| 85. to murder someone as a penalty for murder is wrong |
|
what message does that send?
I've never understood the logic behind the death penalty, other than it gives the state the "right" to kill it's own subjects.
To want to expand the state's "right" to murder is incomprehensible to me, and "disconcerting" barely covers how I feel about Obama's reaction to the Supreme Court ruling.
|
| -I was raped as a child and I have something to say to the Supreme Court: |
bertha katzenengel |
Jun-26-08 07:19 AM |
#0 |
 -
State-sanctioned Murder is always wrong. |
tekisui |
Jun-26-08 07:21 AM |
#1 |
  -
the OP has guts beyond guts and a conscience that is an example |
roguevalley |
Jun-26-08 02:25 PM |
#139 |
| -
Thank you for your post. |
zanne |
Jun-26-08 07:22 AM |
#2 |
| -
k&r |
zanne |
Jun-26-08 07:23 AM |
#3 |
| -
Agree. |
ananda |
Jun-26-08 07:24 AM |
#4 |
| -
If anybody Obama should know better |
NNN0LHI |
Jun-26-08 07:26 AM |
#5 |
| -
He did surprise me |
malaise |
Jun-26-08 07:28 AM |
#7 |
| -
That's why their Governor put a morotorium on executions. |
OmmmSweetOmmm |
Jun-26-08 07:36 AM |
#11 |
| -
A Republican governor no less |
NNN0LHI |
Jun-26-08 08:16 AM |
#25 |
| -
republican governor with blood on his own hands and |
mopinko |
Jun-26-08 08:43 AM |
#37 |
| -
It's the demagoguery. |
redqueen |
Jun-26-08 12:11 PM |
#98 |
| -
yes, that's how I'm looking at it. No one is interested in nuances and logistical nightmares, |
Iris |
Jun-26-08 12:24 PM |
#107 |
| -
Exactly... it's *nothing* to do with the child, or justice. |
redqueen |
Jun-26-08 12:27 PM |
#110 |
| -
Oh absolutely - no one should EVER ask a child to put someone (many times family members) to death. |
helderheid |
Jun-26-08 02:58 PM |
#146 |
| -
Yep. He has to avoid a Dukakis 'if your wife was murdered' question |
NCevilDUer |
Jun-26-08 02:34 PM |
#142 |
| -
yep. I was thinking the same thing. |
Iris |
Jun-26-08 03:25 PM |
#157 |
| -
From what I understand some victims' rights groups support this decision. |
Richardo |
Jun-26-08 07:28 AM |
#6 |
| -
From an interview I saw with a victim |
subliminable |
Jun-26-08 07:49 AM |
#15 |
| -
Yes, this was a very interesting perspective on the matter..... |
timeforarevolution |
Jun-26-08 07:53 AM |
#16 |
| -
An excellent point |
TechBear_Seattle |
Jun-26-08 08:15 AM |
#24 |
| -
I think their reasons are moral. |
Iris |
Jun-26-08 12:26 PM |
#109 |
| -
I do too - just not the *same* moral reasons. |
Richardo |
Jun-26-08 01:43 PM |
#126 |
| -
I cannot even believe that there was such a sentence was passed, let alone be decided by Supremes. |
OmmmSweetOmmm |
Jun-26-08 07:29 AM |
#8 |
| -
"telling the people that murder on some level is ok" |
subliminable |
Jun-26-08 08:05 AM |
#20 |
| -
Some murder has always been okay |
Chulanowa |
Jun-26-08 11:05 AM |
#67 |
| -
i sometimes think |
druidity33 |
Jun-26-08 07:29 AM |
#9 |
| -
I agree with you... |
TwoSparkles |
Jun-26-08 07:33 AM |
#10 |
| -
I agrree , captial punishment is wrong. Period. |
bowens43 |
Jun-26-08 07:36 AM |
#12 |
| -
But... |
gorfle |
Jun-26-08 08:10 PM |
#178 |
| -
thank you for your courage to speak out on this |
wellstone dem |
Jun-26-08 07:36 AM |
#13 |
| -
When you die, I'm grabbing onto the edge of your skirt, |
The Backlash Cometh |
Jun-26-08 07:42 AM |
#14 |
| -
TBC, that's about the nicest thing |
bertha katzenengel |
Jun-26-08 08:05 AM |
#21 |
| -
I'm so sorry that happened to you, Bertha. |
raccoon |
Jun-26-08 07:58 AM |
#17 |
| -
that book left me outraged |
bertha katzenengel |
Jun-26-08 08:04 AM |
#19 |
| -
thou shalt not kill......no asterik...no 'state' exemptions |
spanone |
Jun-26-08 08:03 AM |
#18 |
| -
Thou shalt not kill |
AlbertCat |
Jun-26-08 12:15 PM |
#101 |
| -
what concerns me is the inability to understand |
oscarmitre |
Jun-26-08 08:13 AM |
#22 |
| -
Another excellent point |
TechBear_Seattle |
Jun-26-08 08:18 AM |
#26 |
| -
DUers have such a punishment fetish that they don't understand the utility aspect |
alcibiades_mystery |
Jun-26-08 08:20 AM |
#28 |
| -
SOME DUers. It's like the Moral Majoity, which is neither. |
Commie Pinko Dirtbag |
Jun-26-08 11:47 AM |
#80 |
| -
yes, some is right. So is loud. It's surprising to see them in any case. n/t |
Iris |
Jun-26-08 02:03 PM |
#131 |
| -
I wonder how effectively a sentence prevents violent crime like rape/murder |
crikkett |
Jun-26-08 08:37 AM |
#34 |
| -
I think studies have shown |
marions ghost |
Jun-26-08 10:22 AM |
#51 |
| -
States with the death pealty have much higher murder rates |
Jackpine Radical |
Jun-27-08 04:56 PM |
#213 |
| -
Some people just lose all reason... |
redqueen |
Jun-26-08 12:15 PM |
#100 |
| -
If It's Morally Wrong To Kill Anyone |
Weezer |
Jun-26-08 08:14 AM |
#23 |
| -
I believe it was Carlin also who said, |
TechBear_Seattle |
Jun-26-08 08:19 AM |
#27 |
| -
Welcome to DU. |
redqueen |
Jun-26-08 12:16 PM |
#102 |
| -
death penalty for child rapists |
whathehell |
Jun-26-08 08:23 AM |
#29 |
| -
That's a very good point. |
EOTE |
Jun-26-08 08:42 AM |
#36 |
| -
Exactly! The child rapist would just kill the child, if there was a Death Penalty. |
Breeze54 |
Jun-26-08 09:02 AM |
#42 |
| -
If you are fucked enough in the head to rape a small child.. |
snooper2 |
Jun-26-08 09:53 AM |
#46 |
| -
Don't hang your hat on that. |
Tandalayo_Scheisskopf |
Jun-26-08 02:23 PM |
#135 |
| -
Selection bias |
geekdem |
Jun-26-08 05:54 PM |
#169 |
| -
I tried arguing this an another thread |
Jakes Progress |
Jun-26-08 03:17 PM |
#152 |
| -
I was not, Bertha, but I totally agree with you. |
WakeMeUp |
Jun-26-08 08:26 AM |
#30 |
| -
I am depressed because this is the country we live in, a country that WANTS to kill criminals |
tuggle |
Jun-26-08 08:29 AM |
#31 |
| -
Thank you, BK |
Dogtown |
Jun-26-08 08:30 AM |
#32 |
| -
child rapists deserve to die, but GOVERNMENTS DO NOT DESERVE THE POWER TO KILL THEIR SUBJECTS |
unblock |
Jun-26-08 08:30 AM |
#33 |
| -
Thanks, and more power to you |
crikkett |
Jun-26-08 08:38 AM |
#35 |
| -
Thank you for the post. I agree. |
DesertRat |
Jun-26-08 08:47 AM |
#38 |
| -
Thank you, bertha. |
PeaceNikki |
Jun-26-08 08:49 AM |
#39 |
| -
iirc, death used to be the punishment for rape in many states. just as folks |
mopinko |
Jun-26-08 08:51 AM |
#40 |
| -
Death Penalty is wrong. |
riverlady |
Jun-26-08 08:59 AM |
#41 |
| -
Worse than death |
HelenWheels |
Jun-26-08 09:27 AM |
#43 |
| -
interesting point |
Apollo11 |
Jun-26-08 12:19 PM |
#104 |
| -
Thank you Bertha. And one thing many people AREN'T taking into |
Lorien |
Jun-26-08 09:46 AM |
#44 |
| -
Rabid Human Beings |
snooper2 |
Jun-26-08 09:48 AM |
#45 |
| -
"Put down" -- ??? |
bertha katzenengel |
Jun-26-08 10:12 AM |
#47 |
| -
wiped from existence.. |
snooper2 |
Jun-26-08 10:15 AM |
#48 |
| -
Some humans have not evolved to strive for the end of barbarism. |
bertha katzenengel |
Jun-26-08 10:26 AM |
#52 |
| -
Because some of the 310 million people here are sick fuckers |
snooper2 |
Jun-26-08 10:35 AM |
#56 |
| -
Perhaps you should examine the health of your own psyche, |
MadHound |
Jun-26-08 10:47 AM |
#61 |
| -
DNA evidence will prove they are guilty.. |
snooper2 |
Jun-26-08 10:54 AM |
#64 |
| -
Stop that shit right now, OK! |
MadHound |
Jun-26-08 11:08 AM |
#70 |
| -
See, that's the difference between you and me |
snooper2 |
Jun-26-08 12:27 PM |
#111 |
| -
You didn't address the last point. |
ieoeja |
Jun-26-08 02:31 PM |
#141 |
| -
it's sounds like this is about vengeance |
fascisthunter |
Jun-26-08 07:30 PM |
#177 |
| -
Death penalty |
cesar008 |
Jun-26-08 02:45 PM |
#143 |
| -
nah, you just think killing can be justified. |
iamthebandfanman |
Jun-26-08 03:58 PM |
#163 |
| -
it doesn't help society to kill insane people. |
marions ghost |
Jun-26-08 11:13 AM |
#71 |
| -
Satisfy the morbid, raging bystanders' blood-lust. |
redqueen |
Jun-26-08 12:19 PM |
#103 |
| -
and that doesn't strike you, in any way shape or form |
northzax |
Jun-26-08 12:20 PM |
#105 |
| -
mentally retarded or insane are one thing... |
snooper2 |
Jun-26-08 12:29 PM |
#113 |
| -
by definition, maybe not |
northzax |
Jun-26-08 12:50 PM |
#117 |
| -
Hmmm... No |
Gilligan |
Jun-27-08 04:39 PM |
#212 |
| -
might feel like justice, |
marions ghost |
Jun-26-08 10:29 AM |
#54 |
| -
Check my post above.. |
snooper2 |
Jun-26-08 10:38 AM |
#57 |
| -
Take a look at this map. |
Commie Pinko Dirtbag |
Jun-26-08 11:45 AM |
#78 |
| -
And if they're wrongly convicted? You're OK with murdering innocent people? (nt) |
redqueen |
Jun-26-08 12:11 PM |
#97 |
| -
I sure the hell am not OK with murdering innocent people... |
No DUplicitous DUpe |
Jun-26-08 06:59 PM |
#176 |
| -
And just who would get to decide who gets murdered? |
varkam |
Jun-26-08 12:57 PM |
#119 |
| -
i dont think dogs should be put down |
iamthebandfanman |
Jun-26-08 03:57 PM |
#162 |
| -
Sadly, Bertha, you are far from alone. |
Blue_In_AK |
Jun-26-08 10:18 AM |
#49 |
| -
Obama's Statement Is Very Depressing |
ComtesseDeSpair |
Jun-26-08 10:20 AM |
#50 |
| -
You mean the "pro life before birth / pro death post birth" voters... |
ForeignSpectator |
Jun-26-08 01:20 PM |
#122 |
| -
he's pandering for votes |
Skittles |
Jun-26-08 02:53 PM |
#145 |
| -
The court was wrong. |
janesez |
Jun-26-08 10:28 AM |
#53 |
| -
Bertha, you are my hero. |
PeterU |
Jun-26-08 10:31 AM |
#55 |
| -
My reply is that things are not always black/white - think about how we |
TBF |
Jun-26-08 10:42 AM |
#58 |
| -
What about the Catholic Priests? |
TNOE |
Jun-26-08 10:44 AM |
#59 |
| -
I agree with you |
MonkeyFunk |
Jun-26-08 10:47 AM |
#60 |
| -
Deleted message |
Name removed |
Jun-26-08 11:49 AM |
#81 |
| -
What the fuck kind of statement is that? |
janesez |
Jun-26-08 11:54 AM |
#84 |
| -
I call 'em as I sees 'em. |
Commie Pinko Dirtbag |
Jun-26-08 11:56 AM |
#86 |
| -
wow... thumbs Up to You |
fascisthunter |
Jun-26-08 10:49 AM |
#62 |
| -
I wasn't raped, but I did go through some rather minor sexual abuse |
sleebarker |
Jun-26-08 10:51 AM |
#63 |
| -
Thank you for taking a stand. I am standing with you. |
SalviaBlue |
Jun-26-08 11:02 AM |
#65 |
| -
I used to agree, but not any more |
northernlights |
Jun-26-08 11:02 AM |
#66 |
| -
Yes, but... |
ComtesseDeSpair |
Jun-26-08 11:06 AM |
#68 |
| -
And since most children who are abused are abused by someone they know, often times family members, |
Iris |
Jun-26-08 11:57 AM |
#87 |
| -
You agree with Obama on "euthanasia?" Or you agree with him on "cruel and unusual |
bertha katzenengel |
Jun-26-08 12:28 PM |
#112 |
| -
Despite the propaganda that is usually presented most sex offenders *do not* repeat the offense |
justaregularperson |
Jun-27-08 12:43 AM |
#190 |
| -
i agree nt |
lionesspriyanka |
Jun-26-08 11:07 AM |
#69 |
| -
There are people who have been unjustly accused of child molestation |
El Fuego |
Jun-26-08 11:27 AM |
#72 |
| -
I don't like the death penalty for mixed reasons |
glitch |
Jun-26-08 11:28 AM |
#73 |
| -
I share more than your view on capital punishment- |
Bluerthanblue |
Jun-26-08 11:36 AM |
#74 |
| -
Laws shouldn't be based on emotion.. |
skooooo |
Jun-26-08 11:40 AM |
#75 |
| -
Excellent point. People who do that would be just as likely to treat these same children as adults |
Iris |
Jun-26-08 11:52 AM |
#82 |
| -
My opinion isn't based on emotion. |
bertha katzenengel |
Jun-26-08 01:43 PM |
#125 |
| -
If they ARE guilty.. |
penndragon69 |
Jun-26-08 11:43 AM |
#76 |
| -
Why should I house and feed a criminal in my own home when I pay taxes to keep them in jail? |
Iris |
Jun-26-08 11:53 AM |
#83 |
| -
And this statement is...? |
LanternWaste |
Jun-26-08 12:03 PM |
#94 |
| -
Should be willing to house and feed . . . tell me why. |
bertha katzenengel |
Jun-26-08 12:25 PM |
#108 |
| -
AS i expected.. |
penndragon69 |
Jun-26-08 04:11 PM |
#165 |
| -
Don't forget hanged and branded! |
justaregularperson |
Jun-27-08 12:53 AM |
#191 |
| -
Your logic is poor. Your fallacies are two-fold. If you can stop shouting "bullshit," |
bertha katzenengel |
Jun-27-08 09:07 AM |
#207 |
| -
Read War Against the Weak by Edwin Black. You sound very much |
jwirr |
Jun-26-08 06:15 PM |
#170 |
| -
absolutely Bertha! thanks for posting this... |
FarceOfNature |
Jun-26-08 11:44 AM |
#77 |
| -
What would Jesus Do? |
Hail Lama |
Jun-26-08 11:47 AM |
#79 |
| -
to murder someone as a penalty for murder is wrong |
paulk |
Jun-26-08 11:56 AM |
#85 |
| -
I agree with you |
noonwitch |
Jun-26-08 11:58 AM |
#88 |
| -
In a black & White case Im all for the Death death penalty |
BigD_95 |
Jun-26-08 11:59 AM |
#89 |
| -
that is truly sickening. n/t |
Iris |
Jun-26-08 12:00 PM |
#92 |
| -
I imagine some people give much more weight to a personal blood-lust... |
LanternWaste |
Jun-26-08 12:07 PM |
#95 |
| -
A confession isn't always proof of guilt. |
bertha katzenengel |
Jun-26-08 12:23 PM |
#106 |
| -
Exactly |
justaregularperson |
Jun-27-08 12:58 AM |
#192 |
| -
Thanks so much for your post. |
cbayer |
Jun-26-08 11:59 AM |
#90 |
| -
I agree with you. |
undeterred |
Jun-26-08 11:59 AM |
#91 |
| -
Hear hear! |
EstimatedProphet |
Jun-26-08 12:02 PM |
#93 |
| -
Hear hear, Bertha! |
redqueen |
Jun-26-08 12:10 PM |
#96 |
| -
Death Penalty is a slippery slope |
windoe |
Jun-26-08 12:13 PM |
#99 |
| -
however |
paulstylos |
Jun-26-08 12:34 PM |
#114 |
| -
Thank you, Bertha. |
Jackpine Radical |
Jun-26-08 12:38 PM |
#115 |
| -
I so agree with you, Bertha. |
Maat |
Jun-26-08 12:42 PM |
#116 |
| -
I love you, Bertha! |
PelosiFan |
Jun-26-08 12:54 PM |
#118 |
| -
And I love you, PF. |
bertha katzenengel |
Jun-27-08 08:19 AM |
#204 |
| -
there are always cases where someone |
BigD_95 |
Jun-26-08 01:13 PM |
#120 |
| -
"you kill, you kick, you piss" -- WTF? |
bertha katzenengel |
Jun-26-08 01:37 PM |
#124 |
| -
N/A |
BigD_95 |
Jun-26-08 01:15 PM |
#121 |
| -
Thanks for sharing something so difficult to talk about |
libodem |
Jun-26-08 01:21 PM |
#123 |
| -
You're absolutely right, Bertha. |
oktoberain |
Jun-26-08 01:49 PM |
#127 |
| -
Death Penalty never bothered me until I heard what Matthew Shepard's father said.... |
LynneSin |
Jun-26-08 01:52 PM |
#128 |
| -
Not to mention that some of the people who would love to see some killers get the death penalty, |
Iris |
Jun-26-08 02:07 PM |
#132 |
| -
Don't sign me up for that team |
LynneSin |
Jun-26-08 03:46 PM |
#159 |
| -
I agree with you and I commend you for thinking this through even though |
Cleita |
Jun-26-08 01:54 PM |
#129 |
| -
This is one the SC got right, IMO -- and courageous of you -- |
defendandprotect |
Jun-26-08 01:59 PM |
#130 |
| -
I am against the death penalty |
awoke_in_2003 |
Jun-26-08 02:19 PM |
#133 |
| -
Any child abuse pushes me damned close, too. |
bertha katzenengel |
Jun-27-08 08:14 AM |
#203 |
| -
Your strength, your beauty moves me to tears. |
duhneece |
Jun-26-08 02:21 PM |
#134 |
| -
death penalty should exist but not expanded |
PurpleStateVoter |
Jun-26-08 02:23 PM |
#136 |
| -
Great post, Bertha |
enigmatic |
Jun-26-08 02:25 PM |
#137 |
| -
I agree totally |
MrScorpio |
Jun-26-08 02:25 PM |
#138 |
| -
I used to be against the Death penalty |
BigD_95 |
Jun-26-08 02:27 PM |
#140 |
| -
Thanks for your post.. |
rainlillie |
Jun-26-08 02:48 PM |
#144 |
| -
I can't. |
bertha katzenengel |
Jun-26-08 03:03 PM |
#147 |
| -
My predator |
rainlillie |
Jun-26-08 03:13 PM |
#150 |
| -
"Some people think it's a one time thing and with a little therapy you'll get over it." |
bertha katzenengel |
Jun-27-08 08:01 AM |
#202 |
| -
Sanctioned murder tells people that revenge killing is ok too, which increases murder because |
McCamy Taylor |
Jun-26-08 03:07 PM |
#148 |
| -
All that's fine and good |
rainlillie |
Jun-26-08 03:19 PM |
#153 |
| -
Thank you Bertha! |
judy |
Jun-26-08 03:12 PM |
#149 |
| -
It's not revenge it's justice! |
rainlillie |
Jun-26-08 03:20 PM |
#154 |
| -
How is it Revenge? |
BigD_95 |
Jun-26-08 03:22 PM |
#155 |
| -
I agree 100 percent! |
rainlillie |
Jun-26-08 03:23 PM |
#156 |
| -
No. You don't have to be the victim to exact revenge. |
Commie Pinko Dirtbag |
Jun-26-08 03:44 PM |
#158 |
| -
Death is an easy way out. |
Fox Mulder |
Jun-26-08 03:51 PM |
#161 |
| -
Same here and agreed. /nt |
readmoreoften |
Jun-26-08 03:13 PM |
#151 |
| -
State sanctioned murder is wrong. |
Fox Mulder |
Jun-26-08 03:49 PM |
#160 |
| -
I am against the deathe penalty in all cases |
gaspee |
Jun-26-08 04:03 PM |
#164 |
| -
You are a brave and wise person on this |
YankeyMCC |
Jun-26-08 04:17 PM |
#166 |
| -
You are of course right on this, Obama is beginning to alarm me on |
ooglymoogly |
Jun-26-08 05:01 PM |
#167 |
| -
I was very surprised to hear my daughter, who was also raped as |
jwirr |
Jun-26-08 05:17 PM |
#168 |
| -
Progressives promoting the Death Penalty, just like China, Iran, |
durrrty libby |
Jun-26-08 06:37 PM |
#171 |
| -
This isn'nt about group think... |
rainlillie |
Jun-27-08 06:33 AM |
#196 |
| -
Yeahh riiight. You keep telling yourself that |
durrrty libby |
Jun-27-08 10:15 AM |
#208 |
| -
You are so right |
slay |
Jun-26-08 06:39 PM |
#172 |
| -
Thank you so much for saying that. Another thing the bloodthirsty mob fail to consider: |
thecatburgler |
Jun-26-08 06:42 PM |
#173 |
| -
Something else to consider... |
Q3JR4 |
Jun-26-08 06:50 PM |
#174 |
| -
I'm with you. nt |
rateyes |
Jun-26-08 06:54 PM |
#175 |
| -
I have mixed feelings about the death penalty. I don't support it in principle... |
Elrond Hubbard |
Jun-26-08 08:19 PM |
#179 |
| -
Thanks for your honesty.. |
rainlillie |
Jun-27-08 06:31 AM |
#195 |
| -
Perhaps I should have added this: I have in fact wished my rapist dead. |
bertha katzenengel |
Jun-27-08 07:43 AM |
#201 |
| -
It is murder for circumstance........ |
Klukie |
Jun-26-08 08:36 PM |
#180 |
| -
Proud to be rec number 100. |
AspieGrrl |
Jun-26-08 09:21 PM |
#181 |
| -
Thank you. I agree. n/t |
whereismyparty |
Jun-26-08 10:06 PM |
#182 |
| -
Obama needs to wise up |
nankerphelge |
Jun-26-08 10:21 PM |
#183 |
| -
I know I will be in the minority in this opinion here on DU |
AutumnMist |
Jun-26-08 10:33 PM |
#184 |
| -
I have very strong feelings about rapists |
gaspee |
Jun-26-08 11:18 PM |
#185 |
| -
Thank you for your statement |
suzie |
Jun-27-08 01:44 AM |
#194 |
| -
I just came online this afternoon |
AutumnMist |
Jun-27-08 04:16 PM |
#210 |
| -
Great post.. |
rainlillie |
Jun-27-08 06:37 AM |
#197 |
| -
I hear you on all of that, Bertha. *hugs* |
GreenPartyVoter |
Jun-26-08 11:25 PM |
#186 |
| -
Whether the DP is morally wrong or not is not the issue |
wpelb |
Jun-27-08 12:00 AM |
#187 |
| -
Deleted message |
Name removed |
Jun-27-08 12:13 AM |
#188 |
| -
This post is out of place in this thread. |
bertha katzenengel |
Jun-27-08 07:32 AM |
#199 |
| -
Europe "dittos" your views. |
lebkuchen |
Jun-27-08 12:13 AM |
#189 |
| -
Man, our culture is de-evolving in leaps and bounds |
justaregularperson |
Jun-27-08 01:23 AM |
#193 |
| -
Self-serving? No. Not helpful? I agree that my post is not helpful, because |
bertha katzenengel |
Jun-27-08 07:39 AM |
#200 |
| -
My bad for not explaining better... |
justaregularperson |
Jun-27-08 08:27 AM |
#205 |
| -
Understood, and thanks. |
bertha katzenengel |
Jun-27-08 08:43 AM |
#206 |
| -
We all need to realize |
placton |
Jun-27-08 07:08 AM |
#198 |
| -
Thank you, Bertha! |
Kajsa |
Jun-27-08 11:59 AM |
#209 |
| -
applause! |
Gilligan |
Jun-27-08 04:18 PM |
#211 |
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