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Reply #42: And issue #2... [View All]

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malakai2 Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:20 AM
Response to Reply #32
42. And issue #2...
Most civilized societies do not use the death penalty
-so, if you have the death penalty, you are not civilized? Or if you are a (what, a barbarian country?) you have the death penalty? This isn't an argument for or against the death penalty in any way.

This would be a matter of congruence. It's difficult for a collection of people (broad society) to argue that murder is wrong, but that capital punishment is acceptable when prescribed by 12 people in a courthouse. Both entail individuals choosing to kill a person, either through formal sentencing or informally deciding said person deserves it. Both require unanimity at some level, but substantial percentages of people not immediately involved in making the decision would disagree that killing is appropriate. So in both cases, you have a small number of people deciding to kill another person against the wishes of many or most people, yet in one case it's a heinous crime and in the other a celebrated legal instrument. Most civilized societies recognize how difficult it is to philosophically separate the two, and have done away with capital punishment.
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  -What should happen to the 14 year old boy who killed the gay boy in his classroom? cynatnite  Mar-30-08 01:13 AM   #0 
  - i think it was just an emotional reaction  JI7   Mar-30-08 01:15 AM   #1 
  - I have reason to wonder about that...  cynatnite   Mar-30-08 01:18 AM   #2 
     - You Are Correct. It Was Not a Gut Reaction.  Toasterlad   Mar-30-08 08:31 AM   #52 
        - Hate does not cure nor prevent further hate....  hlthe2b   Mar-30-08 08:59 AM   #57 
        - I'm sorry. I hate that my GLBT friends have had to suffer like that.  Midlodemocrat   Mar-30-08 09:12 AM   #62 
        - Thank You, Midlo, For Your Good Opinion Of Me.  Toasterlad   Mar-30-08 09:42 AM   #64 
        - You haven't caused me to think poorly of you. At all.  Midlodemocrat   Mar-30-08 09:51 AM   #65 
        - Yes, exactly. Well said. nt  JerseygirlCT   Mar-30-08 08:27 PM   #92 
        - My Rules as a Gay Man  cbaker3122   Mar-30-08 11:15 AM   #71 
        - Killing this kid doesn't remove the threat at all  JerseygirlCT   Mar-30-08 08:26 PM   #91 
           - Don't mean to disagree but,  Fire_Medic_Dave   Mar-30-08 08:59 PM   #94 
           - It removes one child  JerseygirlCT   Mar-30-08 09:06 PM   #96 
              - I don't disagree with you about dealing with it at the root.  Fire_Medic_Dave   Mar-30-08 09:14 PM   #98 
              - I know. I understand that  JerseygirlCT   Mar-30-08 09:30 PM   #102 
                 - We disagree, I don't believe it's always the answer.  Fire_Medic_Dave   Mar-30-08 09:41 PM   #108 
              - well then  Bluenorthwest   Mar-31-08 05:22 PM   #166 
                 - I think when you're dealing with a child, you hold the parents  JerseygirlCT   Mar-31-08 08:46 PM   #177 
           - You Could Say The Same Thing About Locking Him Up, JerseyGirl.  Toasterlad   Mar-30-08 09:31 PM   #103 
              - Yes, I suppose you could  JerseygirlCT   Mar-30-08 09:45 PM   #111 
  - From a broader sociological perspective  nathan hale   Mar-30-08 01:18 AM   #3 
  - Most likely, He will go on to kill again....  opihimoimoi   Mar-30-08 01:21 AM   #4 
  - So put him to death because you think he might kill again?  cynatnite   Mar-30-08 01:34 AM   #9 
  - He killed for the victim ended....intentionally killed...  opihimoimoi   Mar-30-08 06:03 AM   #49 
  - True. He probably would, unless ...  quantessd   Mar-30-08 02:23 AM   #18 
  - 40 a system that treat rehabs disturbed minds  opihimoimoi   Mar-30-08 06:04 AM   #50 
  - Utter nonsense  Donald Ian Rankin   Mar-31-08 09:55 AM   #139 
     - Good. Let's Put Him in Day Care With Your Kids, Since He's So Safe.  Toasterlad   Mar-31-08 02:52 PM   #152 
     - Was that intended not to be a complete non-sequitur?  Donald Ian Rankin   Mar-31-08 03:54 PM   #160 
     - Dupe.  Toasterlad   Mar-31-08 02:52 PM   #153 
  - The boy that was murdered was most likely a 'better person' than  Mind_your_head   Mar-30-08 01:24 AM   #5 
  - That boy murdered seemed like such a nice kid just trying to be himself. I  zonkers   Mar-30-08 01:33 AM   #8 
  - As I said, it would take the "wisdom of Solomon"  Mind_your_head   Mar-30-08 02:01 AM   #15 
  - I'd say there's no 'most likely' about it.  Withywindle   Mar-31-08 02:04 AM   #125 
  - HIS FAMILY  elleng   Mar-30-08 01:27 AM   #6 
  - Life or something close  pbca   Mar-30-08 01:31 AM   #7 
  - maybe it was just the Twinkies he ate  Lex   Mar-30-08 01:34 AM   #10 
  - Life in prison  bluestateguy   Mar-30-08 01:39 AM   #11 
  - Whatever the case, there are two victims of the crime.  sofa king   Mar-30-08 01:44 AM   #12 
  - Wait.....there are not two victims of the crime  Mind_your_head   Mar-30-08 02:33 AM   #20 
     - Exactly..what choice did the murdered victim get?  kevinbgoode   Mar-30-08 02:58 AM   #26 
     - He's still a victim of his own actions.  sofa king   Mar-30-08 01:48 PM   #73 
  - Compassion and education...  Luminous Animal   Mar-30-08 01:49 AM   #13 
  - He shouldn't even be in prison!?!?! What "hope" is there for his victim?  Bluebear   Mar-30-08 01:59 AM   #14 
  - Well..  Luminous Animal   Mar-30-08 02:41 AM   #22 
     - When he's a loving, productive human being, let society know.  Bluebear   Mar-30-08 02:49 AM   #24 
     - Are you sure of that?  Fire_Medic_Dave   Mar-30-08 09:06 PM   #95 
     - You can't rehab a sociopath  LostinVA   Mar-31-08 09:53 AM   #137 
  - Yeah, teaching someone (who still lives) and killed another that :  Mind_your_head   Mar-30-08 02:24 AM   #19 
  - Indeed...  Luminous Animal   Mar-30-08 02:47 AM   #23 
     - The monster was already created  kevinbgoode   Mar-30-08 03:02 AM   #29 
     - Wah????  Mind_your_head   Mar-30-08 03:02 AM   #30 
     - It could be worse  LostinVA   Mar-31-08 09:57 AM   #141 
     - "Anally raped".. Yeah, why DOES that happen in American prisons and not in Western European prisons?  DutchLiberal   Mar-30-08 05:11 AM   #46 
     - Because we are a much more violent society, not proud of it, but it's true.  Fire_Medic_Dave   Mar-30-08 09:11 PM   #97 
     - He murdered someone...  Dorian Gray   Mar-30-08 09:15 AM   #63 
     - as the other poster says, the dude is already a monster  pitohui   Mar-30-08 11:00 AM   #69 
     - Deleted message  Name removed   Mar-31-08 07:41 AM   #128 
     - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Mar-31-08 09:56 AM   #140 
     - Whoa... No question this kid is vile, but that's a little too much schadenfreude even for me...  nomorenomore08   Mar-31-08 04:14 PM   #162 
        - Anal rape's good revenge and forced feminisation isn't?  baby_mouse   Apr-01-08 02:11 AM   #187 
     - No -- keep him in juvenile until he's an adult, then put him in adult prison and NEVER let him out  LostinVA   Mar-31-08 09:55 AM   #138 
  - He should never leave prison.  mainegreen   Mar-31-08 11:13 AM   #146 
  - He is obviously an innocent victim and we should all feel sorry for him.  fiziwig   Mar-30-08 02:10 AM   #16 
  - Oh, which thread? An entirely different topic?  quantessd   Mar-30-08 02:40 AM   #21 
  - This was a fourteen-year-old kid.  NanceGreggs   Mar-30-08 02:20 AM   #17 
  - One of the saddest parts of our society in my honest opinion  donheld   Mar-30-08 02:59 AM   #27 
  - I'm afraid as a society we find it easier to toss  JerseygirlCT   Mar-30-08 09:37 PM   #105 
  - I answered with a 'no'  malakai2   Mar-30-08 03:02 AM   #28 
  - thank you...  kevinbgoode   Mar-30-08 03:26 AM   #35 
  - I am not advocating that he be spared the consequences ...  NanceGreggs   Mar-30-08 08:04 PM   #85 
     - And I am saying that the premeditation suggests otherwise  malakai2   Mar-30-08 09:29 PM   #101 
        - And therein lies the problem ...  NanceGreggs   Mar-30-08 09:41 PM   #109 
           - Honestly, their brains just don't even work the way an  JerseygirlCT   Mar-30-08 09:52 PM   #112 
  - Well, if he's a kid, then his parents are responsible, aren't they?  kevinbgoode   Mar-30-08 03:10 AM   #31 
  - The parents, the extended family and friends who taught  JerseygirlCT   Mar-30-08 09:39 PM   #106 
  - I agree with you Nance...... up to a point  tkmorris   Mar-30-08 03:12 AM   #33 
  - You are so right in what you say here  Mind_your_head   Mar-30-08 03:26 AM   #34 
  - I'm heartened that there is someone out there who sees it too  tkmorris   Mar-30-08 03:36 AM   #37 
  - I completely agree. Why aren't Democratic presidential candidates saying these things?  DutchLiberal   Mar-30-08 05:18 AM   #47 
  - They do? That's very, very disappointing to read. nt  JerseygirlCT   Mar-30-08 09:40 PM   #107 
  - US Capitol Punishment differs from European Capitol Punishment  Hottest Housewife   Mar-31-08 08:01 AM   #129 
     - But there's the problem: if they are not willing to lead, nothing will ever change.  DutchLiberal   Mar-31-08 02:33 PM   #147 
  - Well stated, tkmorris  Echo In Light   Mar-30-08 08:48 AM   #55 
  - Nance, I like you, but this is absolute bollocks.  Chovexani   Mar-30-08 02:22 PM   #75 
  - If I may?  NanceGreggs   Mar-30-08 08:19 PM   #87 
     - Yet More "Boys Will Be Boys".  Toasterlad   Mar-30-08 09:56 PM   #113 
        - Jesus H. Christmas ...  NanceGreggs   Mar-30-08 10:16 PM   #115 
           - Indeed. You're Safe From Me.  Toasterlad   Mar-30-08 10:35 PM   #117 
              - When anyone talks about ...  NanceGreggs   Mar-30-08 10:40 PM   #118 
                 - Funny....I Thought The Danger Lies With the Madmen With the Guns.  Toasterlad   Mar-30-08 11:00 PM   #120 
                 - Yeah, you have a "cause" for your hatred.  NanceGreggs   Mar-30-08 11:12 PM   #121 
                    - Wow.  Toasterlad   Mar-30-08 11:24 PM   #122 
                    - Instilling disappointment in someone who thinks ...  NanceGreggs   Mar-30-08 11:33 PM   #123 
                    - How dare you  dsc   Mar-31-08 08:38 AM   #134 
                    - There is nothing inhuman about putting down an unfixable sociopath.  chixydix   Mar-31-08 10:47 AM   #145 
                 - Rabid animals at least have the excuse of a viral infection.  Hottest Housewife   Mar-31-08 08:15 AM   #131 
  - I remember when I was 14, yes.  Withywindle   Mar-31-08 02:16 AM   #126 
     - Exactly -- the "boys will be boys" mentality of some is appalling  LostinVA   Mar-31-08 10:20 AM   #144 
        - To me, letting them off on basis of age is an insult  Withywindle   Mar-31-08 11:44 PM   #184 
  - I'm against the death penalty, period  Hippo_Tron   Mar-30-08 02:54 AM   #25 
  - your arguments against the dealth penalty are old, tired, and wrong  provis99   Mar-30-08 03:12 AM   #32 
  - I'll bite  tkmorris   Mar-30-08 03:33 AM   #36 
  - Well, issue #1...  malakai2   Mar-30-08 03:47 AM   #39 
  - And issue #2...  malakai2   Mar-30-08 04:20 AM   #42 
  - A response  varkam   Mar-30-08 04:38 AM   #43 
  - i am all for the death penalty  selador   Mar-30-08 03:47 AM   #38 
  - How did the kid get a GUN into the school?  Elspeth   Mar-30-08 03:53 AM   #40 
  - DU's a little slow on the uptake, this sadness occurred in my state a month & a half ago  bridgit   Mar-30-08 03:55 AM   #41 
  - A DU'er who gives such an answer, has no business being on a progressive board.  DutchLiberal   Mar-30-08 05:05 AM   #44 
  - Thanks, Mr. Moral Conscience!  Toasterlad   Mar-30-08 08:03 AM   #51 
     - If you are the one who said those horrible things about the kid, you alreadt ARE like a Republican,  DutchLiberal   Mar-30-08 05:38 PM   #78 
        - Yes, 10 Years In Prison For a Murdered Gay Teen Is Much More Democratic.  Toasterlad   Mar-30-08 07:27 PM   #80 
           - No, throwing away a TEEN like trash because he got brainwashed by a corrupt society is YOUR idea of  DutchLiberal   Mar-30-08 07:42 PM   #82 
              - The Teen IS Trash. How's About Instead of Killing Him, We Send Him to Live With You?  Toasterlad   Mar-30-08 08:04 PM   #86 
                 - It's about time you took some anger management classes.  DutchLiberal   Mar-31-08 02:35 PM   #148 
                    - I'm Not Claiming Any Such Thing. YOU'RE the One Who Brought Morality Into This.  Toasterlad   Mar-31-08 02:50 PM   #151 
                    - The dirtiest trick in the extreme right's book and you use it. Congratulations!  DutchLiberal   Mar-31-08 02:58 PM   #154 
                       - Silly Dutch Person! Republicans Don't Care About Gay Kids!  Toasterlad   Mar-31-08 03:11 PM   #156 
                          - You're disgusting. Enjoy my ignore list.  DutchLiberal   Mar-31-08 04:37 PM   #163 
                          - Enjoy Your Piety, Compassionless Jerk.  Toasterlad   Mar-31-08 07:41 PM   #173 
                             - The irony is Stephen Colbert (from your sig) would roast and despise you...  DutchLiberal   Apr-01-08 05:02 PM   #192 
                                - Aren't You Supposed to Be Ignoring Me?  Toasterlad   Apr-01-08 05:52 PM   #195 
                                   - Well, I never pushed the ignore-button before... But you are SUCH a little pest, that I HAVE to...  DutchLiberal   Apr-02-08 05:43 AM   #197 
                          - You appear to have a penchant  LanternWaste   Mar-31-08 05:22 PM   #167 
                             - He Said He'd Give The Kid 10 Years.  Toasterlad   Mar-31-08 07:29 PM   #170 
                                - only phrase of yours on this board that is suspect  LanternWaste   Apr-01-08 08:49 AM   #191 
                                   - It's Called Sarcasm. You Might Want to Look Into It. Or Did You Need the Stupid Red Cloud?  Toasterlad   Apr-01-08 05:57 PM   #196 
                                      - It's also called hyperbole.  LanternWaste   Apr-02-08 08:27 AM   #199 
                    - How odd that in all your rhetoric you have yet to volunteer to have this kid come live with you.  chixydix   Mar-31-08 05:02 PM   #165 
                       - Possibly the poster...  LanternWaste   Mar-31-08 05:23 PM   #168 
                       - This is nonsense. Where did I advocate such a thing? Do I have to respond to absurd questions?  DutchLiberal   Apr-01-08 05:06 PM   #193 
  - I'd say give him 10 years in prison and good counseling.  DutchLiberal   Mar-30-08 05:07 AM   #45 
  - Justice is partly counted by how we treat those we despise  booley   Mar-30-08 05:56 AM   #48 
  - life in prison, of course  aikoaiko   Mar-30-08 08:42 AM   #53 
  - Life in Prison with no parole  dsc   Mar-30-08 08:48 AM   #54 
  - That killing sent a message:  asthmaticeog   Mar-30-08 08:54 AM   #56 
  - I know. It's always tempting to respond in kind, especially when you consider how...  Echo In Light   Mar-30-08 09:07 AM   #59 
  - Fry 'em up.  AlertLurker   Mar-30-08 09:06 AM   #58 
  - Emotional reactions  Dorian Gray   Mar-30-08 09:09 AM   #60 
  - I genuinely don't know, but I do know  ulysses   Mar-30-08 09:09 AM   #61 
  - Box punishment with intensive therapy. No death penalty! NEVER!  lonestarnot   Mar-30-08 09:54 AM   #66 
  - i don't have a problem with humane execution of this person  pitohui   Mar-30-08 10:52 AM   #67 
  - Gulag  slackmaster   Mar-30-08 10:54 AM   #68 
  - This event is so disturbing...  marions ghost   Mar-30-08 11:01 AM   #70 
  - It's a difficult case with no easy answers...  SidDithers   Mar-30-08 11:23 AM   #72 
  - Yup. In a better world, thought would be given to what the best outcome at this point...  BlooInBloo   Mar-30-08 08:23 PM   #90 
  - Two choices.  roamer65   Mar-30-08 01:56 PM   #74 
  - Would you want a murderer at your deathbed?  Hottest Housewife   Mar-31-08 08:33 AM   #132 
     - So Very Well Said.  Toasterlad   Mar-31-08 08:35 AM   #133 
  - Just send the fucker to jail. That is where he belongs.  applegrove   Mar-30-08 04:38 PM   #76 
  - No idea, where do you start with a case like this?  Rex   Mar-30-08 04:39 PM   #77 
  - Yup.  BlooInBloo   Mar-30-08 08:20 PM   #88 
  - He needs to be sent away for life.  alarimer   Mar-30-08 07:08 PM   #79 
  - I agree - I think he needs therapy though and I don't think you get  whutgives   Mar-30-08 09:41 PM   #110 
  - Murder is murder. Whether done by an individual or the state.  Tierra_y_Libertad   Mar-30-08 07:35 PM   #81 
  - He should be tried as a minor  ncabot22   Mar-30-08 07:47 PM   #83 
  - i couldn't agree more. i think it's DISGUSTING when minors are charged as adults.  QuestionAll   Mar-31-08 10:21 PM   #180 
  - I Just Don't Agree With The Death Penalty  Irishonly   Mar-30-08 07:55 PM   #84 
  - I completely agree with you  JerseygirlCT   Mar-30-08 08:22 PM   #89 
  - I could care less. I'm more concerned about the millions of other violent, anti-gay minors  readmoreoften   Mar-30-08 08:43 PM   #93 
  - This is a tragic story  malaise   Mar-30-08 09:20 PM   #99 
  - I am pro death penalty, but only if there's proof, and never for kids  Firespirit   Mar-30-08 09:27 PM   #100 
  - Father forgive them..  Fumesucker   Mar-30-08 09:32 PM   #104 
  - forgiveness is for the victim(s)  mitchtv   Mar-30-08 10:02 PM   #114 
     - I find it interesting  Fumesucker   Mar-30-08 10:45 PM   #119 
        - THAT is a fact. You can't convince supporters of capital punishment with facts.  DutchLiberal   Mar-31-08 02:39 PM   #149 
           - Yes, obviously it is a fact  Fumesucker   Mar-31-08 07:30 PM   #171 
  - If he's found guilty by a jury, then he should get 45 years to life with no parole.  MilesColtrane   Mar-30-08 10:17 PM   #116 
  - Juries are bought and paid for; they get manipulated, starting during pre-selection.  DutchLiberal   Apr-01-08 05:15 PM   #194 
  - He should be treated far less harshly than an adult who committed the same crime.  Donald Ian Rankin   Mar-31-08 01:57 AM   #124 
  - The only blood of a 14 year-old in this thread is that of the victim.  Hottest Housewife   Mar-31-08 08:39 AM   #135 
  - No, that's simply not true.  Donald Ian Rankin   Mar-31-08 09:57 AM   #142 
  - Give it up. The people want vengeance, not a rehabilitated productive member of society.  DutchLiberal   Mar-31-08 02:42 PM   #150 
  - He should face the hangman.  MrSlayer   Mar-31-08 02:32 AM   #127 
  - Life in prison--no chance of parole.  Vidar   Mar-31-08 08:05 AM   #130 
  - He's a sociopath and a danger to society -- he should never get out  LostinVA   Mar-31-08 09:50 AM   #136 
  - I agree. He should spend his entire life considering what he did.  PelosiFan   Mar-31-08 10:02 AM   #143 
  - I grew up gay in the town next door to this one.  CitizenRob   Mar-31-08 03:06 PM   #155 
  - Look at the thinking of the monsters in this county...  CitizenRob   Mar-31-08 03:51 PM   #159 
  - cripes that is horrilble  dsc   Mar-31-08 04:06 PM   #161 
  - Fry him.  truebrit71   Mar-31-08 03:15 PM   #157 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Mar-31-08 03:20 PM   #158 
  - He's 14. If he spends a decade in prison, it will be too much.  Xithras   Mar-31-08 04:49 PM   #164 
  - bullshit  dsc   Mar-31-08 05:44 PM   #169 
  - "Sorry for the dead kid"  Toasterlad   Mar-31-08 07:34 PM   #172 
     - Murder is murder is murder...  Fumesucker   Mar-31-08 08:37 PM   #174 
        - .  Toasterlad   Mar-31-08 08:41 PM   #176 
           - Here is my point.  Fumesucker   Mar-31-08 11:03 PM   #181 
              - I am against the DP  dsc   Mar-31-08 11:07 PM   #182 
                 - I didn't say anything was proven  Fumesucker   Mar-31-08 11:27 PM   #183 
  - Try the parents and lock them up. Kid shouldn't be killed because  whutgives   Mar-31-08 08:40 PM   #175 
  - I don't see the DP for a 14 yo  mitchtv   Mar-31-08 10:11 PM   #178 
  - he should be charged as the minor that he is.  QuestionAll   Mar-31-08 10:19 PM   #179 
  - Nuh uh.  Withywindle   Mar-31-08 11:54 PM   #185 
     - uh huh  QuestionAll   Apr-01-08 08:47 AM   #190 
  - I'll forgo the castration suggestion quoted by the OP, but  Zavulon   Apr-01-08 12:07 AM   #186 
  - I wouldn't shed a tear if they executed this 14 yo  atal   Apr-01-08 03:14 AM   #188 
  - Facts, figures and statistics from Europe prove otherwise.  DutchLiberal   Apr-02-08 05:46 AM   #198 
  - life in prison, at a minimum. nt  VotesForWomen   Apr-01-08 03:14 AM   #189 

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