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Reply #166: Yup. Get the beliefs out of it, period [View All]

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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #160
166. Yup. Get the beliefs out of it, period
If you personally cannot offer all the care needed, it is your *personal* obligation to find a practice that suits your own beliefs. No patient should ever have to suffer because of a doctor's beliefs.
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  -Pennsylvania bill: Allow doctors to deny treatment, medicine on religious grounds havocmom  Feb-18-08 06:36 AM   #0 
  - Then put in a clause that requires the "religious" doctor to pay for any child's entire life needs  Rabrrrrrr   Feb-18-08 06:45 AM   #1 
  - The bill basically legalizes discrimination  havocmom   Feb-18-08 06:57 AM   #5 
  - Working to save a life does not violate the Sabbath  UncleSepp   Feb-19-08 03:37 PM   #192 
     - If a doctor feels someone else shouldn't be doing THEIR work on the sabbath,  havocmom   Feb-19-08 09:25 PM   #198 
        - Then that doctor is practicing no known religion.  UncleSepp   Feb-20-08 02:45 PM   #208 
  - Rabrrrrrr, I keep remembering articles on implanting ape embryos in male apes  havocmom   Feb-18-08 07:51 PM   #184 
  - Do you believe in the right of a soldier  Sadie4629   Feb-18-08 06:54 AM   #2 
  - I think it's more complicated than that  elizfeelinggreat   Feb-18-08 06:57 AM   #4 
  - So the SOURCE of their morality matters  Sadie4629   Feb-18-08 07:09 AM   #12 
     - huh?  elizfeelinggreat   Feb-18-08 07:19 AM   #17 
     - again  elizfeelinggreat   Feb-18-08 07:22 AM   #18 
        - Yeah, that makes it clearer  Sadie4629   Feb-18-08 07:35 AM   #24 
           - fyi  elizfeelinggreat   Feb-18-08 07:48 AM   #29 
              - There is a huge difference between a church and a doctor  Sadie4629   Feb-18-08 07:56 AM   #34 
                 - ER - rape- morning after pill  havocmom   Feb-18-08 08:10 AM   #43 
                 - I guess I wouldn't want  Sadie4629   Feb-18-08 08:14 AM   #48 
                    - we'll never know how you would feel unless the issue came up personally  havocmom   Feb-18-08 08:29 AM   #57 
                    - And what about...  mentalsolstice   Feb-18-08 11:30 AM   #122 
                       - you do understand the many facets of the problems with this bill  havocmom   Feb-18-08 11:34 AM   #127 
                    - Prescribing a contraceptive pill is not "performing a procedure."  yardwork   Feb-18-08 10:50 AM   #107 
                    - A doctor can give me a pill, and I don't give a flying fuck how he feels about it.  Crunchy Frog   Feb-18-08 12:32 PM   #149 
                 - how presumptuous of you  elizfeelinggreat   Feb-19-08 09:50 PM   #200 
  - a soldier can refuse an ILLEGAL order  havocmom   Feb-18-08 06:58 AM   #6 
  - What about conscientious objecters?  Sadie4629   Feb-18-08 07:13 AM   #15 
     - They haven't been licensed to treat all people who need care  havocmom   Feb-18-08 07:24 AM   #19 
     - At one time  Sadie4629   Feb-18-08 07:51 AM   #30 
        - IF you are raped and need a pill to ensure your attacker can't use your body another 9 months  havocmom   Feb-18-08 07:55 AM   #33 
           - If the rape victim is so young she can't drive  Sadie4629   Feb-18-08 08:02 AM   #38 
           - Sometimes, the father is the perp  havocmom   Feb-18-08 08:56 AM   #68 
           - I'm surprised that  Sadie4629   Feb-18-08 09:32 AM   #76 
              - It wasn't needed until you brought up parents as an option for minors  havocmom   Feb-18-08 10:06 AM   #90 
                 - This Sadie person is off her rocker...  Solon   Feb-18-08 10:31 AM   #98 
                    - Don't go making assumptions...  havocmom   Feb-18-08 10:43 AM   #103 
           - You assume too much.  uppityperson   Feb-20-08 02:33 PM   #202 
           - You are aware that there is more than one doctor in the US?  skater314159   Feb-18-08 10:50 AM   #108 
              - So, are you saying this law would be OK with you? nm  dicksteele   Feb-18-08 11:04 AM   #115 
              - Read my other posts in this thread. nm  skater314159   Feb-18-08 11:20 AM   #121 
                 - I did. That's why I asked you that simple question. After reading the new ones, my question remains.  dicksteele   Feb-18-08 11:36 AM   #128 
              - I live in a remote county with NO doctors  havocmom   Feb-18-08 11:43 AM   #131 
     - There are no conscientious objectors on the battlefield.  Rabrrrrrr   Feb-18-08 07:25 AM   #20 
     - One assumes they won't be signing on to be soldiers  JerseygirlCT   Feb-18-08 01:12 PM   #155 
  - As long as a woman can seek treatment from another source...  WillBowden   Feb-18-08 07:05 AM   #9 
  - Where does it say this occurs in an ER?  Sadie4629   Feb-18-08 07:12 AM   #14 
  - That's what this law is totally about - giving ER docs the right not to give medication  Rabrrrrrr   Feb-18-08 07:31 AM   #23 
  - Are you sure that they don't tell a rape victim  Sadie4629   Feb-18-08 07:41 AM   #26 
     - Yes.  Rabrrrrrr   Feb-18-08 08:43 AM   #63 
     - Yes  rockymountaindem   Feb-18-08 09:25 AM   #74 
     - They often do not  JerseygirlCT   Feb-18-08 01:13 PM   #157 
     - Bravo to those who worked to get care for women and get the church to act  havocmom   Feb-18-08 01:20 PM   #161 
        - Against Lieberman's wishes, no surprise  JerseygirlCT   Feb-18-08 01:26 PM   #168 
     - Yes. "a lot" does not = all. eom  uppityperson   Feb-20-08 02:35 PM   #203 
  - What about a woman having a miscarriage?  Crunchy Frog   Feb-18-08 12:43 PM   #151 
  - Women of limited means in small communities where doctor choices are limited  havocmom   Feb-18-08 07:28 AM   #21 
     - There are no abortion providers  Sadie4629   Feb-18-08 07:47 AM   #27 
        - Thank you for spelling correction. So far, the only logical point you have made here  havocmom   Feb-18-08 07:57 AM   #36 
        - Religion vs. conscience  Sadie4629   Feb-18-08 08:04 AM   #39 
           - The bill gives cover to religious arguments against certain treatments  havocmom   Feb-18-08 08:12 AM   #46 
              - I re-read the OP  Sadie4629   Feb-18-08 08:18 AM   #50 
                 - Then...  WillBowden   Feb-18-08 08:48 AM   #66 
        - And a woman who's in ER after a rape, at a Catholic hospital because it's the only one in the county  Rabrrrrrr   Feb-18-08 08:48 AM   #65 
           - I have no problem with a provider, in a non-emergency  JerseygirlCT   Feb-18-08 01:16 PM   #158 
  - a woman can't always seek treatment from another source...  QuestionAll   Feb-18-08 07:51 AM   #32 
  - The bill doesn't say  Sadie4629   Feb-18-08 08:07 AM   #41 
     - Referrals do NO good to large numbers of women who have limited access to care  havocmom   Feb-18-08 08:13 AM   #47 
  - Why don't Christian Scientists and Jehovah's Witnesses go to medical school?  blondeatlast   Feb-18-08 08:29 AM   #56 
  - the blond shoots... she scores....  havocmom   Feb-18-08 09:10 AM   #71 
  - Thanks. As a blood recipient, I've been asked--NOT KIDDING--  blondeatlast   Feb-18-08 10:38 AM   #101 
     - My doctor asked me  geardaddy   Feb-19-08 03:10 PM   #190 
  - There is a good documentary about that...  skater314159   Feb-18-08 10:57 AM   #111 
  - Those aren't medical treatments, though. I'm a lifelong insulin-dependent diabetic--  blondeatlast   Feb-18-08 11:55 AM   #139 
  - Yes, and that would also solve the problem of high medical costs  Crunchy Frog   Feb-18-08 12:55 PM   #153 
  - That's a fucking stupid argument...  Solon   Feb-18-08 09:43 AM   #82 
  - It's not easy to seek treatment from other sources in many communities.  yardwork   Feb-18-08 10:48 AM   #106 
  - absolutely right!  elizfeelinggreat   Feb-18-08 06:55 AM   #3 
  - Thanks for seeing the point of OP, elizfeelinggreat!  havocmom   Feb-18-08 07:00 AM   #8 
     - I'll be away, too  elizfeelinggreat   Feb-18-08 07:07 AM   #11 
  - This one will be worth keeping an eye on  End Of The Road   Feb-18-08 07:00 AM   #7 
  - Writing a scrip for birth control pills does not take a specialist.  havocmom   Feb-18-08 07:06 AM   #10 
  - I agree!  moose65   Feb-18-08 07:11 AM   #13 
     - How many stories in recent years about Pharmacists who refuse to fill scripts?  havocmom   Feb-18-08 07:51 AM   #31 
  - I'm religiously opposed to war in Iraq  Red Zelda   Feb-18-08 07:15 AM   #16 
  - You didn't go to school to get a license to practice a profession of paying taxes though  havocmom   Feb-18-08 07:29 AM   #22 
  - Recommend for outrage. What century is this? nt  babylonsister   Feb-18-08 07:39 AM   #25 
  - Does it feel like we are living in the pre-quel to The Handmaid's Tale?  havocmom   Feb-18-08 08:01 AM   #37 
  - Can the Doctors be fired for the refusal?  Wizard777   Feb-18-08 07:48 AM   #28 
  - This bill, if it became law, would protect the doctors  havocmom   Feb-18-08 08:06 AM   #40 
     - ah, and there's an interesting question  northzax   Feb-19-08 01:23 PM   #186 
        - Laws to protect pharmacists work to protect them from employers.  havocmom   Feb-20-08 05:14 PM   #212 
  - Hypothetical  chemp   Feb-18-08 07:57 AM   #35 
  - Ecellant point!  havocmom   Feb-18-08 08:08 AM   #42 
  - Wow. Talk about a strawman  Sadie4629   Feb-18-08 08:12 AM   #45 
  - Not a strawman, but a logical extension of the agenda  havocmom   Feb-18-08 08:18 AM   #49 
  - Yeah, by the way--  Sadie4629   Feb-18-08 08:26 AM   #55 
  - Thank you for keeping this thread kicked  havocmom   Feb-18-08 08:41 AM   #62 
     - As far as logic goes--  Sadie4629   Feb-18-08 09:23 AM   #73 
        - Misrepresent much?  havocmom   Feb-18-08 09:32 AM   #75 
        - That woman  Sadie4629   Feb-18-08 09:41 AM   #80 
        - HE exsited. And didn't face anything beyond having to change employers  havocmom   Feb-18-08 10:02 AM   #88 
        - Violation of HIPPA law  skater314159   Feb-18-08 11:05 AM   #116 
           - pre-hippa  havocmom   Feb-18-08 11:36 AM   #129 
        - so, do you support this idiotic proposal?  noiretblu   Feb-18-08 09:39 AM   #79 
           - I support  Sadie4629   Feb-18-08 09:46 AM   #84 
              - We all support the right to follow consciences  havocmom   Feb-18-08 10:10 AM   #91 
              - no, it is not "different"  noiretblu   Feb-18-08 11:32 AM   #124 
              - WHAT?  kimmylavin   Feb-19-08 02:13 PM   #188 
              - What if a dr denied treatment on a smoker who had emphysema?  uppityperson   Feb-20-08 02:43 PM   #205 
  - Logical?  skater314159   Feb-18-08 11:02 AM   #114 
     - It doesn't have to be PP though...  Solon   Feb-18-08 12:05 PM   #144 
        - Aww Jeeezus...  skater314159   Feb-18-08 01:54 PM   #172 
  - For all your brilliance you don't seem to understand what that term means  uppityperson   Feb-20-08 02:39 PM   #204 
  - In many states  Sadie4629   Feb-18-08 08:24 AM   #53 
  - just because their are stupid laws in some states  noiretblu   Feb-18-08 09:42 AM   #81 
     - Some abortion procedures  Sadie4629   Feb-18-08 09:55 AM   #86 
        - That's not the argument, thanks for playing though...  Solon   Feb-18-08 09:57 AM   #87 
        - The statement  Sadie4629   Feb-18-08 10:16 AM   #93 
           - If the purpose is to delay the procedure until it can't be legally done anymore...  Solon   Feb-18-08 10:20 AM   #94 
           - Most are done in 1 visit. nt  uppityperson   Feb-20-08 02:45 PM   #207 
        - most abortions are done in one visit eom  noiretblu   Feb-18-08 11:30 AM   #123 
  - Then Planned Parenthood needs a better HR dept.  skater314159   Feb-18-08 11:00 AM   #113 
     - The violator of the files was at a private doctor's office  havocmom   Feb-18-08 11:46 AM   #132 
  - Didn't this start with WFRA?  JTFrog   Feb-18-08 08:11 AM   #44 
  - Yep, and a lot of us got laughed at when we said THAT was just the beginning  havocmom   Feb-18-08 08:20 AM   #52 
  - Some religions object to organ donation and blood transfusion  Firespirit   Feb-18-08 08:18 AM   #51 
  - Weeeelll, reproductive service limits only seem to effect a certain part of the population  havocmom   Feb-18-08 08:24 AM   #54 
  - I can't say  Firespirit   Feb-18-08 08:32 AM   #61 
  - I thought it was the Jehovah's Witness  left is right   Feb-18-08 08:47 AM   #64 
  - If I tell them I am an Atheist will they refuse me care based on their beliefs?  sarcasmo   Feb-18-08 08:29 AM   #58 
  - That's what it looks like. And if you worked on the Sabbath and got hurt...  havocmom   Feb-18-08 08:32 AM   #60 
  - Or if someone has an STD and is unmarried  suffragette   Feb-18-08 01:50 PM   #171 
  - Or a gay man  WillBowden   Feb-18-08 08:52 AM   #67 
  - Another execellant point. Sorry I missed that branch of the agenda!  havocmom   Feb-18-08 09:00 AM   #70 
  - I think  Sadie4629   Feb-18-08 09:50 AM   #85 
  - IF the bill passes and is upheld, there will be more limits  havocmom   Feb-18-08 10:04 AM   #89 
  - The slippery slope argument goes both ways, you know  Sadie4629   Feb-18-08 10:11 AM   #92 
     - WTF? Nobody is forcing women to get care or pills?  havocmom   Feb-18-08 10:23 AM   #95 
     - D&X procedure may be appalling, but so is open heart surgery...  Solon   Feb-18-08 10:25 AM   #96 
        - Don't try to confuse poster with facts  havocmom   Feb-18-08 10:38 AM   #100 
           - Oh silly me, I thought she may actually want to learn...  Solon   Feb-18-08 11:58 AM   #141 
  - If I'm not married, doctor can refuse me birth control. Like back in the old days.  uppityperson   Feb-20-08 02:49 PM   #210 
     - Already happened in some states with pharmacists refusing to fill lawful scripts  havocmom   Feb-20-08 05:26 PM   #214 
  - Obese and diabetic. Smoker with emphysema. Elderly with heart problem.  uppityperson   Feb-20-08 02:46 PM   #209 
     - Sorry, I feel it's god's will that you are fat, sick, old... no soup for you  havocmom   Feb-20-08 05:29 PM   #216 
  - Wonder how many of these doctors don't want to prescribe Viagra? nt  raccoon   Feb-18-08 08:31 AM   #59 
  - or perform vasectomies. eom  MindPilot   Feb-18-08 08:56 AM   #69 
  - If I remember correctly, my Dad had to shop around for a non-Catholic doctor...  Solon   Feb-18-08 12:02 PM   #143 
  - VIAGRA VIAGRA VIAGRA -- good question!!  IcyPeas   Feb-19-08 03:26 PM   #191 
  - Does this mean that patients don't have to pay the bill if their religion forbids it?  DFW   Feb-18-08 09:20 AM   #72 
  - Damn, I am having an epiphany and YOU are my prophet  havocmom   Feb-18-08 09:34 AM   #77 
  - Dammit, What About MY Rights?  zorahopkins   Feb-18-08 09:35 AM   #78 
  - I see by your profile, that you are a female.  havocmom   Feb-18-08 09:43 AM   #83 
     - Sharia law validated by the U.S.  RainDog   Feb-18-08 10:25 AM   #97 
  - This is why I am so very excited  Bluenorthwest   Feb-18-08 10:33 AM   #99 
  - PA has always had a strong stand for religious freedom...  skater314159   Feb-18-08 10:42 AM   #102 
  - I am not about forcing care on anyone who does not want it  havocmom   Feb-18-08 10:47 AM   #105 
  - Ok... Ammendment review...  skater314159   Feb-18-08 11:20 AM   #120 
     - That's a bunch of bullshit, actually...  Solon   Feb-18-08 11:50 AM   #136 
        - Exactly so. nm  dicksteele   Feb-18-08 12:31 PM   #148 
        - What?  skater314159   Feb-18-08 01:59 PM   #174 
           - I'm using it as an example...  Solon   Feb-18-08 02:11 PM   #175 
           - Jesus Christ. Are you stupidly oversensitive much?  Rabrrrrrr   Feb-19-08 07:00 PM   #196 
  - This allows doctors to NOT treat people who need treatment  JerseygirlCT   Feb-18-08 01:21 PM   #163 
  - What at least one person here is missing is a rather interesting unintended  Cerridwen   Feb-18-08 10:46 AM   #104 
  - Or, if I am hiring, I can use litmus test to hire only people of one faith?  havocmom   Feb-18-08 10:51 AM   #109 
  - Pretty much. It happens at private schools and (if there are any left) private  Cerridwen   Feb-18-08 10:54 AM   #110 
     - If I need an ambulance (or the fire department)  havocmom   Feb-18-08 11:32 AM   #125 
        - I want a secular everything, except for churches, of course. :D  Cerridwen   Feb-18-08 11:51 AM   #137 
           - May I suggest you post that to your journal, that we may refer others to it often?  havocmom   Feb-18-08 11:57 AM   #140 
              - Done. And thank you!  Cerridwen   Feb-18-08 12:00 PM   #142 
  - Well, actually, if you are unwilling to provide the care required  JerseygirlCT   Feb-18-08 01:23 PM   #165 
     - I completely agree. And in this day and age of profit, if I'm paying you,  Cerridwen   Feb-18-08 01:59 PM   #173 
  - Want to see that law, if passed  vpilot   Feb-18-08 10:57 AM   #112 
  - DFW post upthread re a new religious order...  havocmom   Feb-18-08 11:48 AM   #134 
     - At the top.........  DFW   Feb-18-08 06:03 PM   #180 
  - Oh, the chill I just felt go up and down my spine  Luna_Chick   Feb-18-08 11:09 AM   #117 
  - Grand post  havocmom   Feb-18-08 11:50 AM   #135 
  - Question here...  skater314159   Feb-18-08 11:17 AM   #118 
  - Just a quick question  Luna_Chick   Feb-18-08 11:33 AM   #126 
  - #1 most likely violates the Civil Rights Act...  Solon   Feb-18-08 12:13 PM   #145 
  - I can see Liberty Univ. and other fundy schools  mentalsolstice   Feb-18-08 11:19 AM   #119 
  - They've been cranking out lawyers like crazy, haven't they?  havocmom   Feb-18-08 11:55 AM   #138 
  - Bullseye! That's precisely what is behind this, I'm very willing to bet. nt  blondeatlast   Feb-18-08 04:37 PM   #178 
  - This means...  jmowreader   Feb-18-08 11:37 AM   #130 
  - Yep  Luna_Chick   Feb-18-08 11:47 AM   #133 
  - A Physican is suppose to be advocate for his patient, not  girl_interrupted   Feb-18-08 12:19 PM   #146 
  - And--you can have your immense government-subsidized student loans FORGIVEN  blondeatlast   Feb-18-08 06:24 PM   #182 
     - Ooooo, I missed that facet totally! Good catch.  havocmom   Feb-18-08 06:29 PM   #183 
  - Doctors should also be allowed to refuse to treat priapism  Crunchy Frog   Feb-18-08 12:27 PM   #147 
  - Or...  Luna_Chick   Feb-18-08 12:39 PM   #150 
  - We're finally civilized enough that refusing to treat black people is considered heinous, but ...  Hekate   Feb-18-08 12:46 PM   #152 
  - They always have a choice: leave the practice  JerseygirlCT   Feb-18-08 01:11 PM   #154 
  - Bravo! And what about VD? How would we feel if some doctors wouldn't treat that  havocmom   Feb-18-08 01:18 PM   #160 
     - Yup. Get the beliefs out of it, period  JerseygirlCT   Feb-18-08 01:25 PM   #166 
  - OK, I gave ya all enough time, and nobody posted: timing of this bill? PA primary Friday  havocmom   Feb-18-08 01:13 PM   #156 
  - Ah--I think we've met the fringe issue for 2008...  blondeatlast   Feb-18-08 01:20 PM   #162 
     - Well, there was rumor PA would be this years Florida/Ohio in the GE  havocmom   Feb-18-08 01:28 PM   #169 
  - Triage, cadavers, life-or-death decisions and the possibility of mistakes--  blondeatlast   Feb-18-08 01:17 PM   #159 
  - There ya go, bein all logical and all again  havocmom   Feb-18-08 01:22 PM   #164 
     - Sorry. Stuck at home with the flu and waiting for a repairman--so  blondeatlast   Feb-18-08 01:25 PM   #167 
     - Me, with fresh chicken soup in the fridge  havocmom   Feb-18-08 01:48 PM   #170 
     - I've cross-posted a link to this thread in the Pro-choice group.  smokey nj   Feb-19-08 02:50 PM   #189 
        - Thanks for that cross post. This is too big to stay in one forum  havocmom   Feb-19-08 09:16 PM   #197 
  - Kickin' to keep it going N/T  Luna_Chick   Feb-18-08 04:00 PM   #176 
  - a kick from the chick, cool  havocmom   Feb-18-08 04:18 PM   #177 
     - Check this one out...  dajoki   Feb-19-08 05:37 PM   #194 
  - Story about this subject...  dajoki   Feb-18-08 05:59 PM   #179 
  - An ER physician should not be permitted to let his own morals subvert his duties. He can find anothe  blondeatlast   Feb-18-08 06:06 PM   #181 
     - And I believe...  dajoki   Feb-18-08 09:14 PM   #185 
        - Word. nt  blondeatlast   Feb-19-08 03:38 PM   #193 
        - Nor should they receive tax-free, non-profit status.  Rabrrrrrr   Feb-19-08 06:45 PM   #195 
  - when religious trumps medicine -- an oath to the religious oligarchy or the practice of medicine  Supersedeas   Feb-19-08 02:07 PM   #187 
  - What makes you think Democrats won't support this?  depakid   Feb-19-08 09:35 PM   #199 
  - any health care provider that allows their religion to trump their duty to the public...  HuffleClaw   Feb-19-08 09:54 PM   #201 
  - The freedom from administrative liability seems to me the biggest problem here.  mondo joe   Feb-20-08 02:45 PM   #206 
  - Cool, huh? Don't you wish YOU could pick and choose what duties of your job to do?  havocmom   Feb-20-08 05:32 PM   #217 
     - This law basically is a way to give special rights based on religion, including  mondo joe   Feb-20-08 06:10 PM   #221 
  - If I'm unmarried, contraception can be denied me.  uppityperson   Feb-20-08 02:53 PM   #211 
  - I am so sick of this nonsense  BuffyTheFundieSlayer   Feb-20-08 05:22 PM   #213 
  - That's it in a nutshell, Buffy!  havocmom   Feb-20-08 05:36 PM   #218 
     - The Handmaiden's Tale  BuffyTheFundieSlayer   Feb-20-08 05:41 PM   #219 
  - Is the doctor required to refer to someone who provide necessary treatment?  McCamy Taylor   Feb-20-08 05:29 PM   #215 
  - This is Afghanistan now?  Elspeth   Feb-20-08 06:00 PM   #220 
 

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