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Reply #136: That's not the goddamn point... [View All]

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warren pease (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jul-17-08 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
136. That's not the goddamn point...
The point is that these people and their former employer entered into a contractual agreement -- apparently by mutual consent, not coercion -- and one party unilaterally broke that agreement without seeking or getting the consent of the other.

And despite blatantly welshing on a legally binding contract, it's very unlikely that GM will suffer any consequences at all, even though it's absolutely screwed these people to the wall. That $300 a month isn't going to go very far when these people try to buy medical insurance on the open market as individuals, rather than as members of some made-for-insurance group.

Plus, at retirement age, most of them will have preexisting conditions that exclude them from any standard medical insurance policy. That means they'll have to try and get into one of those private insurer/state-subsidized partnerships that insure high risk clients for obscene monthly premiums, deductibles and copays. Or they can use the ER as their primary care facility -- just like most of those 50 million and climbing uninsured do in this here "greatest country in the world."

Further, the slack the law grants these "fictitious persons" is only comprehensible if you envision a gigantic river of money -- hundreds of millions of dollars of it to be given away by lobbyists and other elements of the corporate bribocracy -- flowing non-stop into the overloaded briefcases of tens of thousands of local, state and national politicians.

In return, these corrupt bastards show their gratitude by giving their corporate employers every damn thing they want -- tax breaks, privatization schemes, de facto monopolies, completely absence of regulatory oversight, freedom to violate any environmental laws that will allow them to chisel another penny's profit by ruining an entire ecosystem. You name it, corporate America gets to violate it... with complete impunity.

Hell, they can even run a massive illegal surveillance and data capturing ring at the behest of spymaster Cheney and get Congress to pass a special law immunizing them for their crimes. That's some representative government they've got. Unfortunately, to represent the corporate interests that enrich them, Congress must also mis-represent the rest of us peasants.

Corporations are pathological by nature, as is any zero-sum entity that encourages stealing, cheating, lying and then denying any responsibility for the damage they do as long as their needs are being met.

So it's not about buying a Chevy or a Honda. It's not about whether US manufacturers are shitty marketers. It's not about whether their products are sexy.

It's about honoring a commitment, putting a corrupt system in place that allows them to just flip off anybody they want any time they want, getting legal cover at all levels of government, and then doing the same damn thing time and again because they're always going to fuck people over if it increases profits and as long as they can get away with it.

That's how corporations are wired, that's what they're in business for and they stopped caring a long time ago about any human consequences -- if they ever cared at all. Kind of like the Bushies in that regard.


wp
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  Shell-shocked GM retirees react: 'This is a knife stab in the back' marmar  Jul-17-08 09:28 AM   #0 
   Screwn  DS1   Jul-17-08 09:30 AM   #1 
   From the article it sounds like the only retirees who are over 65  pampango   Jul-17-08 09:55 AM   #34 
   National, Single-payer health care would make the whole question moot.  Tesha   Jul-17-08 10:21 AM   #61 
   Retiree will receive an extra $300 for health care per month instead?  NC_Nurse   Jul-17-08 09:31 AM   #2 
   Is that "extra" $300 taxable?  Squatch   Jul-17-08 09:32 AM   #4 
   I doubt it matters much. You can't get squat for that, Squatch.  NC_Nurse   Jul-17-08 09:33 AM   #7 
   Oh, I know...  Squatch   Jul-17-08 09:35 AM   #10 
      We are on COBRA temporarily since we're moving - $1100/month!  NC_Nurse   Jul-17-08 09:44 AM   #18 
         My neighbors, in their 70's, pay over $900 a month for their supplemental  OurVotesCount-Ohio   Jul-17-08 10:26 AM   #71 
   If it is made part of the pension it will be taxable.  LiberalFighter   Jul-17-08 09:44 AM   #17 
   pensions are subject to federal tax  notadmblnd   Jul-17-08 10:05 AM   #42 
   if they spend it on healthcare  northzax   Jul-17-08 03:04 PM   #125 
   No kidding  high density   Jul-17-08 03:16 PM   #128 
   GM is the bad guy here. All the DUers who would "NEVER buy American"? Blameless. nt  Romulox   Jul-17-08 09:32 AM   #3 
   I would never buy GM...because their products are shitty.  Squatch   Jul-17-08 09:33 AM   #6 
   Exhibit A.  Romulox   Jul-17-08 09:37 AM   #11 
   Exhibit B  Squatch   Jul-17-08 09:41 AM   #15 
      Your chart shows Chevy beating Acura, Nissan, Subaru, VW, and more in quality  Romulox   Jul-17-08 09:45 AM   #19 
         That same chart shows Porsche, Infiniti, Lexus, Mercedes, Toyota, Mercury, Honda, Ford, Jaguar...  Squatch   Jul-17-08 09:51 AM   #29 
            Which is a good reason to buy a LEXUS instead of Chevy. But not a NISSAN, Acura or a VW  Romulox   Jul-17-08 10:03 AM   #38 
               Dude...give it up. I think it's been thoroughly demonstrated  Squatch   Jul-17-08 10:08 AM   #44 
                  What nonsense. The JD Power chart you posted shows GM has better quality than most foreign makes  Romulox   Jul-17-08 10:13 AM   #49 
                     Rom, your attitude is a perfect exemplar of the problem  Book Lover   Jul-17-08 11:55 AM   #97 
                        None of that was my point. Just pointing out the hypocrisy  Romulox   Jul-17-08 01:31 PM   #102 
                        American cars are sexy.  Clark2008   Jul-17-08 01:32 PM   #104 
   I agree  proud2Blib   Jul-17-08 10:59 AM   #83 
   Really?  Clark2008   Jul-17-08 01:31 PM   #103 
   Some American cars are OK and you cant beat a GM or FORD Pickup in quality and toughness.  Truth4Justice   Jul-17-08 03:05 PM   #126 
   We had 2 GM cars (only the Olds remains)  Kittycat   Jul-17-08 09:38 AM   #12 
   Buy what you want. But quit trying to pretend that YOUR actions don't hurt US workers.  Romulox   Jul-17-08 09:42 AM   #16 
   If US Companies would think of US Citizens Buying Needs, and stop fucking them over...  Kittycat   Jul-17-08 09:45 AM   #20 
   Right. You don't owe them anything. And they don't owe YOU anything, either.  Romulox   Jul-17-08 09:46 AM   #21 
   Like I said, Read above.  Kittycat   Jul-17-08 09:54 AM   # 
   I'm glad you enjoy your Honda. You just have no room to complain about GM retiree healthcare. nt  Romulox   Jul-17-08 09:59 AM   #36 
      Um, no. A car company owes a decent product in return for tens of thousands of dollars.  closeupready   Jul-17-08 10:21 AM   #62 
      Right. Healthcare doesn't come with that. I suggest you complain to Honda. nt  Romulox   Jul-17-08 10:24 AM   #67 
         If a corporation made them promises to do something, it is fair to complain when they renege.  closeupready   Jul-17-08 10:27 AM   #72 
      But GM does owe their workers.  sudopod   Jul-17-08 10:41 AM   #76 
      Sorry - no guilt here.  Kittycat   Jul-17-08 10:56 AM   #82 
         Guilt is a word you've used several times. Not me. I just said you aren't owed anything  Romulox   Jul-17-08 11:30 AM   #88 
   There is no difference.  exothermic   Jul-17-08 10:05 AM   #41 
      Yes, there is a difference. It speaks to the percentage of US content  Romulox   Jul-17-08 10:10 AM   #46 
         That is utter nonsensical drivel. No country can manufacture 100% of a car from raw materials.  exothermic   Jul-17-08 11:26 AM   #85 
            Umm, the definitions are set out by the FTC. Please read about the subject before you lecture!  Romulox   Jul-17-08 11:30 AM   #87 
   I'm curious about your Honda made in Ohio...  tchunter   Jul-17-08 01:28 PM   #101 
   Hondas and Toyotas are so ugly.  Clark2008   Jul-17-08 01:35 PM   #106 
   except us & foreign manufacturers are interconnected through  Hannah Bell   Jul-17-08 01:43 PM   #111 
   Just so I know whether I'm allowed to feel sympathy...  LanternWaste   Jul-17-08 02:02 PM   #115 
   I just sold my 1998 Civic  Squatch   Jul-17-08 09:48 AM   #22 
   I still use my 1982 Civic every day. With 240000 miles.  exothermic   Jul-17-08 11:28 AM   #86 
      We have one.  Cobalt Violet   Jul-17-08 01:34 PM   #105 
         That reminds me, I have an axe that belonged to Abe Lincoln!  exothermic   Jul-17-08 02:57 PM   #122 
   My experience with GM cars has been just that, dismal.  NC_Nurse   Jul-17-08 09:50 AM   #27 
   Chrysler and GM are two separate companies.  Romulox   Jul-17-08 10:04 AM   #40 
   I've had GM's too. Oldsmobile Cutlass, Chevy Cavalier...  NC_Nurse   Jul-17-08 10:14 AM   #50 
      Look upthread. JD Powers shows that GM quality is better than most foreign makes. nt  Romulox   Jul-17-08 10:16 AM   #55 
         I know, my dad reads Road and Track and Motor Trend - he's a retired  NC_Nurse   Jul-17-08 10:23 AM   #65 
         JD Powers says? So what? What does Toby Keith say? Carly Fiorina?  closeupready   Jul-17-08 10:24 AM   #68 
         Anecdotal evidence is not meaningful in these sorts of discussions. nt  Romulox   Jul-17-08 10:26 AM   #70 
         You may not be interested in anecdotal evidence, but I am.  closeupready   Jul-17-08 10:29 AM   #73 
            Anecdotal evidence is not STATISTICALLY meaningful.  Romulox   Jul-17-08 11:32 AM   #89 
         OK - my personal experience is that my American car is  Clark2008   Jul-17-08 01:38 PM   #107 
            Didn't you hear? Anecdotes are statistically MEANINGLESS!  closeupready   Jul-17-08 01:39 PM   #108 
         That should be better than **some** foreign makes...  SidDithers   Jul-17-08 10:35 AM   #74 
         You didn't correct the poster who stated, unequivocally, that GM cars are "shit"  Romulox   Jul-17-08 11:35 AM   #90 
         JD Powers scores can be manipulated and I personally don't trust them.  elehhhhna   Jul-17-08 01:56 PM   #113 
   I have a newer Chevy with 60,000 miles on it, already had to replace the head gasket  carlyhippy   Jul-17-08 07:29 PM   #133 
   yeah  melm00se   Jul-17-08 10:20 AM   #60 
   Chevy don't have any cars which interest me.  DS1   Jul-17-08 10:03 AM   #37 
   That's fine. It just leaves you zero room to complain about GM's retiree health plan. nt  Romulox   Jul-17-08 10:03 AM   #39 
      I have to buy a company's product before I can complain about it?  DS1   Jul-17-08 10:09 AM   #45 
      You have little moral authority to complain about GM retiree healthcare, if you didn't contribute  Romulox   Jul-17-08 10:15 AM   #51 
      Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-17-08 10:17 AM   #56 
      Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-17-08 10:19 AM   #57 
      I'm beginning to think he is... Because..  Kittycat   Jul-17-08 11:04 AM   #84 
      So if R.J. Reynolds did this, nonsmokers would have no "moral authority"?  MercutioATC   Jul-17-08 10:50 AM   #78 
      "getting"?  Squatch   Jul-17-08 10:15 AM   #53 
         Profile = Detroit  DS1   Jul-17-08 10:22 AM   #63 
            You know, this post is beyond asinine.  Romulox   Jul-17-08 10:23 AM   #66 
               You're not respecting my diverse opinion!  DS1   Jul-17-08 10:25 AM   #69 
                  *I* didn't accuse you of having a nefarious scheme based on where you live, though...  Romulox   Jul-17-08 11:36 AM   #92 
      At DU we have a "constitutional" (internet-based) right to complain about US corporations.  pampango   Jul-17-08 10:19 AM   #58 
      Point well taken. I was talking about a logical/moral "right" to complain.  Romulox   Jul-17-08 10:22 AM   #64 
         You shouldn't talk about things that you plainly do not understand.  ForrestGump   Jul-18-08 01:34 AM   #138 
      So if someone doesn't buy a GM POS they have no right to comment?  sudopod   Jul-17-08 10:43 AM   #77 
         They have no right to demand GM supply people healthcare, imo. nt  Romulox   Jul-17-08 11:37 AM   #93 
            They absolutely do considering what GM has done with it's profits  Indenturedebtor   Jul-17-08 03:01 PM   #123 
   Maybe GM should create better more feul efficient vehicles  fascisthunter   Jul-17-08 10:12 AM   #48 
   GM is the bad guy, and so are people who buy foreign cars  Echos Myron   Jul-17-08 10:36 AM   #75 
   I always buy pro-union merchandise  mdmc   Jul-17-08 10:55 AM   #81 
   Unions represent workers, not corporations. nt  Romulox   Jul-17-08 11:38 AM   #94 
   Even if every American would have bought a GM product  carlyhippy   Jul-17-08 07:42 PM   #134 
   Much of this is on the shoulders of GMAC, if I'm not mistaken.  flvegan   Jul-17-08 07:46 PM   #135 
   That's not the goddamn point...  warren pease   Jul-17-08 08:27 PM   #136 
   Between 1993-1998, GM made a profit of $27.5 billion and cut 39,000 hourly jobs.  Batgirl   Jul-17-08 09:38 PM   #137 
   Wow. This is bad. I was counting on them to be an ally in the single payer fight.  dkf   Jul-17-08 09:32 AM   #5 
   Seems like to me this happening would make them allies in the single payer fight.  raccoon   Jul-17-08 09:39 AM   #13 
      The employees yes, but GM seems to have given up the fight.  dkf   Jul-17-08 09:49 AM   #25 
      the employees already have single payer  northzax   Jul-17-08 03:03 PM   #124 
   Heard this yesterday (from a PRO-union) co-worker...  PassingFair   Jul-17-08 09:34 AM   #8 
   It has already touched us and likely to affect us more as time goes on.  LiberalFighter   Jul-17-08 09:50 AM   #26 
      Yes! It absolutely has touched us  Libby2   Jul-17-08 09:54 AM   #33 
         Her father is retired GM union employee.  PassingFair   Jul-17-08 10:07 AM   #43 
   $300 dollars buys you 6 days of healthcare coverage in Maine.  mainegreen   Jul-17-08 09:34 AM   #9 
   I worked for Pontiac Motors for 13 years.  Sentinel Chicken   Jul-17-08 09:41 AM   #14 
   I hope you weren't responsible for the Fiero.  tridim   Jul-17-08 02:00 PM   #114 
      No I didn't work on any of those.  Sentinel Chicken   Jul-17-08 03:43 PM   #130 
   Perhaps these retirees will shift their attention, and their anger,  predfan   Jul-17-08 09:49 AM   #23 
   One more reason why Social Security must not be privatized  malaise   Jul-17-08 09:49 AM   #24 
   Maybe now they can find it in their old white guy hearts to vote for a Democrat in November  BeyondGeography   Jul-17-08 09:50 AM   #28 
   Non-union workers' benefits can be taken away without so much as a "by your leave".  billyoc   Jul-17-08 09:51 AM   #30 
   John Deere did this crap too.....  Oceansaway   Jul-17-08 09:54 AM   #31 
   Businesses are realizing the mistake they made in the early '90's  Not Me   Jul-17-08 09:54 AM   #32 
   +1  Blue_Tires   Jul-17-08 11:35 AM   #91 
   I really don't know: how "bad" is Medicare?  Ilsa   Jul-17-08 09:59 AM   #35 
   Not bad at all.  Tracer   Jul-17-08 10:11 AM   #47 
   Here's what I pay:  trof   Jul-17-08 10:16 AM   #54 
   It's not bad, but for some, that's a pretty big expense every month.  Ilsa   Jul-17-08 01:23 PM   #100 
   Oh yeah...$135 annual deductible on supplemental.  trof   Jul-17-08 10:20 AM   #59 
   Always the Same Shit.... always screwing the worker  fascisthunter   Jul-17-08 10:15 AM   #52 
   Those retirees just need to vote in more Republickers.  Opposite Reaction   Jul-17-08 10:51 AM   #79 
   Can't they all go on the public dole?  mdmc   Jul-17-08 10:53 AM   #80 
   Once off the books in a group plan...prexisting conditions  LeftHander   Jul-17-08 11:41 AM   #95 
   Is this a great Country, or what?  Blue State Native   Jul-17-08 11:43 AM   #96 
   Yet another stone in Michigan's path to hell.  knitter4democracy   Jul-17-08 11:58 AM   #98 
   Hey Romulox, I have a 2006 Chevy Trail Blazer, am I allowed to complain?  book_worm   Jul-17-08 12:00 PM   #99 
   No, because your experience is statistically MEANINGLESS.  closeupready   Jul-17-08 01:42 PM   #110 
      You are being silly. Anecdotal evidence is not meaningful in assessing overall quality.  Romulox   Jul-17-08 02:16 PM   #117 
         I'm being a little silly, but then so were you. But let's set that aside.  closeupready   Jul-17-08 02:47 PM   #119 
            The conversation surrounded the overall quality of the vehicles sold in the US market  Romulox   Jul-17-08 02:52 PM   #120 
               let's just agree to disagree.  closeupready   Jul-17-08 03:51 PM   #132 
   So who can they "buy health care" from if the have a pre-existing condition? SHAME ON GM. nt  Bluebear   Jul-17-08 01:40 PM   #109 
   I have owned GM cars - horrible cars, so its no wonder - yet I still feel bad for the little guy  TornadoTN   Jul-17-08 01:49 PM   #112 
   I wonder how many of these "salaried retirees" are the same people  Lydia Leftcoast   Jul-17-08 02:12 PM   #116 
   Why weren't "health benefits" vested (in the pension plan)?  SimpleTrend   Jul-17-08 02:45 PM   #118 
   We're talking white collar here not blue collar.  Sentinel Chicken   Jul-17-08 03:46 PM   #131 
   And the GOP continues to shun Universal health care?  BushDespiser12   Jul-17-08 02:54 PM   #121 
   This perfectly illustrates the unequal protection under the law...  ljm2002   Jul-17-08 03:11 PM   #127 
      and it's not just corporations either  tismyself   Jul-17-08 03:40 PM   #129 
 

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