:14 PM   #68 
  - wow but not really  grannie4peace   Aug-02-08 03:05 PM   #46 
  - They HAD to wrap this up before they loose control in January  Phred42   Aug-02-08 03:20 PM   #47 
  - As someone who has been around enough operators to know....  Aviation Pro   Aug-02-08 04:14 PM   #49 
  - Do you think we might hear anything pertinent from Hatfield?  JerseygirlCT   Aug-02-08 04:22 PM   #51 
  - I'd be willing to bet  me b zola   Aug-02-08 06:36 PM   #89 
     - omg, that would explain the timing  JoeIsOneOfUs   Aug-02-08 07:23 PM   #99 
        - How does one go about finding out about a legal settlement?  me b zola   Aug-02-08 08:52 PM   #115 
  - About three to six months after the attacks, a female biologist/phd  salin   Aug-02-08 04:25 PM   #53 
  - Barbara Hatch Rosenberg  PATRICK   Aug-02-08 05:46 PM   #78 
     - Is this her report? COMPILATION OF MAILED ANTHRAX EVIDENCE  csziggy   Aug-02-08 10:05 PM   #124 
        - good work - thanks for posting. nt  JoeIsOneOfUs   Aug-02-08 11:22 PM   #138 
        - Yes and you can  PATRICK   Aug-04-08 05:03 PM   #187 
  - So much for justice in this country  magellan   Aug-02-08 04:38 PM   #55 
  - Just another situation for Cheney & Bush to close the book on...  Imagevision   Aug-02-08 04:45 PM   #59 
  - Just Cheney Tying up the Loose Ends  AnnieBW   Aug-02-08 04:58 PM   #64 
  - You mean McCain is not going to choose Cheney as a running mate? n/t  Virginian   Aug-02-08 08:08 PM   #105 
  - This is a believable explanation of what was done to this man.  Mr_Jefferson_24   Aug-02-08 05:11 PM   #66 
  - I haven't been buying this one...  ImForGore   Aug-02-08 05:17 PM   #69 
  - i see, all the other times things added up? nt  tomp   Aug-02-08 11:44 PM   #145 
  - I didn't believe the story when it broke.  Ilsa   Aug-02-08 05:21 PM   #70 
  - evidence from the therapist? This case reminiscent of David Kelley & WMD.  shireen   Aug-02-08 05:29 PM   #71 
  - looks like M$NBC intends to trot out former prosecutor talking heads to emphasize how important  Supersedeas   Aug-03-08 09:41 AM   #168 
  - K & R  Christa   Aug-02-08 05:35 PM   #73 
  - Why does a suspicious death not rate an autopsy?????  newfie11   Aug-02-08 05:38 PM   #74 
  - Motive and scenario  mr.anonymouslurker   Aug-02-08 06:05 PM   #80 
  - Welcome to DU..............I think?  Tinksrival   Aug-02-08 08:14 PM   #108 
  - Welcome to DU and please...  Mr_Jefferson_24   Aug-02-08 08:36 PM   #112 
  - 3 undeniable facts: Blame Islamists, real source Ft Detrick, Propoganda pretext for Iraq invasion  Supersedeas   Aug-02-08 11:10 PM   #133 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Aug-02-08 11:17 PM   #135 
  - Good analysis.  TexasObserver   Aug-03-08 06:35 AM   #156 
  - Welcome to DU. Who are Zack and Rippy?  yardwork   Aug-04-08 02:03 PM   #186 
  - But we do need to celebrate this  itsjustme   Aug-02-08 06:16 PM   #82 
  - It's not a conspiracy theory  NCevilDUer   Aug-02-08 06:30 PM   #87 
     - Balderdash! Of course it is a conspiracy theory. (eom)  eomer   Aug-02-08 06:57 PM   #94 
        - There's conspiracy theories  NCevilDUer   Aug-02-08 07:19 PM   #98 
           - Your "conspiracy theories", by which I assume you mean wild and unfounded theories of loonies,  eomer   Aug-03-08 07:19 AM   #157 
  - If Hatfield was allowed to live to sue, why didn't Ivins go to the ACLU with his story?  The Backlash Cometh   Aug-02-08 06:17 PM   #83 
  - Because he was right-wing and thought the ACLU was a bad  JDPriestly   Aug-03-08 12:46 PM   #177 
     - Has it been determined he's right-wing?  The Backlash Cometh   Aug-04-08 06:57 AM   #183 
  - Thank you for your professional opinion Nightwatcher..  Virginia Dare   Aug-02-08 06:20 PM   #84 
  - K&R. I doubted the story the minute I heard it.  AZBlue   Aug-02-08 06:21 PM   #85 
  - Wow...It's a slam-dunk murder, IMO  nikto   Aug-02-08 06:31 PM   #88 
  - kick  samsingh   Aug-02-08 06:41 PM   #91 
  - But...but...but...  Progs Rock   Aug-02-08 06:49 PM   #93 
  - While I don't deny that anything is possible, it's also possible and maybe more likely  Stevepol   Aug-02-08 07:05 PM   #95 
  - The L.A. Times (hard copy edition) ran a story  JDPriestly   Aug-02-08 07:31 PM   #100 
  - tylenol with codeine suicide -- from an MD's pov  mainer   Aug-02-08 07:34 PM   #101 
  - Informative post. Thank you.  Bozita   Aug-02-08 08:14 PM   #107 
  - how long do you have for stomach pumping?  JoeIsOneOfUs   Aug-02-08 09:45 PM   #121 
  - Here's his claimed "therapist" talking about her happy pills  MetaTrope   Aug-02-08 11:06 PM   #131 
  - subozone users are asked to attend a group session once a week  Supersedeas   Aug-02-08 11:29 PM   #141 
  - A frightening, related link from that same FrederickNewsPost page.  FraDon   Aug-03-08 11:45 AM   #172 
  - The lethal dose of codeine  factcheckr   Aug-02-08 11:07 PM   #132 
  - and yet the Corporate Scriveners couldn't take the time to ask a physician about his death?  Supersedeas   Aug-02-08 11:19 PM   #136 
  - Maybe these sorts of questions are why the story changed  clear eye   Aug-03-08 03:32 AM   #155 
  - The lack of autopsy, if true, is unbelievable.  SmokingJacket   Aug-02-08 08:20 PM   #109 
  - " history of making homicidal threats" - Background check?  autorank   Aug-02-08 08:32 PM   #110 
  - I have yet to hear anyone other than that verify it  JoeIsOneOfUs   Aug-02-08 09:47 PM   #122 
  - Good point. Check this out - the tape of the Social Workers restraing order hearing  autorank   Aug-02-08 11:43 PM   #144 
  - Lots of very healthy people were suicidal at some point in their life.  JDPriestly   Aug-03-08 12:52 PM   #178 
  - much of the DoJ/Media PR case revolves around Ms. Duley's 'analysis' of Ivin  Supersedeas   Aug-02-08 11:32 PM   #143 
  - Now that was good analysis.  caseymoz   Aug-02-08 10:03 PM   #123 
  - fascinating  jeme   Aug-02-08 10:27 PM   #126 
  - I thought the second that drugs are involved an autopsy is ORDERED.  higher class   Aug-02-08 10:50 PM   #128 
  - No. My dad overdosed and no autopsy was performed per Mom's wishes. nt  Flatulo   Aug-02-08 11:23 PM   #139 
     - That's surprising  Spiffarino   Aug-03-08 12:38 AM   #146 
  - "They' hate us for our freedom.  higher class   Aug-02-08 10:52 PM   #129 
  - When you look at all the lies and set-ups - it makes a person  higher class   Aug-02-08 10:53 PM   #130 
  - Case closed.  Major Hogwash   Aug-02-08 11:29 PM   #140 
  - Just another day in paradise. One suicide after another after another...  Indenturedebtor   Aug-02-08 11:30 PM   #142 
  - There will be many unusual happenings...  Spiffarino   Aug-03-08 12:40 AM   #148 
  - Article of Interest  phoenixriz   Aug-03-08 02:35 AM   #152 
  - They've got suicidal depression in a pill, I'm sure. Not a lot of harassment needed.  hunter   Aug-03-08 01:43 AM   #150 
  - ABC news releases from undisclosed sources now look like perps. That should keep story alive  bjobotts   Aug-03-08 01:50 AM   #151 
  - CNN is running hard with the "he was about to go postal" audio exerpt from Duley  Supersedeas   Aug-03-08 09:07 AM   #163 
  - 133rd recommendation here. oh, and a little kick as well. n/t  orleans   Aug-03-08 03:02 AM   #154 
  - no autopsy?  raging_moderate   Aug-03-08 08:27 AM   #158 
  - FWIW From another former spook  RedLetterRev   Aug-03-08 08:34 AM   #159 
  - That is EXACTLY what I think-  BeHereNow   Aug-03-08 10:06 PM   #182 
  - What I thought was outrageous...  pipi_k   Aug-03-08 08:42 AM   #160 
  - Well Mr. Spook,  Y B Gerbil   Aug-03-08 09:52 AM   #169 
  - Obviously, it is a viciously organised nightmare for the victims of overt  KCabotDullesMarxIII   Aug-03-08 10:00 AM   #170 
  - And I'd better not get cocky or they'll take me down a peg or three.  KCabotDullesMarxIII   Aug-03-08 02:18 PM   #179 
  - Agree wholeheartedly.  sourmilk   Aug-03-08 10:21 AM   #171 
  - Thom Hartmann just talked about this post  SharonRB   Aug-04-08 01:14 PM   #184 
  - One of Ivins' friends also talked about the fact he had no more money for lawyers . . ..  defendandprotect   Aug-05-08 01:35 PM   #188 

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