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Reply #41: It's "intentions" were certainly obscure. [View All]

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greendog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-02-07 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. It's "intentions" were certainly obscure.
If, at the time, they were upfront about their intention to favor corporations over workers and drive down the value of American labor a lot of folks would have acquired a negative impression of the DLC early on.
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  -Indictment of the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC). illinoisprogressive  Mar-01-07 09:28 PM   #0 
  - You Are a Republican That Hates Powerful Women  MannyGoldstein   Mar-01-07 09:34 PM   # 
  - K&R  LaPera   Mar-02-07 02:55 PM   #171 
  - You Are a Republican That Hates Powerful Women  MannyGoldstein   Mar-01-07 09:34 PM   #1 
  - You can say that again!  Breeze54   Mar-01-07 10:38 PM   #12 
  - If I had known Bill Clinton was DLC --- I would of never voted for him twice --n/t  PhilipShore   Mar-01-07 09:37 PM   #2 
  - Did you even know anything about the of the DLC in 1992 and 6?  Gman   Mar-01-07 09:58 PM   #5 
  - Weren't the terms "Third Way" and "New Democrat" being used  Gloria   Mar-01-07 10:05 PM   #7 
  - was about to post the same... between 84 and 87/88  salin   Mar-01-07 10:06 PM   #9 
  - {wiping away the cobwebs...}  Gman   Mar-01-07 11:23 PM   #18 
     - maybe "Operation Push"?  salin   Mar-02-07 06:46 AM   #30 
     - The "New Democrats" had NOTHING to do with Jesse Jackson's campaign  Lydia Leftcoast   Mar-02-07 10:32 AM   #50 
        - I'm thinking of the original Progressive Democrats from the 1984  Gman   Mar-02-07 11:58 AM   #85 
           - you're correct about Gary Hart  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 12:02 PM   #87 
              - As a side note...  Gman   Mar-02-07 06:07 PM   #210 
              - some days I feel like I can't remember five minutes ago  salin   Mar-02-07 07:36 PM   #215 
  - No, no idea  PhilipShore   Mar-01-07 10:44 PM   #15 
  - No one had a gripe?  greendog   Mar-02-07 12:16 AM   #25 
  - Name just one instance in which  Gman   Mar-02-07 06:33 AM   #29 
     - Why?  greendog   Mar-02-07 09:20 AM   #35 
        - well, for one thing, it wasn't a fairly obscure organization  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 09:42 AM   #39 
           - It's "intentions" were certainly obscure.  greendog   Mar-02-07 10:04 AM   #41 
              - they've always made their intentions known... what was lacking in '92...  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 10:14 AM   #44 
                 - They made their intentions known, huh?  redqueen   Mar-02-07 10:51 AM   #60 
                 - ok  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 11:14 AM   #67 
                    - That's a bunch of hoo hah...  redqueen   Mar-02-07 11:39 AM   #78 
                       - then PROVE it is hoo-hah  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 11:46 AM   #81 
                          - No, I don't mean that feel-good BS.  redqueen   Mar-02-07 12:41 PM   #95 
                             - post after post, you rationalize your claims without ever proving them  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 12:50 PM   #99 
                                - Your opinions are yours, and you're welcome to them.  redqueen   Mar-02-07 12:56 PM   #105 
                                   - well, if you're so disgusted that you can't bring yourself to list anything but...  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 12:59 PM   #108 
                                      - Yup, you don't care.  redqueen   Mar-02-07 01:00 PM   #110 
                                         - Sometimes it's tough for them to see.  Forkboy   Mar-02-07 01:02 PM   #111 
                                         - What is?  redqueen   Mar-02-07 01:05 PM   #113 
                                         - well, that's something coming from someone who spouts anti-DLC myths so blindly  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 01:05 PM   #114 
                                            - What myths?  redqueen   Mar-02-07 01:09 PM   #117 
                                            - The myths I've continously asked you prove in this thread  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 01:11 PM   #122 
                                            - Yeah.  redqueen   Mar-02-07 01:15 PM   #127 
                                            - the one ignoring the questions is you. Should I list the questions you ignored?  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 01:16 PM   #129 
                                            - Here you go  ProudDad   Mar-02-07 03:55 PM   #188 
                                            - "dissidentvoice" and "Ralph Nader." LOL!  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 03:58 PM   #191 
                 - Very good, you've earned you kibble for today, now go lay down  greyhound1966   Mar-02-07 10:59 AM   #63 
                 - no, I think I'll stay up a little longer.  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 11:09 AM   #66 
                 - They've stated their intentions by thier voting record.  greendog   Mar-02-07 12:47 PM   #98 
                    - sorry, a think tank holds no votes in Congress  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 12:55 PM   #104 
                    - The Congressional members of a "think tank'...  greendog   Mar-02-07 01:10 PM   #120 
                       - Unfounded smears  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 01:14 PM   #126 
                       - Their constituents were writing letters asking them to vote for those bills?  greendog   Mar-02-07 01:19 PM   #133 
                          - Is that how you define "payola and arm twisting."  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 01:30 PM   #137 
                          - Well, lets just agree...  greendog   Mar-02-07 01:44 PM   #145 
                             - I don't think we'll agree on that. We might agree that...  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 01:46 PM   #147 
                                - Wolf's posts are worthless flame-bait  ProudDad   Mar-02-07 03:59 PM   #192 
                                   - Flamebait is right...  dpbrown   Mar-02-07 07:23 PM   #214 
                          - since you asked: yes  onenote   Mar-02-07 02:20 PM   #159 
                             - Good on them!  greendog   Mar-02-07 05:58 PM   #207 
                       - Feingold took payola?  onenote   Mar-02-07 01:42 PM   #144 
                          - Wow, I didn't realize that...  greendog   Mar-02-07 01:54 PM   #149 
                    - The DLC is going the way of PNAC, and they're formalizing their alliance  greyhound1966   Mar-02-07 01:17 PM   #130 
  - No one?  Warren Stupidity   Mar-02-07 10:22 AM   #46 
  - Umm, excuse me... there were indeed more than a few of us that had major problems with them  greyhound1966   Mar-02-07 10:40 AM   #52 
  - You seriously did not know Clinton was in the DLC?  WorldResident   Mar-02-07 07:49 PM   #216 
  - what are "McCartyite attacks?"  wyldwolf   Mar-01-07 09:48 PM   #3 
  - You gave that POS rant way more pixels....  SaveElmer   Mar-01-07 10:10 PM   #10 
  - True that.  blossomstar   Mar-01-07 10:45 PM   #17 
  - Don't worry  DancingBear   Mar-02-07 10:49 AM   #57 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Mar-02-07 04:00 PM   #194 
  - If ethics was the #1 issue, that also is something the DLC falls down on...  calipendence   Mar-01-07 11:43 PM   #21 
  - yet, it wasn't DLCers who were stung by ethics problems in Congress - go figure!  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 04:55 AM   #28 
     - Are you saying NO DLCers have ethics issues?  redqueen   Mar-02-07 10:52 AM   #61 
     - nope. I'm saying they have no more than "progressive" Dems do  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 11:15 AM   #68 
        - Gee, you mean they're all human  redqueen   Mar-02-07 11:40 AM   #79 
           - of course, so distinquishing the DLC on ethics problems is at best a red herring  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 11:48 AM   #82 
              - Yeah, I don't know about that.  redqueen   Mar-02-07 12:57 PM   #107 
                 - think of Democrats who have had questions of impropriety directed at them  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 01:04 PM   #112 
                    - Questions of impropriety?  redqueen   Mar-02-07 01:11 PM   #121 
                       - did I misspell it?  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 01:12 PM   #124 
                          - Nah...  redqueen   Mar-02-07 01:13 PM   #125 
                             - I didn't think so.  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 01:15 PM   #128 
                                - Their responses have become so robotic...so ingrained in their thought processes...  SaveElmer   Mar-02-07 02:08 PM   #154 
     - I'm talking about the SYSTEM that creates ethics problems...  calipendence   Mar-02-07 12:29 PM   #94 
        - whose system is it?  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 12:57 PM   #106 
           - I think that it is the "corporatist" party's system (Republicans AND the DLC)  calipendence   Mar-02-07 01:11 PM   #123 
           - then why are more non-DLC Dems having ethics problems?  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 01:18 PM   #131 
           - AGAIN, it's the rules that go after those people instead of those of the DLC...  calipendence   Mar-02-07 01:32 PM   #138 
              - oh, the victim card. Investigations just aren't meted out equally. Riiiight.  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 01:34 PM   #140 
                 - I think that's what Iglesias is hinting to now...  calipendence   Mar-02-07 01:38 PM   #141 
                    - It isn't a DLC problem at all.  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 01:39 PM   #143 
                       - Just like it isn't an enabling wife's problem of a drunk beating his kids too...  calipendence   Mar-02-07 01:46 PM   #146 
                          - I don't think domestic violence is a good comparison .  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 01:50 PM   #148 
                             - It isn't domestic violence that is the point of comparison...  calipendence   Mar-02-07 01:59 PM   #151 
                                - ok, so again I point out...  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 02:10 PM   #156 
                                   - AGAIN it is the RULES who defines who gets called out on ethics issues!  calipendence   Mar-02-07 02:47 PM   #169 
                                      - ok... so the rules state that no DLCers can be called out?  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 02:58 PM   #172 
                                         - You don't have any explicit laws that say that whites can't be prosecuted...  calipendence   Mar-02-07 06:03 PM   #208 
           - "Our current system of campaign finance is nothing more than legalized bribery" - Bill Moyers  greyhound1966   Mar-02-07 02:03 PM   #152 
           - What's the population?  MsMagnificent   Mar-02-07 04:37 PM   #202 
  - Re: McCarthyite attacks  SOS   Mar-02-07 11:33 AM   #76 
     - now, should I list the neverending screeds by Sirota, KOS, etc...  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 12:16 PM   #92 
        - Not necessary  SOS   Mar-02-07 12:52 PM   #101 
           - oh, I assure you the Marxist revolutionary rhetoric of Sirota and the profanity -laced spew of KOS..  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 01:10 PM   #119 
              - "Marxist revolutionary"  SOS   Mar-02-07 01:55 PM   #150 
                 - LOL!  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 02:07 PM   #153 
  - "part" of the problem...?  QuestionAll   Mar-01-07 09:51 PM   #4 
  - Good grief... give it up already  Gman   Mar-01-07 10:01 PM   #6 
  - Organized labor? Walmart-style?  newburgh   Mar-01-07 11:57 PM   #24 
  - What organized labor are you talking about?  greyhound1966   Mar-02-07 11:07 AM   #65 
  - Hear hear!  magellan   Mar-01-07 10:05 PM   #8 
  - K&R!  Madspirit   Mar-01-07 10:21 PM   #11 
  - Applause!!  Breeze54   Mar-01-07 10:41 PM   #13 
  - Militarists- Corporatists  Jcrowley   Mar-01-07 10:43 PM   #14 
  - Trade has hurt workers in certain industries since the beginning of time  Hippo_Tron   Mar-01-07 10:44 PM   #16 
  - Hell I wish they'd negotiated NAFTA to force  ProudDad   Mar-02-07 04:04 PM   #196 
     - You make a good point, sir  Hippo_Tron   Mar-02-07 04:07 PM   #199 
  - I went to look for the link...but you wrote it, illinoisprogressive, and it's  Kurovski   Mar-01-07 11:30 PM   #19 
  - Obama supports free trade agreements. an admirable stance. nt.  k_jerome   Mar-01-07 11:33 PM   #20 
  - It's this "manufactured" final between Hillary and Obama that is a problem...  calipendence   Mar-01-07 11:46 PM   #22 
     - it must suck to be in constant fear of the DLC...  k_jerome   Mar-01-07 11:50 PM   #23 
        - If that's true, I won't be supporting Obama, either. (nt)  w4rma   Mar-02-07 08:11 AM   #32 
        - you may want to look at John Edwards....  k_jerome   Mar-02-07 03:21 PM   #176 
           - I already support Edwards of the candidates currently running. (nt)  w4rma   Mar-02-07 03:25 PM   #177 
        - The operative word should be FAIR trade, which I want my president in 2008 to support!  calipendence   Mar-02-07 12:06 PM   #88 
        - I'm not afraid of the DLC  ProudDad   Mar-02-07 04:06 PM   #197 
           - yeah...you are. nt.  k_jerome   Mar-02-07 04:08 PM   #200 
  - Exactly what do we have to be "strong" enough to do abroad?  eridani   Mar-02-07 02:33 AM   #26 
  - I despise the DLC  tavalon   Mar-02-07 03:17 AM   #27 
  - Good post. I believe that DLC apologists are the cut from the same cloth as Bush apologists.  Mzztakable   Mar-02-07 06:47 AM   #31 
  - What absolute bullshit.  Lurking Dem   Mar-02-07 08:20 AM   #33 
     - Do you know what you are talking about?  Usrename   Mar-02-07 09:28 AM   #37 
     - I have facts that contradict what is being claimed by the other posters  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 09:41 AM   #38 
     - I haven't seen you "knock down" anything with facts yet. What are you waiting for? nt  Mzztakable   Mar-03-07 10:23 AM   #223 
        - As of Saturday 3/3 at 12:30 pm EST  SOS   Mar-03-07 11:35 AM   #224 
           - LOL! I should've known better than to respond. nt  Mzztakable   Mar-03-07 02:16 PM   #226 
     - "Neocons in the Democratic Party"  greyhound1966   Mar-02-07 11:15 AM   #69 
     - Do you have a real reply? The fact that you cannot properly address my post makes me wonder about  Mzztakable   Mar-03-07 09:29 AM   #221 
  - The DLC are dying. The 2006 election improved the ranks of the progressives  Larkspur   Mar-02-07 09:17 AM   #34 
  - "Progressives" have been saying that for years. Just more wishful thinking on their part.  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 09:25 AM   #36 
  - Straight question re: wishful thinking  SOS   Mar-02-07 10:53 AM   #62 
     - that wasn' t the point  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 11:20 AM   #73 
  - Not soon enough. They were met by Progressive Dems carrying a giant backbone  mod mom   Mar-02-07 10:09 AM   #42 
  - Maybe they'll find a home with their RINO brethren in the "Unity Party".  Tierra_y_Libertad   Mar-02-07 09:48 AM   #40 
  - Why do people supposed to be Democratic  Bitwit1234   Mar-02-07 10:12 AM   #43 
  - because she won't kowtow and kiss the asses of the left.  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 10:16 AM   #45 
  - How can she?  DancingBear   Mar-02-07 12:43 PM   #96 
     - better question: WHY would she?  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 12:51 PM   #100 
     - Deleted message  Name removed   Mar-02-07 04:12 PM   #201 
        - Truer words and all that  DancingBear   Mar-02-07 05:12 PM   #204 
        - Hi, I'm ProudDad  ConservativeDemocrat   Mar-02-07 05:53 PM   #206 
  - There is way more than a million answers to that question  nolabels   Mar-02-07 10:29 AM   #48 
  - It's a foolish strategy. America loves her  Truth Hurts A Lot   Mar-02-07 10:43 AM   #54 
     - America loves her?  redqueen   Mar-02-07 10:48 AM   #56 
        - I think so because I deal with a lot of mainstreamers  Truth Hurts A Lot   Mar-02-07 12:52 PM   #102 
           - "Tearing down" is a loaded term.  redqueen   Mar-02-07 12:59 PM   #109 
  - Tweedle DLC=Tweedle GOP  PhilipShore   Mar-02-07 10:25 AM   #47 
  - Great cartoon!  redqueen   Mar-02-07 10:49 AM   #58 
  - Excellent cartoon!  notsodumbhillbilly   Mar-02-07 10:50 AM   #59 
  - woo hoo!  leftchick   Mar-02-07 11:03 AM   #64 
  - Perfect!  guruoo   Mar-02-07 12:13 PM   #89 
  - You got my vote!  bonito   Mar-02-07 10:30 AM   #49 
  - The only pure guy so far is Obama  Truth Hurts A Lot   Mar-02-07 10:39 AM   #51 
  - How true. I won't vote for her either.  dkofos   Mar-02-07 10:40 AM   #53 
  - FANTASTIC post!  redqueen   Mar-02-07 10:46 AM   #55 
  - second that!  Stephanie   Mar-02-07 11:24 AM   #74 
  - thanks, k&r  G_j   Mar-02-07 11:16 AM   #70 
  - Hey look behind you.....it's the DLC...  SaveElmer   Mar-02-07 11:18 AM   #71 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Mar-02-07 11:19 AM   #72 
  - LOL! Let's look at the "liberal" record of presidential victories post 1964...  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 11:26 AM   #75 
  - Those liberals that you are so fond of pointing to were both torpedoed  greyhound1966   Mar-02-07 11:34 AM   #77 
     - Both? There is certainly more than 2  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 11:41 AM   #80 
        - Deleted message  Name removed   Mar-02-07 11:54 AM   #83 
           - ...only from their perspective  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 12:01 PM   #86 
              - In both '68 and '00, it was the failure of the Democratic Party to accommodate  greyhound1966   Mar-02-07 12:43 PM   #97 
                 - so, it isn't the party's responsibility to accomodate anyone. The left isn't the base...  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 12:53 PM   #103 
                    - More reactionary idiocy, and four posts in a row where you ignore the issue,  greyhound1966   Mar-02-07 01:08 PM   #116 
                       - Spot on.  Seabiscuit   Mar-02-07 01:19 PM   #132 
                       - It is my contention that these are neocons, pretending to be democratic.  greyhound1966   Mar-02-07 02:09 PM   #155 
                          - You may be on to something... Joe Loserman's a case in point.  Seabiscuit   Mar-02-07 03:56 PM   #189 
                       - right.  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 01:20 PM   #134 
                          - 5  greyhound1966   Mar-02-07 02:12 PM   #157 
                             - 5 - the number of elections the far left have screwed up for the Democrats  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 02:14 PM   #158 
                                - 6  greyhound1966   Mar-02-07 02:20 PM   #161 
                                   - 6 - if 2008 gets added to that list.  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 02:23 PM   #162 
                                      - 7, going for a record here folks...  greyhound1966   Mar-02-07 02:24 PM   #163 
                                         - well, let's hope the left doesn't set a record of dooming us to GOP presidents  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 02:27 PM   #164 
                                            - 8, how long can he keep it up, the contortions and spinning have got to be tiring...  greyhound1966   Mar-02-07 02:33 PM   #165 
                                               - greyhound1966 chases the lure again!  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 02:40 PM   #167 
                                                  - 9! 9 times he has ignored the issue, we're witnessing history here today.  greyhound1966   Mar-02-07 03:00 PM   #173 
                                                  - ... I believe he thinks it's a real rabbit! What he calls "the real issue" (Post 72) was Deleted!  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 03:06 PM   #174 
                                                  - Pretending ignorance, could this be the end of the streak? Count, what have  greyhound1966   Mar-02-07 03:27 PM   #178 
                                                  - greyhound1966 comes around the outside track looking for his point.  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 03:29 PM   #179 
                                                  - "Welcome back fans, it appears the corporate lapdog has resorted to the  greyhound1966   Mar-02-07 03:40 PM   #182 
                                                  - greyhound1966 seems confused. His lost focus on the lure and is looking for his point...  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 03:49 PM   #183 
                                                  - Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, thank you. n/t  greyhound1966   Mar-02-07 03:51 PM   #185 
                                                  - ...now greyhound has run off the track! He's barking at the officials...  wyldwolf   Mar-02-07 03:56 PM   #190 
                                                  - LOL! We have a declared winner.  Dr Fate   Mar-02-07 04:07 PM   #198 
                                                  - LOL  MsMagnificent   Mar-02-07 05:08 PM   #203 
  - That's pretty funny when it's the anti-DLCers who  MGKrebs   Mar-02-07 01:07 PM   #115 
     - I'm not against those that have more conservative views on many issues...  calipendence   Mar-02-07 01:24 PM   #136 
        - I don't know, it just seems like so many "activists" consider  MGKrebs   Mar-02-07 02:37 PM   #166 
  - Oh my, in all the excitement, I'd forgotten to recommend this.  greyhound1966   Mar-02-07 11:57 AM   #84 
  - K&R  guruoo   Mar-02-07 12:14 PM   #90 
  - K&R  guruoo   Mar-02-07 12:15 PM   #91 
  - The candidate for those of you whose support for torture  BuyingThyme   Mar-02-07 12:27 PM   #93 
  - Bearing fruit...  Seabiscuit   Mar-02-07 01:09 PM   #118 
  - LOL! I understand your feelings, but ignoring them is dangerous.  greyhound1966   Mar-02-07 01:22 PM   #135 
  - Yeah, shining cleansing lights is an ugly job, and someone's got to do it.  Seabiscuit   Mar-02-07 04:03 PM   #195 
  - I also ignore them  notsodumbhillbilly   Mar-02-07 01:39 PM   #142 
     - Yup...  Seabiscuit   Mar-02-07 03:49 PM   #184 
  - Funny how many people seem to agree. Is anyone listening? - n/t  porphyrian   Mar-02-07 01:33 PM   #139 
  - They have the corporate money to make their voice arrogantly louder  GreenTea   Mar-03-07 12:39 PM   #225 
  - BUT....they say they are the "Real Soul of the Party"..read this.  madfloridian   Mar-02-07 02:20 PM   #160 
  - activist elites? WTF? we're the folks supporting the troops and working people and NOT  mod mom   Mar-02-07 02:53 PM   #170 
  - This is excellent...Finally some real truth about the fucking DLC!!!  GreenTea   Mar-02-07 02:46 PM   #168 
  - well said!  UpInArms   Mar-02-07 03:19 PM   #175 
  - Their support & defense of Joe Lieberman put the final nail in the coffin for me.  Dr Fate   Mar-02-07 03:31 PM   #180 
  - Funny. It was during that fiasco  Seabiscuit   Mar-02-07 03:51 PM   #186 
     - If you took them off ignore- you would find that they all pretend to never have supported Joe.  Dr Fate   Mar-02-07 04:00 PM   #193 
        - Now why would I want to upchuck a perfectly good meal reading that kind of garbage?  Seabiscuit   Mar-02-07 08:26 PM   #217 
  - DLC's Bill Clinton...  keepCAblue   Mar-02-07 03:39 PM   #181 
  - k&r  me b zola   Mar-02-07 03:55 PM   #187 
  - DLC= NAFTA, Globalization/ deregulation of banking, energy, and telecom  Joanne98   Mar-02-07 05:37 PM   #205 
  - If you don't like the DLC, please consider a candidate other than Bill Richardson  Czolgosz   Mar-02-07 06:07 PM   #209 
  - And if that's not enough  Morgana LaFey   Mar-02-07 06:39 PM   #211 
  - K&R. F*** the DLC.  Oregonian   Mar-02-07 06:42 PM   #212 
  - K&R Tired of having no traction in congress.  Porcupine   Mar-02-07 07:09 PM   #213 
     - Yep, the DLC has been exposed. Like repubs they can't hide anymore  Morereason   Mar-02-07 08:40 PM   #219 
  - wyldwolf, You are a one man marketer for the DLC  Morereason   Mar-02-07 08:38 PM   #218 
  - * ALERT*Are you the same person that authored this article here ?  jaysunb   Mar-02-07 09:02 PM   #220 
  - obey HRC  mdmc   Mar-03-07 09:33 AM   #222 
 

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