warren pease
(1000+ posts)
|
Thu Jul-17-08 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #3 |
| 136. That's not the goddamn point... |
 |
The point is that these people and their former employer entered into a contractual agreement -- apparently by mutual consent, not coercion -- and one party unilaterally broke that agreement without seeking or getting the consent of the other.
And despite blatantly welshing on a legally binding contract, it's very unlikely that GM will suffer any consequences at all, even though it's absolutely screwed these people to the wall. That $300 a month isn't going to go very far when these people try to buy medical insurance on the open market as individuals, rather than as members of some made-for-insurance group.
Plus, at retirement age, most of them will have preexisting conditions that exclude them from any standard medical insurance policy. That means they'll have to try and get into one of those private insurer/state-subsidized partnerships that insure high risk clients for obscene monthly premiums, deductibles and copays. Or they can use the ER as their primary care facility -- just like most of those 50 million and climbing uninsured do in this here "greatest country in the world."
Further, the slack the law grants these "fictitious persons" is only comprehensible if you envision a gigantic river of money -- hundreds of millions of dollars of it to be given away by lobbyists and other elements of the corporate bribocracy -- flowing non-stop into the overloaded briefcases of tens of thousands of local, state and national politicians.
In return, these corrupt bastards show their gratitude by giving their corporate employers every damn thing they want -- tax breaks, privatization schemes, de facto monopolies, completely absence of regulatory oversight, freedom to violate any environmental laws that will allow them to chisel another penny's profit by ruining an entire ecosystem. You name it, corporate America gets to violate it... with complete impunity.
Hell, they can even run a massive illegal surveillance and data capturing ring at the behest of spymaster Cheney and get Congress to pass a special law immunizing them for their crimes. That's some representative government they've got. Unfortunately, to represent the corporate interests that enrich them, Congress must also mis-represent the rest of us peasants.
Corporations are pathological by nature, as is any zero-sum entity that encourages stealing, cheating, lying and then denying any responsibility for the damage they do as long as their needs are being met.
So it's not about buying a Chevy or a Honda. It's not about whether US manufacturers are shitty marketers. It's not about whether their products are sexy.
It's about honoring a commitment, putting a corrupt system in place that allows them to just flip off anybody they want any time they want, getting legal cover at all levels of government, and then doing the same damn thing time and again because they're always going to fuck people over if it increases profits and as long as they can get away with it.
That's how corporations are wired, that's what they're in business for and they stopped caring a long time ago about any human consequences -- if they ever cared at all. Kind of like the Bushies in that regard.
wp
|
Shell-shocked GM retirees react: 'This is a knife stab in the back' |
marmar |
Jul-17-08 09:28 AM |
#0 |

Screwn |
DS1 |
Jul-17-08 09:30 AM |
#1 |
 
From the article it sounds like the only retirees who are over 65 |
pampango |
Jul-17-08 09:55 AM |
#34 |
 
National, Single-payer health care would make the whole question moot. |
Tesha |
Jul-17-08 10:21 AM |
#61 |

Retiree will receive an extra $300 for health care per month instead? |
NC_Nurse |
Jul-17-08 09:31 AM |
#2 |
 
Is that "extra" $300 taxable? |
Squatch |
Jul-17-08 09:32 AM |
#4 |
  
I doubt it matters much. You can't get squat for that, Squatch. |
NC_Nurse |
Jul-17-08 09:33 AM |
#7 |
   
Oh, I know... |
Squatch |
Jul-17-08 09:35 AM |
#10 |
  
We are on COBRA temporarily since we're moving - $1100/month! |
NC_Nurse |
Jul-17-08 09:44 AM |
#18 |
  
My neighbors, in their 70's, pay over $900 a month for their supplemental |
OurVotesCount-Ohio |
Jul-17-08 10:26 AM |
#71 |
  
If it is made part of the pension it will be taxable. |
LiberalFighter |
Jul-17-08 09:44 AM |
#17 |
  
pensions are subject to federal tax |
notadmblnd |
Jul-17-08 10:05 AM |
#42 |
  
if they spend it on healthcare |
northzax |
Jul-17-08 03:04 PM |
#125 |
 
No kidding |
high density |
Jul-17-08 03:16 PM |
#128 |

GM is the bad guy here. All the DUers who would "NEVER buy American"? Blameless. nt |
Romulox |
Jul-17-08 09:32 AM |
#3 |
 
I would never buy GM...because their products are shitty. |
Squatch |
Jul-17-08 09:33 AM |
#6 |
  
Exhibit A. |
Romulox |
Jul-17-08 09:37 AM |
#11 |
   
Exhibit B |
Squatch |
Jul-17-08 09:41 AM |
#15 |
  
Your chart shows Chevy beating Acura, Nissan, Subaru, VW, and more in quality |
Romulox |
Jul-17-08 09:45 AM |
#19 |
  
That same chart shows Porsche, Infiniti, Lexus, Mercedes, Toyota, Mercury, Honda, Ford, Jaguar... |
Squatch |
Jul-17-08 09:51 AM |
#29 |
  
Which is a good reason to buy a LEXUS instead of Chevy. But not a NISSAN, Acura or a VW |
Romulox |
Jul-17-08 10:03 AM |
#38 |
  
Dude...give it up. I think it's been thoroughly demonstrated |
Squatch |
Jul-17-08 10:08 AM |
#44 |
  
What nonsense. The JD Power chart you posted shows GM has better quality than most foreign makes |
Romulox |
Jul-17-08 10:13 AM |
#49 |
  
Rom, your attitude is a perfect exemplar of the problem |
Book Lover |
Jul-17-08 11:55 AM |
#97 |
  
None of that was my point. Just pointing out the hypocrisy |
Romulox |
Jul-17-08 01:31 PM |
#102 |
  
American cars are sexy. |
Clark2008 |
Jul-17-08 01:32 PM |
#104 |
  
I agree |
proud2Blib |
Jul-17-08 10:59 AM |
#83 |
  
Really? |
Clark2008 |
Jul-17-08 01:31 PM |
#103 |
  
Some American cars are OK and you cant beat a GM or FORD Pickup in quality and toughness. |
Truth4Justice |
Jul-17-08 03:05 PM |
#126 |
 
We had 2 GM cars (only the Olds remains) |
Kittycat |
Jul-17-08 09:38 AM |
#12 |
  
Buy what you want. But quit trying to pretend that YOUR actions don't hurt US workers. |
Romulox |
Jul-17-08 09:42 AM |
#16 |
   
If US Companies would think of US Citizens Buying Needs, and stop fucking them over... |
Kittycat |
Jul-17-08 09:45 AM |
#20 |
    
Right. You don't owe them anything. And they don't owe YOU anything, either. |
Romulox |
Jul-17-08 09:46 AM |
#21 |
     
Like I said, Read above. |
Kittycat |
Jul-17-08 09:54 AM |
# |
      
I'm glad you enjoy your Honda. You just have no room to complain about GM retiree healthcare. nt |
Romulox |
Jul-17-08 09:59 AM |
#36 |
     
Um, no. A car company owes a decent product in return for tens of thousands of dollars. |
closeupready |
Jul-17-08 10:21 AM |
#62 |
      
Right. Healthcare doesn't come with that. I suggest you complain to Honda. nt |
Romulox |
Jul-17-08 10:24 AM |
#67 |
     
If a corporation made them promises to do something, it is fair to complain when they renege. |
closeupready |
Jul-17-08 10:27 AM |
#72 |
     
But GM does owe their workers. |
sudopod |
Jul-17-08 10:41 AM |
#76 |
     
Sorry - no guilt here. |
Kittycat |
Jul-17-08 10:56 AM |
#82 |
     
Guilt is a word you've used several times. Not me. I just said you aren't owed anything |
Romulox |
Jul-17-08 11:30 AM |
#88 |
     
There is no difference. |
exothermic |
Jul-17-08 10:05 AM |
#41 |
    
Yes, there is a difference. It speaks to the percentage of US content |
Romulox |
Jul-17-08 10:10 AM |
#46 |
    
That is utter nonsensical drivel. No country can manufacture 100% of a car from raw materials. |
exothermic |
Jul-17-08 11:26 AM |
#85 |
    
Umm, the definitions are set out by the FTC. Please read about the subject before you lecture! |
Romulox |
Jul-17-08 11:30 AM |
#87 |
    
I'm curious about your Honda made in Ohio... |
tchunter |
Jul-17-08 01:28 PM |
#101 |
    
Hondas and Toyotas are so ugly. |
Clark2008 |
Jul-17-08 01:35 PM |
#106 |
   
except us & foreign manufacturers are interconnected through |
Hannah Bell |
Jul-17-08 01:43 PM |
#111 |
   
Just so I know whether I'm allowed to feel sympathy... |
LanternWaste |
Jul-17-08 02:02 PM |
#115 |
  
I just sold my 1998 Civic |
Squatch |
Jul-17-08 09:48 AM |
#22 |
   
I still use my 1982 Civic every day. With 240000 miles. |
exothermic |
Jul-17-08 11:28 AM |
#86 |
  
We have one. |
Cobalt Violet |
Jul-17-08 01:34 PM |
#105 |
  
That reminds me, I have an axe that belonged to Abe Lincoln! |
exothermic |
Jul-17-08 02:57 PM |
#122 |
  
My experience with GM cars has been just that, dismal. |
NC_Nurse |
Jul-17-08 09:50 AM |
#27 |
   
Chrysler and GM are two separate companies. |
Romulox |
Jul-17-08 10:04 AM |
#40 |
    
I've had GM's too. Oldsmobile Cutlass, Chevy Cavalier... |
NC_Nurse |
Jul-17-08 10:14 AM |
#50 |
   
Look upthread. JD Powers shows that GM quality is better than most foreign makes. nt |
Romulox |
Jul-17-08 10:16 AM |
#55 |
   
I know, my dad reads Road and Track and Motor Trend - he's a retired |
NC_Nurse |
Jul-17-08 10:23 AM |
#65 |
   
JD Powers says? So what? What does Toby Keith say? Carly Fiorina? |
closeupready |
Jul-17-08 10:24 AM |
#68 |
    
Anecdotal evidence is not meaningful in these sorts of discussions. nt |
Romulox |
Jul-17-08 10:26 AM |
#70 |
     
You may not be interested in anecdotal evidence, but I am. |
closeupready |
Jul-17-08 10:29 AM |
#73 |
    
Anecdotal evidence is not STATISTICALLY meaningful. |
Romulox |
Jul-17-08 11:32 AM |
#89 |
    
OK - my personal experience is that my American car is |
Clark2008 |
Jul-17-08 01:38 PM |
#107 |
   
Didn't you hear? Anecdotes are statistically MEANINGLESS! |
closeupready |
Jul-17-08 01:39 PM |
#108 |
   
That should be better than **some** foreign makes... |
SidDithers |
Jul-17-08 10:35 AM |
#74 |
    
You didn't correct the poster who stated, unequivocally, that GM cars are "shit" |
Romulox |
Jul-17-08 11:35 AM |
#90 |
   
JD Powers scores can be manipulated and I personally don't trust them. |
elehhhhna |
Jul-17-08 01:56 PM |
#113 |
   
I have a newer Chevy with 60,000 miles on it, already had to replace the head gasket |
carlyhippy |
Jul-17-08 07:29 PM |
#133 |
  
yeah |
melm00se |
Jul-17-08 10:20 AM |
#60 |
 
Chevy don't have any cars which interest me. |
DS1 |
Jul-17-08 10:03 AM |
#37 |
  
That's fine. It just leaves you zero room to complain about GM's retiree health plan. nt |
Romulox |
Jul-17-08 10:03 AM |
#39 |
 
I have to buy a company's product before I can complain about it? |
DS1 |
Jul-17-08 10:09 AM |
#45 |
  
You have little moral authority to complain about GM retiree healthcare, if you didn't contribute |
Romulox |
Jul-17-08 10:15 AM |
#51 |
   
Deleted message |
Name removed |
Jul-17-08 10:17 AM |
#56 |
    
Deleted message |
Name removed |
Jul-17-08 10:19 AM |
#57 |
    
I'm beginning to think he is... Because.. |
Kittycat |
Jul-17-08 11:04 AM |
#84 |
   
So if R.J. Reynolds did this, nonsmokers would have no "moral authority"? |
MercutioATC |
Jul-17-08 10:50 AM |
#78 |
  
"getting"? |
Squatch |
Jul-17-08 10:15 AM |
#53 |
 
Profile = Detroit |
DS1 |
Jul-17-08 10:22 AM |
#63 |
 
You know, this post is beyond asinine. |
Romulox |
Jul-17-08 10:23 AM |
#66 |
 
You're not respecting my diverse opinion! |
DS1 |
Jul-17-08 10:25 AM |
#69 |
 
*I* didn't accuse you of having a nefarious scheme based on where you live, though... |
Romulox |
Jul-17-08 11:36 AM |
#92 |
 
At DU we have a "constitutional" (internet-based) right to complain about US corporations. |
pampango |
Jul-17-08 10:19 AM |
#58 |
  
Point well taken. I was talking about a logical/moral "right" to complain. |
Romulox |
Jul-17-08 10:22 AM |
#64 |
 
You shouldn't talk about things that you plainly do not understand. |
ForrestGump |
Jul-18-08 01:34 AM |
#138 |
 
So if someone doesn't buy a GM POS they have no right to comment? |
sudopod |
Jul-17-08 10:43 AM |
#77 |
 
They have no right to demand GM supply people healthcare, imo. nt |
Romulox |
Jul-17-08 11:37 AM |
#93 |
 
They absolutely do considering what GM has done with it's profits |
Indenturedebtor |
Jul-17-08 03:01 PM |
#123 |
 
Maybe GM should create better more feul efficient vehicles |
fascisthunter |
Jul-17-08 10:12 AM |
#48 |
 
GM is the bad guy, and so are people who buy foreign cars |
Echos Myron |
Jul-17-08 10:36 AM |
#75 |
 
I always buy pro-union merchandise |
mdmc |
Jul-17-08 10:55 AM |
#81 |
  
Unions represent workers, not corporations. nt |
Romulox |
Jul-17-08 11:38 AM |
#94 |
 
Even if every American would have bought a GM product |
carlyhippy |
Jul-17-08 07:42 PM |
#134 |
 
Much of this is on the shoulders of GMAC, if I'm not mistaken. |
flvegan |
Jul-17-08 07:46 PM |
#135 |
 
That's not the goddamn point... |
warren pease |
Jul-17-08 08:27 PM |
#136 |
 
Between 1993-1998, GM made a profit of $27.5 billion and cut 39,000 hourly jobs. |
Batgirl |
Jul-17-08 09:38 PM |
#137 |

Wow. This is bad. I was counting on them to be an ally in the single payer fight. |
dkf |
Jul-17-08 09:32 AM |
#5 |
 
Seems like to me this happening would make them allies in the single payer fight. |
raccoon |
Jul-17-08 09:39 AM |
#13 |

The employees yes, but GM seems to have given up the fight. |
dkf |
Jul-17-08 09:49 AM |
#25 |

the employees already have single payer |
northzax |
Jul-17-08 03:03 PM |
#124 |

Heard this yesterday (from a PRO-union) co-worker... |
PassingFair |
Jul-17-08 09:34 AM |
#8 |
 
It has already touched us and likely to affect us more as time goes on. |
LiberalFighter |
Jul-17-08 09:50 AM |
#26 |

Yes! It absolutely has touched us |
Libby2 |
Jul-17-08 09:54 AM |
#33 |

Her father is retired GM union employee. |
PassingFair |
Jul-17-08 10:07 AM |
#43 |

$300 dollars buys you 6 days of healthcare coverage in Maine. |
mainegreen |
Jul-17-08 09:34 AM |
#9 |

I worked for Pontiac Motors for 13 years. |
Sentinel Chicken |
Jul-17-08 09:41 AM |
#14 |
 
I hope you weren't responsible for the Fiero. |
tridim |
Jul-17-08 02:00 PM |
#114 |

No I didn't work on any of those. |
Sentinel Chicken |
Jul-17-08 03:43 PM |
#130 |

Perhaps these retirees will shift their attention, and their anger, |
predfan |
Jul-17-08 09:49 AM |
#23 |

One more reason why Social Security must not be privatized |
malaise |
Jul-17-08 09:49 AM |
#24 |

Maybe now they can find it in their old white guy hearts to vote for a Democrat in November |
BeyondGeography |
Jul-17-08 09:50 AM |
#28 |

Non-union workers' benefits can be taken away without so much as a "by your leave". |
billyoc |
Jul-17-08 09:51 AM |
#30 |

John Deere did this crap too..... |
Oceansaway |
Jul-17-08 09:54 AM |
#31 |

Businesses are realizing the mistake they made in the early '90's |
Not Me |
Jul-17-08 09:54 AM |
#32 |
 
+1 |
Blue_Tires |
Jul-17-08 11:35 AM |
#91 |

I really don't know: how "bad" is Medicare? |
Ilsa |
Jul-17-08 09:59 AM |
#35 |
 
Not bad at all. |
Tracer |
Jul-17-08 10:11 AM |
#47 |
 
Here's what I pay: |
trof |
Jul-17-08 10:16 AM |
#54 |
  
It's not bad, but for some, that's a pretty big expense every month. |
Ilsa |
Jul-17-08 01:23 PM |
#100 |
 
Oh yeah...$135 annual deductible on supplemental. |
trof |
Jul-17-08 10:20 AM |
#59 |

Always the Same Shit.... always screwing the worker |
fascisthunter |
Jul-17-08 10:15 AM |
#52 |

Those retirees just need to vote in more Republickers. |
Opposite Reaction |
Jul-17-08 10:51 AM |
#79 |

Can't they all go on the public dole? |
mdmc |
Jul-17-08 10:53 AM |
#80 |

Once off the books in a group plan...prexisting conditions |
LeftHander |
Jul-17-08 11:41 AM |
#95 |

Is this a great Country, or what? |
Blue State Native |
Jul-17-08 11:43 AM |
#96 |

Yet another stone in Michigan's path to hell. |
knitter4democracy |
Jul-17-08 11:58 AM |
#98 |

Hey Romulox, I have a 2006 Chevy Trail Blazer, am I allowed to complain? |
book_worm |
Jul-17-08 12:00 PM |
#99 |
 
No, because your experience is statistically MEANINGLESS. |
closeupready |
Jul-17-08 01:42 PM |
#110 |

You are being silly. Anecdotal evidence is not meaningful in assessing overall quality. |
Romulox |
Jul-17-08 02:16 PM |
#117 |

I'm being a little silly, but then so were you. But let's set that aside. |
closeupready |
Jul-17-08 02:47 PM |
#119 |

The conversation surrounded the overall quality of the vehicles sold in the US market |
Romulox |
Jul-17-08 02:52 PM |
#120 |

let's just agree to disagree. |
closeupready |
Jul-17-08 03:51 PM |
#132 |

So who can they "buy health care" from if the have a pre-existing condition? SHAME ON GM. nt |
Bluebear |
Jul-17-08 01:40 PM |
#109 |

I have owned GM cars - horrible cars, so its no wonder - yet I still feel bad for the little guy |
TornadoTN |
Jul-17-08 01:49 PM |
#112 |

I wonder how many of these "salaried retirees" are the same people |
Lydia Leftcoast |
Jul-17-08 02:12 PM |
#116 |

Why weren't "health benefits" vested (in the pension plan)? |
SimpleTrend |
Jul-17-08 02:45 PM |
#118 |
 
We're talking white collar here not blue collar. |
Sentinel Chicken |
Jul-17-08 03:46 PM |
#131 |

And the GOP continues to shun Universal health care? |
BushDespiser12 |
Jul-17-08 02:54 PM |
#121 |

This perfectly illustrates the unequal protection under the law... |
ljm2002 |
Jul-17-08 03:11 PM |
#127 |

and it's not just corporations either |
tismyself |
Jul-17-08 03:40 PM |
#129 |