Donate to DU!
Democratic Underground Latest Threads
Latest
Greatest Threads
Greatest
Lobby
Lobby
Journals
Journals
Search
Search
Options
Options
Help
Help
Login
Login
Google

Reply #55: I reject the question's premise ... [View All]

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
First thread | Last thread
Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU
RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Donate to DU! Thu Apr-03-08 02:22 AM
Response to Original message
55. I reject the question's premise ...
Edited on Thu Apr-03-08 02:26 AM by RoyGBiv
It is flawed for two reasons.

First, the term "affirmative action" does not have, nor was it intended to have a meaning that links it to a system of racial quotas. In fact, the opposite was the original intent, and, as has been argued time and again from the street corner to board rooms to the Supreme Court, applying a system of racial quotas to hiring practices, educational admissions qualifications, etc. is antithetical to the "color blind" intent of the civil rights movements of the 1960s. Roy Wilkins, executive director of the NAACP in 1964 testifying before Congress stated plainly, "Our association has never been in favor of a quota system. We believe the quota system is unfair whether it is used for Negroes or against Negroes. We feel people ought to be hired because of their ability, irrespective of their color. . . . We want equality, equality of opportunity and employment on the basis of ability."

Second, the question assumes that racial quotas, as such, are a clear component of federal law, and that is simply not the case. Racial quotas have been implemented by companies and governmental entities. However, individuals have on occasion subsequently sued and won so-called "reverse discrimination" cases as a consequence, and to make matters even less clear, the varied concurrent opinions issued in several of these cases differed in so many details that no single standard, no uniform interpretation, could be derived. (See State Board of Regents of University of California v. Bakke and McDonald v. Santa Fe Trail Transportation Corp. for examples.) As the laws and interpretation of those laws currently stand, companies, educational institutions, et al can technically be in violation of Title VII both if they have a racial quota system and if they do not, depending on the individual details of their employment practices and the judicial interpretation of the laws at any given moment in any given district. Thus the question of racial quotas (or more properly "racial preference") comes down to a question of judicial interpretation, which, since the enactment of the first civil rights laws in the 50's, has never been uniform.

The term "affirmative action" itself was first used by John Kennedy in Executive Order No. 10925. Companies contracting with the federal government were directed to "take affirmative action to ensure that the applicants are employed and that employees are treated during employment, without regard to race, creed, color or national origin." The meaning of the phrase was intended as nothing more than a directive for employers to take "positive" action to ensure racial discrimination was absent from the workplace. This was a contrast to the standard practice of the day of employers avoiding discrimination allegations simply by not issuing direct policies that required discriminatory practices, yet doing nothing if individuals made discriminatory decisions of their own accord and with no accountability.

At length, Lyndon Johnson issued Executive Order No. 11246, the fifth such order of a similar variety, which in effect has been amended and clarified several time since, to establish rules for government contractors in their hiring practices. What it did was require employers to establish guidelines and monitor themselves to make sure they were adhering to those guidelines else risk debarment. The intent was for hiring practices to be "color blind," which, it was argued, is not possible with any kind of racial preference system, regardless of who is preferred. This was the standard understanding of the time, declared by people like Edmund Muskie when he said, "Every American citizen has the right to equal treatment-not favored treatment, not complete individual equality-just equal treatment." Supporting the passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, Hubert Humphrey concurred when he said, "The title does not provide that any preferential treatment in employment shall be given to Negroes or to any other persons or groups. It does not provide that any quota system may be established to maintain racial balance in employment. In fact, the title would prohibit preferential treatment for any particular group, and any person, whether or not a member of any minority group, would be permitted to file a complaint of discriminatory employment practices.

Over the next three decades, however, the term was refined and twisted both legally and in the political vernacular, the latter resulting in a divorce of the legal meaning of the term with the popular understanding of that meaning. Every administration from Nixon to Bush II as implemented various aspects of affirmative action rules differently and changed the manner of enforcement. No single law nor rule governs "affirmative action" programs at the federal level, and no consistent manner of enforcing the most equitable intent of those guidelines has ever been employed.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
  Has the time come to end affirmative action and racial quotas? billbuckhead  Apr-03-08 12:28 AM   #0 
   There are NO RACIAL QUOTAS...get over your self!!!  angstlessk   Apr-03-08 12:29 AM   #1 
   Really? Corporations don't have them?  billbuckhead   Apr-03-08 12:31 AM   #2 
   NO CORPORATIONS DO NOT HAVE QUOTAS...  angstlessk   Apr-03-08 12:41 AM   #10 
   My last company was required to have  gateley   Apr-03-08 12:33 AM   #4 
   Especially if they have Government Contracts.  Breeze54   Apr-03-08 12:34 AM   #5 
      IT IS NOT THE LAW WITH GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS...  angstlessk   Apr-03-08 12:38 AM   #8 
         Facts on Executive Order 11246 -- Affirmative Action --You are WRONG!!!  Breeze54   Apr-03-08 12:51 AM   #12 
         nowhere in that diatribe was the word QUOTA...IT DOES NOT EXIST  angstlessk   Apr-03-08 12:56 AM   #15 
            Diatribe? That's the actual law!!  Breeze54   Apr-03-08 01:06 AM   #20 
            I understand..but I am sayin it is words...fancy, cute words nothing more.  angstlessk   Apr-03-08 01:12 AM   #24 
               Def: diatribe - prolonged discourse, abusive speech or writing, satirical criticism  Breeze54   Apr-03-08 01:15 AM   #28 
                  It is a prolonged discourse...that is only a LAW when it is prosecuted when it is broken  angstlessk   Apr-03-08 01:18 AM   #31 
                     No, our conversation could be thought of as 'prolonged' but  Breeze54   Apr-03-08 01:21 AM   #33 
                        Okay Breeze54...it is not a diatribe..but it is not a law because it is not prosecuted  angstlessk   Apr-03-08 01:24 AM   #36 
                           LOL...it is a Law but you have to file the complaint with the EOC!  Breeze54   Apr-03-08 01:28 AM   #39 
                           I'm learning so if there is a 'next time' no diatribe from me!!!!  angstlessk   Apr-03-08 01:31 AM   #42 
                              LOL... No worries.....  Breeze54   Apr-03-08 01:34 AM   #43 
                                 If I knew a bunch of black men who are qualified pile drivers I would!!!  angstlessk   Apr-03-08 01:40 AM   #46 
                                    LOL! - Maybe your local EOC office has that data on their website!  Breeze54   Apr-03-08 01:47 AM   #50 
                           "it is not a law because it is not prosecuted"?  uppityperson   Apr-03-08 12:26 PM   #66 
            contractors with 50 or more employees and government contracts of $50,000 or more are required  Breeze54   Apr-03-08 01:07 AM   #21 
               the company I worked for had a written AA program..it gathered dust  angstlessk   Apr-03-08 01:11 AM   #23 
                  Then they're lucky no one files a lawsuit with the EOC ...still doesn't make it right.  Breeze54   Apr-03-08 01:12 AM   #25 
                     They were..I was married to my husband who is black..and they were not only mean  angstlessk   Apr-03-08 01:15 AM   #27 
                        Yes you should have sued. Maybe you still can, if you kept notes and  Breeze54   Apr-03-08 01:18 AM   #30 
                           Damn..glad you filed a complaint  angstlessk   Apr-03-08 01:22 AM   #35 
                              You don't complain to the company. You call the Equal Opportunity Commission  Breeze54   Apr-03-08 01:24 AM   #37 
                                 Dern..wished I knew that then...been over 10 years now...  angstlessk   Apr-03-08 01:28 AM   #40 
                                    Well; at least now you know and you can help others having the same problem.  Breeze54   Apr-03-08 01:30 AM   #41 
         Yes it IS a law  proud2Blib   Apr-03-08 12:56 AM   #14 
            QUOTAS IS NOT WRITTEN IN ANY LAW..SHOW ME THE WORD QUOTA  angstlessk   Apr-03-08 12:57 AM   #16 
               No reason to shout  proud2Blib   Apr-03-08 01:18 AM   #29 
                  I am talking about QUOTAS..not Affirmative Action...it was the word QUOTA  angstlessk   Apr-03-08 01:26 AM   #38 
                  Makes it easy  uppityperson   Apr-03-08 12:23 PM   #65 
   I worked for a company who had to comply with the EEO and fill out  angstlessk   Apr-03-08 12:37 AM   #7 
      If "and the company was 99.5% white" ; then they DID have a problem!!  Breeze54   Apr-03-08 12:39 AM   #9 
         It was a racist company..but they never lost a government job because of it...  angstlessk   Apr-03-08 12:42 AM   #11 
            Crooked people handing out Gov. Contracts doesn't mean  Breeze54   Apr-03-08 12:53 AM   #13 
               have you seen the pre-job paperwork required before one can bid a government job??  angstlessk   Apr-03-08 01:02 AM   #18 
                  It is still the law...that's why people hire EOO contract specialists and  Breeze54   Apr-03-08 01:09 AM   #22 
                     Sure if you are Coca Cola and don't want to get sued..not to get a government contract  angstlessk   Apr-03-08 01:13 AM   #26 
                        Most Human Resources Admins do that job. n/t  Breeze54   Apr-03-08 01:19 AM   #32 
   Affirmative action is still necessary... for all  Breeze54   Apr-03-08 12:32 AM   #3 
   Sadly I fear it will take another generation or two  nadinbrzezinski   Apr-03-08 12:35 AM   #6 
   Has the time come to end legacy admissions (affirmative action for white people)?  Alexander   Apr-03-08 01:00 AM   #17 
   I got a star why not???  angstlessk   Apr-03-08 01:43 AM   #48 
   You're on a mission, I see.  libnnc   Apr-03-08 01:02 AM   #19 
   You seem awfully obsessed with race.  Forkboy   Apr-03-08 01:21 AM   #34 
   yeah  beezlebum   Apr-03-08 01:37 AM   #44 
      Over in GD-P he called Obama the "affirmative action candidate".  Forkboy   Apr-03-08 01:38 AM   #45 
      exactly.  beezlebum   Apr-03-08 01:44 AM   #49 
      I guess someone needed to take Herman Munster's place as DU's resident race-baiter.  Alexander   Apr-03-08 01:59 AM   #51 
         I suspect the Admins will catch up with this one as well.  Forkboy   Apr-03-08 02:15 AM   #54 
         Somehow I feel the mods may decide we're still one ignorant white guy over the limit  jgraz   Apr-03-08 03:50 AM   #60 
         Oh, I expect he will slip up before too long...  Alexander   Apr-03-08 03:52 AM   #61 
         Herman's gone? Seriesly???  jgraz   Apr-03-08 03:16 AM   #57 
      Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Apr-03-08 01:42 AM   #47 
   Also here to say that affirmative action isn't quotas . . .  defendandprotect   Apr-03-08 02:01 AM   #52 
   touche...even the admision into Yale would not turn a white man black  angstlessk   Apr-03-08 02:03 AM   #53 
   I reject the question's premise ...  RoyGBiv   Apr-03-08 02:22 AM   #55 
   excellent work RGB  Two Americas   Apr-03-08 03:55 AM   #62 
      Thank you ...  RoyGBiv   Apr-03-08 12:10 PM   #64 
   Wow, coming back from your "week off" with a bang, I see  jgraz   Apr-03-08 03:10 AM   #56 
   Hell no  ismnotwasm   Apr-03-08 03:49 AM   #58 
   affirmative action?  Two Americas   Apr-03-08 03:49 AM   #59 
      Yeah, he's definitely still pissed off about that one.  jgraz   Apr-03-08 04:45 AM   #63 
 

Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals  |  Links  |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2009 Democratic Underground, LLC