You are viewing an obsolete version of the DU website which is no longer supported by the Administrators. Visit The New DU.
Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login

Reply #29: I find these kind of Bushite crimes even harder to stomach than their slaughter of [View All]

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-08 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
29. I find these kind of Bushite crimes even harder to stomach than their slaughter of
100,000 people to get their oil. At least the 100,000 can go in peace. Not the maimed, of course. And there will be blowback, because those 100,000 are connected to millions of others--friends, relatives, sympathizers--who have thousand year old memories for grudges. The dead don't have to worry about it any more, either way, is all I'm saying.

But to torture a man for seven years. Also, in Guantanamo--four-five years of torture--and in torture dungeons around the world. And others like Ivins, Bushite targets and patsies, driven mad. These are worse crimes than murder. They are crimes against the soul, and they bespeak a medieval sensibility, of the kind that can slowly drive screws into peoples' heads, or pull out of their fingernails, or stretched their bodies until their limbs come unstuck, or burn them at the stake.

I once did some research on an ancient crime--415 AD, the death of a woman named Hypatia, the last of the Greek philosophers and mathematicians, and the last head of the Alexandria Library, an extraordinarily erudite and beloved teacher (she even taught Catholic bishops of the better kind, such as Bishop Sinesius of Ptotemais, with whom she exchanged many letters). Her death was ordered by the first Catholic bishop to call himself a "patriarch" (Bishop Cyril of Alexandria, still considered a "saint" by the Catholic Church). He was the worser kind of bishop--power-hungry, ambitious, greedy. (He drove the Jews from Alexandria and confiscated their property.) A mob of Catholic monks, who took their orders from Cyril, assaulted Hypatia on the street, and didn't just kill her. They skinned her alive. Why? Because, at that time, it was thought that being flayed to death prevented your soul from going to Heaven.

They didn't want to just kill her; they wanted to extinguish her very spirit--send her to Hell, make her unrecognizable to God, rob her of her very identity, and erase her from human memory. And they almost succeeded--but for the survival of Sinesius' letters and a few accounts.

To drive someone to suicide (if that's how Ivins died), by a seven-year persecution, is like killing the soul. In Catholic theology, suicides cannot go to Heaven, and cannot even be buried in sacred ground. For a Catholic, it is the ultimate sin.

The death of someone's soul--killed for power, for money, to cover up other heinous crimes, or for sadistic pleasure--is a particularly horrifying thing to contemplate. Death itself is not as horrifying. It is slow death that is the most horrifying. The death of the spirit.

Some folks may not believe in the soul--or in the afterlife of the soul. But I think all can agree that there is something special about the human mind, personality, and--dare I say--spirit. We know it when we see it. A person's energy, positive outlook, ability to recover from set-backs, freedom, creativity, humor, delight. Sometimes we see it sucked out of the old, because of physical ailments--although old people can also retain their...spark of life, their spirit, despite ailments. True grit? Life force? Chi? We have a lot of names for it. It is plainly visible when you see someone die. The spark leaves. And it is far more than motion and activity--or the functions of the heart or the kidneys or the bowels. There was something there that was more than the sum of its bodily parts, and it is gone. We may not all agree on what happens next. But I think we probably all agree that what animated that person was not mechanistic and not easily explainable--no matter how much we delve into it with scientific methods. Something similar is true of animal deaths, but it is not the same. This is why murdering a human is a crime--and killing an animal generally is not.

So, to persecute and damage a human spirit is a particularly heinous crime, in my view. The Bushites are guilty of this many times over. And they are also guilty of dragging others into it--such as FBI agents, their torture crews, their mercenaries, their bullied, blackmailed or bribed politicians, young soldiers placed in difficult situations and told to shoot first and ask questions later, the young lawyers they've dragged out of Bible School to do their bidding in the DoJ. They are harming the spirits of their operatives, as well as their particular targets.

It is appalling.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
  -My two cents on the Anthrax Suicide from a former spook NightWatcher  Aug-02-08 12:05 PM   #0 
  - Recommending. n/t  stubtoe   Aug-02-08 12:09 PM   #1 
  - you can bet the Corp Media will stay very far from any follow-up questions (Mukasey will demand it)  Supersedeas   Aug-02-08 12:10 PM   #2 
  - Simple self-preservation will also demand it, I should think. n/t  tblue37   Aug-02-08 02:56 PM   #43 
  - Like I said, anyone  Enthusiast   Aug-03-08 12:39 AM   #147 
  - This whole deal smells funny.  navarth   Aug-02-08 12:10 PM   #3 
  - kind of like David Kelly n/t  48percenter   Aug-02-08 12:12 PM   #5 
     - Dr. Kelley has been going over and over in my mind.  Gregorian   Aug-02-08 07:35 PM   #102 
        - Scary, isn't it.  48percenter   Aug-03-08 01:22 AM   #149 
  - Worthy of a Pacino film (think of his "Insider" role on the whistleblower  monmouth   Aug-02-08 12:10 PM   #4 
  - Actually, the movie that comes to mind for me is  cadaverdog   Aug-02-08 06:14 PM   #81 
     - Excellent film  chatnoir   Aug-02-08 11:11 PM   #134 
  - This only goes away if we let it.  sellitman   Aug-02-08 12:12 PM   #6 
  - The media seems to have closed the book on him.  donco6   Aug-02-08 12:13 PM   #7 
  - not only that  itsjustme   Aug-02-08 12:15 PM   #8 
  - Proud to give rec #5  MorningGlow   Aug-02-08 12:15 PM   #9 
  - Suspicious Factors  rwenos   Aug-02-08 12:19 PM   #10 
  - iI thought they said it was an OD of Tylenol and something else...  willing dwarf   Aug-02-08 12:30 PM   #14 
  - Codeine, But In Any Other OD An Autopsy Would Be Performed  lligrd   Aug-02-08 12:37 PM   #16 
  - Timing, Proximity, Secrecy, Political Targets, Motives & Initial Propoganda  Supersedeas   Aug-02-08 05:43 PM   #76 
  - ...  JoeIsOneOfUs   Aug-02-08 05:48 PM   #79 
  - BINGO, CITIZEN  YEBBA   Aug-02-08 08:52 PM   #116 
  - Tidied up and closed permanently before Bush/Cheney exit.  tabatha   Aug-02-08 12:20 PM   #11 
  - Along with a lot of other evidence. They are covering up everything.  jwirr   Aug-02-08 03:58 PM   #48 
  - BINGO, CITIZEN  YEBBA   Aug-02-08 08:53 PM   #117 
  - Put options were closed fast. I remember the laid back curt absolution from Ashcroft.  higher class   Aug-02-08 10:18 PM   #125 
  - Yes. It is very CONVENIENT that this case is being closed up  mmonk   Aug-03-08 09:30 AM   #167 
  - I concur  formercia   Aug-02-08 12:22 PM   #12 
  - i'd love to hear your story  barbtries   Aug-03-08 08:43 AM   #161 
     - Here's one from my journal  formercia   Aug-03-08 09:09 AM   #164 
  - I wonder  KoKo01   Aug-02-08 12:27 PM   #13 
  - Thanks for your comments . . .  defendandprotect   Aug-02-08 12:33 PM   #15 
  - all that came up after he was targeted  itsjustme   Aug-02-08 12:42 PM   #20 
  - I didn't include it, but . . . .  defendandprotect   Aug-02-08 12:57 PM   #21 
  - other mind altering drugs -- apparently his 'therapist' is a drug counselor  Supersedeas   Aug-02-08 05:45 PM   #77 
     - ... sadly we've seen medical professionals working with the CIA, etc. . .  defendandprotect   Aug-02-08 09:01 PM   #119 
  - "Client has a history dating to his graduate days of homicidal threats,...'  NCevilDUer   Aug-02-08 02:58 PM   #45 
  - where are the witnesses to decades of this behavior? other than this one  JoeIsOneOfUs   Aug-02-08 04:43 PM   #57 
  - Google Jean C Duley - the only hits I could get were mentions in THIS story  csziggy   Aug-02-08 08:46 PM   #114 
     - that is interesting  barbtries   Aug-03-08 08:46 AM   #162 
  - Yep. They have their  Jesuswasntafascist   Aug-02-08 12:38 PM   #17 
  - Yep, If They Could Have Gotten Hatfield To Suicide Himself  lligrd   Aug-02-08 12:41 PM   #18 
  - Thank you.  yardwork   Aug-02-08 12:42 PM   #19 
  - The really sad thing is that there is no investigative reporting...  AntiFascist   Aug-02-08 01:10 PM   #26 
     - The corporate-owned media, you mean.  yardwork   Aug-02-08 02:44 PM   #41 
     - just heard a good NPR report - Ivin's colleagues are NOT buying it  JoeIsOneOfUs   Aug-02-08 04:22 PM   #52 
     - Very interesting !  AntiFascist   Aug-03-08 12:26 PM   #174 
     - our local rag has the AP piece that quotes a victim declaring the suicide as prove of guilt  Supersedeas   Aug-02-08 08:34 PM   #111 
  - Recommended -- n/t  Mme. Defarge   Aug-02-08 12:58 PM   #22 
  - Such a well-written OP, I was looking for a "link" to read more.  8_year_nightmare   Aug-02-08 01:00 PM   #23 
  - you have nailed it... so many really, really convenient suicides....lucky Adminitration, eh?  sojourner   Aug-02-08 04:32 PM   #54 
  - Bush and Cheney are the luckiest SOB's that ever lived..  Virginia Dare   Aug-02-08 06:24 PM   #86 
  - naming him as the  benddem   Aug-02-08 01:04 PM   #24 
  - It took Hatfil years to set the record straight.  sfexpat2000   Aug-02-08 01:06 PM   #25 
  - Seems to me like Hatfill didn't play according to plan and cave. nt  JoeIsOneOfUs   Aug-02-08 04:44 PM   #58 
     - so they found another target that would crumble--in time to close the case  Supersedeas   Aug-02-08 08:10 PM   #106 
  - k*r EXCELLENT  autorank   Aug-02-08 01:31 PM   #27 
  - Just heard an NPR report about them interrogating family  JoeIsOneOfUs   Aug-02-08 04:45 PM   #60 
     - A message, not lost on those watching, perhaps.  autorank   Aug-02-08 07:52 PM   #103 
  - Why was a known "homicidal sociopath" allowed to keep his Security Clearance in a military lab?  Kaleko   Aug-02-08 01:43 PM   #28 
  - Who is the Einstein that wrote the notes at the bottom? I think  yy4me   Aug-02-08 02:12 PM   #33 
  - Look at the clean elegance of Duley's signature  Kaleko   Aug-02-08 02:37 PM   #40 
     - and McRove went straight to Letterman declaring Iraq the source, and phase II  Supersedeas   Aug-02-08 08:37 PM   #113 
     - Don't be silly--why if anyone tried a conspiracy like this, everyone would know about it!  librechik   Aug-04-08 01:38 PM   #185 
  - Because he wasn't a sociopath or homicidal - it's all part of operation.  file83   Aug-02-08 02:14 PM   #34 
  - Good points. Note that Duley calls Dr. Ivins a "client", though.  Kaleko   Aug-02-08 02:44 PM   #42 
  - She worked for his employer.  screembloodymurder   Aug-02-08 04:49 PM   #62 
  - Exactly.  MorningGlow   Aug-02-08 02:58 PM   #44 
  - ok, that's one of my questions - Duley wasn't his therapist, right?  JoeIsOneOfUs   Aug-02-08 04:41 PM   #56 
     - According to this article on Huffpo, Duley was a social worker.  Kaleko   Aug-02-08 05:30 PM   #72 
  - That hand written statement at the bottom is weird.  Jazzgirl   Aug-02-08 02:28 PM   #39 
  - It's also neither signed nor dated.  gatorboy   Aug-02-08 04:20 PM   #50 
  - Well, perhaps we are supposed to assume that it was written on the back  file83   Aug-02-08 05:42 PM   #75 
  - Duley's petition shows dates.  Kaleko   Aug-02-08 07:06 PM   #96 
     - Correction: Duley's petition is dated July 21, 2008  Kaleko   Aug-03-08 12:44 PM   #176 
  - I do not mean to disparage drug therapists, however, I know  JDPriestly   Aug-02-08 06:42 PM   #92 
  - Does this look like the printing on the anthrax letters or not?  JDPriestly   Aug-02-08 06:40 PM   #90 
  - Not sure that even an accredited graphologist could tell from these samples.  Kaleko   Aug-02-08 07:11 PM   #97 
  - A-way back when  RedLetterRev   Aug-03-08 09:23 AM   #165 
  - Your statement makes sense. I expect our government to safeguard such weapons.  JDPriestly   Aug-03-08 12:43 PM   #175 
     - My loyalty to the Constitution is exactly why I am upset  RedLetterRev   Aug-03-08 03:14 PM   #180 
        - I'm with you on this. It's the lies and corruption and the perversion of our Constitution.  JDPriestly   Aug-03-08 03:59 PM   #181 
  - Ok. My rule: "When the actions don't match the words, you've found them out."  jazzjunkysue   Aug-03-08 11:59 AM   #173 
  - I find these kind of Bushite crimes even harder to stomach than their slaughter of  Peace Patriot   Aug-02-08 01:51 PM   #29 
  - excellent post  shireen   Aug-03-08 02:41 AM   #153 
  - Physician who worked with Ivins is pointing to the Justice Dept...  BeHereNow   Aug-02-08 01:58 PM   #30 
  - EXACTLY!!! We can also strike the other conspiracy theory that Irvin did it for $$$...  file83   Aug-02-08 02:22 PM   #36 
  - interesting. nt  JoeIsOneOfUs   Aug-02-08 04:48 PM   #61 
  - is Mukasey in charge of what the DoJ leaks to the Media?  Supersedeas   Aug-02-08 10:35 PM   #127 
     - him or Cheney I guess. Interesting this happens after the oversight hearings too. nt  JoeIsOneOfUs   Aug-02-08 11:20 PM   #137 
  - suicide!!!????  mamameow   Aug-02-08 02:02 PM   #31 
  - Those who responded . . "saw no signs of suicide" . . .  defendandprotect   Aug-02-08 05:06 PM   #65 
  - I was also in the business. I collected info.  alfredo   Aug-02-08 02:05 PM   #32 
  - You mean like...  file83   Aug-02-08 02:24 PM   #37 
  - yes  alfredo   Aug-02-08 02:26 PM   #38 
  - They certainly targeted Daschle .. .  defendandprotect   Aug-02-08 05:11 PM   #67 
     - Congress was threatened.  screembloodymurder   Aug-02-08 08:07 PM   #104 
     - Thank you . . . I had no idea he said this . . .  defendandprotect   Aug-02-08 08:54 PM   #118 
     - And do you remember..........  rucognizant   Aug-02-08 09:42 PM   #120 
     - Limbaugh was calling Daschle "El Diablo" during 2001  Mabus   Aug-03-08 09:29 AM   #166 
  - Have you ever heard of the Narcotics Task Force? They used to do that.  Joanne98   Aug-02-08 02:21 PM   #35 
  - that is truly frightening. nt  JoeIsOneOfUs   Aug-02-08 04:49 PM   #63 
  - Sick and evil people ---  defendandprotect   Aug-02-08 05:14 PM   #68 
  - wow but not really  grannie4peace   Aug-02-08 03:05 PM   #46 
  - They HAD to wrap this up before they loose control in January  Phred42   Aug-02-08 03:20 PM   #47 
  - As someone who has been around enough operators to know....  Aviation Pro   Aug-02-08 04:14 PM   #49 
  - Do you think we might hear anything pertinent from Hatfield?  JerseygirlCT   Aug-02-08 04:22 PM   #51 
  - I'd be willing to bet  me b zola   Aug-02-08 06:36 PM   #89 
     - omg, that would explain the timing  JoeIsOneOfUs   Aug-02-08 07:23 PM   #99 
        - How does one go about finding out about a legal settlement?  me b zola   Aug-02-08 08:52 PM   #115 
  - About three to six months after the attacks, a female biologist/phd  salin   Aug-02-08 04:25 PM   #53 
  - Barbara Hatch Rosenberg  PATRICK   Aug-02-08 05:46 PM   #78 
     - Is this her report? COMPILATION OF MAILED ANTHRAX EVIDENCE  csziggy   Aug-02-08 10:05 PM   #124 
        - good work - thanks for posting. nt  JoeIsOneOfUs   Aug-02-08 11:22 PM   #138 
        - Yes and you can  PATRICK   Aug-04-08 05:03 PM   #187 
  - So much for justice in this country  magellan   Aug-02-08 04:38 PM   #55 
  - Just another situation for Cheney & Bush to close the book on...  Imagevision   Aug-02-08 04:45 PM   #59 
  - Just Cheney Tying up the Loose Ends  AnnieBW   Aug-02-08 04:58 PM   #64 
  - You mean McCain is not going to choose Cheney as a running mate? n/t  Virginian   Aug-02-08 08:08 PM   #105 
  - This is a believable explanation of what was done to this man.  Mr_Jefferson_24   Aug-02-08 05:11 PM   #66 
  - I haven't been buying this one...  ImForGore   Aug-02-08 05:17 PM   #69 
  - i see, all the other times things added up? nt  tomp   Aug-02-08 11:44 PM   #145 
  - I didn't believe the story when it broke.  Ilsa   Aug-02-08 05:21 PM   #70 
  - evidence from the therapist? This case reminiscent of David Kelley & WMD.  shireen   Aug-02-08 05:29 PM   #71 
  - looks like M$NBC intends to trot out former prosecutor talking heads to emphasize how important  Supersedeas   Aug-03-08 09:41 AM   #168 
  - K & R  Christa   Aug-02-08 05:35 PM   #73 
  - Why does a suspicious death not rate an autopsy?????  newfie11   Aug-02-08 05:38 PM   #74 
  - Motive and scenario  mr.anonymouslurker   Aug-02-08 06:05 PM   #80 
  - Welcome to DU..............I think?  Tinksrival   Aug-02-08 08:14 PM   #108 
  - Welcome to DU and please...  Mr_Jefferson_24   Aug-02-08 08:36 PM   #112 
  - 3 undeniable facts: Blame Islamists, real source Ft Detrick, Propoganda pretext for Iraq invasion  Supersedeas   Aug-02-08 11:10 PM   #133 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Aug-02-08 11:17 PM   #135 
  - Good analysis.  TexasObserver   Aug-03-08 06:35 AM   #156 
  - Welcome to DU. Who are Zack and Rippy?  yardwork   Aug-04-08 02:03 PM   #186 
  - But we do need to celebrate this  itsjustme   Aug-02-08 06:16 PM   #82 
  - It's not a conspiracy theory  NCevilDUer   Aug-02-08 06:30 PM   #87 
     - Balderdash! Of course it is a conspiracy theory. (eom)  eomer   Aug-02-08 06:57 PM   #94 
        - There's conspiracy theories  NCevilDUer   Aug-02-08 07:19 PM   #98 
           - Your "conspiracy theories", by which I assume you mean wild and unfounded theories of loonies,  eomer   Aug-03-08 07:19 AM   #157 
  - If Hatfield was allowed to live to sue, why didn't Ivins go to the ACLU with his story?  The Backlash Cometh   Aug-02-08 06:17 PM   #83 
  - Because he was right-wing and thought the ACLU was a bad  JDPriestly   Aug-03-08 12:46 PM   #177 
     - Has it been determined he's right-wing?  The Backlash Cometh   Aug-04-08 06:57 AM   #183 
  - Thank you for your professional opinion Nightwatcher..  Virginia Dare   Aug-02-08 06:20 PM   #84 
  - K&R. I doubted the story the minute I heard it.  AZBlue   Aug-02-08 06:21 PM   #85 
  - Wow...It's a slam-dunk murder, IMO  nikto   Aug-02-08 06:31 PM   #88 
  - kick  samsingh   Aug-02-08 06:41 PM   #91 
  - But...but...but...  Progs Rock   Aug-02-08 06:49 PM   #93 
  - While I don't deny that anything is possible, it's also possible and maybe more likely  Stevepol   Aug-02-08 07:05 PM   #95 
  - The L.A. Times (hard copy edition) ran a story  JDPriestly   Aug-02-08 07:31 PM   #100 
  - tylenol with codeine suicide -- from an MD's pov  mainer   Aug-02-08 07:34 PM   #101 
  - Informative post. Thank you.  Bozita   Aug-02-08 08:14 PM   #107 
  - how long do you have for stomach pumping?  JoeIsOneOfUs   Aug-02-08 09:45 PM   #121 
  - Here's his claimed "therapist" talking about her happy pills  MetaTrope   Aug-02-08 11:06 PM   #131 
  - subozone users are asked to attend a group session once a week  Supersedeas   Aug-02-08 11:29 PM   #141 
  - A frightening, related link from that same FrederickNewsPost page.  FraDon   Aug-03-08 11:45 AM   #172 
  - The lethal dose of codeine  factcheckr   Aug-02-08 11:07 PM   #132 
  - and yet the Corporate Scriveners couldn't take the time to ask a physician about his death?  Supersedeas   Aug-02-08 11:19 PM   #136 
  - Maybe these sorts of questions are why the story changed  clear eye   Aug-03-08 03:32 AM   #155 
  - The lack of autopsy, if true, is unbelievable.  SmokingJacket   Aug-02-08 08:20 PM   #109 
  - " history of making homicidal threats" - Background check?  autorank   Aug-02-08 08:32 PM   #110 
  - I have yet to hear anyone other than that verify it  JoeIsOneOfUs   Aug-02-08 09:47 PM   #122 
  - Good point. Check this out - the tape of the Social Workers restraing order hearing  autorank   Aug-02-08 11:43 PM   #144 
  - Lots of very healthy people were suicidal at some point in their life.  JDPriestly   Aug-03-08 12:52 PM   #178 
  - much of the DoJ/Media PR case revolves around Ms. Duley's 'analysis' of Ivin  Supersedeas   Aug-02-08 11:32 PM   #143 
  - Now that was good analysis.  caseymoz   Aug-02-08 10:03 PM   #123 
  - fascinating  jeme   Aug-02-08 10:27 PM   #126 
  - I thought the second that drugs are involved an autopsy is ORDERED.  higher class   Aug-02-08 10:50 PM   #128 
  - No. My dad overdosed and no autopsy was performed per Mom's wishes. nt  Flatulo   Aug-02-08 11:23 PM   #139 
     - That's surprising  Spiffarino   Aug-03-08 12:38 AM   #146 
  - "They' hate us for our freedom.  higher class   Aug-02-08 10:52 PM   #129 
  - When you look at all the lies and set-ups - it makes a person  higher class   Aug-02-08 10:53 PM   #130 
  - Case closed.  Major Hogwash   Aug-02-08 11:29 PM   #140 
  - Just another day in paradise. One suicide after another after another...  Indenturedebtor   Aug-02-08 11:30 PM   #142 
  - There will be many unusual happenings...  Spiffarino   Aug-03-08 12:40 AM   #148 
  - Article of Interest  phoenixriz   Aug-03-08 02:35 AM   #152 
  - They've got suicidal depression in a pill, I'm sure. Not a lot of harassment needed.  hunter   Aug-03-08 01:43 AM   #150 
  - ABC news releases from undisclosed sources now look like perps. That should keep story alive  bjobotts   Aug-03-08 01:50 AM   #151 
  - CNN is running hard with the "he was about to go postal" audio exerpt from Duley  Supersedeas   Aug-03-08 09:07 AM   #163 
  - 133rd recommendation here. oh, and a little kick as well. n/t  orleans   Aug-03-08 03:02 AM   #154 
  - no autopsy?  raging_moderate   Aug-03-08 08:27 AM   #158 
  - FWIW From another former spook  RedLetterRev   Aug-03-08 08:34 AM   #159 
  - That is EXACTLY what I think-  BeHereNow   Aug-03-08 10:06 PM   #182 
  - What I thought was outrageous...  pipi_k   Aug-03-08 08:42 AM   #160 
  - Well Mr. Spook,  Y B Gerbil   Aug-03-08 09:52 AM   #169 
  - Obviously, it is a viciously organised nightmare for the victims of overt  KCabotDullesMarxIII   Aug-03-08 10:00 AM   #170 
  - And I'd better not get cocky or they'll take me down a peg or three.  KCabotDullesMarxIII   Aug-03-08 02:18 PM   #179 
  - Agree wholeheartedly.  sourmilk   Aug-03-08 10:21 AM   #171 
  - Thom Hartmann just talked about this post  SharonRB   Aug-04-08 01:14 PM   #184 
  - One of Ivins' friends also talked about the fact he had no more money for lawyers . . ..  defendandprotect   Aug-05-08 01:35 PM   #188 

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators

Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC