aikoaiko
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Thu Dec-27-07 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #36 |
| 43. because self-defense of yourself and community is of primary importance to many |
|
I see your starting point is "guns are bad and civilian ownership needs to be restricted" (oversimplified, I know) and then you interpret the 2nd amendment. But if don't start with your premise, then the 2nd reads very differently. Because of the differences in our premises (mine is that they are useful tools for civilian self-defense), we will probably never agree on the 2nd amendment.
What you really need to do, in order to get where you want to go, is repeal the 2nd amendment. Good luck with that.
What little the courts of have said about the 2nd is that the 2nd protects the rights of people to own firearms that would enable one to show up ready to fight in militia. This means they're are talking about the firearms allocated to individuals (such as long guns and handguns).
You can own a tank, btw.
|
| -Russ Feingold and Right to Bear Arms --- 2nd Amendment |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 12:06 AM |
#0 |
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I absolutely agree with that interpretation... |
Mythsaje |
Dec-27-07 12:20 AM |
#1 |
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Then why didn't they simply say: "The right of the people to ... |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 12:30 AM |
#3 |
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Because... |
ingac70 |
Dec-27-07 12:32 AM |
#4 |
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You just converted your point to one of COLLECTIVE rights --- |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 12:34 AM |
#9 |
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See post 11. n/t. |
ingac70 |
Dec-27-07 12:52 AM |
#12 |
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That's not a response to COLLECTIVE rights . . . |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 01:01 AM |
#13 |
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Currently, "the militia" is all males between 17 and 45 years old |
krispos42 |
Dec-27-07 03:24 AM |
#28 |
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Yes sir! |
virginia mountainman |
Dec-27-07 12:39 AM |
#11 |
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So only someone between the ages of 17 and 45 can have a gun -- !!! |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 01:04 AM |
#14 |
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..... |
ingac70 |
Dec-27-07 01:39 AM |
#24 |
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Actually No... |
Popol Vuh |
Dec-27-07 03:40 PM |
#48 |
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Excellent post!! |
virginia mountainman |
Dec-29-07 12:19 PM |
#105 |
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The Collective Rights theory demands exclusivity, the Standard Model does not. |
hansberrym |
Dec-28-07 05:10 PM |
#99 |
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Proud to claim Russ Feingold as my own |
sjdnb |
Dec-27-07 12:23 AM |
#2 |
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Think Feingold has shown some real courage --- |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 12:33 AM |
#6 |
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I think he's pretty solid on guns |
maximusveritas |
Dec-27-07 12:35 AM |
#10 |
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Well, he's voted for gun-control measures . . . that seems sane! |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 01:09 AM |
#18 |
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Voting for gun-control measures in and of itself does not indicate sanity |
krispos42 |
Dec-27-07 03:32 AM |
#29 |
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Two reasons people in Wisconsin trust Feingold |
undeterred |
Dec-27-07 01:28 PM |
#34 |
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That's good enough for me |
alarimer |
Dec-29-07 10:27 PM |
#109 |
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We need more like him.. |
virginia mountainman |
Dec-27-07 12:32 AM |
#5 |
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I'm hoping he'll endorse a candidate in the primaries |
maximusveritas |
Dec-27-07 12:33 AM |
#7 |
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I doubt he will be endorsing Hillary --- !!!! |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 01:09 AM |
#19 |
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Its a slow process but we're getting correct on the 2nd. |
aikoaiko |
Dec-27-07 12:33 AM |
#8 |
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Not likely . . . if that's what they intended, they would not have included MILITIA --- |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 01:05 AM |
#16 |
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They intended individuals to keep and bear arms so that people could come together if neccesary |
aikoaiko |
Dec-27-07 01:21 AM |
#20 |
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If INDIVIDUALS have the right to keep and bear arms . . . |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 01:36 AM |
#22 |
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The 2nd doesn't limit the right to keep and bear arms to militia, but it is A reason... |
aikoaiko |
Dec-27-07 01:52 AM |
#26 |
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Maybe you could also correlate those states to gun injuries/fatalities |
Toots |
Dec-27-07 08:20 AM |
#32 |
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If not limited to Militia, then why mention it --- ? |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 01:44 PM |
#36 |
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because self-defense of yourself and community is of primary importance to many |
aikoaiko |
Dec-27-07 03:02 PM |
#43 |
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Rather confused rendering . . . however, when you argue "Militia" you are arguing |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 03:26 PM |
#46 |
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But citizens needed to be armed, individually, in order for the militia to exist. |
aikoaiko |
Dec-27-07 03:31 PM |
#47 |
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At that time, that was the way it went --- but today it is different --- |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 04:24 PM |
#53 |
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Ok this will be my last post in this thread because I think we're mostly done making our points |
aikoaiko |
Dec-28-07 12:45 PM |
#97 |
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try this |
Two Americas |
Dec-27-07 02:27 AM |
#27 |
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I really like that |
spin |
Dec-27-07 02:17 PM |
#38 |
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Or how about this: |
joe_sixpack |
Dec-28-07 05:55 PM |
#100 |
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Only in these times of Monsanto would Founders have thought of that one--!!! |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 02:30 PM |
#40 |
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thanks for the response |
Two Americas |
Dec-27-07 04:41 PM |
#55 |
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Your post is very thoughtful, but I wonder what can be done about the very real |
CTyankee |
Dec-28-07 08:20 AM |
#87 |
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Tricky since ... |
BearSquirrel2 |
Dec-27-07 01:05 AM |
#15 |
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Well, we've had a return to "Wild West America" . . . who does that benefit |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 01:07 AM |
#17 |
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A return? |
ingac70 |
Dec-27-07 01:35 AM |
#21 |
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No -- it hasn't . . . |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 01:38 AM |
#23 |
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No amount of manufacturing standards... |
ingac70 |
Dec-27-07 01:47 AM |
#25 |
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Guns are manufactured safely. |
krispos42 |
Dec-27-07 03:42 AM |
#30 |
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How about safety locks to keep kids from killing themselves . . . ? |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 01:05 PM |
#33 |
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It happens occasionally |
krispos42 |
Dec-27-07 01:39 PM |
#35 |
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Since we have something called "human error" . . . the logical thing to do is to put locks on guns. |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 02:33 PM |
#41 |
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Yea, let the women have there own gun! |
virginia mountainman |
Dec-27-07 05:27 PM |
#57 |
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And they are on there |
krispos42 |
Dec-28-07 02:41 AM |
#81 |
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Sad but true that you don't need a gun to kill an infant which is why your point |
CTyankee |
Dec-28-07 08:25 AM |
#89 |
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The "wild west" was actually the "mild west". |
spin |
Dec-27-07 02:12 PM |
#37 |
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We don't need Hollywood to explain gun violence to us --- it's on our streets --- |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 03:22 PM |
#45 |
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I live in Florida, |
spin |
Dec-27-07 08:40 PM |
#66 |
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Yes, I'm aware that Florida has "concealed" weapons . . . |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 10:12 PM |
#71 |
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An idea I've had for years |
spin |
Dec-28-07 10:01 AM |
#91 |
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All but two states allow licensed individuals to carry a gun for lawful purposes... |
benEzra |
Dec-28-07 10:10 AM |
#92 |
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the problem here, D&P, is that... |
krispos42 |
Dec-27-07 03:59 AM |
#31 |
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dupe |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 04:07 PM |
#49 |
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I am not arguing in any way for the 2nd Amendment. . . it is archaic --- |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 04:15 PM |
#50 |
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what about the 4th and the 5th? |
Two Americas |
Dec-27-07 07:21 PM |
#61 |
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You are offering two points which make no sense . . . |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 08:48 PM |
#69 |
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no |
Two Americas |
Dec-27-07 10:32 PM |
#74 |
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? ? ? |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 10:56 PM |
#77 |
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That Guardian article is very stupid. |
krispos42 |
Dec-28-07 02:28 AM |
#80 |
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not so |
Two Americas |
Dec-27-07 07:08 PM |
#60 |
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Anyone who has spent so much as an hour looking up the relevant history would agree |
ThomWV |
Dec-27-07 02:28 PM |
#39 |
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What is some of that history --- enlighten us -- |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 04:17 PM |
#51 |
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For starters one might look at how the right to keep and bear arms |
hansberrym |
Dec-27-07 08:42 PM |
#67 |
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Therefore, there has ALWAYS been disagreement on what this amendment means --- right??? |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 09:51 PM |
#70 |
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There was also agreement - it was seen as an individual right |
hansberrym |
Dec-28-07 12:20 AM |
#79 |
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Your final point is excellent. I am no Constitutional authority but it seems to me |
CTyankee |
Dec-28-07 08:42 AM |
#90 |
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Try Google |
ThomWV |
Dec-28-07 07:55 AM |
#83 |
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An Obama/Feingold ticket would be excellent. |
Alexander |
Dec-27-07 02:38 PM |
#42 |
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No.. |
virginia mountainman |
Dec-27-07 03:14 PM |
#44 |
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Good for him--! Evidently he doesn't think that every citizen needs a semi-automatic .... |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 04:18 PM |
#52 |
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Too bad.. |
virginia mountainman |
Dec-27-07 04:46 PM |
#56 |
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A HUGE NUMBER of voters want repeating weapons . . . ??? |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 08:28 PM |
#62 |
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Rather, police offers are for gun control --- |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 08:30 PM |
#63 |
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So many straw-men, so little time |
virginia mountainman |
Dec-27-07 11:00 PM |
#78 |
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Yes police are for gun control |
Thothmes |
Dec-28-07 07:30 AM |
#82 |
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Want??? |
virginia mountainman |
Dec-27-07 10:55 PM |
#76 |
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The earliest courts found it more than an "interesting premise"... |
hansberrym |
Dec-27-07 04:35 PM |
#54 |
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Basically, everyone can have a repeating automatic weapon? |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 08:32 PM |
#64 |
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Strawmen are easier targets than Feingold's thesis. |
hansberrym |
Dec-27-07 08:46 PM |
#68 |
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So you're for gun-control -- ??? |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 10:14 PM |
#72 |
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A "repeating automatic weapon"? |
spin |
Dec-27-07 10:21 PM |
#73 |
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This is what you said --- |
defendandprotect |
Dec-28-07 10:22 AM |
#93 |
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"Semi auto" weapons are common |
spin |
Dec-28-07 02:45 PM |
#98 |
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The only way Bush got into the White House was a STEAL -- |
defendandprotect |
Dec-29-07 12:20 AM |
#101 |
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I also agree with you on many points, |
spin |
Dec-29-07 03:27 PM |
#106 |
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We share nightmares . . . |
defendandprotect |
Dec-29-07 10:04 PM |
#108 |
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D&P.... |
krispos42 |
Dec-29-07 10:52 AM |
#104 |
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The Constitution was not written to insure your version of society |
ThomWV |
Dec-28-07 07:57 AM |
#84 |
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The "Wild West" had a version of society . . . which required gun control --- !!! |
defendandprotect |
Dec-28-07 10:23 AM |
#94 |
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feingold is CORRECT...again. |
QuestionAll |
Dec-27-07 05:37 PM |
#58 |
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Feingold is wrong in his premise . . . and any one else's premise that believes |
defendandprotect |
Dec-27-07 08:34 PM |
#65 |
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Not true at all and clearly you do not understand the basic nature of tyrany |
ThomWV |
Dec-28-07 07:58 AM |
#86 |
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They seem to be doing a hell of a job of it in Iraq. |
Wcross |
Dec-28-07 08:24 AM |
#88 |
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Don't give up your guns ... |
avenger64 |
Dec-27-07 06:39 PM |
#59 |
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Gonna throw it out there that the 2nd amendment says nothing about the right to sell arms |
Hippo_Tron |
Dec-27-07 10:38 PM |
#75 |
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Actually it would be much simpler to use legislation to give a definition to "Arms" |
ThomWV |
Dec-28-07 07:58 AM |
#85 |
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Works for me --- let's extend that to all nations, as well---!!! |
defendandprotect |
Dec-28-07 10:25 AM |
#95 |
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Ideas like that make me more glad than ever that I own a milling machine |
slackmaster |
Dec-28-07 10:31 AM |
#96 |
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No more effective than banning the sale of pot, cocaine, and heroin... |
benEzra |
Dec-29-07 09:40 AM |
#102 |
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What specifically causes you to reject Feingold's premise ? |
hansberrym |
Dec-29-07 10:26 AM |
#103 |
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Russ Feingold for President! |
Swamp Rat |
Dec-29-07 03:32 PM |
#107 |
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